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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Those are all good speakers, and there are others as well. Why does one need to be the "best"? More, since none are perfect, how would it even be possible?
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rbbert
Those are all good speakers, and there are others as well. Why does one need to be the "best"? More, since none are perfect, how would it even be possible?
Rob, as I have said many times, there is no best.
Synergy between your electronics, speakers,room, and listening preferences are what matters.
It's all personal preferences. I have listened to your speakers at Robert Lee's shop and just loved them.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
There is definitely no best ice cream either. Pick the flavor that suits you best and go. Everyone needs to consider their room, cabling, music style and most importantly, amplification.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
So true, Mike. I have the D3's and Salon 2's side-by-side in my listening room right now. At low to medium volumes the D3's are best in class due to their low mechanical damping and ribbon tweeter. The subtlety and nuance of jazz vocals and piano are unparalleled. But at medium to high volumes the Salon 2's take flight. Crank up some Santana Soul Sacrifice and the Salon 2's are energized, they will play as loud as you want and never lose their composure or neutrality. They remain a clear window to the music. As you said, many different flavors out there, all special in their own way.
Best,
Ken
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
I think the beauty of the Salons and Revel overall for that matter is the R$D and scale of the parent company. Ability to procure and demand the best engineers, parts and company commitment to show off the flagship audio creations. I believe Revel is owned by same company that owns NAD etc - Harman? Lots of know how, history and dough.
Same concept as other big firms when they commit to excellence and don't build a spec to a high volume best buy customer. I demoed a pair of Marantz Reference MA9s1 mono amps this weekend. They blew me away driving my Magicos. Nothing has come close to my Constellation Centuar with my S5s. From $45k VAC statements amps to Hegel H30 to CJ Pr350, etc. But the Marantz are just as good in most aspects and better in some regards (bass, warmth/tone midrange down).
I think when smaller houses build the no-holds-barred it ends up costing a lot more. I bet the Salon 2 if built by a smaller audio brand, would retail for $35-40k to pay down R&D, tooling/machines, cap ex etc.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MDP
I'd love to see him compare the Salons to the Alexias head to head, and I would be ok whatever his opinion was. I trust JA more than any other reviewer out there.
I asked John last night, he said: "I think the Alexias but they cost more than twice as much as the Revels..."
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Thanks Mike.
I think a magazine like Stereophile should do that some day. Take an award winning speaker from 5-10 yrs back and then have it go head to head with their new favorite !!
That would be fun to read !!
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dpod4
I think the beauty of the Salons and Revel overall for that matter is the R$D and scale of the parent company. Ability to procure and demand the best engineers, parts and company commitment to show off the flagship audio creations. I believe Revel is owned by same company that owns NAD etc - Harman? Lots of know how, history and dough.
Just a point of correction, NAD is not affiliated with Harman. Harmon International currently owns Revel, Mark Levinson (the brand), AKG, JBL, and some other brands. NAD is a part of The Lenbrook Group which also manufactures PSB speakers. Of course your point about Revel's available resources still applies.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
audio.bill
Just a point of correction, NAD is not affiliated with Harman. Harmon International currently owns Revel, Mark Levinson (the brand), AKG, JBL, and some other brands. NAD is a part of The Lenbrook Group which also manufactures PSB speakers. Of course your point about Revel's available resources still applies.
Sorry bad data on my part.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MDP
I think a magazine like Stereophile should do that some day. Take an award winning speaker from 5-10 yrs back and then have it go head to head with their new favorite !!
That is a good idea, Mark.
Of course, it would surprise me if Stereophile would dare to do such a test blind.
Audio-brands which would benefit from magazines having ABX as a standard procedure in their testing are the really great brands.
Many (all?) hi-fi magazines tend to give their readers the impression that gear being a few years old can not compare to brand new gear.
I appreciate that John Atkinson has measured a lot of gear (the measurements in itself).
The measurements have for instance shown that darTZeel CTH-8550's measured performance is disappointing (Atkinson's own word) although its price is a hefty $ 20 300. On the contrary, Cambridge Audio has made gear which measurements are really great although the products' prices are low. I think Cambridge Audio is among the brands who would benefit from ABX-testing.
That audio products (like Revel Ultima Salon2's) offers superb measured performance matters millions of times more than any subjectivist review in my opinion.
As a consequence, Atkinson's measurements (in themselves) of Revel Ultima Salon2 matters more to an objectivist like me than any subjectivistic opinion.
I consider "reviews" in 6moons and other extremely subjectivistic magazines worthless (and most (nearly all?) magazines are of the 6moons-type).
Just my opinions.
Have a nice day, everybody.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PacMan
That is a good idea, Mark.
Of course, it would surprise me if Stereophile would dare to do such a test blind.
Although I would love to see such a comparison, they would lose a few advertisers, for sure.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Face
Although I would love to see such a comparison, they would lose a few advertisers, for sure.
They would, and probably most readers would prefer magazines reviewing gear in the "standard way".
The only hi-fi magazine to my knowledge which has great credibility is Peter Aczel's The Audio Critic, and that magazine is not exactly full of advertisements.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
I appreciate JA's measurements and the time he spends on reporting them. I've really tried to associate measurements with what I hear over the past few years. For instance, I much prefer no-feedback amps and now understand why (even when I had BAT years ago and no idea about that relationship).
That said its interesting to see how JA has changed his interpretation of measurements over the years. re: amps, he nailed Dart 8550 for the things in the D'agostinos that he overlooked (and in fact, the 458s he seemed to come around on).
And honestly, the XA-60.5s which he loves so much don't measure that well from what I see- go figure.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PacMan
They would, and probably most readers would prefer magazines reviewing gear in the "standard way".
The only hi-fi magazine to my knowledge which has great credibility is Peter Aczel's The Audio Critic, and that magazine is not exactly full of advertisements.
Actually, Peter Aczel has no credibility. He does have the distinction AFAIK of being the only reviewer to review his own product (while not revealing that he was the designer and manufacturer).
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rbbert
Actually, Peter Aczel has no credibility. He does have the distinction AFAIK of being the only reviewer to review his own product (while not revealing that he was the designer and manufacturer).
Rob, can you tell me the name of that product, when he reviewed it (and preferably the review itself) and the documentation that it was "his own product" at that time?
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
It's a well known scandal, the speakers were Fourier (or something close). It is the reason The Audio Critic disappeared for 10+ years and never regained its reputation or readership. Sorry I don't have specific links, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were even something in Wikipedia.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MDP
Thanks Mike.
I think a magazine like Stereophile should do that some day. Take an award winning speaker from 5-10 yrs back and then have it go head to head with their new favorite !!
That would be fun to read !!
Why would it be interesting? Maybe for those who believe that audio is the only technology that stands still.
Older gear sounds great and there are many fine systems comprised of such gear. That said the best systems will be comprised by manufacturers using the latest technologies and manufacturing techniques.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PacMan
Rob, can you tell me the name of that product, when he reviewed it (and preferably the review itself) and the documentation that it was "his own product" at that time?
Found a good one; practically "from the horse's mouth"
terrisgolf
Posted September 09 2010 - 08:10 AM
Yes, Fourier Loudspeakers began in Yonkers, New York and was funded by Peter Aczel of the Audio Critic. The Fourier 1 was a splendid speaker that retailed for approximately $1,100.00 each. Cabinets were all hand made, as were the crossovers. Tweeters were usually supplied by JVC. They did not suck power and were quite efficient under normal circumstances. The company with respect to sales and marketing efforts were run by myself, Christopher S. Terris. The company was designed to be a small volume, high profit facility that could respond to the technical advances of loudspeaker development more quickly than the higher volume loudspeaker facility, thus giving the consumer the best possible sound and value per dollar. Sadly, the company just was not competitive during its time and stereo retailers did not receive it warmly. Peter Aczel was also caught in the middle of a serious problem that came to the surface. He was giving the speaker rave reviews in the Audio Critic, but he also was a major shareholder in the company. When word got around it pretty much doomed any possibility of a successful distribution structure within the audio community of retailers. Thus, few were ever sold. In my opinion, although not at the level of an Ohm Acoustics model F, the Fourier 1 was a superb loudspeaker and well worth taking a good look at in the used market.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
still-one
Why would it be interesting? Maybe for those who believe that audio is the only technology that stands still.
Older gear sounds great and there are many fine systems comprised of such gear. That said the best systems will be comprised by manufacturers using the latest technologies and manufacturing techniques.
Jim, I have to disagree. What gigantic revelations in loudspeaker technology have occurred since the Salon 2 has come out ?
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
still-one
Why would it be interesting? Maybe for those who believe that audio is the only technology that stands still.
Older gear sounds great and there are many fine systems comprised of such gear. That said the best systems will be comprised by manufacturers using the latest technologies and manufacturing techniques.
I guess that wouldn't apply to D'Agostino gear currently being manufactured. Through-hole technology circuit boards are hardly the latest in circuit board technology. Take a look at these pictures of Dan's current facility and you will quickly see this place isn't using the latest manufacturing techniques either. Anyone familiar with the concepts of LEAN and 6S will understand when they see the pictures:
A Factory Tour In The Enchanting Foothills Of Arizona - D'Agostino Master Audio Systems
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
still-one
Why would it be interesting?
Because it is an approach very much more likely to be closer to the truth than the usual torrent of words presented by hi-fi-magazine authors.
And if for example a speaker X is much better than a speaker Y according to a hi-fi reviewer Z, then Z should obviously be able come to this conclusion in a blind test, too.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rbbert
Found a good one; practically "from the horse's mouth"
terrisgolf
Posted September 09 2010 - 08:10 AM
Yes, Fourier Loudspeakers began in Yonkers, New York and was funded by Peter Aczel of the Audio Critic. The Fourier 1 was a splendid speaker that retailed for approximately $1,100.00 each. Cabinets were all hand made, as were the crossovers. Tweeters were usually supplied by JVC. They did not suck power and were quite efficient under normal circumstances. The company with respect to sales and marketing efforts were run by myself, Christopher S. Terris. The company was designed to be a small volume, high profit facility that could respond to the technical advances of loudspeaker development more quickly than the higher volume loudspeaker facility, thus giving the consumer the best possible sound and value per dollar. Sadly, the company just was not competitive during its time and stereo retailers did not receive it warmly. Peter Aczel was also caught in the middle of a serious problem that came to the surface. He was giving the speaker rave reviews in the Audio Critic, but he also was a major shareholder in the company. When word got around it pretty much doomed any possibility of a successful distribution structure within the audio community of retailers. Thus, few were ever sold. In my opinion, although not at the level of an Ohm Acoustics model F, the Fourier 1 was a superb loudspeaker and well worth taking a good look at in the used market.
If you can document your claim regarding Peter Aczel, then this information will be highly appreciated (and it will obviously imply a substantial drop in Aczel's credibility).
That being said, I think everybody must be careful in spreading bad rumours.
I therefore encourage you to present bullet-proof evidence of your claim.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PacMan
If you can document your claim regarding Peter Aczel, then this information will be highly appreciated (and it will obviously imply a substantial drop in Aczel's credibility).
That being said, I think everybody must be careful in spreading bad rumours.
I therefore encourage you to present bullet-proof evidence of your claim.
Are you saying you don't believe what Rob posted? What are you looking for? You want a summary court judgement?
How about this link? Is this enough proof for you? Fourier 6 loudspeaker Page 2 | Stereophile.com
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mep
Are you saying you don't believe what Rob posted? What are you looking for? You want a summary court judgement?
Did you actually read what I posted?? It's from one of Aczel's partners in the company! If you want more information, do your own research, but be aware that what I posted is certainly true (unlike you, apparently, I was a subscriber to The Audio Critic from its inception in the '70's and followed this story in real time) and any assertions you make to the contrary are "bad rumors".
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mike
I asked John last night, he said: "I think the Alexias but they cost more than twice as much as the Revels..."
He's already forgotten about the Giyas?
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
mep & Rob: Please calm down. I just want the facts on the table. We probably agree in that people are innocent until proven guilty.
Thanks for the Stereophile link, mep.
I am hoping that you can show the review where Aczel is reviewing his own speakers (because I think it would be of great interest to several of us not aware of this if your claim is correct).
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PacMan
mep & Rob: Please calm down. I just want the facts on the table. We probably agree in that people are innocent until proven guilty.
Thanks for the Stereophile link, mep.
I am hoping that you can show the review where Aczel is reviewing his own speakers.
Did you not read the Stereophile article?? Do you really think this didn't happen??
Please read these words from the Stereophile article I gave you the link to and tell me whether you don't understand them or you just don't believe Stereophile either:
While he was editing and publishing The Audio Critic, Peter Aczel became so disenchanted with the available audiophile loudspeakers that he decided to show the industry how to produce a moderately sized and priced system. The result was the Fourier 1, which aroused extensive critical discussion as to both its sonic merits and the ethics of promoting one's own speaker in one's own magazine. (Aczel favorably reviewed the Fourier 1 in one of the final issues of The Audio Critic before revealing that he was, in fact, one of the owners of Fourier.)
Do you really believe in "The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio" or is that a joke too? If you like Peter Aczel, you would love Julian Hirsch as well.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PacMan
mep & Rob: Please calm down. I just want the facts on the table. We probably agree in that people are innocent until proven guilty.
Thanks for the Stereophile link, mep.
I am hoping that you can show the review where Aczel is reviewing his own speakers.
I doubt it is on-line (it's copyrighted and I don't think Aczel wants to make it too freely available). But the burden is on you, as I said; you are the one doubting it and only you can find the information that will comvince you.
It's possible that Myles may have some more detailed info; IIRC he was getting into the business in a bigger way about that time.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
madfloyd
He's already forgotten about the Giyas?
The question I asked him was "John, if you had to pick between the Salon 2's and Alexia's, which would you pick?" That was what people were wondering before.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mep
(Aczel favorably reviewed the Fourier 1 in one of the final issues of The Audio Critic before revealing that he was, in fact, one of the owners of Fourier.)
I read that sentence by John Atkinson in the link.
I do not see that it should be a problem that I want to see and read Aczel's claimed review.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mep
Do you really believe in "The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio" or is that a joke too?
Maybe that link is your reason for being so upset.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rbbert
But the burden is on you, as I said; you are the one doubting it and only you can find the information that will comvince you.
You came with a claim, so it is obviously your burden to present the evidence (confer "innocent until proven guilty").
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PacMan
You came with a claim, so it is obviously your burden to present the evidence (confer "innocent until proven guilty").
You have already been given enough evidence to show this really happened. It's pointless for anyone to waste any more time on this subject with you. This is the last time I will ever respond to anything you post on this forum or any other forum in the universe.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mep
You have already been given enough evidence to show this really happened.
I like bullet-proof evidence. You obviously do not want to show that review.
And other questions related should be raised as well if the review is you claim. For instance this: Was Aczel's interest in Fourier clear from before?
(this still does not imply that Aczel did not do anything unethical if what you claim is correct).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mep
It's pointless for anyone to waste any more time on this subject with you. This is the last time I will ever respond to anything you post on this forum or any other forum in the universe.
I prefer communicating with people who can prove their categorical claims and who are factual. No further communication with you will therefore be no loss for me.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PacMan
You came with a claim, so it is obviously your burden to present the evidence (confer "innocent until proven guilty").
No, you came with several claims; first, that John Atkinson says (not said, says) that Revel Salon 2 were the best speakers he has ever used in his room. Next, that only The Audio Critic is a review magazine you would believe (despite the fact that they barely even exist anymore, and don't you wonder where Issues #1-15 went??). Last, that you don't believe that Peter Aczel reviewed a speaker made by a company of which he was a principle (not against the law, just unethical, so there is no "guilty" or "innocent" involved). Now the second of these is an opinion so there is no right or wrong possible. The other two are just plain wrong, and you are (and will be) totally incapable of showing them to be true.
BTW, you should add at least your name to your signature.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Stradivari's are for lovers. :)
Boy, did this thread go sideways fast. Pacman, I think its time to drop it and get back to the thread.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
Okay, lets all settle down. This thread is getting out of hand.
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Re: John Atkinson: "The best speakers I've ever used in my room were the Revel Salon2's"
