Gryphon built in DAC's
- Thread starter Ricky64
- Start date
So, I have the Diablo 120 w/optional DAC. It is a glorious DAC, imo. The sound along with the amp, is big, analogue-ish sounding and still very 3D with the sound stage outside of my mains.
FWIW, i used to judge mobile sq audio systems and was a certified IASCA judge…I know I’m banging my own gong, but critically listening and judging against an established format was something I took seriously since it was a competition scene and came with responsibility. I know what you’re thinking :mock: :huh:
I try not to be this way at home, since today’s ‘sessions’ are all about relaxation, stress relief, and taking me back to memory lane and IME, the system has to have the ability to illicit a response from you…. It’s (diablo dac) no tube pre/dac so get that out of your expectations. I dont find the sound to be precise or ultra resolving. I find it occupying so much of the space in the soundstage. I never (yet) compared it to another high end dac in the same setting and not in the vicinity of the Kalliope.
I just recently acquired a Lumin X1 so I will be able to make a comparison between the two. Never my intent to ever do a comparison as such. You can think of it as a mistake in merry-go-rounding. But I am already expecting the X1 DAC section to perform better. And this way, I can switch back and forth easily between the X1 DAC and Gryphon’s internal offerings.
What are you contemplating on?
FWIW, i used to judge mobile sq audio systems and was a certified IASCA judge…I know I’m banging my own gong, but critically listening and judging against an established format was something I took seriously since it was a competition scene and came with responsibility. I know what you’re thinking :mock: :huh:
I try not to be this way at home, since today’s ‘sessions’ are all about relaxation, stress relief, and taking me back to memory lane and IME, the system has to have the ability to illicit a response from you…. It’s (diablo dac) no tube pre/dac so get that out of your expectations. I dont find the sound to be precise or ultra resolving. I find it occupying so much of the space in the soundstage. I never (yet) compared it to another high end dac in the same setting and not in the vicinity of the Kalliope.
I just recently acquired a Lumin X1 so I will be able to make a comparison between the two. Never my intent to ever do a comparison as such. You can think of it as a mistake in merry-go-rounding. But I am already expecting the X1 DAC section to perform better. And this way, I can switch back and forth easily between the X1 DAC and Gryphon’s internal offerings.
What are you contemplating on?
MDP
Behavior Moderator (be nice police!)
I'll be interested in your opinion when you compare the Lumin to the internal DAC of your Diablo. I have a Diablo 300 and an original Lumin A1. I opted to not get the internal DAC for my 300, guessing my Lumin would satisfy my digital needs.
Ricky64
Member
- Thread Author
- #4
Thanks for the reply;
Ultimately, I question whether the Essence preamp/DAC combo will outperform my Mola Mola Tambaqui going directly into my Essence stereo amp. I feel the DAC performance would go down a bit, while the soundstage and dynamics would be improved by the addition of the preamp.
RH
Ultimately, I question whether the Essence preamp/DAC combo will outperform my Mola Mola Tambaqui going directly into my Essence stereo amp. I feel the DAC performance would go down a bit, while the soundstage and dynamics would be improved by the addition of the preamp.
RH
That’s a good question. Keeping it in the family has some pros. But also mixing things up has unforeseen and unexpected/positive results too. I do really appreciate the engineering that Gryphon took to implement their internal DACs. They’re not afterthoughts and I think they stand in their own against others in the price range. I guess I would be in a minority with the internal dac since most folks opted for separates. But some folks have said skip the internal (D300) dac and go forward the Chord Dave.
I like the big-analog sound of the Gryphons. I only used a streamer as my source during critical listening and to be honest, they inject their own tonal characteristics too using the internal DAC. (Went from U1 Mini to U1 and now X1)
A little secret. The reason why I went with the X1 (or considered similar) was, in hopes, that I would someday grow into the amp you have now, Gryphon Essence (or again, something similar). I would go directly from the X1, skip the pre/dac and go into the amp. But I realize that I wouldn’t be able to use my Tv in 2ch when needed. Compromises everywhere. Sigh.
When I get my XRLs, I’ll comment back. Trying not to lose it here while I wait though. Back to work I guess.
I like the big-analog sound of the Gryphons. I only used a streamer as my source during critical listening and to be honest, they inject their own tonal characteristics too using the internal DAC. (Went from U1 Mini to U1 and now X1)
A little secret. The reason why I went with the X1 (or considered similar) was, in hopes, that I would someday grow into the amp you have now, Gryphon Essence (or again, something similar). I would go directly from the X1, skip the pre/dac and go into the amp. But I realize that I wouldn’t be able to use my Tv in 2ch when needed. Compromises everywhere. Sigh.
When I get my XRLs, I’ll comment back. Trying not to lose it here while I wait though. Back to work I guess.
Thanks…saving up my pennies, or given my luck, it’ll be a one of those careless purchases. Made one too many of those in the past…several them in audio ha!
Anyway just a quick update. Still not conclusive comparison since I think the X1 is still burning in.
I’m playing against two options:
X1 streamer to diablo dac via USB - after 168 hours
Really good SQ. Very balanced but after hearing the X1 analog output, I can hear less details and its not as open on the top. But I can hear more midbass with a richer midrange. For what its worth, when I fed my U1 (high quality streamer only) into the Diablo dac, I thought this was a fantastic match - gave me goosebumps.
X1 streamer/Dac to diablo via balanced XLR - after 48 hours explicitly analog output
More detail and more resolving, naturally you’d expect more of everything (queue in the saying, right?) …but seems to have less bass? The voices and instruments seem to ‘float’ more in space and they seem to have more density front to the rear of each element.
The less bass part has me scratching my head…this is the first time in a long time..I went to go adjust the settings on my RELs. I also listened without my subs on and it just didn’t sound ‘right’ - kind of sounded empty:weird:. Also the midrange isn’t there like the with the Diablo dac. Perhaps, the X1 still needs burn in time?
I’m hoping to say in 30+ more days as the X1 breaks in that, it is stupendous! *crossing my fingers*. (I have my U1 up for sale too…gulp!:facepalm: )
Anyway just a quick update. Still not conclusive comparison since I think the X1 is still burning in.
I’m playing against two options:
X1 streamer to diablo dac via USB - after 168 hours
Really good SQ. Very balanced but after hearing the X1 analog output, I can hear less details and its not as open on the top. But I can hear more midbass with a richer midrange. For what its worth, when I fed my U1 (high quality streamer only) into the Diablo dac, I thought this was a fantastic match - gave me goosebumps.
X1 streamer/Dac to diablo via balanced XLR - after 48 hours explicitly analog output
More detail and more resolving, naturally you’d expect more of everything (queue in the saying, right?) …but seems to have less bass? The voices and instruments seem to ‘float’ more in space and they seem to have more density front to the rear of each element.
The less bass part has me scratching my head…this is the first time in a long time..I went to go adjust the settings on my RELs. I also listened without my subs on and it just didn’t sound ‘right’ - kind of sounded empty:weird:. Also the midrange isn’t there like the with the Diablo dac. Perhaps, the X1 still needs burn in time?
I’m hoping to say in 30+ more days as the X1 breaks in that, it is stupendous! *crossing my fingers*. (I have my U1 up for sale too…gulp!:facepalm: )
MDP
Behavior Moderator (be nice police!)
I'm going XLR to XLR. Sounds fantastic! I've heard the different Lumin streamers and still like my A1, I've always enjoyed the sound of the Wolfson DAC Chips.
I believe you. When done right they’re just as sublime. Enjoy it!
I’ve decided to allow the app to do volume control and now that both devices are playing a little nicer with each other, the Lumin is now sounding more like what I’m used to. I’m no longer experiencing lean low frequency response and tonality but now rich midrange with a more open top end.
I’m also using XLR. At some point I will try RCA to input 3 to bypass completely the Diablo preamp but that’s not an immediate need right now. Unity-ish gain/volume will suffice for now as it sounds good to my ears. Im telling yah, Leedh volume processing is awesome. Even at low volume.
Drrsutliff
Member
Currently feeding the DAC module in my Diablo 300 from a Wolf Audio Alpha 3SX via USB. Roon is employed to to access my 13TB of music from a NAS. Previously i used an Ayre QX5/20 and I am finding I appreciate the Gryphon module in many subtle ways. I think the elimination of a power cord and a pair of balanced interconnects has been helpful also. There is a clarity and ease that may be displaying a synergy within the Gryphon system. No regrets in in deciding to part with the Ayre.
I agree as well. The Diablo dac really stands against the others in the range and even higher. Already I can hear what makes the X1 so popular amongst audiophiles - it IS a stellar unit. But with the Diablo dac, fed with a quality source, is an outstanding SQ performer. +1 on keeping a simple setup. I wouldn’t hesitate to purchase up if I were to stay in the Gryphon family and go with one another internal DAC module. Hats off to the Gryphon team!
Sooooo been switching back and forth between the X1 Analog stage and the Diablo DAC. The latter seems to have more “oomph” or just a deeper bass presence. It also sounds like its has quite some depth to it, but very very balanced with the Lumin streamer/sound.
The X1 has a nicer top end and more forward presentation, a little more livelier or just more sparkle. The bass sounds more taut…just pulled more to the tighter end of the spectrum with the leading impact more apparent.
This sucks, cause now you’re actually winning some but losing some! Another observation, the Gryphon seem to be sensitive to input voltage. I would probably pick using the a Lumin streamer into the diablo dac, over using the Lumin X1 analog stage with the output to Low. But when it is increased to Normal, you get this open/resolving but still big soundstage. It presents more than just a loudness boost to my ears.
I want to really try the dedicated AV input now just so I totally eliminate the diablo preamp for a more direct input. Have some Shunyata venom rca’s headed my way to try this.
Either way, talk about optimizing the streaming to a DAC…:snicker:
The X1 has a nicer top end and more forward presentation, a little more livelier or just more sparkle. The bass sounds more taut…just pulled more to the tighter end of the spectrum with the leading impact more apparent.
This sucks, cause now you’re actually winning some but losing some! Another observation, the Gryphon seem to be sensitive to input voltage. I would probably pick using the a Lumin streamer into the diablo dac, over using the Lumin X1 analog stage with the output to Low. But when it is increased to Normal, you get this open/resolving but still big soundstage. It presents more than just a loudness boost to my ears.
I want to really try the dedicated AV input now just so I totally eliminate the diablo preamp for a more direct input. Have some Shunyata venom rca’s headed my way to try this.
Either way, talk about optimizing the streaming to a DAC…:snicker:
Drrsutliff
Member
Understand your curiosity and I am looking forward to your future observations. I will say the Gryphon DAC module required many many hours of use before it fully developed its potential in my system.
Thanks. It’s really is standing on its own. I actually have almost a solid 3 months 24x7 playing music run in time with my Diablo. I’ve been running it in since day 1 and have been really impressed. Credit where it’s due, it’s not just amplifiers they’ve mastered.
Throughout the next 30 days I will keep updating this thread.
Throughout the next 30 days I will keep updating this thread.
TAWW
New member
Just happened to catch this thread while doing some research. I currently use the Essence pre + amp and spent some time with the Essence/Zena DAC module. I concur with other people’s observations - a big, full, powerful sound with great sense of space. Not the airiest top end, but resolving enough and natural. In short, very consistent with the Gryphon house sound. There’s just a hint of the Sabre upper midrange highlighting/sibilance that not everyone hears or is bothered by. My wife and I did pick up on it and as acoustic instrumentalists it did bug us a bit at times, but it’s occasional and very subtle. Overall I found it pretty competitive with my PS Audio DirectStream, though I preferred the PSA overall and kept it. Assuming the Diablo modules sound similar, it’s certainly a solid option in the price range. I’ve heard Lumins, Exasounds, Auralics and similar streamers/DACs under $10k and haven’t found them to be that special, so I think the Gryphon modules would hold up well. I haven’t heard the Tambaqui (it’s on my list) but I have spent a good amount of time with the DAVE and I think most would agree the pecking order would be Tambaqui > DAVE > DirectStream. So I would really not expect the Gryphon modules to be competitive with the Tambaqui, which some consider close to the SOTA.
BTW if you are a Diablo owner looking to upgrade to Essence, be aware the Sonic signature is a bit different from the Diablo and most other Gryphons for that matter - it’s lighter, more neutral and exceedingly transparent - and that you will probably need to get the preamp, or at least a preamp. I really don’t think “cheating” with a DAC volume control will let you hear the amp at its best, particularly since it has low-ish input impedance (20kohms). Short of a few very high end DACs eg MSB Reference, I don’t think most DACs yield as good a result direct to amp vs. a quality preamp.
BTW if you are a Diablo owner looking to upgrade to Essence, be aware the Sonic signature is a bit different from the Diablo and most other Gryphons for that matter - it’s lighter, more neutral and exceedingly transparent - and that you will probably need to get the preamp, or at least a preamp. I really don’t think “cheating” with a DAC volume control will let you hear the amp at its best, particularly since it has low-ish input impedance (20kohms). Short of a few very high end DACs eg MSB Reference, I don’t think most DACs yield as good a result direct to amp vs. a quality preamp.
Ricky64
Member
- Thread Author
- #17
Great response. I am running without a pre amp right now. My Grimm Mu1 has quite a bit of gain. I recently added the Tara Lab 0.8 AES, Digital, and speaker cables. This increased bass response compared to my old cables, and also focused the imaging, allowing me to toe out the speakers significantly more. With these, I'm not feeling (at the moment), that I'm missing out on the pre. However, Phil (the former Gryphon distributor) agreed the the pre added quite a bit to the Essence amp.
Best,
RH
Best,
RH
TAWW
New member
Ricky64 that's quite a formidable digital front-end! I need to get back in touch with Bill @ GTT Audio about the Tambaqui. I hear it has an excellent output stage and volume control algorithm, so I imagine you're getting better results without a pre than a typical DAC. Completely different caliber obviously, but both my DirectStream and RME ADI-2 need some help from a pre to sound their best into all the (solid state) amps that I have.
I'd ask you more about your Grimm and Tambaqui, but that's a subject for another conversation.
I'd ask you more about your Grimm and Tambaqui, but that's a subject for another conversation.
I’ve moved on from my Diablo 120 w DAC module.
Between the Lumin X1 and the built in DAC, I found the X1 to perform better in my previous system which was no surprise. I know the thread maybe is geared towards the bigger standalone gryphon dacs, but in my experience, if you have a Diablo, the modules themselves really standup to their price point.
But there have been so many underground, not so audiophile dac brands that are surfacing that it’s hard to ignore in the price range; gustard and musetec for example.
Between the Lumin X1 and the built in DAC, I found the X1 to perform better in my previous system which was no surprise. I know the thread maybe is geared towards the bigger standalone gryphon dacs, but in my experience, if you have a Diablo, the modules themselves really standup to their price point.
But there have been so many underground, not so audiophile dac brands that are surfacing that it’s hard to ignore in the price range; gustard and musetec for example.
A bit of topic. Joel Chevassus (from the French Audiophile-Magazine) owns the Tambaqui and favourably reviewed the Weiss DAC501 (same internally as DAC502).
He seems to suggest that he would have purchased the Weiss for himself but for his recent acquisition of the Tambaqui.