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Thread: Speakers

  1. #1
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    Speakers

    Call me ignorant, naive, both or even more but I believe when a manufacture makes a full product line like MBL, McIntosh, Bryston, Gryphon, Gold Note, Tidal and upcoming PS Audio that speakers in these camps and others, are voiced to their components making a safe synergy.

    When you go outside all exclusive brand(s), it takes a lot of effort to see how these will pair into ones existing system, not to mention ones that use brand name cabling cable for internal wiring like Wilson with Transparent.

    Or do you think it is it any different by pairing speakers from companies that only make speakers like Magico, Vandersteen, Wilson etc to companies that offer the whole package?







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  2. #2
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    Re: Speakers

    it's your cognitive bias at work. Synergy, as in they play well together (speakers and electronics from same manufacturer) is a given. "voicing" is a feel good term marketing people came up with to appease the uninitiated (non technical types). My short answer is there's no compelling and overriding rationale to using both a particular manufacturers electronics exclusively with their own speakers. IMHO, ARC sounds better with Vandersteen speakers than their own amp specifically developed for them, as an example.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Speakers

    You're assuming that speaker manufacturers who make other audio components as well use their own components when the voice their speakers. It's probably a safe assumption in most cases.

    For the speaker manufacturers that do not make other audio components I'd rely on three things - the associated system they do voice their speakers with, their design philosophies, and the opinions of those who's ears you trust who've heard various pairings.
    Howard

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  4. #4

    Re: Speakers

    I think you are over-thinking this. No matter who designed your speakers, you have to choose the appropriate amp to drive them. Worrying about the internal wiring is a red herring.

    If you have a thing for low power tube amps, it probably wouldn’t be a good idea to buy a pair of low sensitivity sealed speakers with a nominal impedance of 4 ohms that routinely drops to 2 ohms and has some phase angles that makes them a bitch to drive. Even some ported speakers that appear to have fairly high sensitivity can be a bitch to drive if they are rated at a nominal 4 ohms and they too are dipping into the 2 ohm range with tough phase angles.

    So you have some choices. If you already love the amp you own and you’re in the market for a new pair of speakers, you will be forced to purchase speakers that are suited for your amp. The opposite choice is to find a pair of speakers you love and then figure out what type of amp you need to drive the speakers.

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  5. #5
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    Re: Speakers

    It's my impression, and there are notable exceptions, that electronic manufactures typically do not have speakers that compete well with a dedicated speaker manufacturer.

    A couple of example, Krell or McIntosh, both did, or maybe still do, offer speakers but they never got the attention the electronics do. In fact, our former Krell dealer fell out with Krell due to trying to be forced to carry the speakers. Price to performance the Krell speakers were bested by the other brands carried. I know Mac must sell some of their speakers but I've yet to run across anyone using a full Mac set up.

    So, in short, I don't believe the brand synergy for same brand electronics and speakers is always true.

    MBL or Gamut are a couple of exceptions I can think of where a total system makes sense, or Gryphon.

    I personally don't think PSA is making their speakers for any particular PSA product but I may not know all the facts.

    I personally think it's a disservice for a speaker manufacturer to use one amp to voice a speaker. They should use a variety.
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  6. #6

    Re: Speakers

    Perfect example for "active speakers", right here!

  7. #7
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    Re: Speakers

    I heard Mark levinson powering revel salon 2's in a really well treated room so when I got the speakers home and they sounded nothing like the demo was the difference attributed to me not using ML or my room not having much in the way of treatments? I do hear a difference, but I couldn't say if the amp or the room makes a bigger difference, I compared a couple dac's recently that were obviously designed by 2 different pairs of ears.
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  8. #8

    Re: Speakers

    Quote Originally Posted by steve59 View Post
    I heard Mark levinson powering revel salon 2's in a really well treated room so when I got the speakers home and they sounded nothing like the demo was the difference attributed to me not using ML or my room not having much in the way of treatments? I do hear a difference, but I couldn't say if the amp or the room makes a bigger difference, I compared a couple dac's recently that were obviously designed by 2 different pairs of ears.
    So where did the Revel speakers sound better?
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  9. #9
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    Re: Speakers

    Ed,
    I think that speakers with conventional multi-way passive crossovers work well with amps that are complementary irrespective of the amp manufacturer. In short, it doesn’t matter much, choose what you like.

    I do think the benefits of active crossovers and an amp for each driver are very compelling.
    A good example would be the Bryson system. You can do so much more in the digital domain that this type of speaker may be the future. It will be a lot easier for full line electronics and speaker manufacturers to pull this off than a company that just builds speakers.

    Of course this is kind of an anti-audiophile approach as you can’t mix and match components.
    Tom

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  10. #10
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    Re: Speakers

    Interesting you bring this up, I'm sure all speakers sound different in different environments but the Salons seem to be really room dependent.

    Our Levinson/Revel dealer shows out of his home, he had the Salons in a large room with high ceiling and a lot of open area opposed to walls. He had them a good distance apart. They actually sounded really good there with a large defined sound stage. I became familiar with them and heard them with a variety of electronics.

    A friend bought a pair and matched them with Levinson 52 preamp and 53 monoblocks, their flagship gear. In his room I expected them to be spectacular due to the gear but the Salons weren't as impressive as in the other room with lower level Levinson. The room was smaller and wood floors. He eventually got them sounding pretty good but the room was still limiting. One thing that helped was he added one of the Ultima subs, no longer made, and used the DSP.

    Maybe the Salons just need a lot of room to dance in.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve59 View Post
    I heard Mark levinson powering revel salon 2's in a really well treated room so when I got the speakers home and they sounded nothing like the demo was the difference attributed to me not using ML or my room not having much in the way of treatments? I do hear a difference, but I couldn't say if the amp or the room makes a bigger difference, I compared a couple dac's recently that were obviously designed by 2 different pairs of ears.
    Aurender ACS10 w/AQ Diamond,
    Mark Levinson #526 & 532h, JBL 4367's
    Clearaudio Performance DC w/Maestro cart
    All Clarus Crimson cabling, AC to binding post. Surgex
    HT: Marantz AV8003, Linn 5125, JBL SAM3ha, Revel s30,
    SVS PC13 Ultra
    Transparent, Analysis Plus & Tributaries. PS Audio filtering
    Sony XBR-75X940D & BDP

  11. #11
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    Re: Speakers

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    So where did the Revel speakers sound better?
    As always the speakers sounded like the real thing at the demo and once I got them home, while they did show some pedigree they didn't have the power they needed for the bass they were producing with the big ML monoblocks. I've read revel uses ML when testing their products.
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  12. #12
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    Re: Speakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    Interesting you bring this up, I'm sure all speakers sound different in different environments but the Salons seem to be really room dependent.

    Our Levinson/Revel dealer shows out of his home, he had the Salons in a large room with high ceiling and a lot of open area opposed to walls. He had them a good distance apart. They actually sounded really good there with a large defined sound stage. I became familiar with them and heard them with a variety of electronics.

    A friend bought a pair and matched them with Levinson 52 preamp and 53 monoblocks, their flagship gear. In his room I expected them to be spectacular due to the gear but the Salons weren't as impressive as in the other room with lower level Levinson. The room was smaller and wood floors. He eventually got them sounding pretty good but the room was still limiting. One thing that helped was he added one of the Ultima subs, no longer made, and used the DSP.

    Maybe the Salons just need a lot of room to dance in.


    I emailed revel support asking how much power they recommended for the speakers and I got a 2 word reply. "500 watts" I can say my h360 is rated at 250/425 wpc and it wasn't enough. my listening rooms 17x27x7
    Meridian dsp8000 se upgrade, meridian 218 zone controller, VA Beethovens, , Hegel h360, rega jupiter, roon nucleus, revox tuner.

  13. #13
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    Re: Speakers

    Quote Originally Posted by steve59 View Post
    I emailed revel support asking how much power they recommended for the speakers and I got a 2 word reply. "500 watts" I can say my h360 is rated at 250/425 wpc and it wasn't enough. my listening rooms 17x27x7
    I talked to the designer and he said “start with 750 watts/channel and go from there.”


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  14. #14
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    Re: Speakers

    Quote Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
    It will be a lot easier for full line electronics and speaker manufacturers to pull this off than a company that just builds speakers.
    15-20yrs ago yes.
    Today, no. Not with actual knowledge of electro-acoustics.

    Quote Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
    Of course this is kind of an anti-audiophile approach as you can’t mix and match components.
    Yep.
    Not to mention having variable directivity characteristics and subsequent adaptability to room acoustics and program material, not possible with passive....and getting totally blank stares as to the consequences of what that means.
    For living rooms, big and small.

    cheers,

    AJ

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