Electrical Foundation Revisit Electrical Foundation Revisit - Page 2
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  1. #11
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    Re: Electrical Foundation Revisit

    I have seen failed CB burned out as such in the field. I hate aluminum wire. Even after torquing it can loosen over time. Especially under heat and load. I always re-torque the mains on any panel I touch that has aluminum mains. I also go through every CB, neutral and ground screw in any panel I touch. I always find a couple that are loose.
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  2. #12
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    Re: Electrical Foundation Revisit

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    I have seen failed CB burned out as such in the field. I hate aluminum wire. Even after torquing it can loosen over time. Especially under heat and load. I always re-torque the mains on any panel I touch that has aluminum mains. I also go through every CB, neutral and ground screw in any panel I touch. I always find a couple that are loose.
    After my mains panel failure I have become much more vigilant about checking everything yearly. Like you, I do find loose branch wiring occasionally.
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  3. #13
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    Re: Electrical Foundation Revisit

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    Torque values are available for all lugs and breakers in electrical panels. The code says you "shall" install per the manufacturer's specifications. Hence, you shall torque.
    Except you don't follow this practice:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    I torque my mains and meter sockets. We torque and draw a line across every torqued lug on commercial jobs.

    I dont torque my small circuit breakers any more. I have landed enough branch circuits to know what is correct. But hey, I have landed thousands of breakers. And, I have stripped out the threads not using a torque wrench.
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  4. #14
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    Re: Electrical Foundation Revisit

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    I don't agree. Your correct on its main purpose. But I believe a poor ground can be heard. I believe you will see voltage swings if its not installed. Not installed is the same to me as old and degraded with hundreds of ohms of resistance to earth.
    KingRex, I agree with the disagree, a good ground is clearly evident in sound and the opposite holds true.

    Those voltage swings were very apparent after the fact, and while there are ways to mask over this, in the end, it’s a bandaid when you go back through things and find an issue as I did.





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  5. #15
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    Re: Electrical Foundation Revisit

    The power company often uses aluminum wire to our homes. But and it's a big but, they use special connectors, special tools and training. And the aluminum wire that they now use is very different from the aluminum wire in home a half century ago.

  6. #16
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    Re: Electrical Foundation Revisit

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Does the NEC require that all connections inside of power panels be torqued?
    from the other thread:
    As to tightening torque for connectors and terminals. NEC Article 110.14(D) is about torque, some products have a recommended value or range while others have a proscribed value or range. But I would guess with most residential electricians, if you hide their torque wrench they might not notice it for a month.
    and
    Just noticed the NEC Article 110.14(D) was first added in NEC2017. There was no such torque rule before then.

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  8. #17
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    Re: Electrical Foundation Revisit

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    I don't agree. Your correct on its main purpose. But I believe a poor ground can be heard. I believe you will see voltage swings if its not installed. Not installed is the same to me as old and degraded with hundreds of ohms of resistance to earth.
    Lots of “I believe” in your post.
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  9. #18
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    Re: Electrical Foundation Revisit

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Lots of “I believe” in your post.
    "I Believe" because I have never done true blind test or critical listening test before and after grounding. I have not connected and disconnected grounds during playback to test how audible a good ground is. And, its hard for me to sit in front of an unknown, or shall I say, not my system and really hear what the changes due to modifications to the power supply really do. I have to rely on the owners perspective to know the impact.

    I have put a Fluke meter inside a few panels specifically measuring for micro voltage difference based upon the grounding, bonding torquing etc. I have seen voltages stabilize and micro voltage between grounds and neutral significantly reduced by introducing proper grounding. I have reduced almost a half volt of differential between the neutral on one side of the buss and the other by lacing the neutrals together with #4 copper.

    But I have to admit, for me, I have not truly validated the reduction of voltage swings and voltage differentials is audible. Even in Eds system. Is it the voltage that is stabilized causing the heat from his amps to drop by 5 or so degrees. Is the humming when standing in front of his speakers reduced from heard 8 feet away to barely audible with your ear to it the grounding? Or, Is it the ancillary gear from Addpower, Environmental Potential, Nordost etc that are now able to do there job the way they were intended. I don't really know. Every one of our stereo and the environments they are in is individual. The results of optimizing your audio power supply will probably differ from system to system. I still see nothing wrong with making sure you electrical distribution is the best it can be. I don't think a fancy power cord is going to repair other issues ahead of it. And lord knows we spend an awful lot of money on power cords.
    First Sound Mark3SI preamp, Altec Lansing 1570B modded by Transition Audio Design and myself, Mojo Audio CAT Server running Win Server 2016 AO HQ and Roon, Mojo Audio Mystic 3 DAC, Linear Solution Ethernet Switch, Custom TT with Vertere Arm, Denon 103R Midas with sapphire cantilever line contact diamond, Allnic H1201 phono pre, Pure Audio Project Trio 10 with performance Solen air core chokes and Mundord Supreme oil caps, Power via 10 awg OFC cord from panel to custom distribution strip, Inakustik speaker and interconnect cables, Genesis Interconnect.

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