Thread: What's surprised you gear or cable wise?

OK guys - in your experience in this hobby, what's one of the biggest surprises you've had about a piece of gear or cable you've listened to - either good or bad?

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

"a piece of hear"....

If I'm inferring correctly, you're referring to a piece of "gear"....😉
[/INDENT]

Doh!!!

Yes...thank you.

What always comes to mind for me with this type of question is my Aurender. I used a few streamers, up to $5k and not happy, I tried the ACS10 and was amazed, just what I wanted to hear.

Then I read Puma Cat's post and found we have similar experiences. The P3 was my first higher end table. Seems funny thinking of a P3 as high end today but at the time it was an ear opener. I've also found power products to provide a surprising nice improvement. I remember I borrowed a power conditioner the guy talked me into trying a power cord, I think I grabbed it just to appease him. Well I ended up bringing the conditioner back not liking what it did but bought a power cord for every piece in my system that allowed for one. I think the conditioner just couldn't feed my Krell amp. It took me awhile to find a conditioner that worked for me.

Originally Posted by JCS123

It was the first time I walked into Audio Dimensions in Royal Oak, MI and heard Maggies playing. I believe it was the 3.6r's, a pair of which I ended up buying and still proudly own. I kept looking around the room trying to figure out exactly where the sound was coming from. What I knew for sure was that I loved that sound, and I've been hooked ever since.

Another "Ah-ha" moment was in the same store, when Harry played a Holly Cole CD on the tiny Arcam Solo Mini feeding the Magnepan "Mini Maggies". Insanely good for the size and price.

A third would be how amazing music on Blu-rays sounded through a Marantz AVR and Emotiva power amp. Shocking, really.

Finally, the time as a teenager that I heard Bose 901's, which at that moment I thought would be my end-game. Things have changed. I have a feeling that they're going to change again if I make it to the Florida Audio Expo in February and hear the Clarisys speakers.

I've had several such moments. I love Holy Cole also having seen her in concert.

I've hear more speakers than I can count, and I still remember the first time I heard really good horn speakers - I knew from that instant good horns are for me.

For me, when I sat in Mike's upstairs two channel room and went, this is live. The sound was so accurate. It all just worked.

I have had a few moments. I grew up around gear so had a reference for decent sound since I was 5 or 6. Also hung out at our local HE Store Soundex a lot.

The first was when I bought a Marantz CD-63SE MKII and an Audio Alchemy DDE V1.1 DAC and joined it to my Hafler 945-9180 Dynaudio system. CDs sounded decent.

Another was when I bought my Odyssey Stratos and got a pair of Groneberg Cables. Klauss touted them as on the Bass side. I used them to tame a bright system and realized you can use ICs as Tone Controlls and that all cables do not sound the same.

Moving my equipment rack to a side wall leaving only amps on platforms between the speakers.

Fuses did nothing.
Software in digital playback really matters.


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Going way back . . .

I was shocked that speaker cables made a difference - oh those original Monster cables.

Then it was damn Mod Squad Tiptoes . . . .

After that I decided that "Everything Makes a Difference" -- although most are NOT better.

I wasn't a true believer until around 2002/03. Had an Esoteric DV50S and bought a Shunyata King Cobra (later known as a version V1) and had two audio buddies over for a listen between the stock C15 and the KC. I played a track with the stock cord & then changed it to the KC. It literally took 15 seconds of listening before our jaws hit the floor. The air between instruments, tonality, dynamics, etc., was the eye opener.

That cable, when horizontal and then placed vertical made a sound like there were BB's inside -- it was actually some sort of hardened ferrite powder/balls (I used to know the name for it - but hey; that was 20 years ago).

Anyways, IMO that is the cable that made my friends & I a true believer & put Caelin & Shunyata Research on the power cord map.

Best to all,

Bob

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

That material was Shunyata's proprietary Zr-Ca material. It was developed based on the e-field dissipation properties of rochelle salts.

I figured you'd know what it was, PC

Best to all,

Bob

Good/great surprises?

Muon Pro - earns THE top spot
Snake River cables (mix thereof)
Pro Series ANK 5.1 Signature DAC with Quad C cores
Placing my Rythmik f25's up on spiked Target MR Maximum Rigidity Speaker stands
Investing in speaker placement tools/speaker placement


Negative surprises?
Shunyata Alpha IC
Pangea PC's

Tom

back in 2012-2013 i had purchased a few Lp's with female vocals where i heard distortion in some vocal spots very noticeable. in 2 cases i returned the pressings as defective, were sent another, they had the issue too. i was very confused. but then moved on......

in 2012 i had upgraded my Evolution Acoustics MM3 speakers to twin tower MM7 speakers. the bass towers were -3db at 7hz and -6db at 3hz. they sounded great.

in early 2013 i decided to buy a Herzan TS-140 active isolation device for under my Wave Kinetics NVS turntable.

eventually i happened to play one of these female vocal tracks and i was very surprised that the distortion was gone. i had not previously connected the events, but my MM7 bass towers 6 feet from my NVS turntable had added enough bass energy to change the equation for proper isolation for it. the standard 'shaker' isolation platform for the NVS was not capable enough for my 'extreme' situation.

i was maybe the first guy (or one of the first) using an active device, now it's much more common. and my -5- current Taiko 'Tana Systems' are quite more advanced than the naked Herzan units were/are.

so if you notice an upper bass distortion in the grooves, careful where you point the finger.

1. Tannoy speakers with Dual Concentric drivers.
Early 2000s I was transitioning from headphones to dipping my toes into speaker waters, and most of the speakers I'd heard to that point had very poor "coherence" (for lack of a better term), where I found it hard to enjoy music. When I first heard these, it was like everything snapped into focus. I wanted to throw my new Polk LSi15 in the trash lol. I still run Tannoys today. Probably always will. I like both tulip and pepperpot driver variants - each has its pros and cons!

2. Koetsu cartridges.
Circa 2007, I first noticed these in the MusicDirect catalog at insane prices. They were pretty little boxes, but the prices were too ludicrous to be true. No WAY that price is justified, I thought. Then I got a chance to borrow a crusty old Onyx (vintage 80s/90s model) - why not? It completely blew away my new Ortofon Windfeld MC. I was gobsmacked. Pure, unfiltered music magic. It was like the Tannoy speaker thing all over again - like I was hearing all my music again for the first time. I was hooked. Now my little Koetsu collection is like family, and will not be sold. RIP Fumihiko Sugano.

3. Stax Headphones w/ T2 amplifier
After various sessions with SRM-007 left me unimpressed, I first heard SRM-009 with a DIY T2 amp (quite a beast) circa 2014, and it was quite clearly the pinnacle of headphone achievement. It still is IMO, though others have closed the gap and now compete as alternative flavors. The DIY T2 amp absolutely clobbers the (to be sure, excellent) Blue Hawaii SE in direct comparison.

4. VAC Master 300 Monoblocks
I didn't expect these to be a significant upgrade over my VAC 200iQ monos. My speakers are 96dB efficient! But I agreed to give them a listen at home - because that would cost me nothing, right (lol)? They were a freaking HUGE upgrade. Several months later and I STILL can't believe what I'm hearing. Absolutely transformative effects. Single most significant component upgrade in my history. The only amp I've heard so far that does EVERYTHING right and NOTHING wrong (other than price haha)

Originally Posted by mulveling

1. Tannoy speakers with Dual Concentric drivers.
Early 2000s I was transitioning from headphones to dipping my toes into speaker waters, and most of the speakers I'd heard to that point had very poor "coherence" (for lack of a better term), where I found it hard to enjoy music. When I first heard these, it was like everything snapped into focus. I wanted to throw my new Polk LSi15 in the trash lol. I still run Tannoys today. Probably always will. I like both tulip and pepperpot driver variants - each has its pros and cons!

2. Koetsu cartridges.
Circa 2007, I first noticed these in the MusicDirect catalog at insane prices. They were pretty little boxes, but the prices were too ludicrous to be true. No WAY that price is justified, I thought. Then I got a chance to borrow a crusty old Onyx (vintage 80s/90s model) - why not? It completely blew away my new Ortofon Windfeld MC. I was gobsmacked. Pure, unfiltered music magic. It was like the Tannoy speaker thing all over again - like I was hearing all my music again for the first time. I was hooked. Now my little Koetsu collection is like family, and will not be sold. RIP Fumihiko Sugano.

3. Stax Headphones w/ T2 amplifier
After various sessions with SRM-007 left me unimpressed, I first heard SRM-009 with a DIY T2 amp (quite a beast) circa 2014, and it was quite clearly the pinnacle of headphone achievement. It still is IMO, though others have closed the gap and now compete as alternative flavors. The DIY T2 amp absolutely clobbers the (to be sure, excellent) Blue Hawaii SE in direct comparison.

4. VAC Master 300 Monoblocks
I didn't expect these to be a significant upgrade over my VAC 200iQ monos. My speakers are 96dB efficient! But I agreed to give them a listen at home - because that would cost me nothing, right (lol)? They were a freaking HUGE upgrade. Several months later and I STILL can't believe what I'm hearing. Absolutely transformative effects. Single most significant component upgrade in my history. The only amp I've heard so far that does EVERYTHING right and NOTHING wrong (other than price haha)

I've always wondered how their larger models would compare against my Klipsh La Scala's in terms of being able to 1) sound effortless at loud volume and have no compression and 2) daily fill up a very larger room like I have.

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

I've always wondered how their larger models would compare against my Klipsh La Scala's in terms of being able to 1) sound effortless at loud volume and have no compression and 2) daily fill up a very larger room like I have.

The new Fyne Vintage 15s should do it

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

OK guys - in your experience in this hobby, what's one of the biggest surprises you've had about a piece of gear or cable you've listened to - either good or bad?

Two surprises for me, both very good;

Westminster Labs Rei monoblock amps caused me to rethink my preconceived notions that Class A amps had to be enormous and run hot to sound exceptional.

And the PSI Audio AVAA active bass traps really work without dominating the landscape.

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

I've always wondered how their larger models would compare against my Klipsh La Scala's in terms of being able to 1) sound effortless at loud volume and have no compression and 2) daily fill up a very larger room like I have.

If you want to compete with 105dB efficiency of LaScalas, then I imagine you've got to fight horns with horns. That would mean the Tannoy Westminster model, which is the only horn loaded Tannoy (at least until you go way back in time). LaScalas still win efficiency at 105 dB vs 99, but Westminsters kill LaScalas in bass extension (18 Hz !!). Not sure if you're using a sub in your setup? But that's the classic tradeoff - bass extension versus efficiency.

I have 15" Canterbury GR - same driver as Westminster, but in a more traditional / simple vented box. They're VERY effortless, dynamic, and room filling for a traditional box speaker - but I image it will still be a different feel than what you're used to with horns. Same deal with the Fyne Vintage 15, which is structured like Canterbury with some minor differences in porting and driver materials.

Originally Posted by mulveling

If you want to compete with 105dB efficiency of LaScalas, then I imagine you've got to fight horns with horns. That would mean the Tannoy Westminster model, which is the only horn loaded Tannoy (at least until you go way back in time). LaScalas still win efficiency at 105 dB vs 99, but Westminsters kill LaScalas in bass extension (18 Hz !!). Not sure if you're using a sub in your setup? But that's the classic tradeoff - bass extension versus efficiency.

I have 15" Canterbury GR - same driver as Westminster, but in a more traditional / simple vented box. They're VERY effortless, dynamic, and room filling for a traditional box speaker - but I image it will still be a different feel than what you're used to with horns. Same deal with the Fyne Vintage 15, which is structured like Canterbury with some minor differences in porting and driver materials.

Thanks for the thoughts and I agree with what you've said. Yes I am running a 16" sub as the La Scala's as you mentioned drop like a rock below 50-60hz.

I've had my eye on Tannoy, but wonder if there will be a change since they recently moved the top of the line speakers over to China vs Scotland. I'm guessing yours are made in Scotland?

I agree there is next to nothing that will touch the efficiency of the La Scala's, so I would consider anything in the mid-90's on up for efficiency as that would still be really efficient.

Thanks again.

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

Thanks for the thoughts and I agree with what you've said. Yes I am running a 16" sub as the La Scala's as you mentioned drop like a rock below 50-60hz.

I've had my eye on Tannoy, but wonder if there will be a change since they recently moved the top of the line speakers over to China vs Scotland. I'm guessing yours are made in Scotland?

I agree there is next to nothing that will touch the efficiency of the La Scala's, so I would consider anything in the mid-90's on up for efficiency as that would still be really efficient.

Thanks again.

Yes, mine are from 2017 and presumably made in Scotland. We're still basically in the dark about where Tannoy Prestige is actually made today - probably a bit here, a bit there. In a Facebook Group, someone posted photos of Prestige driver parts in boxes marked from China (not 100% verifiable, of course). BUT to their credit, they looked like the normal high quality, using the usual: paper/pulp cone, treated textile surrounds, pepperpot phase plug, large alnico magnet. Fyne is made in Scotland but still avoids using such costly materials? I've been a fan of Tannoy for 20 years and communication with & from Tannoy has ALWAYS been exceedingly poor, sadly

Many things have been awesome, but surprises include the Chord Professional, the DSAudio Grandmaster EX, various grounding things (Chord LineAray, CAD, Nordost QKore (multiple) and the impact of upgrading the breaker box serving my room (separate ground field), moving to 20 amp dedicated lines, and the list goes on. Things that I was expecting to be great and were in fact, great, include my TAD R-1 MK IIs, DartZeel Monoblocks and pre and REL six pack. Basically, virtually all of it amazes me every day.

Originally Posted by stereogeek

I have already posted about which components were very surprising to me. However, my biggest surprise in this crazy hobby was going from big amps and inefficient speakers to small amps and high efficiency speakers. It's a whole different type of sound and I like it. Cheers all.

I agree. My current speakers are about 105db and love it.

Originally Posted by stereogeek

What's weird is you would think that the ability to get loud would be a high efficiency speaker's best feature, but it's not. The ability to use smaller (and quite frequently, better sounding) amplifiers and the smaller movements of the drivers which result in lower distortion is what I believe to be key advantages. Paul Klipsch said, "what this country needs is a good 5-watt amplifier" (or something like that).

Well said. Sometimes I listen at crazy high levels. And the absolute total lack of any distortion from my La Scala's, and how totally compression-free vocals sound make me want to hug the speakers sometimes.

My only issue is their slight lack of bass. I actually think the BEST sound I have gotten out of them to date was with a 20 watt Luxman tube amp. I miss that sound.

Great listening experiences:
The first time I heard Ohm F's properly setup. Amazing. I still have a pair and think MBL 101E's would be my desert island speaker.
The first time I heard Klipschorns and McIntosh MC 30 tube amps. Didn't think they could sound as good as they did. Very dynamic.
The first time I heard Quad Electrostatics.

Surprises:
Speaker cables made a big difference in clarity and soundstage.
XLR interconnects didn't make any difference - couldn't identify $$$$ vs $ when a friend swapped them out randomly.
USB cables and isolators made a difference when I didn't think they should.
Fuses made zero difference.
An optical break prior to my streamer made a big difference in clarity. Changes upstream of that made zero difference.
Shunyata power cables made a big difference
My homemade grounding system made as much difference as the power cables.

Originally Posted by W9TR

USB cables and isolators made a difference when I didn't think they should.
.

This is a big one. I was pretty shocked when I tested 15 different cheap switches (I did a series of videos on this) and found a significant sound difference between them.

Same with USB cables. If you believe the forum fools they say it's all 1's and 0's and can't make a difference. Glad I educated myself (with the help of Puma Cat) and decided to actually try listening with my own ears.

My friend has Tannoy, I forget the model. I was shocked at the bass response and it seems they do hold together very well at high volume. I think his are one of the high level 10 inch models.

Another speaker that was absolutely crystal clear at very high volume are Zu Audio. Also a speaker that requires a sub.

Originally Posted by stereogeek

What's weird is you would think that the ability to get loud would be a high efficiency speaker's best feature, but it's not. The ability to use smaller (and quite frequently, better sounding) amplifiers and the smaller movements of the drivers which result in lower distortion is what I believe to be key advantages. Paul Klipsch said, "what this country needs is a good 5-watt amplifier" (or something like that).

But also, it's the ability to play loud
I now run VAC Master 300 monoblocks on my 96 dB/Watt Canterbury, play loud, and love it. There's a perception of limitless dynamics and very much a "you are there, and the music is alive" feel.

Two big surprises for me that stand out the most over the years...

1) The big, ugly, huge dual 15" open baffle subwoofers I designed and built 20+ years ago. Flat to 16 Hz on their own, EQ only used to tame down a slight peak around 60 Hz. The most natural, most realistic, most dynamic bass you could ever imagine. To this day, STILL the best sounding subwoofers I've ever heard at any price point by any manufacturer.

2) These beautiful Odyssey Audio Stratus monoblock amps. At nearly half the power of the stereo Emotiva amp that they replaced, these amps sound stronger and cleaner, and they make my Maggies and subs sound much larger and more powerful. Imaging and sound staging is much better as well.

Originally Posted by Dizzie

Moving my equipment rack to a side wall leaving only amps on platforms between the speakers.

I forgot to add I did not feel there was any signal degradation using 6.5M high quality balanced (XLR) interconnects.

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

I heard those at AXPONA in Gary Leeds's room and they were superb. Using the big TOTL Lampizator DAC, the Horizon, too.

If memory serves, the Westminster Labs Rei monos were designed by Angus Leung, who also happens to work with Lumin, and if my hypothesis is correct, also designed Lumin's amp, named...AMP.



Given how good the Reis sounded, I'd love to hear AMP sometime, too.

Yes, Westminster Lab is Angus Leung's company. The AMP Angus designed for Lumin is Class AB, the Westminster Lab Rei is Class A. Both small but mighty.

Originally Posted by atmasphere

I don't think I would want to go back from having easy to drive speakers. Mine are 98dB, 16 Ohms and flat to 20Hz, using field coil drivers (Classic Audio Loudspeakers T3). When I heard the first version back in the late 1990s, I bought them right away and have yet to hear anything surpass them.

The next eye opener for me was the use of a Distributed Bass Array. The first person to seriously offer any such thing to high end audio was Duke LeJeurne of Audiokinesis, with a sub called the Swarm. Finally a solution for that pesky loss of bass at the listening chair, while the rear of the room would be just fine. So I use a pair of the Swarm subs in my system to break up standing waves. Really effective. If I had it to do over, I'd run four of his subs and the main speakers would be a bit smaller since no need to plumb the bottom octave, but I really don't want to give up that efficiency of the mains. Easy enough, but I already have the best speakers I've heard so I don't expect to make a move.

Finally class D offered something to me sonically a few years back that caused me to sit up and pay attention. I'd thought for years it was a sort of rising star in high end audio, at this point I realized that as a manufacturer, if we didn't get a handle on it we'd get left behind. From a designer's point of view, class D offers some solutions that are very difficult if not downright impossible with conventional amps: getting a really good Gain Bandwidth Product value, something essential if you want to apply feedback to an amplifier properly. We had avoided feedback in our OTLs precisely for this reason; if you don't have enough GBP in your design, the result is usually distortion rising with frequency. If distortion does not rise with frequency, the amp stands a much better chance of sounding like real music. Finally there's something out there that can give you the smoothness thru the mids and highs that you expect of an excellent tube amp without any tradeoffs except overload (which is otherwise instantaneous). Since I'm a tube aficionado, to me this also means that class D is able to take on A and AB solid state amps and still come out on top. The result of that in my own system has been great; no more tube worries, no heat, smaller size and best of all, better sound.

Flat to 20hz

Would love to see some data on these flat to 20hz transducers, heck any data period to back any of your claims Ralph , seeing in 25 yrs not one editorial has ever tested any of your products for real bench data to back up your claims ..


BTW the Bass array was around way before Duke , some of us were dumb enuff to try 4ch back when it was thought to be the way , guess how the subs were arranged


So feel free to post up some actual bench measurements of these greatest of all time audio gear ..!



Regards

I was not impressed by the Westminster amp audition at Axpona. Especially when I put on some music that wasn't for going to sleep. I'm familiar with the Horizon. I thought Westminster may just not be a good match with VS. Another issue could have been if they were using the Horizon as preamp, in my opinion it's weak in that area.

I would have loved not ending up with a 100 lb amp again but that's where my ears are.

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

I was not impressed by the Westminster amp audition at Axpona. Especially when I put on some music that wasn't for going to sleep. I'm familiar with the Horizon. I thought Westminster may just not be a good match with VS. Another issue could have been if they were using the Horizon as preamp, in my opinion it's weak in that area.

I would have loved not ending up with a 100 lb amp again but that's where my ears are.

It’s too sleepy sounding?


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No, the music they played in that room was for going to sleep.

The sound of the system didn't have any punch or liveliness to it. Well, that would indicate sort of sleepy. Hmmm, it didn't seem slow more like a lack of transient response (balls). That system didn't do drums well. I played a small portion of a song that was pretty energetic before they changed it back to something slow. I could be wrong but I got the impression they knew something was off.

Enough people like the amps so I'm inclined to believe it was just not a good demo and hopefully I'll get a chance to hear them again.

I thought for a newcomer Class A amp the Infigo was much better based on my auditions.

Originally Posted by Mike

It’s too sleepy sounding?


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