What is your reference?

**Mike** · October 22, 2016, 10:55 AM

You're making changes to your system. You're evaluating new speakers. You're contemplating a switch to tube amps or solid state. You're thinking a new DAC will get you closer. Cables...oh yeah...those too.

When you're considering a change, what are you using as your point of reference? A friends system? A dealers system? An amalgamation of all the live concerts you've heard? Can you even remember?

For me, I played sax for over 30 years. I played in 20+ piece Big Bands and I played in small jazz ensembles. I know what a terrific percussion section sounds like. I know what 5 trumpets and trombones blowing behind your head sounds like.

What about you? What's your reference?

**the professor** · October 22, 2016, 11:13 AM

Really good question. I'm not so sure this is a reference but . . . .

Mine I guess is the "toe tap" method. Ultimately, does it make me tap my toe more. Does it convey the emotion of the music. Does the music grab you.

**a.wayne** · October 22, 2016, 11:32 AM

Live acoustic instruments , Symphony orchestras, unamplified live jazz ensembles, my own studio recordings ...

And since no hi fi system can sounds as real , ear/Brain Compromise

**bonzo** · October 22, 2016, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Live acoustic instruments , Symphony orchestras, unamplified live jazz ensembles, my own studio recordings ...

And since no hi fi system can sounds as real , ear/Brain Compromise

Exactly this. The problem is many audiophiles have their reference set to their own system (due to listening to it regularly). So, every change to that system becomes an improvement, when it is not really significant. Ideally, one should be going to a lot of live concerts, not have a speaker (hey I don't have one right now

), and then fly around to check whose system sounds closest to the live. Well, that's how I ended up, so that is my reference to set a reference system

**Dpod4** · October 22, 2016, 01:03 PM

My system when I was 15 pair of Maggie's driven by modified hafler amp connected to nad preamp with empire 698 table. Rickie Lee Jones "Pirates" playing. Rickie was in the room with me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

**mep** · October 22, 2016, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by Dpod4

My system when I was 15 pair of Maggie's driven by modified hafler amp connected to nad preamp with empire 698 table. Rickie Lee Jones "Pirates" playing. Rickie was in the room with me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

A digital version of RLJ was in the room with you.

**Melbguy1** · October 22, 2016, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

For me, I played sax for over 30 years. I played in 20+ piece Big Bands and I played in small jazz ensembles. I know what a terrific percussion section sounds like. I know what 5 trumpets and trombones blowing behind your head sounds like.

What about you? What's your reference?

After live recitals, my friend's Magico S7/Vitus Signature/MP series/Kronos Reference/Stillpoints/Telos system. Hearing his system for the first time recently was eye opening!

**Kuoppis** · October 22, 2016, 02:38 PM

In my case, what I hear or do not hear in various systems, what I do enjoy about them and definitely the toe tapping factor. A system can be superb in some respect, but if the music does not engage me I rather do something else.

Criteria that get my toes tapping are typically definition, clarity, dynamics, extension on both ends, transparent highs and bass with punch and articulation, as well as authenticity of sound. Off-putters are sharpness, flatness and lack of speed (slow rise time).

I also do play mostly electric guitar and searched 15 years until I found my sound. Spending a lots of time in the opera as a kid (way more than rock/ pop/ jazz concerts) has further helped me develop appreciation for good vocals.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

**Mike** · October 22, 2016, 06:08 PM

Can we or should we be using a friends system as a point of reference? Hmmm....

**bzr** · October 22, 2016, 06:29 PM

Friday night & familiarity.

**Kuoppis** · October 22, 2016, 06:33 PM

It is about information gathering. As such any system, whether a friend's, a dealer/ manufacturer demo or a show display can serve as a point of reference. Of course, definitive input is only obtained when hearing a component in your own system, within your own chain and the acoustic environment available to you.

In case of a categorical dismissal of other people's systems as a source of information when forming an opinion about a component, e.g. the Sharks' visit to Magico to hear the M3 would have been futile - which I can't believe it was.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

**a.wayne** · October 22, 2016, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

You're making changes to your system. You're evaluating new speakers. You're contemplating a switch to tube amps or solid state. You're thinking a new DAC will get you closer. Cables...oh yeah...those too.

When you're considering a change, what are you using as your point of reference? A friends system? A dealers system? An amalgamation of all the live concerts you've heard? Can you even remember?

For me, I played sax for over 30 years. I played in 20+ piece Big Bands and I played in small jazz ensembles. I know what a terrific percussion section sounds like. I know what 5 trumpets and trombones blowing behind your head sounds like.

What about you? What's your reference?

Throw out some jazz horn recordings you consider well done ....??

**a.wayne** · October 22, 2016, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by bonzo

Exactly this. The problem is many audiophiles have their reference set to their own system (due to listening to it regularly). So, every change to that system becomes an improvement, when it is not really significant. Ideally, one should be going to a lot of live concerts, not have a speaker (hey I don't have one right now

), and then fly around to check whose system sounds closest to the live. Well, that's how I ended up, so that is my reference to set a reference system

Its a good reference once your ear/brain compromise switch is set for realistic reproduction standards. After years in the recording studio environment listening to hundreds of test copies , i can say most recordings are a shadow of the original work, plenty information lost between pre / post production .

IMO, it's also physically impossible to capture a full symphony Orchestra in a stereo recording , too many compromises.

Regards

**Mike** · October 22, 2016, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Throw out some jazz horn recordings you consider well done ....??

Quality of recording or musicality/technical prowess?

One of the best from a sheer saxophone technical standpoint is David Sanborn - Straight to the Heart. Technically, one of the best ever at his best. In studio live recording.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**a.wayne** · October 22, 2016, 08:33 PM

Im looking to add to my library , so good technically and well recorded is always a good thing....

**Mike** · October 22, 2016, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Im looking to add to my library , so good technically and well recorded is a good thing....

It's technically superb. Recording was live in a studio. Check out his supporting cast on that album. Wow.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**ACHiPo** · October 22, 2016, 11:28 PM

Live music is the standard. I've yet to find anything close, but that is the goal. Short of live music, the toe-tapping effect, along with shivers or hairs standing on end suffice. Even a spontaneous grin is a good sign!

**fas42** · October 22, 2016, 11:52 PM

That the changed system still produces convincing sound, and it's a gain if it can be done at a louder level. Which means it has to be able to generate the impact and punch that those "5 trumpets and trombones blowing behind your head" do, even if they are further away than what you have typically experienced.

**aardvarkbark** · October 23, 2016, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

....I know what 5 trumpets and trombones blowing behind your head sounds like....

Yikes! I suppose this would be what is referred to as 'forward' sounding?

My reference (for mostly classical and acoustic jazz) is Orchestra Hall, Chicago. Warm, wide, deep.

**Steve** · October 23, 2016, 09:43 AM

Live performance, of familiar material, definitely. Purpose built auditoriums and theatres. Several venues in Melbourne and Sydney are world class. Certainly the many amazing Opera Houses of Europe. If I get a semblance of that feeling you get from experiencing performances at such venues, then I am listening to a system that meets my minimum expectation and reference levels.

Count Bassie at Hamer Hall, Melbourne was a fine performance example to draw upon.

Can your equipment and room do something relative like that?

**annapolis Raider** · October 23, 2016, 10:08 AM

Live music is clearly the reference. I play one of these on a daily basis (http://www.sauter-pianos.de/en/omega-220omega-plus).

One experience that has changed my views, that I would HIGHLY recommend to everyone is try and make your own recordings. It is relatively cheap to get decent mics and recorders. I started out doing a few recordings for the church and others for voice recitals. Once you get a little experience at the process and challenges of making a decent recording, it will totally change your outlook. For example, the smallest changes in mic position and selection drastically change the end results.

**the professor** · October 23, 2016, 05:41 PM

Yes

Of course. We should use all of our music input. Even if its AM in the car. I am always learning stuff. But as a reference . . . probably not.

Originally Posted by Mike

Can we or should we be using a friends system as a point of reference? Hmmm....

**still-one** · October 23, 2016, 07:40 PM

My gear is normally the reference. All my current gear (except for the X2's) was A/B'd against other gear to earn its spot in my system. Whichever piece sounds better stays.

**Deafone** · October 23, 2016, 08:07 PM

This is actually a difficult question. I suspect I use a combination of the real thing and what I am used to hearing from my own system. I think I also like a warmer sound than the real thing to a small degree. Using the real thing I think can be problematic as I think the sound varies depending on where you are in relation to the players, etc. I go to probably over 50 live concerts a year in all sorts of differing environments. Last week, I was about 10 feet from various instruments (violin, piano, french horn, and clarinet) playing trios in a room in an old historic mansion. I felt I should have been further back to get a warmer sound. For example, I think the violin can sound more, for lack of a better term, wiry when up close.

**Randy Myers** · October 23, 2016, 09:09 PM

With almost any live music you are still listening to amplifiers, microphones, speakers, sound boards, etc. Yes it is a good reference, but not perfect. Maybe listening to un-amplified guitar, piano, etc., if that is even possible. I went to an in home concert, and even there small amplifiers were being used.

I guess if the music gives me enjoyment is the single most important reference! If a new piece of gear enhances that enjoyment, allows me to pick out a particular instrument, or several instruments, without digital glare or distortion then the addition is an improvement.

**tube-vds** · October 24, 2016, 02:40 AM

a live concert. sitting on a good acoustic place - eyes closed.

next event: 5 november - beethoven's 9th symphony.

**Steve** · October 24, 2016, 05:45 AM

When it come to public performances, it really depends on the performance/venue, how much money you CAN and are prepared to pay for your seat and/or WHO you know to get you where you want to be. If you want live, centre font whether that be AAA-AAD is where you want to be for a reference check.

If out are 50m away past the lighting console and next to a pillar then your reference is a sytem sub $10K.

**bonzo** · October 24, 2016, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

With almost any live music you are still listening to amplifiers, microphones, speakers, sound boards, etc. Yes it is a good reference, but not perfect. Maybe listening to un-amplified guitar, piano, etc., if that is even possible. I went to an in home concert, and even there small amplifiers were being used.

If you go to live acoustic classical concerts, you will be able to listen without amplification and get your ears set to acoustic tonality

**bonzo** · October 24, 2016, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by Deafone

I go to probably over 50 live concerts a year in all sorts of differing environments. Last week, I was about 10 feet from various instruments (violin, piano, french horn, and clarinet) playing trios in a room in an old historic mansion. I felt I should have been further back to get a warmer sound. For example, I think the violin can sound more, for lack of a better term, wiry when up close.

Same here. I got to Barbican, Royal Festival hall, wigmore hall, and some smaller venues a lot. I am lucky to be in central london where not only is the commute easy, but the tickets are much cheaper (subsidised) as compared to the US. Only Royal Opera House is silly expensive.

**Randy Myers** · October 24, 2016, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by bonzo

If you go to live acoustic classical concerts, you will be able to listen without amplification and get your ears set to acoustic tonality

Which is great except there are a lot of people, such as me, who have only a passing interest in classical music. I do own four classical albums that I will listen to on occasions, however my interests lie more in classic rock, jazz, jazz vocals, and folk. All of which would be a rarity to hear live without amplification, speakers, sound boards, microphones, etc.

**bonzo** · October 24, 2016, 08:05 AM

The best way to develop an interest in classical is via live shows.

Talking about amplified jazz, we recently saw the Aladdin musical which was absolutely phenomenal amplified jazz, vocals and choral

**Hiker** · October 24, 2016, 08:30 AM

Live Music - Years ago I had the opportunity to participate in a practice/training session for the Houston Symphony Orchestra. I was allowed to sit in three different positions as the orchestra played: 1) on the stage in the middle of the orchestra, 2) on the front edge of the sage behind the conductor, 3) on the floor below in the middle seat of row 10.

That is when I realized how important dynamics were in achieving realistic sound reproduction in the home. To bring this this level of live sound into my home I switched to horn speakers.

**bonzo** · October 24, 2016, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by Hiker

Live Music - Years ago I had the opportunity to participate in a practice/training session for the Houston Symphony Orchestra. I was allowed to sit in three different positions as the orchestra played: 1) on the stage in the middle of the orchestra, 2) on the front edge of the sage behind the conductor, 3) on the floor below in the middle seat of row 10.

That is when I realized how important dynamics were in achieving realistic sound reproduction in the home. To bring this this level of live sound into my home I switched to horn speakers.

That is precisely why my favorite speakers too are horns and restored apogees. I find restored apogees to more dynamic and slammy than horns, especially tympani and bass drum is unmatched. And no, other planars don't do that. I also find horns very different to each other, with trios with bass horns being the most dynamic of the lot

**Randy Myers** · October 24, 2016, 08:56 AM

I have never been a fan of horn speakers. I am sure I have not heard the quality horns that you are referring to, however of the ones that I have heard have all seemed harsh, or blaring to me.

I very much have a preference of the smoother sound with great imaging, what we used to refer to as the European sound. Back in the day I was a huge KEF fan and will probably eventually get a pair of Reference or Blade speakers, although I also have a preference for monitor or stand mounted speakers. I also have very much enjoyed MBL speakers (out of Germany) that I heard at one of our audio club members home recently, which encouraged me to pick up the Music Culture (MC) speakers that I currently own (Wolfgan's line that he started after selling the MBL company and built just down the road from MBL in Berlin).

I also have never liked electrostatic or planar type speakers. I recently heard a new very high end Martin Logan speaker at the house of a Stereophile magazine writer. I did not like them at all.

**bonzo** · October 24, 2016, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

I have never been a fan of horn speakers. I am sure I have not heard the quality horns that you are referring to, however of the ones that I have heard have all seemed harsh, or blaring to me.

I very much have a preference of the smoother sound with great imaging, what we used to refer to as the European sound. Back in the day I was a huge KEF fan and will probably eventually get a pair of Reference or Blade speakers, although I also have a preference for monitor or stand mounted speakers. I also have very much enjoyed MBL speakers (out of Germany) that I heard at one of our audio club members home recently, which encouraged me to pick up the Music Culture (MC) speakers that I currently own (Wolfgan's line that he started after selling the MBL company and built just down the road from MBL in Berlin).

I also have never liked electrostatic or planar type speakers. I recently heard a new very high end Martin Logan speaker at the house of a Stereophile magazine writer. I did not like them at all.

I don't like that ML either. Very different sound from an Analysis Audio, Apogee, or a restored Apogee, all of which are different. And horn speakers are extremely different from each other, much more than Wilsons are from Focals, Vandersteens, or Avalons etc

**a.wayne** · October 24, 2016, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Hiker

Live Music - Years ago I had the opportunity to participate in a practice/training session for the Houston Symphony Orchestra. I was allowed to sit in three different positions as the orchestra played: 1) on the stage in the middle of the orchestra, 2) on the front edge of the sage behind the conductor, 3) on the floor below in the middle seat of row 10.

That is when I realized how important dynamics were in achieving realistic sound reproduction in the home. To bring this this level of live sound into my home I switched to horn speakers.

No hi-fi system is capable of reproducing a live Symphony Orchestra, lacking at both the recording and playback level. At the playback level the limited system size and space used by most Audiophiles can only give you a small peek. Well heeled audiophiles with custom spaces, large playback speakers and huge reserves of power can create a more realistic illusion of a symphony orchestra, but just barely. A Pr of Horn speakers capable of doing such would be the size of small trucks , the only way to do it domestically IMO, is with large line source speakers and tons of power.

BTW Hiker, you do not have a "Horn Speaker" , your system has a Horn loaded Driver , a True Horn Speaker is a massive device .....

regards..

**Hiker** · October 24, 2016, 09:22 AM

a.wayne - you apparently are not a horn lover, if you are happy, I am happy for you.

**bonzo** · October 24, 2016, 09:27 AM

Hiker, when we are referring to horns it means (whether one likes these brands or not) trios with bass horns, tune audio anima, western electrics, big JBLs (66000, for example), big cessaros like the gamma, etc.

Horn loaded speakers, even smaller two way horns, while sensitive, don't have all drivers as horns

**a.wayne** · October 24, 2016, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by Hiker

a.wayne - you apparently are not a horn lover, if you are happy, I am happy for you.

Hiker,

I'm a reality lover and i have heard and had my share of Horns and i dont recall saying i hated Horns, you may want to read over what i wrote , something to do with size and space...

A real Horn speaker at the level of reproduction we are discussing is a massive device.....

Regards..

**Hiker** · October 24, 2016, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by bonzo

Horn loaded speakers, even smaller two way horns, while sensitive, don't have all drivers as horns

"The midrange is where we live".

**a.wayne** · October 24, 2016, 10:32 AM

If your happy , Im happy for you ....

**KeithR** · October 24, 2016, 11:52 AM

"live" reference is also very much a function of the venue as well - Disney Hall and Avery Fisher Hall don't sound similar. although I know an audiophile friend who hasn't been to a concert in 20 years which seems out of touch, so i do feel having a live reference is probably a good thing.

I think plenty of us played instruments, but its interesting that most of us still have different tastes. same friend has played guitar for 40 years and likes tubes everywhere with SET amplification and ortofon spu carts. to me, they don't sound like instruments i've played (piano, clarinet).

**bonzo** · October 24, 2016, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Hiker

"The midrange is where we live".

Quads with valves, then

**a.wayne** · October 24, 2016, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by KeithR

"live" reference is also very much a function of the venue as well - Disney Hall and Avery Fisher Hall don't sound similar. although I know an audiophile friend who hasn't been to a concert in 20 years which seems out of touch, so i do feel having a live reference is probably a good thing.

I think plenty of us played instruments, but its interesting that most of us still have different tastes. same friend has played guitar for 40 years and likes tubes everywhere with SET amplification and ortofon spu carts. to me, they don't sound like instruments i've played (piano, clarinet).

SET excells with the right Horns , the sound can be subliminal .....

**a.wayne** · October 25, 2016, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by bonzo

Quads with valves, then

Apogee stages does well in small rooms

**Ritmo** · October 25, 2016, 09:57 PM

I subscribe to Jock's (the professor) perspective of emotional enjoyment and "toe tapping". I enjoy going to live performances at least 6 to 12 times a year.

I listen carefully to live music. But, after all, if I'm getting enjoyment at home, who cares about the brand and cost. Isn't it really about the music?

**Randy Myers** · October 25, 2016, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by ritmo

i subscribe to jock's (the professor) perspective of emotional enjoyment and "toe tapping". I enjoy going to live performances at least 6 to 12 times a year.

I listen carefully to live music. But, after all, if i'm getting enjoyment at home, who cares about the brand and cost. Isn't it really about the music?

bingo

**CPP** · October 26, 2016, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by ritmo

i subscribe to jock's (the professor) perspective of emotional enjoyment and "toe tapping". I enjoy going to live performances at least 6 to 12 times a year.

I listen carefully to live music. But, after all, if i'm getting enjoyment at home, who cares about the brand and cost. Isn't it really about the music?

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

bingo

I need to give a double bingo to ritmos statement. Its always been about the music regardless of cost, brand and musical genre. Listening to music is personal and the last thing I knew we are not the same.

If your not toe tapping your missing the point of the music.

**a.wayne** · October 26, 2016, 10:39 AM

I swing my arms when listening to classical music , tap my toes to Jazz , get up and dance to Soca , ahh too many references....

**bzr** · October 26, 2016, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by a.wayne

I swing my arms when listening to classical music , tap my toes to Jazz , get up and dance to Soca , ahh too many references....

Damn! Must get messy when you listen to electronica!!

Thread: What is your reference?