The WAPO article and the fuss it has caused

Good point, Tom did make the statement that Chad never put out a decent sounding LP. Uncalled for and a response from Chad would be understandable. I don't think Fremer has a shred of humility.

puroagave said:
To understand even part of the debate you have to go back to early-mid '80s when it was Bob Bantz of Elusive Disc, Chad with Acoustic Sounds and Tom Port with Better Records. They invented the niche vinyl space selling OOP Audiophile vinyl. In short order it was clear Chad and Bob dominated the market, Tom Port branched off and got the DCC liquidation gig that lasted several years. TP spent the better part of a decade extolling the virtues of "remastered" DCC recordings and why they were superior to the originals.

What happened next is based on informed speculation, its when the DCC biz dried up TP started culling OOP used records that cost him next to nothing. They cherry picked the 'best' pressings of certain titles (aka Hot Stampers) already known for decent to excellent SQ, reselling them at enormous mark-ups. In order for this model to succeed you have to trash the work done by the reissue biz and people like Chad, Kevin Gray, Doug Sax, e al and reviewers like Fremer. All these years later, its not totally clear who threw first stone but the consensus is all roads lead back to TP and Better Records. Yes, there are bruised egos and for good reason.
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puroagave said:
To understand even part of the debate you have to go back to early-mid '80s when it was Bob Bantz of Elusive Disc, Chad with Acoustic Sounds and Tom Port with Better Records. They invented the niche vinyl space selling OOP Audiophile vinyl. In short order it was clear Chad and Bob dominated the market, Tom Port branched off and got the DCC liquidation gig that lasted several years. TP spent the better part of a decade extolling the virtues of "remastered" DCC recordings and why they were superior to the originals.

What happened next is based on informed speculation, its when the DCC biz dried up TP started culling OOP used records that cost him next to nothing. They cherry picked the 'best' pressings of certain titles (aka Hot Stampers) already known for decent to excellent SQ, reselling them at enormous mark-ups. In order for this model to succeed you have to trash the work done by the reissue biz and people like Chad, Kevin Gray, Doug Sax, e al and reviewers like Fremer. All these years later, its not totally clear who threw first stone but the consensus is all roads lead back to TP and Better Records. Yes, there are bruised egos and for good reason.
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Thank you for the overview.
 
mep said:
Can you explain what you are talking about?
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Sure, I am referring to the video response, and the echo after every word that Michael 45 says in his intro. It reminds me of the Zoom meeting when someone who participates by phone (and doesn't mute themself when not speaking) can't hear the echoes or feedback that everyone else hears.

The reason I referred to it as "echos, reverb, interference or whatever all that noise is" in my first post and "echoes or feedback" above is that I don't know exactly what is producing what sounds to me like an echo. It isn't technically, more like some kind of a delay in the audio. All I know is that it is a lot of unwanted noise, it is very distracting ***to me***, and I chose not to subject myself to it for any longer than I did.
 
JCS123 said:
Sure, I am referring to the video response, and the echo after every word that Michael 45 says in his intro. It reminds me of the Zoom meeting when someone who participates by phone (and doesn't mute themself when not speaking) can't hear the echoes or feedback that everyone else hears.

The reason I referred to it as "echos, reverb, interference or whatever all that noise is" in my first post and "echoes or feedback" above is that I don't know exactly what is producing what sounds to me like an echo. It isn't technically, more like some kind of a delay in the audio. All I know is that it is a lot of unwanted noise, it is very distracting ***to me***, and I chose not to subject myself to it for any longer than I did.
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Thanks for the reply. Now I understand your intent.
 
Gene said:
No one who seriously listens to music, regardless of format really give's a rich s**t what these guys think.
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I don't give s**t what anybody on the internet thinks about this hobby or the technology used. The only ears that count are mine and what I am looking for. Youtube videos relating to this hobby are a joke IMO.
 
still-one said:
Youtube videos relating to this hobby are a joke IMO.
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I don’t agree.

Do we want more people in the hobby? Do we want younger folks in the hobby? Do we desperately need to HUMANIZE audio? If so, then the same old ways won’t work. Social media is a huge benefit for the hobby in so many ways.

The fact is, young people are indeed coming into this hobby through forums like headfi, vinyl, YouTube, Instagram, hanging out in record stores, etc.

What they are not doing is buying Stereophile.

There are audio related YouTube channels with nearly 300,000 subscribers. Do you think Stereophile has 300,00 subscribers?


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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Gene said:
No one who seriously listens to music, regardless of format really give's a rich s**t what these guys think.
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Sure sounds like you think you have your finger on the pulse of all people that seriously listen to music.
 
still-one said:
I don't give s**t what anybody on the internet thinks about this hobby or the technology used. The only ears that count are mine and what I am looking for. Youtube videos relating to this hobby are a joke IMO.
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At close to 3700 posts on this forum I'm not so sure that you don't give a s**t about others opinions.

What I'm getting at - despite it sounding like I'm "picking on you" - is that for many of us "this hobby" has come to include interacting with others over various media, be it message boards for some, YouTube for others, or my weekly Saturday "hi fi chat" Zoom session with a bunch of guys who've been doing this Zoom weekly for quite a while.

Given the extent of the interactions, it seems to me many people DO care what others think. Now how much that influences them can range from 0 to 100. But back to my original premise; if we didn't care what others think I'm not sure why we'd be interacting with others this/these way(s).
 
Mike said:
I don’t agree.

Do we want more people in the hobby? Do we want younger folks in the hobby? Do we desperately need to HUMANIZE audio? If so, then the same old ways won’t work. Social media is a huge benefit for the hobby in so many ways.

The fact is, young people are indeed coming into this hobby through forums like headfi, vinyl, YouTube, Instagram, hanging out in record stores, etc.

What they are not doing is buying Stereophile.

There are audio related YouTube channels with nearly 300,000 subscribers. Do you think Stereophile has 300,00 subscribers?


2dc3053523be3b042454d9f615126461.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Mike, This is one of the few times that your response comes from the perspective of a dealer and not of a "audiophile" (whatever that is). In theory the internet
Social media may help your enterprise but it adds little value to the end user unless they think someone else's opinion is more important than their own.

Many of us (apparently older) don't require a Stereophile or a someone blabbing on Youtube to make our purchasing decisions. Of course we will be dying off soon so the next generation may need to have someone make decisions on what to buy.
 
I completely disagree. YouTube offers timely, on demand info on so many topics and music. I watch many YouTube channels on various vinyl pressings daily.

The “get off my lawn” crowd can continue to dismiss it, but YouTube and the like aren’t going anywhere and in fact, exploding in popularity. These channels offer excellent data points and different perspectives.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Doesn’t have to be controversial. People like to consume information in different ways. Then there’s learning, vs. entertainment. Many things influence this, including generational cohort preferences.

How much one wants to allow 3rd party information to be a surrogate for one’s own decision-making can depend on many things, particularly your risk aversion and possibly your finances (can you afford to take purchase depreciation repeatedly). Or it can just be entertaining.
 
still-one said:
Mike, This is one of the few times that your response comes from the perspective of a dealer and not of a "audiophile" (whatever that is). In theory the internet
Social media may help your enterprise but it adds little value to the end user unless they think someone else's opinion is more important than their own.

Many of us (apparently older) don't require a Stereophile or a someone blabbing on Youtube to make our purchasing decisions. Of course we will be dying off soon so the next generation may need to have someone make decisions on what to buy.
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Youtube videos and certain audio websites (I will include this forum as a prime example) are VERY helpful to me.

Online reviews are a good (and almost always FREE) starting point to give me an idea if something might be worthy of further investigation. I learn about new brands that I probably wouldn't have ever heard about from certain legacy/print outlets. For example: Block Audio is a brand that I have only heard about here on this site, and whose products I want to hear when funds allow.

Yes, a lot of them are just plain entertaining, like jmusica mentioned above.

If any of the new media models help to get young people interested in better sound, I'm all for it. I believe these new formats surely do.
 
I'm not sure why anyone would be against YT helping to lessen the stranglehold legacy reviewers/media have on this hobby and putting the control back into the hobbyists. Why would you NOT want to help expand this hobby?

Don't like YT? Don't watch it.

Think you know it all and don't care what anyone else has to say in forums or YT? Good for you - that's your choice.

But when you look at the subscription numbers of the legacy mags (only 70K for Stereophile per their own numbers) and the web traffic of many of these legacy web sites, they are no where near the traffic many of these non-professional YT channels are getting.

I love different peoples opinions and the creativity many of them put into making these vids and the fact they are bringing us access to new gear. It's so refreshing over the arrogant old guard.
 
i could careless about reviews, they do not help me determine what i am buying, all gear is different so unless its the exact same setup as mine than a review is irrelevant. i do read some tho just to see what others may think but its all opinion an has zero effect on my choices.
 
Mike said:
[...] YouTube offers timely, on demand info on so many topics and music.
[...] but YouTube and the like aren’t going anywhere and in fact, exploding in popularity. These channels offer excellent data points and different perspectives.
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I agree. Today's consumer has easy access to YouTube channels of many varieties. I do not watch any audio-related channel on a regular basis, but I have noticed that some channels have a subjective bent while others promote objective reviews. Being exposed to different points of view ultimately help consumers.

I personally would not make purchasing decisions based on YouTube sound, but many would argue that being able to listen to lower-than-CD-quality sound is better than trying to interpret the written words of a subjective reviewer.
 
Mike said:
I don’t agree.

Do we want more people in the hobby? Do we want younger folks in the hobby? Do we desperately need to HUMANIZE audio? If so, then the same old ways won’t work. Social media is a huge benefit for the hobby in so many ways.

The fact is, young people are indeed coming into this hobby through forums like headfi, vinyl, YouTube, Instagram, hanging out in record stores, etc.

What they are not doing is buying Stereophile.

There are audio related YouTube channels with nearly 300,000 subscribers. Do you think Stereophile has 300,00 subscribers?


2dc3053523be3b042454d9f615126461.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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This is what I call a "Mike drop". Lol!
 
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