Tidal Misleading Listeners ??? (Neil Young on why he's no longer on Tidal)

**Calvin** · February 14, 2021, 02:30 PM

This brief post below by Neil Young is alarming. There's also a link at the bottom page to some other interesting comments.

Glad I still collect and rip redbook CDs.

Neil Young Archives

**nicoff** · February 14, 2021, 02:55 PM

Link does not work

**Calvin** · February 14, 2021, 03:13 PM

Sorry, it’s still working for me. Read down on this forum and follow the link in AE67 post on Jan 3:

Tidal - All Neil Young albums before 1982 are gone. Thanks TIDAL! - #7 by AE67 - Music Services - Roon Labs Community

**nicoff** · February 14, 2021, 03:20 PM

Thanks. His statement is NOT about Tidal but rather it is about MQA.

Here is what Neil Young had to say about MQA:

"Mr. Young hears it in another way and has clear words about MQA: ‘I feel that my masters are in no way improved. They are degraded and manipulated. I made them. I know the difference. I can hear it’."

**Calvin** · February 14, 2021, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by nicoff

Thanks. His statement is NOT about Tidal but rather it is about MQA.

Here is what Neil Young had to say about MQA:

"Mr. Young hears it in another way and has clear words about MQA: ‘I feel that my masters are in no way improved. They are degraded and manipulated. I made them. I know the difference. I can hear it’."

Agree that he has a real problem with MQA now, but his post is entitled, “TIDAL MISLEADING LISTENERS”

TIDAL is calling their files of my songs Masters. But Tidal’s MQA files are not my masters. I make my masters - not TIDAL. I don’t need some hocus-pocus file manipulation that claims to improve my work. I made my masters the way I wanted them to sound. If TIDAL referred to their titles as TIDAL MASTERS, I would have no problem, but they don’t. They call them Masters. I had my music removed from that platform. They are not my masters.

**asindc** · February 14, 2021, 03:36 PM

I didn’t see from the linked thread where Tidal misled its subscribers.

**Calvin** · February 14, 2021, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by asindc

I didn’t see from the linked thread where Tidal misled its subscribers.

Are we reading the same article? At the top according to the article Neil Young says:

TIDAL is calling their files of my songs Masters. But Tidal’s MQA files are not my masters. I make my masters - not TIDAL. I don’t need some hocus-pocus file manipulation that claims to improve my work. I made my masters the way I wanted them to sound. If TIDAL referred to their titles as TIDAL MASTERS, I would have no problem, but they don’t. They call them Masters. I had my music removed from that platform. They are not my masters.

In the second paragraph it states, “Tidal’s master is a degradation of the original to make it fit in a box that collects royalties.”

This is Neil Young’s wording, not mine.

IMO this can pose a problem calling something the master - as it shows in the pics in the article - when it isn’t. This is TIDAL’s doing and responsibility.

TIDAL is replacing redbook CD recordings with their new MQA masters. Is this the wave of the future? Will this new format make its way into other streaming platforms? As of Nov 2020 Warner Music is making millions of MQA tracks for TIDAL. Will all their future CDs and vinyl be from the real masters or will they be fakes too? Lots of questions to ponder IMO.

**nicoff** · February 14, 2021, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by asindc

I didn’t see from the linked thread where Tidal misled its subscribers.

The reference to Tidal in the title is misleading. MQA has been claiming from the get go that they have ‘fixed’ or done whatever to the masters to get the original sound. And obviously Neil Young has a problem with that since HE created the masters and HE knows what they should sound like.
In my view, the creator of the original masters knows better than anyone else. So that alone would make me question what MQA is all about.
Tidal is caught in the middle here IMO. The real beef is with MQA not Tidal.

**still-one** · February 14, 2021, 04:26 PM

He just wants to stay relevant but as with all of us Boomers that is fleeting.

**Mike** · February 14, 2021, 05:27 PM

Misleading? One word: Pono.

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**Calvin** · February 14, 2021, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

Misleading? One word: Pono.

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I agree Pono was misleading. But IMO so is TIDAL by saying saying that MQA files are masters (see pics on original article) when they aren’t!

**Mike** · February 14, 2021, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by Calvin

I agree Pono was misleading. But IMO so is TIDAL by saying saying that MQA files are masters (see pics on original article) when they aren’t!

I wonder why exactly he feels they aren’t masters? What is changing exactly from the original recording?

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**Bones13** · February 14, 2021, 07:44 PM

I have a Pono, it was not bad at the time. The store was great, for awhile.

I think NY is saying that Tidal converts his HiRez “masters” to MQA “masters” files, which, I guess he sees as adulteration. By Tidal calling these MQA files “Masters”, instead of “Tidal Masters”, is the issue.

**Calvin** · February 14, 2021, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by Bones13

I have a Pono, it was not bad at the time. The store was great, for awhile.

I think NY is saying that Tidal converts his HiRez “masters” to MQA “masters” files, which, I guess he sees as adulteration. By Tidal calling these MQA files “Masters”, instead of “Tidal Masters”, is the issue.

I agree that is part of his problem. But he also says, “I made my masters the way I wanted them to sound” and “Tidal’s master is a degradation of the original ...” IMO he made the real master so he should know what they sound like.

**asindc** · February 14, 2021, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by Calvin

Are we reading the same article? At the top according to the article Neil Young says:

TIDAL is calling their files of my songs Masters. But Tidal’s MQA files are not my masters. I make my masters - not TIDAL. I don’t need some hocus-pocus file manipulation that claims to improve my work. I made my masters the way I wanted them to sound. If TIDAL referred to their titles as TIDAL MASTERS, I would have no problem, but they don’t. They call them Masters. I had my music removed from that platform. They are not my masters.

In the second paragraph it states, “Tidal’s master is a degradation of the original to make it fit in a box that collects royalties.”

This is Neil Young’s wording, not mine.

IMO this can pose a problem calling something the master - as it shows in the pics in the article - when it isn’t. This is TIDAL’s doing and responsibility.

TIDAL is replacing redbook CD recordings with their new MQA masters. Is this the wave of the future? Will this new format make its way into other streaming platforms? As of Nov 2020 Warner Music is making millions of MQA tracks for TIDAL. Will all their future CDs and vinyl be from the real masters or will they be fakes too? Lots of questions to ponder IMO.

So the issue is with MQA, not Tidal. Got it.

**Mr Peabody** · February 15, 2021, 12:32 AM

I wonder if there was both NY's original 44.1k as well as the MQA version? If so I'd say let the listener choose. However, I can see the artistic purist view as well.

It's a bit of a pain but if I have a choice of versions I will listen to all then choose which one to continue with. It's not always MQA or highest res.

My Aurender will do the 1st unfold but my DAC isn't MQA, so from what I have come to understand I can get 96k if the file goes that high or higher but I'm limited to 96k.

I was listening to Bad Company's, Running With The Pack, their was a remastered 44.1k version and a MQA 96k version. I preferred the remaster, the 96k seemed a bit thin by comparison. I have to say this is more the rare occasion than norm though.

The point is when streaming check for your best source. Tidal's version of America's Greatest Hits is better than my CD rip. I suppose the Tida version is some type of remaster although it doesn't specifically say. And, I began playing B-Tribe tonight from Tidal and thought this doesn't sound so good, my CD rip was noticeably better.

I personally don't think the difference is large enough to warrant all the fuss, it's not like someone will turn on the MQA version and say, "what the He... is wrong with this". Why don't he pull his music from the radio? On rare occasion where I hear the radio the sound quality Is so bad from FM I used to know. Copressed files and other degragation make some songs sound quite different from how I know them.

So let's be consistent with this artistic hardline. I think FM and satellite radio does way more damage than MQA. AT least MQA's goal is good sound. I think.

**Gregm** · February 15, 2021, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

I think FM and satellite radio does way more damage than MQA. AT least MQA's goal is good sound. I think.

No disrespect, but it would seem that MQA's target is to generate new income from existing musical content.

The "good / master sound" argument looks more like a positioning, i.e. a selling proposition, than anything else!
Regards

**CPP** · February 15, 2021, 09:41 AM

I could careless about Pono. Tidal ls misleading its members , by using the word Masters. 'A master recording is the official original recording of a song, sound or performance. Also referred to as “masters”, it is the source from which all the later copies are made.' And Neil Young caught them on it. HE controls his masters and Tidal/MQA did not use them to create the MQA offerings of his music on Tidal. That is in fact misleading by Tidal. All Tidal has to do is call its MQA Stuff, 'MQA' and be done with it. And regarding these MQA noted "Masters" we do not know, if a CD was used and who knows which release of the CD it was, or a needle drop or an actual tape and then was the tape a copy of a copy or was it in fact the actual master tape. It appears we will never know.

**W9TR** · February 15, 2021, 10:50 AM

Master is embedded in the name. Not sure just calling it MQA accomplishes anything. Master Quality Audio....hmmm.

I’m glad NY is speaking up. I wonder if MQA royalties get in the way of royalties paid to artists? Or are they over and above? I always look for economic motives when I hear something like this.

It would appear that Tidal would be at an economic disadvantage wrt other services if they are paying MQA royalties on top of artist’s royalties. I guess it doesn’t matter since that they are not making any money right now.

**Calvin** · February 15, 2021, 11:00 AM

I view MQA as a $$$ grab:

MQA is Bad For Music. Here's Why.

**Mike** · February 15, 2021, 11:12 AM

Turns out Neil has a history with Meridian (the company behind MQA). It has to do with Pono/Meridian, etc and how everything went south.

Sour grapes?

EXCLUSIVE: Neil Young visits Meridian – Pono hi-res music link-up imminent? | What Hi-Fi?

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**Calvin** · February 15, 2021, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

Turns out Neil has a history with Meridian (the company behind MQA). It has to do with Pono/Meridian, etc and how everything went south.

Sour grapes?

EXCLUSIVE: Neil Young visits Meridian – Pono hi-res music link-up imminent? | What Hi-Fi?

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Even if some of this is sour grapes, Young's point remains true. TIDAL knows these are NOT "the Masters" so they shouldn't be advertising them like they are. To do so IMO is misleading! They could easily call them TIDAL Masters (TM) or MQA Masters (MQA-M).

Unfortunately, the audio world is full of all types of deception. Next, they will be soaking audio isolation feet in THC so it will give you that extra psychedelic magic in your sound.

**CPP** · February 15, 2021, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by calvin

even if some of this is sour grapes, young's point remains true. Tidal knows these are not "the masters" so they shouldn't be advertising them like they are. To do so imo is misleading! They could easily call them tidal masters (tm) or mqa masters (mqa-m).

Unfortunately, the audio world is full of all types of deception. Next, they will be soaking audio isolation feet in thc so it will give you that extra psychedelic magic in your sound.

agree 100%

**Mechnutt** · February 15, 2021, 01:04 PM

NY also states that his Masters sound better than the MQA versions. He claims that he can hear a difference.

I find it very interesting that he can hear a difference. I guess he should know since he recorded the music. I have been considering streaming and I am thinking about trying Amazon Music HD. MQA is a moot point for me since I do not have a DAC that can do MQA. I also have an issue with Meridian taking royalties.

**Mike** · February 15, 2021, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Calvin

Even if some of this is sour grapes, Young's point remains true. TIDAL knows these are NOT "the Masters" so they shouldn't be advertising them like they are. To do so IMO is misleading! They could easily call them TIDAL Masters (TM) or MQA Masters (MQA-M).

Unfortunately, the audio world is full of all types of deception. Next, they will be soaking audio isolation feet in THC so it will give you that extra psychedelic magic in your sound.

I don’t disagree, was just pointing out there is often more to the story. I wonder why Neil didn’t just leave his albums on Tidal as “non-MQA”, redbook?

Regardless, we can still enjoy them on Qobuz. Live from Massey Hall is still by favorite album of his.

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**Calvin** · February 15, 2021, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

I don’t disagree, was just pointing out there is often more to the story. I wonder why Neil didn’t just leave his albums on Tidal as “non-MQA”, redbook?

Regardless, we can still enjoy them on Qobuz. Live from Massey Hall is still by favorite album of his.

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From what I understand, Tidal was / is removing rebook CDs from Tidal and only using their so-called masters. I understand that this is an ongoing process.

Yes, Qobuz is better IMO. I had Tidal and ultimately decided to dump it some time back.

I didn't see it coming (Tidal replacing albums with MQA only) - #21 by spacecase - TIDAL - Roon Labs Community

**Mike** · February 15, 2021, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Calvin

From what I understand, Tidal was / is removing rebook CDs from Tidal and only using their so-called masters. I understand that this is an ongoing process.

Yes, Qobuz is better IMO. I had Tidal and ultimately decided to dump it some time back.

I didn't see it coming (Tidal replacing albums with MQA only) - #21 by spacecase - TIDAL - Roon Labs Community

I like QoBuz too.

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**aKnyght** · February 15, 2021, 02:50 PM

not sure of the point of MQA anymore ... given qobuz streams 24/196 when available for a title, seems like MQA is a solution now without a problem.

and, you don't need an MQA capable DAC with qobuz (or hi-rez file downloads)

qobuz FTW

**steve59** · February 15, 2021, 03:02 PM

I'm just a consumer. but it sounds like a petty money grab. The man is 75 and probably done a million concerts so whatever(i'm sure his ears are fine). I see Metallica is finally on tidal so, bye mr Young please close the door on your way out.

**steve59** · February 15, 2021, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by aKnyght

not sure of the point of MQA anymore ... given qobuz streams 24/196 when available for a title, seems like MQA is a solution now without a problem.

and, you don't need an MQA capable DAC with qobuz (or hi-rez file downloads)

qobuz FTW

I think the appeal of mqa is it used less bandwidth to deliver the same goods. There's tons of flame wars on about this, but I can see the appeal from the streaming services pov. I invested steeply in getting full mqa and am disappointed that most titles are coming out in 24/44.

**GSOphile** · February 15, 2021, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Calvin

From what I understand, Tidal was / is removing rebook CDs from Tidal and only using their so-called masters. I understand that this is an ongoing process.

Yes, Qobuz is better IMO. I had Tidal and ultimately decided to dump it some time back.

I didn't see it coming (Tidal replacing albums with MQA only) - #21 by spacecase - TIDAL - Roon Labs Community

If true, this is what a number of MQA critics were predicting (Charlie Hansen, are you watching from somewhere up there?), that those controlling the MQA licensing process would try to gain control of the catalogs, recycling their content (i.e., new release of old content), with associated royalties to MQA and the record companies - regardless of technical merit. Potentially big money here. NY is just one of the fish, but probably a lot more business savvy than most artists.

**u-sound** · February 15, 2021, 04:53 PM

total misleading....the world is falling apart

**aKnyght** · February 15, 2021, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by steve59

...I invested steeply in getting full mqa and am disappointed that most titles are coming out in 24/44.

when listening to PCM on my system, i can hear the SQ difference between 16 and 24 bit word lengths; however, i can't hear any difference in sampling frequency above 44 kHz.

to tell you the truth, regular old 16/44 redbook PCM sounds pretty darn good on my system!

so, i am happy with whatever file resolutions are available on qobuz for a given title.

YMMV ...as it should

**steve59** · February 15, 2021, 07:56 PM

I wasn't aware they were removing the redbook option but if the files are smaller it makes sense.

**XV-1** · February 16, 2021, 04:18 AM

The audio world is full of BS marketing bordering on lies.

" Perfect Sound Forever "

enuf said

**BlueFox** · February 16, 2021, 05:03 AM

Originally Posted by XV-1

The audio world is full of BS marketing bordering on lies.

I think this applies to virtually everything advertised.

**Mordante** · February 16, 2021, 09:29 AM

MQA is a solution without a problem.

**Mike** · February 16, 2021, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Mordante

MQA is a solution without a problem.

When MQA was first being developed, bandwidth was a big issue. That certainly isn’t the case today with gigabit internet.

**nicoff** · February 16, 2021, 10:51 AM

With the wide availability of broadband to consumers today, there is no need for MQA.

If Tidal removes all non-MQA versions from the catalog, then Tidal library offerings will be cut in half. Users will no longer be able to listen unadulterated, lossless, red book music.

I wonder if Tidal will then cut the subscription price proportionally (less offerings = less cost = cheaper subscription).

**GSOphile** · February 16, 2021, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Mordante

MQA is a solution without a problem.

From an audiophile standpoint, I completely agree. The problem the MQA folks are really focused on is their and the record companies' revenue problems by attempting to gain control over the mastering process. The audiophile bandwidth and storage rationales have pretty much evaporated, so for many MQA is a solution to yesterday's problems.

**still-one** · February 16, 2021, 12:34 PM

I will bet that not 3% of Tidal users care one bit whether Neil Young's catalog is available.

**u-sound** · February 16, 2021, 05:16 PM

does mqa sounds good with the iphone?

**CPP** · February 17, 2021, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by u-sound

does mqa sounds good with the iphone?

The inconvenient truth about MQA on iOS | Darko.Audio

**Randy Myers** · February 17, 2021, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

Misleading? One word: Pono.

Honestly, Pono was excellent and he deserves a ton of credit! A musician that was/is not all about the money but instead really promoted/promotes quality!

You can once again blame Apple, not Mr. Young. Pono Music was a great source for digital files. Unfortunately the host and website developer was purchased by a company, that when it all played out, became apparent was owned by Apple. In affect they bought the Pono store and almost immediately closed it down to eliminate one more source of competition.

I really like the way Neil Young does not hold back punches and says it as he sees it!!!

Thread: Tidal Misleading Listeners ??? (Neil Young on why he's no longer on Tidal)

Tidal Misleading Listeners ??? (Neil Young on why he's no longer on Tidal)

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