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  1. #1

    Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Have you guys tried to play very loud music (say rock at 100-105db) when your turntable is in the same room as your speakers?

    At normal listening levels I do not hear or notice any induced vibration. But at those levels I do.

    Many years ago, I used to have my TT in an adjacent room and never experienced such a thing.

    It makes me wonder if having a TT in the same room as the speakers is a compromise. Even if one is using some kind of isolation, I’m thinking that you can’t stop the sound wave from hitting the turntable directly bypassing the isolation system. Thoughts?

  2. #2
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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    You could encase your turntable in an acoustically sealed box.
    Neko Audio
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  3. #3

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by NekoAudio View Post
    You could encase your turntable in an acoustically sealed box.
    Is there such a thing? Is that something that is practical or is it something similar to a safe (meaning impractical)?

    The more I think about it, anyone who has their turntable in the same room with their speakers (and I think most folks do) would be affected by this issue.

  4. #4

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Is there such a thing? Is that something that is practical or is it something similar to a safe (meaning impractical)?

    The more I think about it, anyone who has their turntable in the same room with their speakers (and I think most folks do) would be affected by this issue.
    Do you think that everyone is playing Rock at over 100dB levels all the time? If so, they are already hearing impaired or are working their way to becoming deaf.
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  5. #5

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Do you think that everyone is playing Rock at over 100dB levels all the time? If so, they are already hearing impaired or are working their way to becoming deaf.
    Of course not. Neither do I.

  6. #6

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Of course not. Neither do I.
    Then why are you worried about a problem you only hear when you are playing rock at super high levels?
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  7. #7

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Then why are you worried about a problem you only hear when you are playing rock at super high levels?
    Simply because it makes listening to an LP at that level impossible. That’s why. I wanted to play the LP but ended up switching to digital with no vibration issues. Make it another point for digital.

  8. #8

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Simply because it makes listening to an LP at that level impossible. That’s why. I wanted to play the LP but ended up switching to digital with no vibration issues. Make it another point for digital.
    So what table/arm/cartridge are you using?
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  9. #9
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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Simply because it makes listening to an LP at that level impossible. That’s why. I wanted to play the LP but ended up switching to digital with no vibration issues. Make it another point for digital.
    99.9% of the time I listen at modest levels. I will use my digital if I ever want to crack some old time rock and roll/metal. However I believe my Maggie's are not really adept at this anyway , although they do surprise me sometimes, especially with the Rythmik subs....

    However, if I am really in the mood to rock out I will almost always use my headphones anyways ... vibration is not an issues there and the Abyss really really rock, especially with the Moon headphone amp!
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  10. #10

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    So what table/arm/cartridge are you using?
    VPI Classic with the tone arm that comes with it and a Benz Micro.

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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    where is your TT located in the room with respect to L/R speakers and corners of room ?
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  12. #12

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
    where is your TT located in the room with respect to L/R speakers and corners of room ?
    The turntable is located adjacent to a side wall. About 14 feet from the front wall. The nearest speaker is 8’ away; the other speaker is 14 feet away. The room is very large (18 feet wide by ~25 feet long)

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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    are the corners of your room 'bass trapped' ?
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  14. #14

    Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
    are the corners of your room 'bass trapped' ?
    No bass traps. Two Subs have been properly positioned in the room to avoid any bass issues.
    However, in an enclosed room, if I am playing rock music very loud, I will definitely feel the bass (two subs in the room for music) at the listening position (as it should be).
    That sound wave is also hitting the turntable which is what I am referring to. I do not have an isolation platform under the TT but since the sound wave is hitting the TT directly, I am not so sure how effective it would be.

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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Understood, the fact that you are 'feeling' the bass is no doubt the issue with your vinyl rig. I suspect isolation (out of the room) might be the only real answer for loud playback
    Cheers ! …. Dave

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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Is there such a thing? Is that something that is practical or is it something similar to a safe (meaning impractical)?
    I've never seen it done, but it should be practical. Something similar to a projector hushbox but with more significant acoustic absorption and no gaps when the door/lid is closed. Pre-made, you could maybe go with a home recording booth for a few thousand dollars, most of which would be large enough to accommodate your entire turntable setup. Maybe add a bit more absorption for the mid-bass and bass frequencies if needed. The cables could thread through a hole that is airtight.

    I suppose you could go even more extreme and add a vacuum pump system to remove any air inside during playback, and then to let air back in when you need to open it. Some sound isolation units are already designed to connect ductwork to them.

    The most I know of someone doing is cutting a hole into their floor in order to mount their turntable on a pole going straight into the ground, completely decoupling it from their house.
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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    4 blocks of Sorbothane on top of a 1-1/4" thick slab of granite seems to work for me. One speaker is inches from the TT.
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  18. #18

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    4 blocks of Sorbothane on top of a 1-1/4" thick slab of granite seems to work for me. One speaker is inches from the TT.
    Have you tried it playing at 100-105db?

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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Have you tried it playing at 100-105db?
    I do crank it up but have not metered it. Will check it out.
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  20. #20

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    When I had my Nottingham turntable, I bought a wall mount that I screwed into wall studs. Had to use a good size lag to hold the weight but it fixed the vibration problem.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by FishStalkerGuy View Post
    When I had my Nottingham turntable, I bought a wall mount that I screwed into wall studs. Had to use a good size lag to hold the weight but it fixed the vibration problem.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    This is exactly what I have done in multiple rooms. Wall mounting, particularly if you can get a load bearing wall, solves most macro-vibrational issues like footfall concerns and gross distortions. Beyond that, it is trial and error to find the best solution for your particular situation.
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  22. #22

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by NekoAudio View Post
    I've never seen it done, but it should be practical. Something similar to a projector hushbox but with more significant acoustic absorption and no gaps when the door/lid is closed. Pre-made, you could maybe go with a home recording booth for a few thousand dollars, most of which would be large enough to accommodate your entire turntable setup. Maybe add a bit more absorption for the mid-bass and bass frequencies if needed. The cables could thread through a hole that is airtight.

    I suppose you could go even more extreme and add a vacuum pump system to remove any air inside during playback, and then to let air back in when you need to open it. Some sound isolation units are already designed to connect ductwork to them.

    The most I know of someone doing is cutting a hole into their floor in order to mount their turntable on a pole going straight into the ground, completely decoupling it from their house.
    I thought this was a joke at first, but now I think you’re serious.
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  23. #23

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    I don’t have vibration issues such as vibration due to footsteps. Again, I only experienced the vibration when I played the music very very loud. I very rarely listen to music at that volume and when I do, it is only for one song or two max.
    What I was asking if any of you have experienced something similar when playing rock music at that high volume (100-105db)

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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    I don’t have vibration issues such as vibration due to footsteps. Again, I only experienced the vibration when I played the music very very loud. I very rarely listen to music at that volume and when I do, it is only for one song or two max.
    What I was asking if any of you have experienced something similar when playing rock music at that high volume (100-105db)
    I definitely have. Permanently solved by wall mounting. Deep bass tracks played loudly would literally cause the stylus to jump out of the groove (and this was with isolation under the table). Wall mounting on a load bearing wall was the only solution I found that worked. I could then play music as loud as I wanted and could jump up and down in front of the turntable with no issues at all. I have replicated this in my current room on a non-load bearing wall and it seems to be working equally well.
    Morgan

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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by MPW View Post
    I definitely have. Permanently solved by wall mounting.
    I did the same thing in the 70s with my AR turntable. Of course the optimum solution is to throw the turntable into the trash, and get a decent file player.
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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    Of course the optimum solution is to throw the turntable into the trash, and get a decent file player.
    How dare you ! to the gallows with you young man !
    Cheers ! …. Dave

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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Have you guys tried to play very loud music (say rock at 100-105db) when your turntable is in the same room as your speakers?

    At normal listening levels I do not hear or notice any induced vibration. But at those levels I do.

    Many years ago, I used to have my TT in an adjacent room and never experienced such a thing.

    It makes me wonder if having a TT in the same room as the speakers is a compromise. Even if one is using some kind of isolation, I’m thinking that you can’t stop the sound wave from hitting the turntable directly bypassing the isolation system. Thoughts?
    What TT, i used to have those issues only with DD tables mostly Technics 1200 ..


    Regards

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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    VPI Classic with the tone arm that comes with it and a Benz Micro.
    What type of platter mat are you using .?


    Suspended tables are best for that kind of listening , technically speaking all TT’s have to be suspended in some form or the other to reduce these harmonics, if not massively built that is ..


    Regards

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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Simply because it makes listening to an LP at that level impossible. That’s why. I wanted to play the LP but ended up switching to digital with no vibration issues. Make it another point for digital.
    Another point for digital, not really , CDP’s will skip too ...!


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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    I don’t have vibration issues such as vibration due to footsteps. Again, I only experienced the vibration when I played the music very very loud. I very rarely listen to music at that volume and when I do, it is only for one song or two max.
    What I was asking if any of you have experienced something similar when playing rock music at that high volume (100-105db)
    No need to apologize, its your system and ears , dont let the i cant crank it up because its clipping db Police kill your fun ..



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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    I’ve got a high moving mass (22 kg) Nottingham Dais and can play plenty loud without issue. My table is not near any room boundaries and 6’ away from the nearest speaker.
    Tom

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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    I thought this was a joke at first, but now I think you’re serious.
    I don't really think someone should go that far, but they theoretically could. However given what people are willing to invest in their systems, I don't think the cost or effort required is that horrible if they need a solution.
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  33. #33

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    my system is in my family room and has a suspended joist floor. i put 3 jack posts in my basement that is below my family room. one under my turntable stand and one under each speaker at the closes joist. this worked great, i have a Linn LP 12 which is know for foot fall issues and i have no problems of any sort at all. john

  34. #34

    Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    I once had my TT suspended from a wall but never played it that loud since I was living in an apartment.
    I also once had my TT in another room separate from the speakers and I played my LPs very loud without issues..

    But now have my turntable and my speakers in the same room and I cannot play rock music at 100-105db without experiencing vibrations from the TT.

    There are free apps that you can download on your phone that let you measure the actual db level in your room.

    Any one of you with a TT can check out their experience and report back.

  35. #35

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Many moons ago I had my TT on a shelf that was screwed into the wall studs, it was not a load bearing wall. When I turned up the volume it was horrible. I wound up making a square shelf to put the table on, mounted 4 eye hooks in the ceiling (into the joists) and hung the shelf and table on 4 springs and chain I got at home depot. It worked like a charm. Good luck.

  36. #36

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    I once had my TT suspended from a wall but never played it that loud since I was living in an apartment.
    I also once had my TT in another room separate from the speakers and I played my LPs very loud without issues..

    But now have my turntable and my speakers in the same room and I cannot play rock music at 100-105db without experiencing vibrations from the TT.

    There are free apps that you can download on your phone that let you measure the actual db level in your room.

    Any one of you with a TT can check out their experience and report back.
    Hi Nico,

    I'm trying to follow the progression of this thread after becoming aware of its existence from a friend. Are you interested in possible solutions or are you just wanting someone to report back on their findings listening at 100-105dB (peaks?) or both?

    If you are looking for possible solutions, can you provide a bit more information? Here are a few practical question I'd ask:

    - For a practical application test scenario, can you list a couple of rock LPs (hopefully something I have in my archive) and track titles where you have experienced this issue so I can attempt to duplicate?

    - Can you explain the type vibrations you are talking about (This would be something like: a type of feedback that overloads the system and creates severe distortion or something else explained in a similar manor.)

    - Can you share the condition (or scenario) of one or more of your LPs where, within the music's performance, this occurs. (for example: 2:34 into LP xx track title xx, the vibrational feedback occurs, etc.)

    - If you listen to the same music at the same level setting on your preamp and you turn your subwoofers off, do you still get the same condition? (I'm not suggesting you stop using your sub. It's just a test case that could help provide additional information to help with identifying the effect under a different condition.)

    - Are you on a concrete or suspended floor?

    - What type of support (equipment rack, platforms, feet, etc.) do you have for your turntable?

    - Does your phonostage contain vacuum tubes?

    If you'd like to, or prefer to, discuss this offline, we can arrange that. We have a mutual friend that once lived in R. Va. when we first met many years ago. If your contact info hasn't changed, it is available to me. If it has changed, you can contact AC and ask him to send you my contact info.

    Dre

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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Hi Dre, are you still using the Minus-K under your Basis 'table?
    "Listening to Analogue music is an act of rebellion in a digital gulag" - Simon Yorke

  38. #38

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    Hi Dre, are you still using the Minus-K under your Basis 'table?
    Hi Rob,

    Yes. The Debut Vacuum is still sitting comfortably on my Minus K BM-1.

    Dre

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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Per your advice and that of others, I broke down and acquired a BM-8 for my Simon Yorke S10. I really had no choice since the Yorke is suspension-less and high mass. Im renting a house for now and the system resides on the 2nd level, footfalls were making vinyl replay well nigh impossible. I have a second SYD table on a wall shelf and its fairly immune from feedback and an interesting contrast, comparing two near-identical 'tables with different isolation solutions. I'll save you from speculating, the Minus-K was worth every cent and I got the nickel tour of the factory to boot.
    "Listening to Analogue music is an act of rebellion in a digital gulag" - Simon Yorke

  40. #40

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    Per your advice and that of others, I broke down and acquired a BM-8 for my Simon Yorke S10. I really had no choice since the Yorke is suspension-less and high mass. Im renting a house for now and the system resides on the 2nd level, footfalls were making vinyl replay well nigh impossible. I have a second SYD table on a wall shelf and its fairly immune from feedback and an interesting contrast, comparing two near-identical 'tables with different isolation solutions. I'll save you from speculating, the Minus-K was worth every cent and I got the nickel tour of the factory to boot.
    Rob,

    I'm happy to read that the suggestions from myself and others about looking into the Minus K platform was helpful. That's an excellent outcome for you and one couldn't ask for more. Thanks for sharing your situation. For those type of specific applications, the Minus K is highly effective at accomplishing the desired results, in my experience.

    Dre

  41. #41

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    Per your advice and that of others, I broke down and acquired a BM-8 for my Simon Yorke S10. I really had no choice since the Yorke is suspension-less and high mass. Im renting a house for now and the system resides on the 2nd level, footfalls were making vinyl replay well nigh impossible. I have a second SYD table on a wall shelf and its fairly immune from feedback and an interesting contrast, comparing two near-identical 'tables with different isolation solutions. I'll save you from speculating, the Minus-K was worth every cent and I got the nickel tour of the factory to boot.
    Rob-When you say your SY table is “high mass,” how much weight are we talking about?
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

  42. #42
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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Rob-When you say your SY table is “high mass,” how much weight are we talking about?
    78 lbs with plinth
    "Listening to Analogue music is an act of rebellion in a digital gulag" - Simon Yorke

  43. #43

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    78 lbs with plinth
    Thanks. My stereo room is upstairs in my house and I have had 3 tables on my SRA rack and never had issues with any of them. None of the tables have a suspension and they all have a different mass with my SX-8000 being the heaviest.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

  44. #44
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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Thanks. My stereo room is upstairs in my house and I have had 3 tables on my SRA rack and never had issues with any of them. None of the tables have a suspension and they all have a different mass with my SX-8000 being the heaviest.
    this is a 45 yr old tract house built with matchsticks and 50% of it is eaten away by termites. I had to store the records on the ground floor for fear of the 2nd floor coming down
    "Listening to Analogue music is an act of rebellion in a digital gulag" - Simon Yorke

  45. #45

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    this is a 45 yr old tract house built with matchsticks and 50% of it is eaten away by termites. I had to store the records on the ground floor for fear of the 2nd floor coming down
    Holy crap! Get out before the house caved in on you!
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

  46. #46

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Dre_J View Post
    Hi Nico,

    I'm trying to follow the progression of this thread after becoming aware of its existence from a friend. Are you interested in possible solutions or are you just wanting someone to report back on their findings listening at 100-105dB (peaks?) or both?

    If you are looking for possible solutions, can you provide a bit more information? Here are a few practical question I'd ask:

    - For a practical application test scenario, can you list a couple of rock LPs (hopefully something I have in my archive) and track titles where you have experienced this issue so I can attempt to duplicate?

    - Can you explain the type vibrations you are talking about (This would be something like: a type of feedback that overloads the system and creates severe distortion or something else explained in a similar manor.)

    - Can you share the condition (or scenario) of one or more of your LPs where, within the music's performance, this occurs. (for example: 2:34 into LP xx track title xx, the vibrational feedback occurs, etc.)

    - If you listen to the same music at the same level setting on your preamp and you turn your subwoofers off, do you still get the same condition? (I'm not suggesting you stop using your sub. It's just a test case that could help provide additional information to help with identifying the effect under a different condition.)

    - Are you on a concrete or suspended floor?

    - What type of support (equipment rack, platforms, feet, etc.) do you have for your turntable?

    - Does your phonostage contain vacuum tubes?

    If you'd like to, or prefer to, discuss this offline, we can arrange that. We have a mutual friend that once lived in R. Va. when we first met many years ago. If your contact info hasn't changed, it is available to me. If it has changed, you can contact AC and ask him to send you my contact info.

    Dre
    Hi Andre!
    Long time no see!! Nice to hear from you! I will call you tomorrow!
    Thanks!!

  47. #47
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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    By my reckoning, 'Dre has forgotten more about TT set-up than most of us can recall. Which is to say, when Dre speaks, you listen (he's also a gentleman to the T). I don't have that kind of patience, I'm not quite as fastidious as MEP but im also onto BS pretty quick...
    "Listening to Analogue music is an act of rebellion in a digital gulag" - Simon Yorke

  48. #48
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    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Photo of the current set up (or did I miss that)?

  49. #49

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    A big thank you to Dre_J for helping me finding a solution to the issue. The source of the problem was rumble coming from the TT. The low frequency noise produced by the TT was retro-fed to the TT and was being amplified when playing at very high-volume levels.

    As Dre_J pointed out, this is an issue that is fairly common in set ups installed in rooms with wooden joists. Under normal volume conditions, this is typically not an issue. However, at very high volumes, the vibration can move through the floor joists and up the rack and into the turntable creating feedback.

    After experimenting with different scenarios such as subs on/off, relocation of vibration dampers, loosening and/or tightening nuts holding the wood plank where the TT sits on, the issue was finally solved. As Dre_J put it, it came down to a combination of energy damping, absorption, and redistribution of the vibration away from the TT platform. Mind you, the rumble generated by the TT is inherent to the turntable and cannot go away. However, the vibration that it generates was managed in a way that it is now not an issue even at high-volume levels.

    Big kudos to Dre_J!! Thank you!!

  50. #50

    Re: Thoughts on Turntables and Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    A big thank you to Dre_J for helping me finding a solution to the issue. The source of the problem was rumble coming from the TT. The low frequency noise produced by the TT was retro-fed to the TT and was being amplified when playing at very high-volume levels.

    As Dre_J pointed out, this is an issue that is fairly common in set ups installed in rooms with wooden joists. Under normal volume conditions, this is typically not an issue. However, at very high volumes, the vibration can move through the floor joists and up the rack and into the turntable creating feedback.

    After experimenting with different scenarios such as subs on/off, relocation of vibration dampers, loosening and/or tightening nuts holding the wood plank where the TT sits on, the issue was finally solved. As Dre_J put it, it came down to a combination of energy damping, absorption, and redistribution of the vibration away from the TT platform. Mind you, the rumble generated by the TT is inherent to the turntable and cannot go away. However, the vibration that it generates was managed in a way that it is now not an issue even at high-volume levels.

    Big kudos to Dre_J!! Thank you!!
    Hi Nico, I'm happy we worked it out and found a solution for your specific situation. Now, you can enjoy all of your source components whenever you want to and without worry.

    Best regards,
    Dre

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