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  1. #1
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    Are they going to destroy audio?

    I saw a post over on another forum that echoed a concern I've had for awhile based on what we see happening around us.

    On that forum there were some people pushing class D amps with unsubstantiated claims that their "carbon footprint" is smaller than that of other amps to design and build and therefore we need to get rid of the other types of amps. Personally I don't care about the imaginary carbon footprint of my gear I care about how it sounds.

    I also see people in general posting about concern for how much energy Class A amps waste and therefore should be outlawed.

    What are your thoughts? Are these people going to destroy audio? I think of CA for instance that just outlawed the purchase of any new gas powered outdoor equipment. I can picture them coming for our amps next.

    Maybe I need a bumper sticker that reads "you can pry my tube amp from my cold dead hands" as a play of another famous saying? LOL. That could just be the Texas in me talking.

    ETA: This is NOT meant to talk about the political issues - just the real concern of them ruining audio. As an example - Luxman has stopped producing their 590 class A amp due to this issue. So it's real.
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  2. #2
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    I would say the opposite. Class 'D' amps are used in everything from extremely small hearing aids & cell-phones to the largest audio amps. The designs and chips have been refined for some decades now.

  3. #3
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    My last few amps have been Class D (I have one in a back-up system) too. Are they on par with the super high end like Boulder, Gryphon, etc. No of course not. But I had a Class A/AB amp that is still current and lists for $11k and in my system it is no contest. I had another well know brand where the Class A/AB amp listed for around the same (which I had about 10 years back) and the Class D I have blows it out of the water in my system.

    So for me it's not so much the green issue. I am on the grid but I have solar panels integrated in the roof tiles (was done when the house was built). It's the fact I'll be 71 in a few months and the warranty is expiring on some of me. So I was really happy to have amps that outperform what I have had and don't come with the free hernia. I just had a new screen (120 inch) installed yesterday (I have an integrated AV system) and will be waiting a few months for the ultra short throw projector I want to be released. My painter is here now and just helped me moved my partially disassembled rack into place. It is 350 pounds fully assembled and probably over 200 pounds before I put the rest of it together.

    Personally, I think some people just over react to the green thing. For example purely electric cars (I currently have a hybrid Lexus RX450h, which doesn't plug in and am waiting for the new RX 350h which also doesn't plug in) result in lots of problems, including the disposable of lithium batteries, charge locations and charge times and where the electricity comes from (not to mention the extra weight of the vehicle which can be an issue for others in accidents and if they catch on fire as well as how cobalt is mined for those batteries - DR Congo cobalt miners work in treacherous conditions - YouTube)

    So I wouldn't really worry about the ultra high end getting crushed by Class D in the near term. I do think we will see more powered speakers where one just plugs in the source in a few years.
    Main System - Lumin U1, Modwright LS36.5 DM Preamp, LSA modded LSA Voyager Amp, EMM Labs DAC 2X (ver. 2), Torus RM-20, Thiel CS 3.7s, 2 Rel S/812 subs
    Back-up 1 - Premium Audio mini Gan Amp, Oppo 103D, 2 Richard Gray cond, Selah SA-2s, Sumiko S5 sub, Teac UD-503 DAC, Carver (modded) C-9
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  4. #4
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
    I would say the opposite. Class 'D' amps are used in everything from extremely small hearing aids & cell-phones to the largest audio amps. The designs and chips have been refined for some decades now.
    It is certainly well used, but most people agree it is not audiophile ready.

    Shouldn't it be up to a person whether they like the sound of Class D and be able to CHOOSE it over the other designs vs being forced on them?
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  5. #5
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    I saw a post over on another forum that echoed a concern I've had for awhile based on what we see happening around us.

    On that forum there were some people pushing class D amps with unsubstantiated claims that their "carbon footprint" is smaller than that of other amps to design and build and therefore we need to get rid of the other types of amps. Personally I don't care about the imaginary carbon footprint of my gear I care about how it sounds.

    I also see people in general posting about concern for how much energy Class A amps waste and therefore should be outlawed.

    What are your thoughts? Are these people going to destroy audio? I think of CA for instance that just outlawed the purchase of any new gas powered outdoor equipment. I can picture them coming for our amps next.

    Maybe I need a bumper sticker that reads "you can pry my tube amp from my cold dead hands" as a play of another famous saying? LOL. That could just be the Texas in me talking.

    ETA: This is NOT meant to talk about the political issues - just the real concern of them ruining audio. As an example - Luxman has stopped producing their 590 class A amp due to this issue. So it's real.
    Don't you care a jot for the Environment?

    Has anyone suggested that Class A and tube amps should be outlawed?

    Have you actually given modern Class D a proper trial in your own home?

    Everything from cars to vacuum cleaners (already limited to 900 watts in EU), and maybe hi-fi in the future will be experiencing restrictions regarding their excessive use of power.

    Nothing will be "banned" from being used (petrol and diesel cars will continue to be seen on the road until they become unroadworthy), but one should expect inefficient audio kit to be withdrawn and new products to be much more considerate of the environment.

    Already as Ralph at Atmosphere has accepted, Class D is here to stay and has designed his latest amp using Class D technology.

    Look forward not backwards. Or you'll become a dinosaur
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M33 all-in-one, NAD M12 preamp
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  6. #6
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    Are they going to destroy audio?

    Haven’t we been hearing about the great Class D revolution in high end audio for decades?

    Didn’t Rowland just switch back to Class AB because his customers “will never accept class D”?

    The GAN technology DOES sound good and the AGD amps using GAN inside tubes made with Silica/Quartz likely imparts a pleasing property on the sound as well.

    But I have never, ever, ever in 8 years had a customer ask for a Class D amp. Ever.

    So, before we proclaim class D as the second coming (for the 23rd time), I think there has to be a huge market shift and acceptance, along with more convincing products (like the AGD’s).

    Speaking of Class D, whatever happened to the NERD, I mean NORD amps that were going to replace everyone’s tube and and Class A amps and were all the rage a few years ago?

    Crickets…


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  7. #7
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    Don't you care a jot for the Environment?

    Has anyone suggested that Class A and tube amps should be outlawed?

    Have you actually given modern Class D a proper trial in your own home?

    Everything from cars to vacuum cleaners (already limited to 900 watts in EU), and maybe hi-fi in the future will be experiencing restrictions regarding their excessive use of power.

    Nothing will be "banned" from being used (petrol and diesel cars will continue to be seen on the road until they become unroadworthy), but one should expect inefficient audio kit to be withdrawn and new products to be much more considerate of the environment.

    Already as Ralph at Atmosphere has accepted, Class D is here to stay and has designed his latest amp using Class D technology.

    Look forward not backwards. Or you'll become a dinosaur

    Actually, California just passed a law banning the sale of all gas powered cars and OPE equipment.

    Yes I have heard class D. It pretty much sounds sterile and lifeless to me.

    I'm not going to debate statements such as "excessive use of power" when it is such an arbitrary and made up factless statement that is twisted for political purposes.

    I have nothing against Class D so I'm glad it's here to stay. Just don't force me to by something based on fake info.

    I also don't respond to the argument of two prisims regarding the "don't you care for the environment" schtick.

    ETA:

    PARIS, Oct 12 (Reuters) - Paris authorities plan to banish all petrol- and diesel-fueled cars from the world's most visited city by 2030, Paris City Hall said on Thursday.
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  8. #8
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    When the people pushing Green are flying in Electric Private Jets, driving in Electric Limos, and living in a fully Green House, I will start paying attention to anything with Green associated with it.
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  9. #9

    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Actually, California just passed a law banning the sale of all gas powered cars and OPE equipment.

    Yes I have heard class D. It pretty much sounds sterile and lifeless to me.

    I'm not going to debate statements such as "excessive use of power" when it is such an arbitrary and made up factless statement that is twisted for political purposes.

    I have nothing against Class D so I'm glad it's here to stay. Just don't force me to by something based on fake info.

    I also don't respond to the argument of two prisims regarding the "don't you care for the environment" schtick.

    ETA:

    PARIS, Oct 12 (Reuters) - Paris authorities plan to banish all petrol- and diesel-fueled cars from the world's most visited city by 2030, Paris City Hall said on Thursday.
    Which Class D amplifiers have you heard? Recent models or from years ago?

    I don’t agree they all sound sterile.
    Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
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  10. #10
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    I saw a post over on another forum that echoed a concern I've had for awhile based on what we see happening around us.

    On that forum there were some people pushing class D amps with unsubstantiated claims that their "carbon footprint" is smaller than that of other amps to design and build and therefore we need to get rid of the other types of amps. Personally I don't care about the imaginary carbon footprint of my gear I care about how it sounds.

    I also see people in general posting about concern for how much energy Class A amps waste and therefore should be outlawed.

    What are your thoughts? Are these people going to destroy audio? I think of CA for instance that just outlawed the purchase of any new gas powered outdoor equipment. I can picture them coming for our amps next.

    Maybe I need a bumper sticker that reads "you can pry my tube amp from my cold dead hands" as a play of another famous saying? LOL. That could just be the Texas in me talking.
    I just got a battery powered lawnmower. I really like it - its way easier to store, its lighter, no dealing with gas and gas spills or realizing I have to go to the gas station to get more gas to mow. It can easily mow the entire lawn a couple of times on one charge, and it has a space for a second battery. So much easier!! but the really nice thing is not only is it way easier to start (and my Lawnboy typically started on the first pull) but its a lot quieter. Something to think about for an audiophile...

    Regarding class D, I've yet to hear a solid state class A or AB amp that sounds as relaxed, as 3D and lifelike as the class D amps I'm playing in my system. They sound remarkably similar to the class A OTLs I used to play but they are more transparent.

    I get why you aren't interested in class D: I've heard some that were pretty dreadful, lifeless and the like and left me wondering if they were really serious. But take this for what its worth, there's more variance in the sound of class D amps than there is from the worst tube amp to the best. That's a really wide range. My guess is you heard some class D that was similar to some I've heard in the past and like me, left a bad taste.

    The reason I went to class D was not energy or the environment, it was the sound. Happily, it takes less energy to build a set, less energy to run and after playing all day in my system are stone cold. Compared to the OTLs I used to run that's a bonus since the air conditioning isn't dealing with the extra heat in the summer. The amps are smaller too and I don't have to worry about my GF cleaning things up and cracking a tube by accident or any such thing. IMO tube power amps are on borrowed time.

    Like any tech, class D was sent out into the field a bit too quickly before the bugs were worked out. And if I'm being honest, a lot of them still have bugs. So I get your concern, but really I wouldn't worry about it.

  11. #11
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    I just got a battery powered lawnmower. I really like it - its way easier to store, its lighter, no dealing with gas and gas spills or realizing I have to go to the gas station to get more gas to mow. It can easily mow the entire lawn a couple of times on one charge, and it has a space for a second battery. So much easier!! but the really nice thing is not only is it way easier to start (and my Lawnboy typically started on the first pull) but its a lot quieter. Something to think about for an audiophile...

    Regarding class D, I've yet to hear a solid state class A or AB amp that sounds as relaxed, as 3D and lifelike as the class D amps I'm playing in my system. They sound remarkably similar to the class A OTLs I used to play but they are more transparent.

    I get why you aren't interested in class D: I've heard some that were pretty dreadful, lifeless and the like and left me wondering if they were really serious. But take this for what its worth, there's more variance in the sound of class D amps than there is from the worst tube amp to the best. That's a really wide range. My guess is you heard some class D that was similar to some I've heard in the past and like me, left a bad taste.

    The reason I went to class D was not energy or the environment, it was the sound. Happily, it takes less energy to build a set, less energy to run and after playing all day in my system are stone cold. Compared to the OTLs I used to run that's a bonus since the air conditioning isn't dealing with the extra heat in the summer. The amps are smaller too and I don't have to worry about my GF cleaning things up and cracking a tube by accident or any such thing. IMO tube power amps are on borrowed time.

    Like any tech, class D was sent out into the field a bit too quickly before the bugs were worked out. And if I'm being honest, a lot of them still have bugs. So I get your concern, but really I wouldn't worry about it.

    I tried a battery lawn mower and while nice and light, it did not have the power nor the run time to mow my Zeon Zoysia grass this year so I had to go back to a gas powered mower.

    I tried 4 battery blowers and there is not a battery blower made that has the power of gas nor the run time that allows me to clean up my yard.

    I agree with you that whether it be battery powered OPE or Class D it works for some and not for others. That is the great thing about CHOICE vs the arbitrary heavy hand of having your choices taken away from you - but never from them (they still fly around on their own private jets everywhere or have the huge SUV's).
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  12. #12
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor View Post
    Which Class D amplifiers have you heard? Recent models or from years ago?

    I don’t agree they all sound sterile.
    Hi Myles - you summed up my point perfectly. You hear them differently than I do. Thus the great thing about choice and choosing what you like and what sounds good to you, vs someone else forcing you what to buy based on arbitrary made up info.
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  13. #13
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    You'll def be seeing a lot more SMPS replacing LPS in all audio gear. They are 'smart' by design and use a lot less elec. Chord, Rowland, Soulution and many others already use them. It further eliminates the need to make 3 or 4 versions of the same product instead just one that is adaptable to any mains voltage worldwide.

  14. #14
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    I tried a battery lawn mower and while nice and light, it did not have the power nor the run time to mow my Zeon Zoysia grass this year so I had to go back to a gas powered mower.

    I tried 4 battery blowers and there is not a battery blower made that has the power of gas nor the run time that allows me to clean up my yard.
    not so quick on the power of battery leaf blowers, E-Go's top of the line out performs 90% of all gas blowers out there. Only the best backpack blowers produce more CFM's. Too many people get hung up on mph whereas CFM is the real indicator.

    As for Class D amps, I had the opportunity awhile back to audition one of Rogue's Hybrid Class D amps, I came away quite satisfied. When I downsize it will for sure be on my radar
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  15. #15
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post

    Like any tech, class D was sent out into the field a bit too quickly before the bugs were worked out. And if I'm being honest, a lot of them still have bugs. So I get your concern, but really I wouldn't worry about it.
    I guess Micheal is still using film in his cameras and watches Super 8 film. Great stuff film and some argue better than digital, but most people have accepted that digital (in both photography, video and now audio) has developed to the stage where it's becoming daft to consider anything else.
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M33 all-in-one, NAD M12 preamp
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo XD, Avantgarde Duo (2006) - both aesthetically modified

  16. #16
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
    not so quick on the power of battery leaf blowers, E-Go's top of the line out performs 90% of all gas blowers out there. Only the best backpack blowers produce more CFM's. Too many people get hung up on mph whereas CFM is the real indicator.

    AS for Class D amps, I had the opportunity awhile back to audition one of Rogue's Hybrid Class D amps, I came away quite satisfied. When I downsize it will for sure be on my radar
    I'm not being quick. I owned a landscaping business so I know a thing or two about blowers and have literally tired and use more than most people can count.

    The Ego backpack is rated at 600 CFM. This is mediocre by most backpack blower standards so not sure where you picked the "90%" number out of thin air.

    You then need to spend hundreds and hundreds on extra batteries for any meaningful run time. Redmax, Echo and Stihl backpack blowers smoke the Ego both in CFM and Newton meters force along with overall real world performance.

    Now, back to audio gear....
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  17. #17
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    I'm not being quick. I owned a landscaping business so I know a thing or two about blowers and have literally tired and use more than most people can count.

    The Ego backpack is rated at 600 CFM. This is mediocre by most backpack blower standards so not sure where you picked the "90%" number out of thin air.

    You then need to spend hundreds and hundreds on extra batteries for any meaningful run time. Redmax, Echo and Stihl backpack blowers smoke the Ego both in CFM and Newton meters force along with overall real world performance.

    Now, back to audio gear....
    I said 'the best backpack blowers' and yes in your biz they are the blower of choice but for 'Joe homeowner' not at all, majority of home owners own hand held.

    back to audio, I'd love to sit you down to a good DBT test on a top Class D amp vs one from the A/B camp, hell I'd like to participate in one myself !
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  18. #18
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post

    But I have never, ever, ever in 8 years had a customer ask for a Class D amp. Ever.

    But Mike - do you actually stock any Class D gear? If you don't offer Class D (or didn't stock tube gear), I can fully understand that no one would be coming to you to ask for it. They'd go to someone who does stock these things.
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M33 all-in-one, NAD M12 preamp
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo XD, Avantgarde Duo (2006) - both aesthetically modified

  19. #19
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    I guess Micheal is still using film in his cameras and watches Super 8 film. Great stuff film and some argue better than digital, but most people have accepted that digital (in both photography, video and now audio) has developed to the stage where it's becoming daft to consider anything else.
    Still stuck on the idea of two prisms?

    I notice you are making many of the same arguments you did on the other forum where people shut you down pretty hard. And you loved calling anyone who disagreed with you daft over there as well.

    I like where you said this: " Class A and valve amps are endangered species in the same way petrol and diesel cars are. They'll continue for several years but it'll be increasingly seen as anti-social to use them and models will gradually disappear as electric cars (and Class D amps) continue to improve."

    Anti-social to use?

    It's pretty interesting your argument over there seems to be it doesn't matter what people want and like, they need to accept what YOU want them to accept. How very anti-social.
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  20. #20
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    But Mike - do you actually stock any Class D gear? If you don't offer Class D (or didn't stock tube gear), I can fully understand that no one would be coming to you to ask for it. They'd go to someone who does stock these things.
    Good point, kinda like who goes into a Bugatti dealer looking for a used Corvette .............
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  21. #21
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
    I said 'the best backpack blowers' and yes in your biz they are the blower of choice but for 'Joe homeowner' not at all, majority of home owners own hand held.

    back to audio, I'd love to sit you down to a good DBT test on a top Class D amp vs one from the A/B camp, hell I'd like to participate in one myself !
    Why is it when someone disagrees with the ASR crowd they always fall back on the false DBT argument? Like you have any idea what we have and haven't done, and then you assume everything we've experienced is false and you can fix it with a supposed DBT. LOL

    Oh, and most gas backpack blowers beats the Ego battery and are less expensive to own for home owners so they don't need to spend crazy money on extra batteries.

    I get it, your ears can't tell the difference between Class D and other amps. That's OK but don't force inferior sound on the rest of us and blame our different hearing on some supposed lack of DBT when you have no idea what we have or haven't done.
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  22. #22
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    But Mike - do you actually stock any Class D gear? If you don't offer Class D (or didn't stock tube gear), I can fully understand that no one would be coming to you to ask for it. They'd go to someone who does stock these things.
    That makes no sense. People don't know EVERY item he stocks so they are going to ASK him if he has it. Hence he would get asked if there was actually a demand for it (which there clearly isn't except for 3 or 4 people). It's not like he has a sign out front that says "No Class D gear so don't bother asking".
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  23. #23
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
    Good point, kinda like who goes into a Bugatti dealer looking for a used Corvette .............
    The Ferrari dealership up the street from me, which has a big Ferrari sign out front, also sells used Porsches, Aston's, Mercedes, and yes ever Corvette's. Go figure.
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  24. #24

    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Boy, this thread deteriorated faster than I thought!

    It helps to keep an open mind. I recall participating in car forums where ANY vehicle mandate was seen as the end of civilization. That included safety belts, mileage per gallon requirements, chemical requirements for gas to control emissions, catalytic converters, you name it! Yet today we are able to drive the fastest, safest, and most environmentally-friendly vehicles ever manufactured. So... it is good to keep an open mind as technology is always changing.

    Class D amplifiers are everywhere! Soon, I believe, more and more speaker manufacturers will be making active speakers with built-in Class D amp and a DAC. The benefits are many. The most obvious: one box instead of three!

  25. #25
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Myles or Phil, maybe you could suggest brands of Class D you feel can compete with A/B. The closest I've heard was the current Bel Canto E1X, unfortunately the next step up wasn't available and the E1X didn't convince me to take a chance on the purchase without hearing one. I've also had Merrill Audio Veritas in my system, good amps but just didn't do it for me.

    I'd love to hear the Class D amp that satisfies me but that hasn't happened yet. Those who claim Class D sounds better clearly listen to a different aspect of music than me. Something about Class D leaves it less convincing than A/B or A. I mean your system has to be engaging to you the listener, I've declined amps with better certain attributes but wasn't as engaging to me as what I was using. So Class D can be extremely transparent but lack it that something that engages me, it's still no good, transparency is just one of many aspects. Really, when it comes donw to it no matter the class of amp being compared the one you like most comes down to the one with less compromises.

    I really don't think anyone will have audio gear on their radar for let's go green. Less of a concern than jet exhaust or cow farts. I'm no expert but I'd also bet there's items in your home that still use more electric than your power amp, using a realistic comparison.
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  26. #26
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post

    I really don't think anyone will have audio gear on their radar for let's go green. Less of a concern than jet exhaust or cow farts. I'm no expert but I'd also bet there's items in your home that still use more electric than your power amp, using a realistic comparison.
    I hope you are right. However it has already become enough of a concern that Luxman stopped making their 590 Class A integrateds and they openly stated its due to environmental regulations.
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  27. #27
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Why is it when someone disagrees with the ASR crowd they always fall back on the false DBT argument? Like you have any idea what we have and haven't done, and then you assume everything we've experienced is false and you can fix it with a supposed DBT. LOL
    you are so full of yourself it's pathetic, go cut your grass !!

    Oh, and most gas backpack blowers beats the Ego battery and are less expensive to own for home owners so they don't need to spend crazy money on extra batteries.
    Put your crack pipe down kid ........

    I get it, your ears can't tell the difference between Class D and other amps. That's OK but don't force inferior sound on the rest of us and blame our different hearing on some supposed lack of DBT when you have no idea what we have or haven't done.
    spoken like a true audiofool , where did you get your engineering degree from ?
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  28. #28
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post


    Class D amplifiers are everywhere! Soon, I believe, more and more speaker manufacturers will be making active speakers with built-in Class D amp and a DAC. The benefits are many. The most obvious: one box instead of three!
    I think we are saying the same thing - if the market wants it and if they can get Class D sounding consistently to a point that can replace class a/b, class a and tubes, then great. However let market forces drive this and not false outside forces.
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  29. #29

    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    I think we are saying the same thing - if the market wants it and if they can get Class D sounding consistently to a point that can replace class a/b, class a and tubes, then great. However let market forces drive this and not false outside forces.
    I am not sure that we are. I have no beef against Class D amplifiers.

  30. #30

    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    We're not a big enough market for anyone to worry about the energy "wasted" on class A and tube gear. In the grand scheme of things, our amps' impact is not significant. So many things would have to go before us - e.g. the gals and their millions of hair-dryers, hair-irons, and space heaters (damn they love space heaters). Anyways, I'm sick of hearing products advertised as "sustainable" - it's not a "feature" I value or decide based on.

    I'm not altogether against class D, but I'm happy with my tube amps and A/B SS amps here, so no real need desire to explore them. I get that class D may have "arrived" with the latest iterations but then they've been saying that for years (much like the digital vs analog debate).

  31. #31
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by mulveling View Post
    We're not a big enough market for anyone to worry about the energy "wasted" on class A and tube gear. In the grand scheme of things, our amps' impact is not significant. So many things would have to go before us - e.g. the gals and their millions of hair-dryers, hair-irons, and space heaters (damn they love space heaters). Anyways, I'm sick of hearing products advertised as "sustainable" - it's not a "feature" I value or decide based on.

    I'm not altogether against class D, but I'm happy with my tube amps and A/B SS amps here, so no real need desire to explore them. I get that class D may have "arrived" with the latest iterations but then they've been saying that for years (much like the digital vs analog debate).
    I hope you're right. Someone should tell Luxman as they already have stopped making Class A integrateds and they squarely lay the blame on environmental regulations.
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  32. #32
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    > Someone should tell Luxman as they already have stopped making Class A integrateds and they squarely lay the blame on environmental regulations.

    Perhaps some (obviously including Luxman themselves) would substitute your word "blame" to "credit".
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  33. #33
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    If there are any A/V equipment energy directives in the works, they'll probably come from the EU.
    The EU eco design directive is already impacting consumer product development.

    The EU has published energy requirements for set top boxes, home networking equipment, external power supplies, and televisions, among others. There is some concern that these regulations for TV's will limit the sale of 8K and some 4K sets in EU.

    We have for many years had rules on standby and off power consumption for audio and AV gear among many other consumer appliances.

    This has driven design changes in a lot of audio equipment. One example is non-use power off timers, which are now required in most if not all amplifier products sold in the EU.

    None of the external linear power supplies popular with audiophiles meet the EU requirements today. Not one. Yet they are openly sold. More on this later. **

    It would be easy for regulators to set power consumption limits on AV and audio amplifiers and receivers.
    These power limits could be written in such a way as to eliminate the sale of all Class A and AB amplifiers using standard linear power supplies. At their tightest, they may allow only Class D amps driven by switchmode power supplies. This would be easy to do as the efficiencies of all these amplifiers are well known in the art.

    This, in turn, would cause audiophile heads to spontaneously explode globally, reducing the market for linear class A amplifiers to zero. Problem solved.

    ** In order to get the attention of regulators, the market has to be big enough to make a dent in consumption. High end audio is a tiny market.
    Tom

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  34. #34
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Hi Myles - you summed up my point perfectly. You hear them differently than I do. Thus the great thing about choice and choosing what you like and what sounds good to you, vs someone else forcing you what to buy based on arbitrary made up info.
    FWIW that isn't what Myles said. He said 'I don’t agree they all sound sterile.' (emphasis added) You've clearly not heard all the class D amps that exist. Myles was stating what I stated, which is not all class D amps sound the same.

    Some sound really dry and sterile, some sound liquid and musical. All that is happening here is that you've not heard the right one yet. Plain and simple.

  35. #35

    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    I have been using a NAD digital amp for some time with impressive sound quality. I have ordered the new McIntosh M1502 digital amp I plan to use with a McIntosh D150 Pre/DAC and new PMC speakers. I expect the sound quality to be consistent with but much more convenient than a 800 pound gorilla amp.
    McIntosh MC462, D150, MCT500 - PMC MB2 Se - Klipsch Palladium P-37F / P-312W- Wireworld

  36. #36
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    All that is happening here is that you've not heard the right one yet. Plain and simple.

    I see you've taken the Steve Jobs approach of "you're holding it the wrong way".

    Why is the ASR crowd so insistent they know better than our own ears what we like and don't like and they know better than us? So what if we hear things differently.

    And to state again, this is NOT about Class D vs the world but the ASR/Class D people have tried to make it into that.
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  37. #37
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiker View Post
    I have been using a NAD digital amp for some time with impressive sound quality. I have ordered the new McIntosh M1502 digital amp I plan to use with a McIntosh D150 Pre/DAC and new PMC speakers. I expect the sound quality to be consistent with but much more convenient than a 800 pound gorilla amp.
    And that is the great part of you as a consumer being able to CHOOSE what you want and like vs some knuckle head worried you're sucking too many imaginary made up "excessive" watts number.
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  38. #38
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    I see you've taken the Steve Jobs approach of "you're holding it the wrong way" that made him the laughing stock of the world.

    Why is the ASR crowd so insistent they know better than our own ears what we like and don't like and they know better than us? So what if we hear things differently.

    And to state again, this is NOT about Class D vs the world but the ASR/Class D people have tried to make it into that.
    Sadly you are living in Cloud Cuckoo Land and don't seem to want to even consider calmly and logically what others are saying. For a self-appointed online "expert" of audio you deserve to lose the few viewers you may have with your blinkered and bizarre opinions - but everyone is entitled to an opinion however misguided!

    Who is the "ASR crowd" you mention? Why do you think that those with contrary views to your own (most of us here it seems) are members of this ASR crowd?

    Keeping an ear reasonably close to the ground, I suspect you are referring to an obscure audio forum bearing those initials. Well, certainly I'm no fan of that rag and I doubt many here are. Members here seem to have their feet firmly on the ground and simply want to listen to music as well as it can be reproduced in the home. I get the impression that ASR members are more interested in creating graphs and pawing over measurement fact and figures that often have no realistic bearing on what the thing actually sounds like!

    So please stop harping on about how dreadful Class D is and find something more constructive to occupy your time. That's all I have to say on the matter as I'm unhappy being harassed by trolls. Am I being unreasonable? Many thanks and goodbye.
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  39. #39
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Dude why do you keep bringing up Audio Science Review site on here? This is Audio Shark. We are here because we are different than ASR. Your constant crusade on this makes you sound just like the ASR crowd.


    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    I see you've taken the Steve Jobs approach of "you're holding it the wrong way".

    Why is the ASR crowd so insistent they know better than our own ears what we like and don't like and they know better than us? So what if we hear things differently.

    And to state again, this is NOT about Class D vs the world but the ASR/Class D people have tried to make it into that.
    Marty

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  40. #40
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by nc42acc View Post
    Dude why do you keep bringing up Audio Science Review site on here? This is Audio Shark. We are here because we are different than ASR. Your constant crusade on this makes you sound just like the ASR crowd.
    Hi Marty,

    It's pretty simple - because they are acting just like them, and if you read the posts that kind of thinking is shared by some people here as well.

    They don't care what WE hear or what WE like. They think they know better than us and proceed to lecture us how we can't possibly know what we like for ourselves. I mean, who thinks that way???

    Look at some of these replies on this thread: they want to know where our engineering degree is from as if we need one to know what we like. Or they say if we DBT (an ASR thinking favorite) then we will see the error of our ways (as if they have any clue what we have and have not done). Or they say its our fault for not having heard the right class D amp, and if we do then we will be ok with them taking away our ability to choose what we like.

    Then some of the replies on this thread openly admit they know better than us on what gear we should be allowed to own based on made up nonsense such as some imaginary made up "excessive watts" number? Or being told it will become anti-social to own a Class A amp (my favorite). Isn't that against everything this hobby is about - being TOLD what you will like and what you will be allowed to own? THAT is the issue I originally posted about.

    But the Class D fanboys had to turn this into amp-class-warfare thread and couldn't simply respect some of us aren't fans of class D. I mean, the NERVE of us to have a differing opinion and wanting to save consumer choice! How dare we! LOL

    There are a group of people that can't simply accept that others may have a differing opinion. I welcome anyone to buy any amp, or class of amp they like. It's that simple. I don't pretend to know what you will or won't like. Yet somehow wanting to be able to preserve that ability has upset a select few know-it-alls that can't respect other peoples likes. How very intolerant and anti-audio.
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  41. #41
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    I see you've taken the Steve Jobs approach of "you're holding it the wrong way".

    Why is the ASR crowd so insistent they know better than our own ears what we like and don't like and they know better than us? So what if we hear things differently.

    And to state again, this is NOT about Class D vs the world but the ASR/Class D people have tried to make it into that.
    WRT the Jobs thing, no, that's not what I'm up to here.

    WRT ASR, you'll have to ask them. In case you think I'm only all about the measurements you're incorrect. I'm more in the Daniel Recklinghausen camp of 'if it measures well and sounds bad, its bad. If it measures poorly but sounds good, you measured the wrong thing.'

    That is somewhere between the dug in heels of both the subjectivist and objectivist camps.

    I'm not trying to say your ears don't work!

    The reason I have class D amps in my system is because they sound better and nothing else. Keeping in mind of course that as a manufacturer I've been producing zero feedback class A triode fully differential and balanced OTLs for nearly 50 years. I know that's a mouthful but in a nutshell I did that because they sounded better than anything else I could get my hands on. Better than SETs (although they are not as romantic, being more neutral) better than ARC (not as dry,,,) and so on. Now I'm listening to a class D amp that sounds better than my triode amps and you're trying to make that out as if I'm straight off of ASR for a world tour?

    Now here comes the technical bit that you may not like to hear. Carver hinted at this about 25-30 years ago. Its this: that 'sonic signature' you hear in your amp is its distortion signature. You might think that distortion isn't audible and if you do, you're playing right into the hands of the ASR folks despite your remonstrations. Distortion is nearly always audible (if the equipment isn't outright clipping) as a tonality. This is simply because the ear converts all forms of distortion into tonality. That ever-loving tube 'warmth' is caused by the 2nd and 3rd harmonics being able to mask higher orders. The dryness and harshness of solid state is those higher orders not masked.

    Some of this stuff is measurable- but the ASR people so far as I've been able to make out haven't been able to sort out how the ear responds to distortion, so they don't realize its responsible for a 'sound'.

    You can ignore this if you like. But its pretty obvious from some of the other posts here that you missed something or are intentionally ignoring it, and that thing has nothing to do with ASR.

    So where I'm going with this is that if you have a tube amp with a certain distortion spectra, you can get another amp to sound just like it if you can get the same distortion spectra. The ASR people don't want to have any 'sound' at all but in my experience of 50 years or so, distortion is simply never going to go away, and I've come to the opinion that the ear is far more sensitive to it than anyone at ASR gives it credit for. But audiophiles that listen for a 'sound' already know that, they just don't know that the main thing causing that 'sound' is distortion whether the amp is tube or transistor.

    So the class D amp I play has a distortion spectra that is very similar to that of our triode OTLs and as a result sounds a lot like them, but is more transparent (that's the big tell BTW) owing to lower overall distortion. I'm not from ASR. Don't shoot me.

  42. #42
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    WRT the Jobs thing, no, that's not what I'm up to here.

    WRT ASR, you'll have to ask them. In case you think I'm only all about the measurements you're incorrect. I'm more in the Daniel Recklinghausen camp of 'if it measures well and sounds bad, its bad. If it measures poorly but sounds good, you measured the wrong thing.'

    That is somewhere between the dug in heels of both the subjectivist and objectivist camps.

    I'm not trying to say your ears don't work!

    The reason I have class D amps in my system is because they sound better and nothing else. Keeping in mind of course that as a manufacturer I've been producing zero feedback class A triode fully differential and balanced OTLs for nearly 50 years. I know that's a mouthful but in a nutshell I did that because they sounded better than anything else I could get my hands on. Better than SETs (although they are not as romantic, being more neutral) better than ARC (not as dry,,,) and so on. Now I'm listening to a class D amp that sounds better than my triode amps and you're trying to make that out as if I'm straight off of ASR for a world tour?

    Now here comes the technical bit that you may not like to hear. Carver hinted at this about 25-30 years ago. Its this: that 'sonic signature' you hear in your amp is its distortion signature. You might think that distortion isn't audible and if you do, you're playing right into the hands of the ASR folks despite your remonstrations. Distortion is nearly always audible (if the equipment isn't outright clipping) as a tonality. This is simply because the ear converts all forms of distortion into tonality. That ever-loving tube 'warmth' is caused by the 2nd and 3rd harmonics being able to mask higher orders. The dryness and harshness of solid state is those higher orders not masked.

    Some of this stuff is measurable- but the ASR people so far as I've been able to make out haven't been able to sort out how the ear responds to distortion, so they don't realize its responsible for a 'sound'.

    You can ignore this if you like. But its pretty obvious from some of the other posts here that you missed something or are intentionally ignoring it, and that thing has nothing to do with ASR.

    So where I'm going with this is that if you have a tube amp with a certain distortion spectra, you can get another amp to sound just like it if you can get the same distortion spectra. The ASR people don't want to have any 'sound' at all but in my experience of 50 years or so, distortion is simply never going to go away, and I've come to the opinion that the ear is far more sensitive to it than anyone at ASR gives it credit for. But audiophiles that listen for a 'sound' already know that, they just don't know that the main thing causing that 'sound' is distortion whether the amp is tube or transistor.

    So the class D amp I play has a distortion spectra that is very similar to that of our triode OTLs and as a result sounds a lot like them, but is more transparent (that's the big tell BTW) owing to lower overall distortion. I'm not from ASR. Don't shoot me.
    Hi - thanks for posting. I do appreciate it.

    You keep on making this about class D amps and again I couldn't care less about class D amps as this is not about that.

    I've explained what it is about multiple times and ways (including in my post you quote above) and you just can't seem to grasp what this is about. I am sorry this is so difficult for you to understand and don't know how to help you or be any more clear.

    Thank you.
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  43. #43
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Having flashbacks to The Octopus.
    Morgan

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  44. #44
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MPW View Post
    Having flashbacks to The Octopus.
    too funny, I miss Serge !
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  45. #45
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Honestly, this debate, that got kicked off on another site that's famous for such, to me resembles a debate on the importance of swatting a gnat vs. a fly on an elephant's ass. As always, YMMV.

  46. #46

    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Hi Marty,

    It's pretty simple - because they are acting just like them, and if you read the posts that kind of thinking is shared by some people here as well.

    They don't care what WE hear or what WE like. They think they know better than us and proceed to lecture us how we can't possibly know what we like for ourselves. I mean, who thinks that way???

    Look at some of these replies on this thread: they want to know where our engineering degree is from as if we need one to know what we like. Or they say if we DBT (an ASR thinking favorite) then we will see the error of our ways (as if they have any clue what we have and have not done). Or they say its our fault for not having heard the right class D amp, and if we do then we will be ok with them taking away our ability to choose what we like.

    Then some of the replies on this thread openly admit they know better than us on what gear we should be allowed to own based on made up nonsense such as some imaginary made up "excessive watts" number? Or being told it will become anti-social to own a Class A amp (my favorite). Isn't that against everything this hobby is about - being TOLD what you will like and what you will be allowed to own? THAT is the issue I originally posted about.

    But the Class D fanboys had to turn this into amp-class-warfare thread and couldn't simply respect some of us aren't fans of class D. I mean, the NERVE of us to have a differing opinion and wanting to save consumer choice! How dare we! LOL

    There are a group of people that can't simply accept that others may have a differing opinion. I welcome anyone to buy any amp, or class of amp they like. It's that simple. I don't pretend to know what you will or won't like. Yet somehow wanting to be able to preserve that ability has upset a select few know-it-alls that can't respect other peoples likes. How very intolerant and anti-audio.
    Is that the royal "We"?
    EMM/Ayre/Aqua/Aurender/MBL/Luxman/W4S/Absolare/AGD/NAD/Classe/Bayz/Fleetwood/Revel/B&W/Audience/Echole/Puritan Audio Labs/Shunyata/AQ/Sablon/FTA/Sony ES/Pioneer Elite/Parasound/Gallo/JL Audio/ASC/Stillpoints/GIK/Vicoustic/Symposium/Acoustic Revive/A/V Room Service [and, sadly, only one pair of ears...]

  47. #47
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by GSOphile View Post
    Honestly, this debate, that got kicked off on another site that's famous for such, to me resembles a debate on the importance of swatting a gnat vs. a fly on an elephant's ass. As always, YMMV.
    This was not my intention.

    I was commenting as a Luxman fan regarding how Luxman killed off their Class A amps and how as an audiophile who values consumer choice is concerned.

    Unfortunately the same people who ruined a normal discussion on the other site did the same here.

    I apologize to the forum for my part in contributing to that. In hind sight there are responses and posts I could have responded to differently and I failed to take the high road. I own my actions in this thread.

    My formal apologies to Mike and the members of this forum - even those I disagreed with on this thread. We all come here to enjoy audio discussion and not for drama.

  48. #48
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Michael, I too shall chime in with my apology as well, both to you and the discussion here. We all (myself included) tend to get emotional on certain 'audio subjects' !
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  49. #49
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2022
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    Texas
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
    Michael, I too shall chime in with my apology as well, both to you and the discussion here. We all (myself included) tend to get emotional on certain 'audio subjects' !
    Accepted and thank you! I can totally relate to getting too wrapped up in a discussion.
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  50. #50

    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Facts and figures make for a better discussion. Subjective opinions without technical backup generally lead to controversy and waste of time.
    McIntosh MC462, D150, MCT500 - PMC MB2 Se - Klipsch Palladium P-37F / P-312W- Wireworld

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