Thread: Are they going to destroy audio?

@MichaelsMinute - What you have explained makes perfect sense to you I’m sure. Now please go explain yourself on another forum.

Originally Posted by Projectman

@MichaelsMinute - What you have explained makes perfect sense to you I’m sure. Now please go explain yourself on another forum.

Hi ProjectMan - let me break it down into smaller sentences for you. Sort of like cliff notes version. Maybe this will help:

- I saw a post over on another forum that echoed a concern I've had for awhile based on what we see happening around us.
- On that forum there were some people pushing class D amps with unsubstantiated claims that their "carbon footprint" is smaller than that of other amps;
- They say we need to get rid of the other types of amps other than Class D;
- I don't care about the imaginary carbon footprint - only how it sounds;
- I also see people in general posting about concern for how much energy Class A amps waste and therefore should be outlawed.
- What are your thoughts? Are these arbitrary moves going to destroy audio?
- Example: CA just comically outlawed the purchase of any new gas powered outdoor equipment and gas powered cars; France is outlawing ANY gas vehicle from even DRIVING in Paris.

Hope that helps you Projectman!

You are clear like mud. You said a lot more before you selectively chose your quotes above.

Are they going to destroy audio? Hopefully they will destroy audiophiles that profess too much with opinions and rhetoric.

Originally Posted by Projectman

You are clear like mud. You said a lot more before you selectively chose your quotes above.

Are they going to destroy audio? Hopefully they will destroy audiophiles that profess too much with opinions and rhetoric.

Oh, so you DID understand my original post? Sorry, trying to make it easier for you and not overwhelm. Your last sentence says so much more than even you know it does

We get it. You love the free market.

The marketplace will determine the future of audio. I have always had an upper weight limit to my electronic equipment. Recently I have been regretting not setting that limit lower. Many graybeard audiophiles have already or will someday set weight limits.

Younger audiophiles are not necessarily enamored of the older names in the industry. Especially since many of the founders have moved on or passed on. Younger audiophiles will be more ready to embrace technology changes in the industry.

Steve Job's quote "If anybody's going to make our products obsolete, I want it to be us." For music source innovation we had the iPod>iPhone/iPad. Now streaming is common place with mega-buck music servers.

Technology is a speeding train. You don't have to jump on board but standing on the tracks with your hand up shouting "STOP!" is suicide for a company and stubborn to a fault for an individual. This from someone who purchased their first smart phone in May.

Originally Posted by Dizzie

The marketplace will determine the future of audio. I have always had an upper weight limit to my electronic equipment. Recently I have been regretting not setting that limit lower. Many graybeard audiophiles have already or will someday set weight limits.

Younger audiophiles are not necessarily enamored of the older names in the industry. Especially since many of the founders have moved on or passed on. Younger audiophiles will be more ready to embrace technology changes in the industry.

Steve Job's quote "If anybody's going to make our products obsolete, I want it to be us." For music source innovation we had the iPod>iPhone/iPad. Now streaming is common place with mega-buck music servers.

Technology is a speeding train. You don't have to jump on board but standing on the tracks with your hand up shouting "STOP!" is suicide for a company and stubborn to a fault for an individual. This from someone who purchased their first smart phone in May.

Thank you for your post. All great points.

Did you go Apple or Google on the smartphone?

ETA: To your point about established brands - I do think those with strong social media presence are attracting the newer customers into the hobby.

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

LOL. A personal bitter rant. LOL. I prefer tubes and class a/b over Class A, but I understand you enjoy stirring the pot just like you did on that other forum with them there.

I posted above about him. You are welcome to reach out to him if you don't believe me. But I bet you won't.

BTW, I am enjoying how much you two either won't/can't read the posts or have and refuse to acknowledge him. Funny since he responded to you and you ignored him.

ETA: You can keep trying with the personal attacks as that is only a reflection on you and not me. I really don't care and it surely doesn't make your intentional diverting any less entertaining.

No, I have no problem whatsoever with your liking of Class A and tubes, though it seems you've not given Class D an fair opportunity to win you over, but I feel it's up to you to substantiate the claims you've made.

No intention to be personal or offensive, but it would be nice to see independent or authoritative confirmation of your claims. You seem somewhat reluctant.

Perhaps I should be pleased that you find my "intentional diversions" entertaining, though neither diversion nor entertainment was actually intended.

Incidentally, I think you may be confusing me with someone else as, if you are referring to ASR as "the other forum", this is a platform I very rarely look at and even more rarely have ever contributed to - and never recently. I find the conversation there generally unfathomable, so I don’t visit!

Thanks for that last comment. You understand me completely. I’m an audio enthusiast, not an audiophile. I don’t argue the merits of of audio brands or technologies. I occasionally call people out when they make statements that are full of opinion and nonsense.

Originally Posted by Hear Here

No, I have no problem whatsoever with your liking of Class A and tubes, though it seems you've not given Class D an fair opportunity to win you over, but I feel it's up to you to substantiate the claims you've made.

No intention to be personal or offensive, but it would be nice to see independent or authoritative confirmation of your claims. You seem somewhat reluctant.

1) Please tell me exactly what I have and have not done in terms of trying class D to lead you to that conclusion ( I know you have openly stated you want Class A abolished as it is anti-social);

2) I have clearly stated multiple times in this thread my source and his name and you know how to contact him very easily and you have still yet to reach out to him even though he has responded to you and you've ignored him. Who is the reluctant one?

Originally Posted by Projectman

I occasionally call people out when they make statements that are full of opinion and nonsense.

So then why are you on an audio forum which is virtually all opinion? LOL

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

1) Please tell me exactly what I have and have not done in terms of trying class D to lead you to that conclusion ( I know you have openly stated you want Class A abolished as it is anti-social);

2) I have clearly stated multiple times in this thread my source and his name and you know how to contact him very easily and you have still yet to reach out to him even though he has responded to you and you've ignored him. Who is the reluctant one?

Ha-ha!

1) I have never suggested that Class A should be banned, only offered an opinion that it is inexcusably inefficient. I think you must agree with me on that point.

2) If you are talking about who I think you are talking about, I think his most recent contribution here clarifies matters pretty unambiguously. As I understand it, Luxman has never suggested it has withdrawn any model for environmental reasons. The reason quoted is that one particular limited edition model is sold out - as all successful limited editions should. Seems pretty clear to me but perhaps my interpretation of that posting may differ from yours.

Tell you what – let’s agree to differ and end this friendly but absurd banter. It must make one or maybe both of us appear totally misguided! No need to reply

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Ha-ha!

1) I have never suggested that Class A should be banned, only offered an opinion that it is inexcusably inefficient. I think you must agree with me on that point.

2) If you are talking about who I think you are talking about, I think his most recent contribution here clarifies matters pretty unambiguously. As I understand it, Luxman has never suggested it has withdrawn any model for environmental reasons. The reason quoted is that one particular limited edition model is sold out - as all successful limited editions should. Seems pretty clear to me but perhaps my interpretation of that posting may differ from yours.

Tell you what – let’s agree to differ and end this friendly but absurd banter. It must make one or maybe both of us appear totally misguided! No need to reply

So you still refuse to ask him? That's your choice but makes you look bad after saying I was wrong now doesn't it?

No need to 'guess' as I have openly stated it at least twice and the fact he didn't say I was wrong says it all. Either reach out to him and own your mistake or just let it go and we will all know that you were wrong anyway and now you're trying to save face.

I respect if you have a different opinion and you could have simply said and we would have had an adult conversation. But instead you chose to act just like on the other board with personal attacks, insults, and purposely derailing a thread due to your extreme environmental beliefs and now you want to just agree to disagree. Maybe try the adult approach first next time. That's why I asked for people OPINIONS on my original post - to have an open adult conversation. But you just couldn't allow that and had to take the extremist positions you did.

I have nothing against you and look forward to positive exchanges in the future. Just skip the "anti-social" behavior (as you put it) next time. I know the moderators on the other forum suggested people ignore you, but I look forward to friendly discussions in the future. Hopefully you are capable of that.

ETA: Some of us tried to end the poor behavior and apologized for it back on page 2. You choose not to and instead chose to continue with your behavior. That's on you.

Originally Posted by grubble

I'm not sure how this has ANY relevance on whether Class A audio amplification will go the way of the dodo. Until there's a law passed that explicitly bans Class A audio amplication from being produced, we all will continue to enjoy the CHOICES we have for great audio gear today.

Then clearly you missed the entire point of my opening post. And if you are waiting for a law that explicitly bans Class A vs how the green laws have been written regarding electronics up till now (look at dish washers as an example), then you don't know how the EPA and other political bodies work to achieve an agenda.

DumpsterFire2.jpg

Originally Posted by still-one

DumpsterFire2.jpg

Perfect summation of this thread.

Originally Posted by still-one

DumpsterFire2.jpg

oh my, any 'Class D' amps in there .....

Originally Posted by Mikado463

oh my, any 'Class D' amps in there .....

Silly boy. Only Class-A amps start fires.

Aren't all tube amps running in Class A? Maybe they started the dumpster fire?

Originally Posted by Mikado463

oh my, any 'Class D' amps in there .....

OK, that's actually pretty funny. LOL. Well played.

All my Class D amps run as cool as a cucumber. I am looking for a way to add tubes to them.

Originally Posted by Mikado463

oh my, any 'Class D' amps in there .....

Originally Posted by nc42acc

Aren't all tube amps running in Class A? Maybe they started the dumpster fire?

Are you serious?

Mark I am always serious my friend. Hope you are doing well.

Originally Posted by mep

Are you serious?

Originally Posted by nc42acc

Mark I am always serious my friend. Hope you are doing well.

Thanks Marty. I am doing well. Do you know the difference between a Class A amp and a Class A/B?

Hey Mark I know the basics and enough to be semi literate. I am thinking I will get a good education in this thread. So when I think of tube amps I am immediately drawn to 300B versions.

Originally Posted by mep

Thanks Marty. I am doing well. Do you know the difference between a Class A amp and a Class A/B?

Originally Posted by mep

Thanks Marty. I am doing well. Do you know the difference between a Class A amp and a Class A/B?

Mep , good topic , Please go ahead and Explain ..!



Regards

For my main music listening system, I have never owned any amps other than McIntosh. Fortunately their solid state amps run Class A up to about 10-12 watts which is more than enough for my speakers. The sound is wonderful.

Are the New ones that high, whats the idle wattage ..?



Regards

Wow! Thank you very much for the in depth tube amp information. It is a great resource to have forums like this with the actual industry experts who respond.

Originally Posted by atmasphere

A 300b tube can be operated single-ended in class A1 (no grid current), class A2 (grid current during part of the waveform) and class A3 (which is the subject of a patent by Jack Elliano of Electra Fidelity, since retired).

It can also be operated push-pull in class A1, A2, AB and B. The advantage of push-pull is greater power, greater efficiency and potentially lower distortion (which can result in smoother more detailed presentation as opposed to single-ended operation). In class B, an output tube is operating for only 1/2 of the signal waveform and for the other half is not conducting; being in a state of 'cutoff'. In class AB its a combination of A for lower power (usually less than 1-5 Watts) and operating B at higher power levels. This is done to prevent crossover distortion that is common with operation in class B at low power. Another way to prevent class B from making distortion (which is usually due to the collapse of the magnetic field in the output transformer when the tube stops conducting; a process similar to how a spark coil works in a car) is to use a push-pull circuit known as a Circlotron. A Circlotron circuit does not have a DC component in the primary of the output transformer, so there is no collapse of the magnetic field. Probably more than you need to know, but there it is...

The 300b is a fairly linear tube but does not rule the roost in that regard. The value of having such a linear tube is that you don't need to run feedback to achieve fairly good linearity. If operated single-ended in class A1 (which is 99% of all SETs made) then care must be taken to use a speaker that is easy to drive and having an efficiency high enough that in the room to be used the amplifier output does not exceed about 20% of full power. This is to prevent higher ordered harmonics from being present on musical transients, which can impart a sense of 'dynamics' but is really distortion masquerading as such due to how it interacts with the human ear. If you are an SET fan, reading this may have just ruined it for you, since the awareness that the 'dynamics' is really just distortion can affect your listening experience! But you can avoid that by simply using a more efficient speaker (and all that goes with that; probably not all that simple...), which most people don't, since you read about how 'dynamic' SETs are all the time. A sound level pressure meter, which is available as an app for smartphones, sorts that out pretty quickly. Dynamics should only come from the music and no-where else.

Originally Posted by nicoff

Now I want to hear Mep's explanation.

I hope you weren't sitting on a picket fence waiting for my answer. Ralph did an excellent job of giving the text book definitions for the different classes of amplifier operation.

Originally Posted by atmasphere

I somewhat doubt Jack's patent to have made it into any textbooks at this point! He sent an amp using class A3 to us about ten years ago and it was quite nice. It used a single 300b and legitimately made 11 or 12 Watts, with lower distortion than you could get out of the tube running class A1. I see no reason why it could not be used in Push-Pull as well but never pursued it and I don't think Jack has either.

I wasn't referring to Jack's patent, just the definitions for classic Class A and Class A/B amplifiers.

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

It won't stop until we get rid of the WEF and UN and a few other organizations trying to dictate how the world should be.

Please keep your personal conspiracy theories out of this forum.

Edit:

1) leaf blowers really. I tough these things only existed in memes where white middle aged men shout angerly at clouts

2) Change must sometimes be forced,. Humans are stubborn creatures who romanticize a past that never was (the happy nuclear family). So if class A gets banned there will be some tears, 5 years later no one will care.

3) I'm using Octave tube power amps right now, I am sort of planning to probably sell these in the next 5 year and will buy class D.

4) EU is most likely banning sales of new ICE engines form 2035

Originally Posted by mep

Perfect summation of this thread.

Got that right !

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

but most people agree it is not audiophile ready

file-20190903-175700-1h9ic1n.jpg

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Myles or Phil, maybe you could suggest brands of Class D you feel can compete with A/B. The closest I've heard was the current Bel Canto E1X, unfortunately the next step up wasn't available and the E1X didn't convince me to take a chance on the purchase without hearing one. I've also had Merrill Audio Veritas in my system, good amps but just didn't do it for me.

I'd love to hear the Class D amp that satisfies me but that hasn't happened yet. Those who claim Class D sounds better clearly listen to a different aspect of music than me. Something about Class D leaves it less convincing than A/B or A. I mean your system has to be engaging to you the listener, I've declined amps with better certain attributes but wasn't as engaging to me as what I was using. So Class D can be extremely transparent but lack it that something that engages me, it's still no good, transparency is just one of many aspects. Really, when it comes donw to it no matter the class of amp being compared the one you like most comes down to the one with less compromises.

I really don't think anyone will have audio gear on their radar for let's go green. Less of a concern than jet exhaust or cow farts. I'm no expert but I'd also bet there's items in your home that still use more electric than your power amp, using a realistic comparison.

Excellent question. I’m still waiting for the response to my identical question from the OP.

The only way we can have a meaningful discussion is to have heard the same amps. As you have done in your post. Otherwise it’s just background static.

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

Excellent question. I’m still waiting for the response to my identical question from the OP.

The only way we can have a meaningful discussion is to have heard the same amps. As you have done in your post. Otherwise it’s just background static.

You need to move on.

I'm not playing the game of listing what Class D amps I've heard as it's got no bearing on this thread, and especially now that the rest of us have laid post to rest and moved forward.

Queuing up snarky response from Mark/MEP whom I have blocked so it doesn't matter in 3...2...1...

Originally Posted by Alkyogre

I am very happy with my class D monoblocks. If everybody is saying that they sound awesome, then they are awesome.

That is great you have amps you love. That is the best part of this hobby - finding a component that you really love!

I want to hear the Class D that can replace the Octave, Good sounding gear

Originally Posted by Mordante

Please keep your personal conspiracy theories out of this forum.

Edit:

1) leaf blowers really. I tough these things only existed in memes where white middle aged men shout angerly at clouts

2) Change must sometimes be forced,. Humans are stubborn creatures who romanticize a past that never was (the happy nuclear family). So if class A gets banned there will be some tears, 5 years later no one will care.

3) I'm using Octave tube power amps right now, I am sort of planning to probably sell these in the next 5 year and will buy class D.

4) EU is most likely banning sales of new ICE engines form 2035

LOL!!!