Thread: Are they going to destroy audio?

Originally Posted by Hear Here

But Mike - do you actually stock any Class D gear? If you don't offer Class D (or didn't stock tube gear), I can fully understand that no one would be coming to you to ask for it. They'd go to someone who does stock these things.

We actually do. MBL Noble amps and MBL Noble integrated and HiFi Rose RS520. In stock right now, ready to go.


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Originally Posted by W9TR

If there are any A/V equipment energy directives in the works, they'll probably come from the EU.
The EU eco design directive is already impacting consumer product development.

The EU has published energy requirements for set top boxes, home networking equipment, external power supplies, and televisions, among others. There is some concern that these regulations for TV's will limit the sale of 8K and some 4K sets in EU.

We have for many years had rules on standby and off power consumption for audio and AV gear among many other consumer appliances.

This has driven design changes in a lot of audio equipment. One example is non-use power off timers, which are now required in most if not all amplifier products sold in the EU.

None of the external linear power supplies popular with audiophiles meet the EU requirements today. Not one. Yet they are openly sold. More on this later. **

It would be easy for regulators to set power consumption limits on AV and audio amplifiers and receivers.
These power limits could be written in such a way as to eliminate the sale of all Class A and AB amplifiers using standard linear power supplies. At their tightest, they may allow only Class D amps driven by switchmode power supplies. This would be easy to do as the efficiencies of all these amplifiers are well known in the art.

This, in turn, would cause audiophile heads to spontaneously explode globally, reducing the market for linear class A amplifiers to zero. Problem solved.

** In order to get the attention of regulators, the market has to be big enough to make a dent in consumption. High end audio is a tiny market.

This is why this topic is kinda hard to discuss without involving politics in a way. It is no secret that the EU has been under a much tighter Grip of the WEF and the plans for the Green New Deal and the Great Reset. Someone in control says Dance, and those under their control and influence start twerking. Then they tell everyone else it's the best thing going.

I have one Class D Amp. It is the behemoth Lepai 20x20 that drives my Dynaudio 42s in my office. I did not seek out Class D but rather bought a cheap solution for my needs. In this installation, it is fine for what it is.

As far as the Power Consumption Argument goes, if people can afford to pay their Electric Bills, then they should be able to choose whatever they plug in. The Payments pay for others to have jobs and plants to be in business. Nobody should be allowed to Mandate that we all give up Class A or Tubes. If they want Class D, buy it and move on.

Buy the way, I will Offset my Electric Bills by driving a Gas Powered Car and not have to plug one in to eat up more electricity.

Originally Posted by atmasphere

I'm not having trouble with the understanding thing as far as I can tell. My point was simply that audio won't be destroyed if class A amps go away because there are already class D amps that sound better. I would have thought that obvious from my prior posts, although it probably did require a bit of reading between the lines.

Put another way its OK that class A amps go away. Class A is used to increase the linearity of the amplifier, which is important if the circuit is incapable of supporting the feedback really needed to make it linear. FWIW the semiconductors needed to really do that didn't exist until sometime in the 1990s. But few designers have sorted out how to really use them such that they don't get into trouble with some technical/engineering stuff that it sounds like you're not interested in hearing about. If I'm wrong about that just say so and I can get into the issues facing them.

You can look at this another way, being an advocate of internal combustion: A long time ago side valves were used in cars and motorbikes. They went away because something better came along- the overhead valve, which allowed for greater compression ratio and thus greater power and efficiency. My old Indian 841 was a good example- 750cc displacement and only got 20 miles/gallon, whereas my MotoGuzzi with 850cc gets more like 45mpg and has a whole lot more torque and power at the same time.

Class A is like that. Its not gone yet, but we are witnessing a transition in audio as designers learn the new techniques (for example, how to make class D sound better). So in a very real way, while you claim that class D has nothing to do with the slow demise of class A, class D is the elephant in the room.

The simple fact of the matter is class D has been coming for a long time (it was originally proposed in the 1950s when tubes were King; FWIW your stance about destroying audio has a lot in common with the lamentations of tube advocates...). Its now arriving at the point where any amplifier manufacturer (like Luxman) who doesn't get the class D thing figured out is doing so at their own risk. For this same reason, tube power amps are also on borrowed time as class A and AB amps are.

All of that makes sense. However the issue with Class A is the greenies are coming up with arbitrary and made up numbers as to why Class A and other electronics are "evil". It is completely random based on numbers they make up out of thin air "oh...this many of watts we arbitrarily decide it too much".

Do you really think they will stop with Class A amps or whatever arbitrary numbers they come up with this time?

What happens when they come for Class D because they it's time for new arbitrary numbers? At what point do we simply say leave us alone and they should focus on more pressing issues such as them flying all over the world on their own private jets?

You are looking at this logically and assuming their appetite can be fulfilled. Based on their history and past actions, that is never the case. Where will it stop?

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

Where will it stop?

It won't stop until we get rid of the WEF and UN and a few other organizations trying to dictate how the world should be.

Originally Posted by atmasphere

What you are seeing is manufacturers waking up to the fact that they are going to get left behind if they don't figure out class D. Power draw has nothing to do with it either. It has entirely to do with economics.

Could that be the real reason behind Luxman's decision, but rather than say that they went with the Green Agenda?

The war in Ukraine was a wake up call for tube electronics manufacturers. Those companies that solely rely on Russian tubes must be sweating.

Some are focusing on Class D now I guess.


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Originally Posted by Shadowfax

It won't stop until we get rid of the WEF and UN and a few other organizations trying to dictate how the world should be.

Don't worry, you won't get a knock on your door from the Eco Police coming to confiscate and crush your non-eco amps. Keep them going until they eventually die, or until your fuel bill forces you to ditch them. Just bear in mind that buying a replacement may require you to actually listen to Class D and to choose from the abundant different "voices" available, some of which will be as close to what you had before as to be undiscernible.

Or perhaps the Eco Police will come knocking!

Audio Shark also needs a "Dislike this post" icon. Some of the posts here are so wildly devoid of facts and reality they scare me. The posts defy logic. Some posters have lost all civility. Some completely ignore the fact that their actions have consequences for others not just now but for decades. What is the world going to look like in our decedents lifetimes?

Of course the title of the thread was an open invitation to chaos and verbal battles.

I have added two more Sharks to my ignore list. The total is now 3.

Originally Posted by Dizzie

Audio Shark also needs a "Dislike this post" icon. Some of the posts here are so wildly devoid of facts and reality they scare me.

If only posts based on provable facts were allowed on this forum, then not a single person would be allowed to post on virtually anything other than specs and stating the price of gear. What's the point of that kind of forum?

Originally Posted by atmasphere

Well the simple fact is that a class D requires less energy to build since it uses less materials. They are also a lot more energy efficient so they are more 'green' but 'Green Agenda' sounds political to me so I very much doubt they did that.

So less energy and less materials means cheaper to manufacture but no big price drop. Not too many companies say that out loud in any industry.

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

So less energy and less materials means cheaper to manufacture but no big price drop. Not too many companies say that out loud in any industry.

I think you need to re-do your homework! Look at (for example) Atmosphere's OTL prices compared with his Class D prices. I think you'll see that ecomonies of production ARE reflected in selling price.

Others who offer only Class D (such as NAD) sell at prices that similarly excellent sounding Class A or tube amps could only dream of.

Great seeing you are creating your own circuitry for the Class D amps. Are you using SMPS or Linear PS? Sorry to deviate from topic.

Originally Posted by atmasphere

Our class D is one of our least expensive amps despite being (IMO) possibly our best sounding. Its price like all our products is priced to a formula. Most of its cost arises from the chassis, which is usually the most expensive part of any amplifier. In our case it is built rugged enough to survive UPS and FedEx treatment while supporting a power transformer of some weight. FWIW compared to our tube amplifier that makes similar power its about a quarter of the cost.

FWIW with most of the changes the industry has seen after WW2, the transition from field coils to permanent magnets, from triodes to pentodes, from tubes to transistors, from analog to digital and yes from traditional amplification to class D has been mostly about economics. In most cases, there was little reduction in price despite the fact that the new tech was cheaper to build (and not always better; field coils for example are still the best magnets to use in a loudspeaker).

So that's the norm; rejoice when it doesn't happen.

How much are your Class D mono's? I didn't find it on your site. Looked like they are only 100 watts, is that right?

I really think you over estimate the importance and performance of Class D.

Originally Posted by atmasphere

Our class D is one of our least expensive amps despite being (IMO) possibly our best sounding. Its price like all our products is priced to a formula. Most of its cost arises from the chassis, which is usually the most expensive part of any amplifier. In our case it is built rugged enough to survive UPS and FedEx treatment while supporting a power transformer of some weight. FWIW compared to our tube amplifier that makes similar power its about a quarter of the cost.

FWIW with most of the changes the industry has seen after WW2, the transition from field coils to permanent magnets, from triodes to pentodes, from tubes to transistors, from analog to digital and yes from traditional amplification to class D has been mostly about economics. In most cases, there was little reduction in price despite the fact that the new tech was cheaper to build (and not always better; field coils for example are still the best magnets to use in a loudspeaker).

So that's the norm; rejoice when it doesn't happen.

Originally Posted by nicoff

Yes! where will it stop?
I miss the smell of leaded gasoline! I'm sure some radical organization got it banned for some crazy reason.

You may find interesting the widely accepted legal concept of "slippery slope". Interesting that you are comparing amplifiers to leaded gasoline.

This is a fascinating thread.

The designer and manufacturer of some of the best amplifiers I have heard is saying that Class D is as good as, if not better than their thermionic OTL offerings. Is this even rational? Of course it is, because Ralph is an engineer and engineers with good ears advance the state of the art. Intellectual honesty is rare I the audio world. Thanks Ralph!

There is a political/conspiracy subtext which is really weird. Why be concerned about something so improbable that it is laughable, as proven by a category of audiophile product that should already be banned in EU but is alive and well and even thriving. That product is linear power supplies, which are believed to be audibly far superior to their switch mode counterparts, so much so that they are used to power devices whose first action is to take this linear glory and input it to…….you guessed it, a switch mode power supply!

“It is new, therefore we must reject it” seems to be alive and well.

Originally Posted by W9TR

“It is new, therefore we must reject it” seems to be alive and well.

I'm an 'early adopter' in the consumer life cycle. I love new technology - except when I don't like how it sounds or works. Aren't we well past the life cycle of class D being considered new technology? I think Mike mentioned its been out for like 20 years?

If anyone still thinks after reading all these posts that this is an anti-class D thread (especially people 'scared' of new stuff that is 20 years old technology) and not about the real issues that has been repeated multiple times, then they are choosing to ignore the obvious.

When I first started posting my ideas of 'sensible' on ASR I got so many posters twisting my comments to fit their arguments that it did get frustrating holding my ground until I was satisfied my points were clear. Along the way I blocked enough posters and enough blocked me that I can go there and post without getting into long winded repeats anymore.

To the OP's point I really enjoy my motorcycles and was terrified that euro 5 was going to neuter my favorite summer hobby. Somehow the manufacturers are making the bikes lighter and more powerful while reducing emissions and noise. Maybe as appliance laws tighten the hi end manufacturers will employ big pulsing brains that can make the class D amps sound like the the sound we.ve come to love from from a/ab amps? like a previous poster said Bob Carver could do it 25 or so years ago locking himself up in a hotel room for a couple days made his own amp sound identical to the Conrad Johnson submitted by stereophile staff.

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

Aren't we well past the life cycle of class D being considered new technology? I think Mike mentioned its been out for like 20 years?

It may be true (it is true) that Class D has been around for 20 years or so and it may be true (it is true) that 20 years ago (even maybe 10 years ago) it was pretty crap, but Class D is the only technology that has been genuinely improving over those last 20 years. It has now reached the stage that there's little valid reason (apart from nostalgia or pig-headedness ) not to accept this.

Did you buy a digital camera 30 years ago? I hope not as it was pretty crap compared with film. Would you buy a film camera now? I doubt it because digital has developed to the extent there is no need for film apart from nostalgia or pig-headedness. Where do you stand on digital photography?

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Where do you stand on digital photography?

You may want reread my entire post you quoted above as it may be helpful. Especially the sentence that reads "If anyone still thinks after reading all these posts that this is an anti-class D thread (especially people 'scared' of new stuff that is 20 years old technology) and not about the real issues that has been repeated multiple times, then they are choosing to ignore the obvious."

You will find no where is digital photography mentioned.

Edited to add: Trying to compare a MARKET driven advancement in technology with a completely arbitrary and devoid-of-any-facts greenie mandate again purposely misses the point that has been repeated multiple times in this thread.

Has anyone (consumer) actually heard the Atma-sphere Class D amps?

All I really have to add is that at Florida Expo, two of my favorite rooms were using class D amps - AGD and Aavik.

That said, I tried a (lower level) Aavik at home, and I preferred the Boulder I eventually bought. The Aavik sounded great, but I found the Boulder a bit more to my taste, but the Boulder was approx double the $. Maybe the higher Aavik would have competed better. But I also listened to other A, A/B amps I also didn’t like as much, so I don’t know what that tells you in the end.

Other than what we hear from people who’ve directly compared similarly priced D vs A or A/B amps, in the same system, it’s just conjecture.

(Is Class D actually “digital” as some have said? I don’t really understand that.)

Don't know if this helps - How a Class D "Digital" Amplifier Works | Audioholics

Class D is not really ‘digital’.
Digital encoding involves two processes, sampling and quantization.
1. It is sampled and not continuous in time.
2. It quantized and not continuous in amplitude.

Class D amplifiers in their purest form don’t sample or quantize. They can, some do, but it is not a requirement or inherent in the design.

Originally Posted by nicoff

I think that the OP is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill!

Ahh the joys of partaking on a forum being able to discuss all topics, large and small. I love it! What a wonderful world we live in to be able to do that.

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

I hope you are right. However it has already become enough of a concern that Luxman stopped making their 590 Class A integrateds and they openly stated its due to environmental regulations.

Michael,

I've searched the internet for any news release concerning why the 590 Class A integrated amps are being discontinued, but I've come up empty. Could you direct me to the news release from Luxman declaring this?

Regards,

Michael

I think it takes about 40 years for an audio technology to get to a reasonable state of maturity. So Class D is about halfway there.

The complementary and quasi complementary class AB amplifier reached a state of maturity some 40 years after its introduction. There are some fine examples of the art today, but true innovation has essentially vanished and we are seeing incremental improvements in devices, materials, fit, and finish..

Class D still has along innovation horizon ahead of it.

The first Class D amplifier I worked on was the modulator for a 50kW broadcast transmitter, where efficiency represented dollars of profit for the broadcaster. Eliminating the modulation transformer was a huge improvement in performance.

Our friends in Hawaii may be the first to truly embrace Class D. Their average power cost is $0.44 per kWh and rising.

Originally Posted by mresseguie

Michael,

I've searched the internet for any news release concerning why the 590 Class A integrated amps are being discontinued, but I've come up empty. Could you direct me to the news release from Luxman declaring this?

Regards,

Michael

Hi Mike - Along with it being referenced in various reviews I've read, Mike @ Suncoast was told this himself by Luxman.

The op reads to me like 'are stricter green laws going to destroy audio?'

Originally Posted by steve59

The op reads to me like 'are stricter green laws going to destroy audio?'

They are going to destroy a lot of things.

Originally Posted by nicoff

Boy, this thread deteriorated faster than I thought!

About as quickly as I thought it would.

When politics enter hi fi, happens.

Originally Posted by Bart001

About as quickly as I thought it would.

When politics enter hi fi, happens.

100% every time. People can't help themselves when the opportunity arises.

Originally Posted by atmasphere

I tried to put this gently in my prior posts, but apparently it didn't get through. Your idea that somehow there's a green movement to rid the world of class A biased amplifiers is so much poppycock. Seriously. Don't. Worry. About. It. Its just not a thing. If you think it is, please supply the information about where you found this out. And also please explain what will happen when your source is proven to be incorrect. Put another way, the 'greenies' aren't out to get you or audio

Wow - so you are calling Mike @ Suncoast and Luxman themselves liars based on what? Proven how? Cause you say so? LOL

Nicely done.

You've clearly taken this post in a direction to lecture us on how good your class D amp is that no-one here seems to have heard. Instead of trying to turn this thread into a sales pitch for yourself, try and stick to the original question that has been reposted several times yet you've chosen to ignore for your own personal business gains.

It appears you may be sitting on a large stock of unsold Class D amps you are trying to desperately unload. Why else would you keep tuning this thread into it being al about you and your amps?

Originally Posted by atmasphere

No- not calling you a liar- that is clearly not what I said. I am saying however that if you have a source for that, it is in error.

.

In error how??? How are you calling them wrong? Based on what??

And I can see why not shipping until January with the parts shortage and all the long off-topic self marketing posts you've posted on this thread to divert from the real topic.

Originally Posted by atmasphere

We've been in business for over 49 years. As you can imagine, I know a lot of people in the industry including other amplifier manufacturers. If there were something out there even as a proposal, we would have heard about it one way or the other. Keep in mind that our amps for their power draw more energy from the wall than anyone else's, owing to a rather prodigious filament circuit to run all those power tubes. But on this topic other than this thread there is crickets. Someone somewhere would have mentioned something But no.

So this leads me to two possibilities: one is that you inquired out of concern. The other is you heard something from somewhere, from someone who might be overly paranoid. I don't know which. But your concern isn't founded and you can take some heart in that.

So you must have missed the post where I answered where I heard it from. Funny you keep ignoring that point.

And once again you've missed the point of the entire original post and sidetracked to an argument that is not a part of the post. There clearly is no amount of clarity that can get you on point to the original post and question. May want to get working on those back orders rather than continually purposely posting off topic here.

Think you might have your Class D amps at the Florida Audio Expo in February?

Originally Posted by atmasphere

WRT the class D amps, again the technology is the elephant in the room, based on your first post to this thread. In our case (I can't speak for others) we can't make the amps fast enough. So if you want one, you'll have to wait; right now it appears that orders we take today will ship in January.

Originally Posted by atmasphere

All I've been able to find were your comments about Luxman but they have nothing to that effect on their website- their latest news item is a about a new class A amp. . So I'm forced to conclude that either you're referring to someone else or you are correct and I missed a comment somewhere. Could you enlighten me?

I really think you need to focus on your back order and spend less time diverting this thread. I bet you could get those back orders built in time for Christmas if you spent all the time building you are spending here diverting. I'm still waiting for you to call out directly the person I mentioned.

I can't be any more clear than what I've already posted that you've chosen to ignore.

I hope I can make it in February. Would be great to meet you and hear your Class D amps.

Originally Posted by atmasphere

I think so. I might even be there this time too.

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

So you must have missed the post where I answered where I heard it from. Funny you keep ignoring that point.

Perhaps you could ask your source of this claim to post here to confirm what you say? Otherwise there seems to be no more authority behind your claim than your own somewhat suspect words. Most of these words seem to be a personal bitter rant about Class A and forces you claim are trying to destroy audio. What a load a b*****ks!

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Perhaps you could ask your source of this claim to post here to confirm what you say? Otherwise there seems to be no more authority behind your claim than your own somewhat suspect words. Most of these words seem to be a personal bitter rant about Class A and forces you claim are trying to destroy audio. What a load a b*****ks!

LOL. A personal bitter rant. LOL. I prefer tubes and class a/b over Class A, but I understand you enjoy stirring the pot just like you did on that other forum with them there.

I posted above about him. You are welcome to reach out to him if you don't believe me. But I bet you won't.

BTW, I am enjoying how much you two either won't/can't read the posts or have and refuse to acknowledge him. Funny since he responded to you and you ignored him.

ETA: You can keep trying with the personal attacks as that is only a reflection on you and not me. I really don't care and it surely doesn't make your intentional diverting any less entertaining.

Originally Posted by atmasphere

All I've been able to find were your comments about Luxman but they have nothing to that effect on their website- their latest news item is about a new class A amp.

Just for clarification purposes, the latest news is actually very old news (18 months ago) and it’s about the 595 amp which was a limited production and is now completely sold out.

As for Class A, I sure hope we see Luxman making class A amps again! The 590 and 595 were sublime.

Looking forward to hearing your amps in February.




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