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  1. #51
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    But Mike - do you actually stock any Class D gear? If you don't offer Class D (or didn't stock tube gear), I can fully understand that no one would be coming to you to ask for it. They'd go to someone who does stock these things.
    We actually do. MBL Noble amps and MBL Noble integrated and HiFi Rose RS520. In stock right now, ready to go.


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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

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  2. #52
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
    If there are any A/V equipment energy directives in the works, they'll probably come from the EU.
    The EU eco design directive is already impacting consumer product development.

    The EU has published energy requirements for set top boxes, home networking equipment, external power supplies, and televisions, among others. There is some concern that these regulations for TV's will limit the sale of 8K and some 4K sets in EU.

    We have for many years had rules on standby and off power consumption for audio and AV gear among many other consumer appliances.

    This has driven design changes in a lot of audio equipment. One example is non-use power off timers, which are now required in most if not all amplifier products sold in the EU.

    None of the external linear power supplies popular with audiophiles meet the EU requirements today. Not one. Yet they are openly sold. More on this later. **

    It would be easy for regulators to set power consumption limits on AV and audio amplifiers and receivers.
    These power limits could be written in such a way as to eliminate the sale of all Class A and AB amplifiers using standard linear power supplies. At their tightest, they may allow only Class D amps driven by switchmode power supplies. This would be easy to do as the efficiencies of all these amplifiers are well known in the art.

    This, in turn, would cause audiophile heads to spontaneously explode globally, reducing the market for linear class A amplifiers to zero. Problem solved.

    ** In order to get the attention of regulators, the market has to be big enough to make a dent in consumption. High end audio is a tiny market.
    This is why this topic is kinda hard to discuss without involving politics in a way. It is no secret that the EU has been under a much tighter Grip of the WEF and the plans for the Green New Deal and the Great Reset. Someone in control says Dance, and those under their control and influence start twerking. Then they tell everyone else it's the best thing going.

    I have one Class D Amp. It is the behemoth Lepai 20x20 that drives my Dynaudio 42s in my office. I did not seek out Class D but rather bought a cheap solution for my needs. In this installation, it is fine for what it is.

    As far as the Power Consumption Argument goes, if people can afford to pay their Electric Bills, then they should be able to choose whatever they plug in. The Payments pay for others to have jobs and plants to be in business. Nobody should be allowed to Mandate that we all give up Class A or Tubes. If they want Class D, buy it and move on.

    Buy the way, I will Offset my Electric Bills by driving a Gas Powered Car and not have to plug one in to eat up more electricity.
    -----------------
    Brian

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  3. #53
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Hi - thanks for posting. I do appreciate it.

    You keep on making this about class D amps and again I couldn't care less about class D amps as this is not about that.

    I've explained what it is about multiple times and ways (including in my post you quote above) and you just can't seem to grasp what this is about. I am sorry this is so difficult for you to understand and don't know how to help you or be any more clear.

    Thank you.
    I'm not having trouble with the understanding thing as far as I can tell. My point was simply that audio won't be destroyed if class A amps go away because there are already class D amps that sound better. I would have thought that obvious from my prior posts, although it probably did require a bit of reading between the lines.

    Put another way its OK that class A amps go away. Class A is used to increase the linearity of the amplifier, which is important if the circuit is incapable of supporting the feedback really needed to make it linear. FWIW the semiconductors needed to really do that didn't exist until sometime in the 1990s. But few designers have sorted out how to really use them such that they don't get into trouble with some technical/engineering stuff that it sounds like you're not interested in hearing about. If I'm wrong about that just say so and I can get into the issues facing them.

    You can look at this another way, being an advocate of internal combustion: A long time ago side valves were used in cars and motorbikes. They went away because something better came along- the overhead valve, which allowed for greater compression ratio and thus greater power and efficiency. My old Indian 841 was a good example- 750cc displacement and only got 20 miles/gallon, whereas my MotoGuzzi with 850cc gets more like 45mpg and has a whole lot more torque and power at the same time.

    Class A is like that. Its not gone yet, but we are witnessing a transition in audio as designers learn the new techniques (for example, how to make class D sound better). So in a very real way, while you claim that class D has nothing to do with the slow demise of class A, class D is the elephant in the room.

    The simple fact of the matter is class D has been coming for a long time (it was originally proposed in the 1950s when tubes were King; FWIW your stance about destroying audio has a lot in common with the lamentations of tube advocates...). Its now arriving at the point where any amplifier manufacturer (like Luxman) who doesn't get the class D thing figured out is doing so at their own risk. For this same reason, tube power amps are also on borrowed time as class A and AB amps are.

  4. #54
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    I'm not having trouble with the understanding thing as far as I can tell. My point was simply that audio won't be destroyed if class A amps go away because there are already class D amps that sound better. I would have thought that obvious from my prior posts, although it probably did require a bit of reading between the lines.

    Put another way its OK that class A amps go away. Class A is used to increase the linearity of the amplifier, which is important if the circuit is incapable of supporting the feedback really needed to make it linear. FWIW the semiconductors needed to really do that didn't exist until sometime in the 1990s. But few designers have sorted out how to really use them such that they don't get into trouble with some technical/engineering stuff that it sounds like you're not interested in hearing about. If I'm wrong about that just say so and I can get into the issues facing them.

    You can look at this another way, being an advocate of internal combustion: A long time ago side valves were used in cars and motorbikes. They went away because something better came along- the overhead valve, which allowed for greater compression ratio and thus greater power and efficiency. My old Indian 841 was a good example- 750cc displacement and only got 20 miles/gallon, whereas my MotoGuzzi with 850cc gets more like 45mpg and has a whole lot more torque and power at the same time.

    Class A is like that. Its not gone yet, but we are witnessing a transition in audio as designers learn the new techniques (for example, how to make class D sound better). So in a very real way, while you claim that class D has nothing to do with the slow demise of class A, class D is the elephant in the room.

    The simple fact of the matter is class D has been coming for a long time (it was originally proposed in the 1950s when tubes were King; FWIW your stance about destroying audio has a lot in common with the lamentations of tube advocates...). Its now arriving at the point where any amplifier manufacturer (like Luxman) who doesn't get the class D thing figured out is doing so at their own risk. For this same reason, tube power amps are also on borrowed time as class A and AB amps are.
    All of that makes sense. However the issue with Class A is the greenies are coming up with arbitrary and made up numbers as to why Class A and other electronics are "evil". It is completely random based on numbers they make up out of thin air "oh...this many of watts we arbitrarily decide it too much".

    Do you really think they will stop with Class A amps or whatever arbitrary numbers they come up with this time?

    What happens when they come for Class D because they it's time for new arbitrary numbers? At what point do we simply say leave us alone and they should focus on more pressing issues such as them flying all over the world on their own private jets?

    You are looking at this logically and assuming their appetite can be fulfilled. Based on their history and past actions, that is never the case. Where will it stop?
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

  5. #55
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Where will it stop?
    It won't stop until we get rid of the WEF and UN and a few other organizations trying to dictate how the world should be.
    -----------------
    Brian

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  6. #56
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    All of that makes sense. However the issue with Class A is the greenies are coming up with arbitrary and made up numbers as to why Class A and other electronics are "evil". It is completely random based on numbers they make up out of thin air "oh...this many of watts we arbitrarily decide it too much".

    Do you really think they will stop with Class A amps or whatever arbitrary numbers they come up with this time?

    What happens when they come for Class D because they it's time for new arbitrary numbers? At what point do we simply say leave us alone and they should focus on more pressing issues such as them flying all over the world on their own private jets?

    You are looking at this logically and assuming their appetite can be fulfilled. Based on their history and past actions, that is never the case. Where will it stop?
    I've been doing this for a while and not heard anything about how much power an amplifier can or can't draw!

    AFAIK its not a concern at all. Keep in mind that when it comes to power draw, our OTLs are the King. If we make an amp that puts out as much power as your class A amp, I can guarantee our amp draws more power. Yet we've not heard anything about restrictions in that regard. If it were one of our overseas distributors would have mentioned something (its far more likely for something like that to occur overseas than it ever would be here!) by now.

    What you are seeing is manufacturers waking up to the fact that they are going to get left behind if they don't figure out class D. Power draw has nothing to do with it either. It has entirely to do with economics.

  7. #57
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post

    What you are seeing is manufacturers waking up to the fact that they are going to get left behind if they don't figure out class D. Power draw has nothing to do with it either. It has entirely to do with economics.
    Could that be the real reason behind Luxman's decision, but rather than say that they went with the Green Agenda?
    -----------------
    Brian

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  8. #58
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    The war in Ukraine was a wake up call for tube electronics manufacturers. Those companies that solely rely on Russian tubes must be sweating.

    Some are focusing on Class D now I guess.


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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

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  9. #59
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    It won't stop until we get rid of the WEF and UN and a few other organizations trying to dictate how the world should be.
    Don't worry, you won't get a knock on your door from the Eco Police coming to confiscate and crush your non-eco amps. Keep them going until they eventually die, or until your fuel bill forces you to ditch them. Just bear in mind that buying a replacement may require you to actually listen to Class D and to choose from the abundant different "voices" available, some of which will be as close to what you had before as to be undiscernible.

    Or perhaps the Eco Police will come knocking!
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  10. #60
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Audio Shark also needs a "Dislike this post" icon. Some of the posts here are so wildly devoid of facts and reality they scare me. The posts defy logic. Some posters have lost all civility. Some completely ignore the fact that their actions have consequences for others not just now but for decades. What is the world going to look like in our decedents lifetimes?

    Of course the title of the thread was an open invitation to chaos and verbal battles.

    I have added two more Sharks to my ignore list. The total is now 3.
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  11. #61
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzie View Post
    Audio Shark also needs a "Dislike this post" icon. Some of the posts here are so wildly devoid of facts and reality they scare me.
    If only posts based on provable facts were allowed on this forum, then not a single person would be allowed to post on virtually anything other than specs and stating the price of gear. What's the point of that kind of forum?
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

  12. #62
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    Could that be the real reason behind Luxman's decision, but rather than say that they went with the Green Agenda?
    Well the simple fact is that a class D requires less energy to build since it uses less materials. They are also a lot more energy efficient so they are more 'green' but 'Green Agenda' sounds political to me so I very much doubt they did that.

  13. #63
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    The war in Ukraine was a wake up call for tube electronics manufacturers. Those companies that solely rely on Russian tubes must be sweating.

    Some are focusing on Class D now I guess.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    FWIW dept.: in our case we launched our class D project about 6 1/2 years ago. That was because I heard some class D amps that really were not sounding bad at all.

  14. #64
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    Well the simple fact is that a class D requires less energy to build since it uses less materials. They are also a lot more energy efficient so they are more 'green' but 'Green Agenda' sounds political to me so I very much doubt they did that.
    So less energy and less materials means cheaper to manufacture but no big price drop. Not too many companies say that out loud in any industry.
    -----------------
    Brian

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  15. #65
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    So less energy and less materials means cheaper to manufacture but no big price drop. Not too many companies say that out loud in any industry.
    I think you need to re-do your homework! Look at (for example) Atmosphere's OTL prices compared with his Class D prices. I think you'll see that ecomonies of production ARE reflected in selling price.

    Others who offer only Class D (such as NAD) sell at prices that similarly excellent sounding Class A or tube amps could only dream of.
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  16. #66
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    So less energy and less materials means cheaper to manufacture but no big price drop. Not too many companies say that out loud in any industry.
    Our class D is one of our least expensive amps despite being (IMO) possibly our best sounding. Its price like all our products is priced to a formula. Most of its cost arises from the chassis, which is usually the most expensive part of any amplifier. In our case it is built rugged enough to survive UPS and FedEx treatment while supporting a power transformer of some weight. FWIW compared to our tube amplifier that makes similar power its about a quarter of the cost.

    FWIW with most of the changes the industry has seen after WW2, the transition from field coils to permanent magnets, from triodes to pentodes, from tubes to transistors, from analog to digital and yes from traditional amplification to class D has been mostly about economics. In most cases, there was little reduction in price despite the fact that the new tech was cheaper to build (and not always better; field coils for example are still the best magnets to use in a loudspeaker).

    So that's the norm; rejoice when it doesn't happen.

  17. #67
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Great seeing you are creating your own circuitry for the Class D amps. Are you using SMPS or Linear PS? Sorry to deviate from topic.


    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    Our class D is one of our least expensive amps despite being (IMO) possibly our best sounding. Its price like all our products is priced to a formula. Most of its cost arises from the chassis, which is usually the most expensive part of any amplifier. In our case it is built rugged enough to survive UPS and FedEx treatment while supporting a power transformer of some weight. FWIW compared to our tube amplifier that makes similar power its about a quarter of the cost.

    FWIW with most of the changes the industry has seen after WW2, the transition from field coils to permanent magnets, from triodes to pentodes, from tubes to transistors, from analog to digital and yes from traditional amplification to class D has been mostly about economics. In most cases, there was little reduction in price despite the fact that the new tech was cheaper to build (and not always better; field coils for example are still the best magnets to use in a loudspeaker).

    So that's the norm; rejoice when it doesn't happen.
    Marty

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  18. #68
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    How much are your Class D mono's? I didn't find it on your site. Looked like they are only 100 watts, is that right?

    I really think you over estimate the importance and performance of Class D.



    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    Our class D is one of our least expensive amps despite being (IMO) possibly our best sounding. Its price like all our products is priced to a formula. Most of its cost arises from the chassis, which is usually the most expensive part of any amplifier. In our case it is built rugged enough to survive UPS and FedEx treatment while supporting a power transformer of some weight. FWIW compared to our tube amplifier that makes similar power its about a quarter of the cost.

    FWIW with most of the changes the industry has seen after WW2, the transition from field coils to permanent magnets, from triodes to pentodes, from tubes to transistors, from analog to digital and yes from traditional amplification to class D has been mostly about economics. In most cases, there was little reduction in price despite the fact that the new tech was cheaper to build (and not always better; field coils for example are still the best magnets to use in a loudspeaker).

    So that's the norm; rejoice when it doesn't happen.
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  19. #69

    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    ...
    Where will it stop?
    Yes! where will it stop?
    I miss the smell of leaded gasoline! I'm sure some radical organization got it banned for some crazy reason.

  20. #70
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Yes! where will it stop?
    I miss the smell of leaded gasoline! I'm sure some radical organization got it banned for some crazy reason.
    You may find interesting the widely accepted legal concept of "slippery slope". Interesting that you are comparing amplifiers to leaded gasoline.
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

  21. #71
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    This is a fascinating thread.

    The designer and manufacturer of some of the best amplifiers I have heard is saying that Class D is as good as, if not better than their thermionic OTL offerings. Is this even rational? Of course it is, because Ralph is an engineer and engineers with good ears advance the state of the art. Intellectual honesty is rare I the audio world. Thanks Ralph!

    There is a political/conspiracy subtext which is really weird. Why be concerned about something so improbable that it is laughable, as proven by a category of audiophile product that should already be banned in EU but is alive and well and even thriving. That product is linear power supplies, which are believed to be audibly far superior to their switch mode counterparts, so much so that they are used to power devices whose first action is to take this linear glory and input it to…….you guessed it, a switch mode power supply!

    “It is new, therefore we must reject it” seems to be alive and well.
    Tom

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  22. #72
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by W9TR View Post

    “It is new, therefore we must reject it” seems to be alive and well.
    I'm an 'early adopter' in the consumer life cycle. I love new technology - except when I don't like how it sounds or works. Aren't we well past the life cycle of class D being considered new technology? I think Mike mentioned its been out for like 20 years?

    If anyone still thinks after reading all these posts that this is an anti-class D thread (especially people 'scared' of new stuff that is 20 years old technology) and not about the real issues that has been repeated multiple times, then they are choosing to ignore the obvious.
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

  23. #73
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    When I first started posting my ideas of 'sensible' on ASR I got so many posters twisting my comments to fit their arguments that it did get frustrating holding my ground until I was satisfied my points were clear. Along the way I blocked enough posters and enough blocked me that I can go there and post without getting into long winded repeats anymore.

    To the OP's point I really enjoy my motorcycles and was terrified that euro 5 was going to neuter my favorite summer hobby. Somehow the manufacturers are making the bikes lighter and more powerful while reducing emissions and noise. Maybe as appliance laws tighten the hi end manufacturers will employ big pulsing brains that can make the class D amps sound like the the sound we.ve come to love from from a/ab amps? like a previous poster said Bob Carver could do it 25 or so years ago locking himself up in a hotel room for a couple days made his own amp sound identical to the Conrad Johnson submitted by stereophile staff.
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  24. #74
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Aren't we well past the life cycle of class D being considered new technology? I think Mike mentioned its been out for like 20 years?

    It may be true (it is true) that Class D has been around for 20 years or so and it may be true (it is true) that 20 years ago (even maybe 10 years ago) it was pretty crap, but Class D is the only technology that has been genuinely improving over those last 20 years. It has now reached the stage that there's little valid reason (apart from nostalgia or pig-headedness ) not to accept this.

    Did you buy a digital camera 30 years ago? I hope not as it was pretty crap compared with film. Would you buy a film camera now? I doubt it because digital has developed to the extent there is no need for film apart from nostalgia or pig-headedness. Where do you stand on digital photography?
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  25. #75
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    Where do you stand on digital photography?
    You may want reread my entire post you quoted above as it may be helpful. Especially the sentence that reads "If anyone still thinks after reading all these posts that this is an anti-class D thread (especially people 'scared' of new stuff that is 20 years old technology) and not about the real issues that has been repeated multiple times, then they are choosing to ignore the obvious."

    You will find no where is digital photography mentioned.

    Edited to add: Trying to compare a MARKET driven advancement in technology with a completely arbitrary and devoid-of-any-facts greenie mandate again purposely misses the point that has been repeated multiple times in this thread.
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  26. #76
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Has anyone (consumer) actually heard the Atma-sphere Class D amps?

    All I really have to add is that at Florida Expo, two of my favorite rooms were using class D amps - AGD and Aavik.

    That said, I tried a (lower level) Aavik at home, and I preferred the Boulder I eventually bought. The Aavik sounded great, but I found the Boulder a bit more to my taste, but the Boulder was approx double the $. Maybe the higher Aavik would have competed better. But I also listened to other A, A/B amps I also didn’t like as much, so I don’t know what that tells you in the end.

    Other than what we hear from people who’ve directly compared similarly priced D vs A or A/B amps, in the same system, it’s just conjecture.

    (Is Class D actually “digital” as some have said? I don’t really understand that.)
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  27. #77
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

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  28. #78
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Class D is not really ‘digital’.
    Digital encoding involves two processes, sampling and quantization.
    1. It is sampled and not continuous in time.
    2. It quantized and not continuous in amplitude.

    Class D amplifiers in their purest form don’t sample or quantize. They can, some do, but it is not a requirement or inherent in the design.
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  29. #79

    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    I think that the OP is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill!

  30. #80
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    I think that the OP is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill!
    Ahh the joys of partaking on a forum being able to discuss all topics, large and small. I love it! What a wonderful world we live in to be able to do that.
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  31. #81
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    I hope you are right. However it has already become enough of a concern that Luxman stopped making their 590 Class A integrateds and they openly stated its due to environmental regulations.
    Michael,

    I've searched the internet for any news release concerning why the 590 Class A integrated amps are being discontinued, but I've come up empty. Could you direct me to the news release from Luxman declaring this?

    Regards,

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  32. #82
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    I think it takes about 40 years for an audio technology to get to a reasonable state of maturity. So Class D is about halfway there.

    The complementary and quasi complementary class AB amplifier reached a state of maturity some 40 years after its introduction. There are some fine examples of the art today, but true innovation has essentially vanished and we are seeing incremental improvements in devices, materials, fit, and finish..

    Class D still has along innovation horizon ahead of it.

    The first Class D amplifier I worked on was the modulator for a 50kW broadcast transmitter, where efficiency represented dollars of profit for the broadcaster. Eliminating the modulation transformer was a huge improvement in performance.

    Our friends in Hawaii may be the first to truly embrace Class D. Their average power cost is $0.44 per kWh and rising.
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  33. #83
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by mresseguie View Post
    Michael,

    I've searched the internet for any news release concerning why the 590 Class A integrated amps are being discontinued, but I've come up empty. Could you direct me to the news release from Luxman declaring this?

    Regards,

    Michael
    Hi Mike - Along with it being referenced in various reviews I've read, Mike @ Suncoast was told this himself by Luxman.
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  34. #84
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    The op reads to me like 'are stricter green laws going to destroy audio?'
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  35. #85
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by steve59 View Post
    The op reads to me like 'are stricter green laws going to destroy audio?'
    They are going to destroy a lot of things.
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Boy, this thread deteriorated faster than I thought!
    About as quickly as I thought it would.

    When politics enter hi fi, happens.
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  37. #87

    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bart001 View Post
    About as quickly as I thought it would.

    When politics enter hi fi, happens.
    100% every time. People can't help themselves when the opportunity arises.
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  38. #88
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    I'm an 'early adopter' in the consumer life cycle. I love new technology - except when I don't like how it sounds or works. Aren't we well past the life cycle of class D being considered new technology? I think Mike mentioned its been out for like 20 years?

    If anyone still thinks after reading all these posts that this is an anti-class D thread (especially people 'scared' of new stuff that is 20 years old technology) and not about the real issues that has been repeated multiple times, then they are choosing to ignore the obvious.
    I tried to put this gently in my prior posts, but apparently it didn't get through. Your idea that somehow there's a green movement to rid the world of class A biased amplifiers is so much poppycock. Seriously. Don't. Worry. About. It. Its just not a thing. If you think it is, please supply the information about where you found this out. And also please explain what will happen when your source is proven to be incorrect. Put another way, the 'greenies' aren't out to get you or audio
    Quote Originally Posted by nc42acc View Post
    Great seeing you are creating your own circuitry for the Class D amps. Are you using SMPS or Linear PS? Sorry to deviate from topic.
    Our class D employs a module of our own design. Currently it uses a toroid power transformer. We used off the shelf SMPSs during prototyping but found they current limit too readily. So we are planning a SMPS that we design for this application; IME/IMO that is the only way you can make SMPSs work properly in a class D because of the current limiting thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    How much are your Class D mono's? I didn't find it on your site. Looked like they are only 100 watts, is that right?

    I really think you over estimate the importance and performance of Class D.
    Goto our site, hover over Products, click on 'class D'

    The importance of class D is not in its greater efficiency although that is a nice benefit. IMO the real importance is the ability to use large amounts of feedback and wind up with a very stable amplifier design. One reason class A solid state amps don't work is they are unable to use enough feedback. This is because they are limited by frequency poles that create phase shift (limiting the phase margin of the amp and thus how much feedback can be used without oscillation problems) and/or they lack the Gain Bandwidth Product to support the feedback at higher frequencies (typically above 2-3KHz where you see distortion rising with frequency because the feedback is decreasing). Of course they can play the bass alright because there's enough feedback at those frequencies. Class D allows you to get around that limitation in a very elegant manner.

    I should point out that in a traditional Class A amp the feedback is typically brought back to a point in the amp from the speakers to the feedback node- which is typically a transistor of a differential input pair. That transistor isn't linear and so the feedback is distorted before it can do its job. This causes the generation of higher ordered harmonics because of the feedback error. The ear interprets this as brightness and harshness. The class A operation is intended to improve linearity and it does, but misses the problem occurring at the input of the amp. So its hot and its harsh, although maybe not as harsh as some AB amps.

    But make no mistake harshness and brightness is a coloration.

  39. #89
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    I tried to put this gently in my prior posts, but apparently it didn't get through. Your idea that somehow there's a green movement to rid the world of class A biased amplifiers is so much poppycock. Seriously. Don't. Worry. About. It. Its just not a thing. If you think it is, please supply the information about where you found this out. And also please explain what will happen when your source is proven to be incorrect. Put another way, the 'greenies' aren't out to get you or audio

    Wow - so you are calling Mike @ Suncoast and Luxman themselves liars based on what? Proven how? Cause you say so? LOL

    Nicely done.

    You've clearly taken this post in a direction to lecture us on how good your class D amp is that no-one here seems to have heard. Instead of trying to turn this thread into a sales pitch for yourself, try and stick to the original question that has been reposted several times yet you've chosen to ignore for your own personal business gains.

    It appears you may be sitting on a large stock of unsold Class D amps you are trying to desperately unload. Why else would you keep tuning this thread into it being al about you and your amps?
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  40. #90
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Wow - so you are calling Mike @ Suncoast and Luxman themselves liars based on what? Proven how? Cause you say so? LOL

    Nicely done.

    You've clearly taken this post in a direction to lecture us on how good your class D amp is that no-one here seems to have heard. Instead of trying to turn this thread into a sales pitch for yourself, try and stick to the original question that has been reposted several times yet you've chosen to ignore for your own personal business gains.

    It appears you may be sitting on a large stock of unsold Class D amps you are trying to desperately unload. Why else would you keep tuning this thread into it being al about you and your amps?
    No- not calling you a liar- that is clearly not what I said. I am saying however that if you have a source for that, it is in error.

    WRT the class D amps, again the technology is the elephant in the room, based on your first post to this thread. In our case (I can't speak for others) we can't make the amps fast enough. So if you want one, you'll have to wait; right now it appears that orders we take today will ship in January.

  41. #91
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    No- not calling you a liar- that is clearly not what I said. I am saying however that if you have a source for that, it is in error.

    .
    In error how??? How are you calling them wrong? Based on what??

    And I can see why not shipping until January with the parts shortage and all the long off-topic self marketing posts you've posted on this thread to divert from the real topic.
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  42. #92
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    In error how??? How are you calling them wrong? Based on what??
    We've been in business for over 49 years. As you can imagine, I know a lot of people in the industry including other amplifier manufacturers. If there were something out there even as a proposal, we would have heard about it one way or the other. Keep in mind that our amps for their power draw more energy from the wall than anyone else's, owing to a rather prodigious filament circuit to run all those power tubes. But on this topic other than this thread there is crickets. Someone somewhere would have mentioned something But no.

    So this leads me to two possibilities: one is that you inquired out of concern. The other is you heard something from somewhere, from someone who might be overly paranoid. I don't know which. But your concern isn't founded and you can take some heart in that.

  43. #93
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    We've been in business for over 49 years. As you can imagine, I know a lot of people in the industry including other amplifier manufacturers. If there were something out there even as a proposal, we would have heard about it one way or the other. Keep in mind that our amps for their power draw more energy from the wall than anyone else's, owing to a rather prodigious filament circuit to run all those power tubes. But on this topic other than this thread there is crickets. Someone somewhere would have mentioned something But no.

    So this leads me to two possibilities: one is that you inquired out of concern. The other is you heard something from somewhere, from someone who might be overly paranoid. I don't know which. But your concern isn't founded and you can take some heart in that.
    So you must have missed the post where I answered where I heard it from. Funny you keep ignoring that point.

    And once again you've missed the point of the entire original post and sidetracked to an argument that is not a part of the post. There clearly is no amount of clarity that can get you on point to the original post and question. May want to get working on those back orders rather than continually purposely posting off topic here.
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  44. #94
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Think you might have your Class D amps at the Florida Audio Expo in February?

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post

    WRT the class D amps, again the technology is the elephant in the room, based on your first post to this thread. In our case (I can't speak for others) we can't make the amps fast enough. So if you want one, you'll have to wait; right now it appears that orders we take today will ship in January.
    Marty

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  45. #95
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by nc42acc View Post
    Think you might have your Class D amps at the Florida Audio Expo in February?
    I think so. I might even be there this time too.
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    So you must have missed the post where I answered where I heard it from. Funny you keep ignoring that point.

    And once again you've missed the point of the entire original post and sidetracked to an argument that is not a part of the post. There clearly is no amount of clarity that can get you on point to the original post and question. May want to get working on those back orders rather than continually purposely posting off topic here.
    All I've been able to find were your comments about Luxman but they have nothing to that effect on their website- their latest news item is about a new class A amp... So I'm forced to conclude that either you're referring to someone else or you are correct and I missed a comment somewhere. Could you enlighten me?

  46. #96
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post

    All I've been able to find were your comments about Luxman but they have nothing to that effect on their website- their latest news item is a about a new class A amp. . So I'm forced to conclude that either you're referring to someone else or you are correct and I missed a comment somewhere. Could you enlighten me?
    I really think you need to focus on your back order and spend less time diverting this thread. I bet you could get those back orders built in time for Christmas if you spent all the time building you are spending here diverting. I'm still waiting for you to call out directly the person I mentioned.

    I can't be any more clear than what I've already posted that you've chosen to ignore.
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  47. #97
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    I hope I can make it in February. Would be great to meet you and hear your Class D amps.

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    I think so. I might even be there this time too.
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  48. #98
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    So you must have missed the post where I answered where I heard it from. Funny you keep ignoring that point.
    Perhaps you could ask your source of this claim to post here to confirm what you say? Otherwise there seems to be no more authority behind your claim than your own somewhat suspect words. Most of these words seem to be a personal bitter rant about Class A and forces you claim are trying to destroy audio. What a load a b*****ks!
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  49. #99
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    Perhaps you could ask your source of this claim to post here to confirm what you say? Otherwise there seems to be no more authority behind your claim than your own somewhat suspect words. Most of these words seem to be a personal bitter rant about Class A and forces you claim are trying to destroy audio. What a load a b*****ks!
    LOL. A personal bitter rant. LOL. I prefer tubes and class a/b over Class A, but I understand you enjoy stirring the pot just like you did on that other forum with them there.

    I posted above about him. You are welcome to reach out to him if you don't believe me. But I bet you won't.

    BTW, I am enjoying how much you two either won't/can't read the posts or have and refuse to acknowledge him. Funny since he responded to you and you ignored him.

    ETA: You can keep trying with the personal attacks as that is only a reflection on you and not me. I really don't care and it surely doesn't make your intentional diverting any less entertaining.
    Last edited by MichaelsMinute; November 14, 2022 at 07:08 PM. Reason: Added the ETA sentence
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

  50. #100
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    Re: Are they going to destroy audio?

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    All I've been able to find were your comments about Luxman but they have nothing to that effect on their website- their latest news item is about a new class A amp.
    Just for clarification purposes, the latest news is actually very old news (18 months ago) and it’s about the 595 amp which was a limited production and is now completely sold out.

    As for Class A, I sure hope we see Luxman making class A amps again! The 590 and 595 were sublime.

    Looking forward to hearing your amps in February.




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    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Enleum (Bakoon), Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, Franco Serblin Loudspeakers, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, HiFi Rose, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Koetsu Cartridges, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

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AudioShark - The Best High End Audio Discussion forum.

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Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.

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The Audioshark.org Team

Are they going to destroy audio?

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