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  1. #1

    A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    In the past two weeks I attended a couple of live concerts. One was a pop music concert; the other a performance of Mahler's Resurrection Symphony.

    The sound of the Pop concert was not good at all. To be fair, it was set in a basketball arena which is not a music venue. The sound was so loud that the sound waves would travel the entire arena and reflect from the back wall muddling the sound. I recall thinking: I can do much better at home.

    By contrast, the sound of Mahler's 2nd in a concert hall (Kennedy Center) was nothing short of spectacular. My stereo system, by comparison, sounds puny compared to the expansive landscape of sound and the dynamics of a full orchestra with over 200 performers on stage. This is the true "absolute sound" and while we can enjoy listening to our stereo systems, there is absolutely no way that a two-speaker system can replicate that.

  2. #2
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    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    I have never wanted my system to sound like the concerts I have attended. AKA Live Music.

    I am not very schooled in Classical but did attend the Philly Pops with John Glenn when the Kimmel Center first opened. It was like sitting inside of a huge Cello.
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  3. #3
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    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    Brian, the Kimmel center did have some problematic SQ issues when it first opened. With that being said they have been resolved and I for one consider it quite good. Prior to COVID I averaged 2-3 concerts a year
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  4. #4

    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    In the past two weeks I attended a couple of live concerts. One was a pop music concert; the other a performance of Mahler's Resurrection Symphony.

    The sound of the Pop concert was not good at all. To be fair, it was set in a basketball arena which is not a music venue. The sound was so loud that the sound waves would travel the entire arena and reflect from the back wall muddling the sound. I recall thinking: I can do much better at home.

    By contrast, the sound of Mahler's 2nd in a concert hall (Kennedy Center) was nothing short of spectacular. My stereo system, by comparison, sounds puny compared to the expansive landscape of sound and the dynamics of a full orchestra with over 200 performers on stage. This is the true "absolute sound" and while we can enjoy listening to our stereo systems, there is absolutely no way that a two-speaker system can replicate that.
    Thanks Captain Obvious.
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  5. #5

    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Thanks Captain Obvious.
    Glad to hear that it is even obvious to you!!

  6. #6

    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Glad to hear that it is even obvious to you!!
    I'm glad it was such a revelation for you.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

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  7. #7
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    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    Mahlers 2nd: my favorite classical symphony. Once, I got the opportunity to listen that one in the Royal Concert Building in Amsterdam. It was so beautiful and got something what never happened to me before, I got tears in my eyes when the Alt started singing. And the best part still had to come, the last 15 minutes, when the chorus stands up,

    That sound from there: it cannot be reached by any system, it does not even come close. In my opinion, everyone who loves classical, must visit a live concert from the second of Mahler.

  8. #8

    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkyogre View Post
    Mahlers 2nd: my favorite classical symphony. Once, I got the opportunity to listen that one in the Royal Concert Building in Amsterdam. It was so beautiful and got something what never happened to me before, I got tears in my eyes when the Alt started singing. And the best part still had to come, the last 15 minutes, when the chorus stands up,

    That sound from there: it cannot be reached by any system, it does not even come close. In my opinion, everyone who loves classical, must visit a live concert from the second of Mahler.
    The combination of the power and emotion of the Resurrection Symphony and the spectacular acoustics of the Concertgebouw must have been thrilling. I assume it was performed by the RCOA, one of the two or three best orchestras in the world. What a treat. Larry
    Analog-VPIClassic3-3DArm,Lyra Skala+MiyajimaZeroMono,2xAmpex ATR-102,Otari MX5050B2, Merrill Trident Tape Preamp, Herron VTPH-2A&BottleheadPhonoPre,
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  9. #9
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    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkyogre View Post
    That sound from there: it cannot be reached by any system, it does not even come close. In my opinion, everyone who loves classical, must visit a live concert from the second of Mahler.
    Agree with the latter but disagree with the former. While 100% true inside the audiophile bubble, outside it was entirely possible to come "scarily" close...20+ years ago.
    But more to Nicoff's point, very very few "audiophiles" today want any such thing, most don't listen to classical at all, well stated by the other witness of the same experience

    I drove back to Brooklyn deep in thought. There was no doubt that I had experienced audio playback of considerably higher fidelity than I had ever experienced from a two-channel system. But did I want that experience in my own listening room? As always, it comes down to what you want a recording to do: reproduce the music you love in "whatever fidelity is appropriate"; or reproduce a very small amount of other people's music in as high a fidelity as possible.
    Bold emphasis mine.

    Btw, what is a "Bach He2S speaker"? Google shows something off Alibaba that looks like a Tannoy.

    Edit, never mind, Bach Luidsprekers did it

    cheers,

    AJ

  10. #10
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    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post



    Edit, never mind, Bach Luidsprekers did it

    cheers,

    AJ
    Pretty interesting looking speakers, I have a CD Rack to match them


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    Brian

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    Secondary - OPPO 93 > VAC CLA 1 MKII Pre > Odyssey Stratos > Dynaudio Audience 82s > Tara Labs Cables


  11. #11
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    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    Hah, yes

  12. #12

    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Agree with the latter but disagree with the former. While 100% true inside the audiophile bubble, outside it was entirely possible to come "scarily" close...20+ years ago.
    But more to Nicoff's point, very very few "audiophiles" today want any such thing, most don't listen to classical at all, well stated by the other witness of the same experience


    Bold emphasis mine.

    Btw, what is a "Bach He2S speaker"? Google shows something off Alibaba that looks like a Tannoy.

    Edit, never mind, Bach Luidsprekers did it

    cheers,

    AJ
    If it sounded so good, how come 20+ years later people still aren't buying it?
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

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  13. #13
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    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield
    Agree with the latter but disagree with the former. While 100% true inside the audiophile bubble, outside it was entirely possible to come "scarily" close...20+ years ago.
    But more to Nicoff's point, very very few "audiophiles" today want any such thing, most don't listen to classical at all, well stated by the other witness of the same experience
    If it sounded so good, how come 20+ years later people still aren't buying it?
    You already quoted my answer.
    Truthfully, one certainly wouldn't need a PSR type system to play Oingo Boingo, Foghat, etc that audiophiles judge "SQ" by.

  14. #14
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    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    When i go to a pop/rock concert at one of those sports arenas, I splurge and buy floor seats at around row 10-15. That's probably the best I can do, sound wise (and it's fun to actually see the performers).

    If I do the experiment and turn my head 90 degrees, the huge echo is very apparent. Which is one reason why sitting in those "luxury suites" for a concert is terrible if you actually want to hear it.
    Sources: Naim ND555/555PS | Roon Nucleus | Naim Soltstice Special Edition turntable and phono stage
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  15. #15
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    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    Quote Originally Posted by Bart001 View Post
    Which is one reason why sitting in those "luxury suites" for a concert is terrible if you actually want to hear it.
    Well, a wall of mono at obscene SPLs sounds just fine to me from suites, I'm really just enjoying the atmosphere/music/musicianship itself, not at all listening for "SQ". And of course the imbibing and nourishments flows more easily, not to mention access to bathroom!

    cheers,

    AJ

  16. #16
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    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    Quote Originally Posted by Bart001 View Post
    When i go to a pop/rock concert at one of those sports arenas, I splurge and buy floor seats at around row 10-15. That's probably the best I can do, sound wise (and it's fun to actually see the performers).

    If I do the experiment and turn my head 90 degrees, the huge echo is very apparent. Which is one reason why sitting in those "luxury suites" for a concert is terrible if you actually want to hear it.
    We have an old decent size theater nearby called the Keswick Theatre. Sound is decent almost anywhere, but I always felt it was better in the last few rows. I would regularly watch half the show from my seat up front, then take an empty seat in the back for the other half of the show for the SQ vs seeing their fingers on stage.
    -----------------
    Brian

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    Rotel RCD-1572 / Rega P3 > Luxman 505UX Mark II > Fyne Audio F502SPs > Synergistic Cables

    Secondary - OPPO 93 > VAC CLA 1 MKII Pre > Odyssey Stratos > Dynaudio Audience 82s > Tara Labs Cables


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    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Hah, yes
    An overview of my current system. This month I added the Bryston preamp and the NCore monoblocks.
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    As source the intel nuc with fanless case with the Singxer digital to digital converter connected to the denafrips ares dac.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  18. #18
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    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    Very cool. Always fascinated by brands I'd never heard of before.

  19. #19
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    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Well, a wall of mono at obscene SPLs sounds just fine to me from suites, I'm really just enjoying the atmosphere/music/musicianship itself, not at all listening for "SQ". And of course the imbibing and nourishments flows more easily, not to mention access to bathroom!

    cheers,

    AJ
    I dont "listen for SQ," I find the huge echo so utterly distracting that I don't enjoy the music. In the TD Garden (Boston), the echo really is horrendous.
    Sources: Naim ND555/555PS | Roon Nucleus | Naim Soltstice Special Edition turntable and phono stage
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  20. #20
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    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    About Mahler Symphonies: the second one, the resurrection it is amazing, but for me, the third one love it very much, in my opinion the second and third are absolutely in quality unbelievable

    After those 2 I love the 5th because of the adagio inside, they may turn that one at my funeral: it sounds like funeral music, but it is written a love song. I think this adagio is the best part in Mahler symphonies.

    The 1st one, I love it, a famous kids song is originated from first

    Also great, the 6th and 4th.

  21. #21

    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkyogre View Post
    About Mahler Symphonies: the second one, the resurrection it is amazing, but for me, the third one love it very much, in my opinion the second and third are absolutely in quality unbelievable

    After those 2 I love the 5th because of the adagio inside, they may turn that one at my funeral: it sounds like funeral music, but it is written a love song. I think this adagio is the best part in Mahler symphonies.

    The 1st one, I love it, a famous kids song is originated from first

    Also great, the 6th and 4th.
    I totally understand you!

    It is hard to pick just one when it comes to Mahler!

    But… you did not mention Das Lied von der Erde. The last movement, "Der Abschied", might just be the supreme Mahler for me.

    (By the way, since you like the adagietto of the 5th, you can hear its beginnings in this Mahler’s song: “Ich bin der Welt”)

    PS. The adagietto of Mahler’s 5th was the music picked by Leonard Berstein for the funeral of President John F. Kennedy.

  22. #22
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    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    Quote Originally Posted by Bart001 View Post
    I dont "listen for SQ," I find the huge echo so utterly distracting that I don't enjoy the music. In the TD Garden (Boston), the echo really is horrendous.
    That would be rather annoying. No such issues at my local venues, at least the ones I attend.

  23. #23

    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    My stereo system, by comparison, sounds puny compared to the expansive landscape of sound and the dynamics of a full orchestra with over 200 performers on stage. This is the true "absolute sound" and while we can enjoy listening to our stereo systems, there is absolutely no way that a two-speaker system can replicate that.
    Nicoff,

    The next time you go to a live concert, in an tutti moment, with all the orchestra playing, look at the pianist. His hands move, his body moves and yet you can't hear him.
    But in your system you can! Ah!

  24. #24

    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    Nicoff,

    The next time you go to a live concert, in an tutti moment, with all the orchestra playing, look at the pianist. His hands move, his body moves and yet you can't hear him.
    But in your system you can! Ah!
    That is yet another example of where live music and recorded music differ. In just about any symphonic work where there is piano (e.g., a piano concerto), the composer gives the pianist plenty of time to shine. That is when the pianist/piano take front stage and the orchestra plays a companion role. In a live performance, at the point when you hear a tutti orchestral moment, that is a time for the full orchestra to shine/lead and for the piano/pianist to become just another member of the orchestra.

  25. #25

    Re: A Tale of Two Live Concerts

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    In a live performance, at the point when you hear a tutti orchestral moment, that is a time for the full orchestra to shine/lead and for the piano/pianist to become just another member of the orchestra.
    I don't think this is the thinking of many sound engineers who ALWAYS seek to capture the individual contribution of all instruments, so that we, audiophiles can then spend a lifetime looking for that symbiosis between the part and the whole, trying to discern, in the message musical, every detail that composes it.

    Cheers!

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A Tale of Two Live Concerts

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