Thread: Speaker /amp incompatibility

Hello all,
Is there any reasonable explanation why a Luxman L-590AXII and a pair of Focal Sopra 1 speakers would absolutely not work well together? I have this pairing and after 12 months of fighting with a every minute possibility to improve things, I'm giving up and one of the two will have to go.
Electrically speaking, the 2 units are not blatantly at odds: the 590AXII may be only 30/60W in Class A but then shifts to AB to an even higher output rating, and the PS is purportedly a +/- 600VA beast.
The Sopras aren't necessarily an easy load but at 89db, 8 ohms nominal with a lowest dip at 3,9 ohms it shouldn't be mission impossible...
However, the main complaint is a mushy, boomy, one-note, droning, ill-intentioned, undisciplined and basically horrific bass response and an overall flat and lifeless sound.
Room is the same 4x8m listening space since 26 years. 8 GIK panels installed. Changed every imaginable cable combination under the sun, atleast 50 times. Changed sources as well, speaker position, isolation feet under electronics...you name it.
The only changed variable was the Luxman. 3 generations of previous Naim amplification worked infinitely better, so did Musical Fidelity.
Any miraculous advice or suggestions on which to keep and which to get rid of?
Thanks you!
David

Originally Posted by David60

Hello all,
Is there any reasonable explanation why a Luxman L-590AXII and a pair of Focal Sopra 1 speakers would absolutely not work well together? I have this pairing and after 12 months of fighting with a every minute possibility to improve things, I'm giving up and one of the two will have to go.
Electrically speaking, the 2 units are not blatantly at odds: the 590AXII may be only 30/60W in Class A but then shifts to AB to an even higher output rating, and the PS is purportedly a +/- 600VA beast.
The Sopras aren't necessarily an easy load but at 89db, 8 ohms nominal with a lowest dip at 3,9 ohms it shouldn't be mission impossible...
However, the main complaint is a mushy, boomy, one-note, droning, ill-intentioned, undisciplined and basically horrific bass response and an overall flat and lifeless sound.
Room is the same 4x8m listening space since 26 years. 8 GIK panels installed. Changed every imaginable cable combination under the sun, atleast 50 times. Changed sources as well, speaker position, isolation feet under electronics...you name it.
The only changed variable was the Luxman. 3 generations of previous Naim amplification worked infinitely better, so did Musical Fidelity.
Any miraculous advice or suggestions on which to keep and which to get rid of?
Thanks you!
David

What feet do you have under the Focals and what is your floor material? "Mushy bass" may be mitigated by by reviewing these features. I've not used any of the kit you list, but I improved my bass detail and clarity considerably by moving away from spikes.

What cables are you using for the Sopra + Luxman combination?
Sorry to hear that they have not been working well for you.



.

Originally Posted by Nikhil

What cables are you using for the Sopra + Luxman combination?
Sorry to hear that they have not been working well for you.

.

Thanks for reply but cables don't matter in this case. I have gone through 4 full looms of different electrical valued cables and as expected, there is no beneficial (or detrimental) effect. Same with power cords, ethernet cable, BNC digital, RCA interconnects. It's a literal fool's game expecting something from that, IMHO in my setup.

Deleted.

Originally Posted by Hear Here

What feet do you have under the Focals and what is your floor material? "Mushy bass" may be mitigated by by reviewing these features. I've not used any of the kit you list, but I improved my bass detail and clarity considerably by moving away from spikes.

Hi, thanks for reply. Do you mean a solution like iso-acoustics or the like?

Originally Posted by David60

Hello all,
Is there any reasonable explanation why a Luxman L-590AXII and a pair of Focal Sopra 1 speakers would absolutely not work well together? I have this pairing and after 12 months of fighting with a every minute possibility to improve things, I'm giving up and one of the two will have to go.
Electrically speaking, the 2 units are not blatantly at odds: the 590AXII may be only 30/60W in Class A but then shifts to AB to an even higher output rating, and the PS is purportedly a +/- 600VA beast.
The Sopras aren't necessarily an easy load but at 89db, 8 ohms nominal with a lowest dip at 3,9 ohms it shouldn't be mission impossible...
However, the main complaint is a mushy, boomy, one-note, droning, ill-intentioned, undisciplined and basically horrific bass response and an overall flat and lifeless sound.
Room is the same 4x8m listening space since 26 years. 8 GIK panels installed. Changed every imaginable cable combination under the sun, atleast 50 times. Changed sources as well, speaker position, isolation feet under electronics...you name it.
The only changed variable was the Luxman. 3 generations of previous Naim amplification worked infinitely better, so did Musical Fidelity.
Any miraculous advice or suggestions on which to keep and which to get rid of?
Thanks you!
David

"the only changed variable was the Luxman"

next ...........

Originally Posted by Mikado463

"the only changed variable was the Luxman"

next ...........

Yes, indeed but does that mean the Luxman is a poorly engineered piece of equipment? Still at square one on deciding which to ditch and which to keep...

Originally Posted by David60

Hello all,
Is there any reasonable explanation why a Luxman L-590AXII and a pair of Focal Sopra 1 speakers would absolutely not work well together? I have this pairing and after 12 months of fighting with a every minute possibility to improve things, I'm giving up and one of the two will have to go.
Electrically speaking, the 2 units are not blatantly at odds: the 590AXII may be only 30/60W in Class A but then shifts to AB to an even higher output rating, and the PS is purportedly a +/- 600VA beast.
The Sopras aren't necessarily an easy load but at 89db, 8 ohms nominal with a lowest dip at 3,9 ohms it shouldn't be mission impossible...
However, the main complaint is a mushy, boomy, one-note, droning, ill-intentioned, undisciplined and basically horrific bass response and an overall flat and lifeless sound.
Room is the same 4x8m listening space since 26 years. 8 GIK panels installed. Changed every imaginable cable combination under the sun, atleast 50 times. Changed sources as well, speaker position, isolation feet under electronics...you name it.
The only changed variable was the Luxman. 3 generations of previous Naim amplification worked infinitely better, so did Musical Fidelity.
Any miraculous advice or suggestions on which to keep and which to get rid of?
Thanks you!
David

No sub involved? I'm trying to figure out how you have out of control/horrific bass response with a single 6 1/2" bass/midrange driver per channel that is 6dB down at 41 Hz. Have you tried another amp besides the Luxman?

What happens if you move your listening seat to a different spot in the room (just for testing)?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Originally Posted by David60

Yes, indeed but does that mean the Luxman is a poorly engineered piece of equipment? Still at square one on deciding which to ditch and which to keep...

perhaps the difference in DF between the amps ? I don't know the specs for your amps ?

Originally Posted by mep

No sub involved? I'm trying to figure out how you have out of control/horrific bass response with a single 6 1/2" bass/midrange driver per channel that is 6dB down at 41 Hz. Have you tried another amp besides the Luxman?

No, no sub at all. Believe me, I don't understand either. Naim, Musical Fidelity and Jadis in same system/situation never did this. It can only be the Luxman...

[QUOTE=Mike;366439]What happens if you move your listening seat to a different spot in the room (just for testing)?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro[/QUOTE

Hello Mike,
Thanks for answering. Yes, moving around can change the intensity of the problem by sitting in or out of a room mode but the basic anomaly here remains: ill-defined, boomy one-note bass WITH the speakers ports plugged, which I previously never had to do.
You mentioned here once that B&W and Fyne could be associated with Luxman. Do you still recommend them and has your thinking/experience evolved on this point?
Thanks!

[QUOTE=David60;366442]

Originally Posted by Mike

What happens if you move your listening seat to a different spot in the room (just for testing)?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro[/QUOTE

Hello Mike,
Thanks for answering. Yes, moving around can change the intensity of the problem by sitting in or out of a room mode but the basic anomaly here remains: ill-defined, boomy one-note bass WITH the speakers ports plugged, which I previously never had to do.
You mentioned here once that B&W and Fyne could be associated with Luxman. Do you still recommend them and has your thinking/experience evolved on this point?
Thanks!

What happens is that you completely change how you hear the sound waves in your room. In many rooms, moving your listening seat 3 feet back or 3 feet forward from where it is now, will yield significant changes in the bass region. Moving it 5 feet forward or back, yields different results again. It’s important to understand that room nodes are completely different based on where you measure (or listen). A comprehensive study using testing equipment, may yield the flattest results (the ultimate objective) 3 feet back and 5 feet to the left (completely not acceptable for listening, but interesting nonetheless). Therefore, we always start by leaving the speakers in their ideal spot for your room and moving the listening position backwards or forwards. If you don’t want to move a chair, simply move yourself and stand.

Before considering new speakers, try this experiment first. If it’s still bad and you want to try something else, B&W and Fyne are “fine” options.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

This is interesting. It sounds as if the addition of the Luxman changed the locations of the nodes. Correct? Is this a phase shift phenomenon? For example, I have a troublesome low bass node, and pretty severe restrictions in seating and speaker placement. Would a different component change this? I assume changing phase polarity would not help.... It appears that at low frequencies sound waves can be as long as 17m. This could create challenges!

Originally Posted by Ricky64

This is interesting. It sounds as if the addition of the Luxman changed the locations of the nodes. Correct? Is this a phase shift phenomenon? For example, I have a troublesome low bass node, and pretty severe restrictions in seating and speaker placement. Would a different component change this? I assume changing phase polarity would not help.... It appears that at low frequencies sound waves can be as long as 17m. This could create challenges!

Yes, unless you’re in the crazy camp of “all amps sound the same”, then yes, different amps can accentuate different frequencies and control different frequencies better.

Bass from a Soulution vs bass from a tube amp as an example.

And remember, subs can also really help tame bass nodes. Active bass traps can also be very effective, but remember, you need 2-4 to really make them work effectively. PSI AVAA’s.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

I thought you answered your own question.

"The only changed variable was the Luxman. 3 generations of previous Naim amplification worked infinitely better, so did Musical Fidelity."

That said, I have always thought speakers were the most critical component. They had to work with the room and the listeners personal taste. I am not a fan of box speakers but I needed a pair for my 2-channel HT and audio setup. I was impressed by Sopra 2s at audio shows and considered them for my room. After reading the online manual I decided the ports were not compatible with where I had to place the speakers. I remembered the rooms I had heard the Sopra 2s in. They were larger than average and allowed good space behind and beside the speakers. I chose sealed Magico A5s instead. They still require more space than I can give them but I feel I made a better choice for my room.

Ask yourself why you changed amplification. Was it because you were never satisfied with the previous amps? "Infinitely better" does not necessarily mean you were satisfied. If you were satisfied you would go back to an amp that worked and stop all this nonsense. If you were never satisfied it is probably time to reconsider your speaker choice.

Good luck whichever way you go.

Originally Posted by David60

Hello all,
Is there any reasonable explanation why a Luxman L-590AXII and a pair of Focal Sopra 1 speakers would absolutely not work well together? I have this pairing and after 12 months of fighting with a every minute possibility to improve things, I'm giving up and one of the two will have to go.
Electrically speaking, the 2 units are not blatantly at odds: the 590AXII may be only 30/60W in Class A but then shifts to AB to an even higher output rating, and the PS is purportedly a +/- 600VA beast.
The Sopras aren't necessarily an easy load but at 89db, 8 ohms nominal with a lowest dip at 3,9 ohms it shouldn't be mission impossible...
However, the main complaint is a mushy, boomy, one-note, droning, ill-intentioned, undisciplined and basically horrific bass response and an overall flat and lifeless sound.
Room is the same 4x8m listening space since 26 years. 8 GIK panels installed. Changed every imaginable cable combination under the sun, atleast 50 times. Changed sources as well, speaker position, isolation feet under electronics...you name it.
The only changed variable was the Luxman. 3 generations of previous Naim amplification worked infinitely better, so did Musical Fidelity.
Any miraculous advice or suggestions on which to keep and which to get rid of?
Thanks you!
David

I would remove the speakers and best not to plug the port , if you want to attenuate bass output move them out from the walls for less bass. seriously , i would upgrade and move from such a small format speaker as your room is of decent size and can take a larger loudspeaker ..


Regards

I'm with Dave (Mikado463) on this one.

You said all of your previous amps and cables sounded just fine with the Focals, and ONLY the Luxman they don't. That pretty much tells me the Luxman is your issue.

Also, I must correct you on the power ratings of the Luxman. It is Class A only from what I can tell (even reading though the owner's manual), producing 30w @ 8 ohms and 60w @ 4 ohms. The damping factor of 320 is decent, but the amp itself just might be running out of steam and losing grip on the drivers, causing the sloppy bass.

Knowing what Naim gear you had powering the Focals before would help, but from what I looked at, they don't seem to mention the damping factor in their specs, but their power output seems to be a bit higher depending on the model.

Originally Posted by David60

Hi, thanks for reply. Do you mean a solution like iso-acoustics or the like?

Yes - what feet do you have under your speakers, or are they on spikes?

@chops
This amplifier produces the published Class A power as you kindly copy/pasted but up to 95w at 8ohms and 165w at 4 ohms as tested by Ken Kessler and Paul Miller in HiFi News a few years back. This is common knowledge for those who have interest in this amplifier and has been previously referenced on this forum as well. With an output transformer of 600VA there should be no lack of current either. Anyway, I will have the amplifier tested to make sure it is indeed performing according to spec, which I do suspect, in which case I may look for a better speaker/room match. Nobody could pay me enough to go back to Naim! (Supernait2, Supernait3, 282, 250, HCDR. nDAC, XPS2, ND5XS2).

As an experiment, Have you tried reversing the speaker cable polarity at the speakers?

Ok, you write about an amp incompatibility, but I think it's a speaker <-> room problem.

The speaker is too small for your 8x4m room.

Try the bigger Focal speaker series and you might be surprised what happens.

my 2 ct.

Originally Posted by atmasphere

Did you try reversing the phase on one speaker just to make sure your speakers are in phase?

You may have a test CD or two with a track to test phase. I always do a test of L/R and phase using a test CD after I make an amp or speaker swap.

Originally Posted by David60

@chops
This amplifier produces the published Class A power as you kindly copy/pasted but up to 95w at 8ohms and 165w at 4 ohms as tested by Ken Kessler and Paul Miller in HiFi News a few years back. This is common knowledge for those who have interest in this amplifier and has been previously referenced on this forum as well. With an output transformer of 600VA there should be no lack of current either. Anyway, I will have the amplifier tested to make sure it is indeed performing according to spec, which I do suspect, in which case I may look for a better speaker/room match. Nobody could pay me enough to go back to Naim! (Supernait2, Supernait3, 282, 250, HCDR. nDAC, XPS2, ND5XS2).

Okay, well I stand corrected. I was only going off of information on their website and their owner's manual, neither of which mention anything about the amp switching over to Class A/B or producing any more power than the rated 30/60 watts. And I never suggested that the amp didn't have a beefy enough power supply or lacked current.

With that said, as I mentioned before, if nothing else in your system/room/listening position has changed other than the amp, then it is ONLY the amp causing your current issues, or as you put it, "mushy, boomy, one-note, droning, ill-intentioned, undisciplined and basically horrific bass response and an overall flat and lifeless sound."

Everyone who's going on about cables, what footers are on the speakers, if the speaker cables are out of phase, is irrelevant. According to you, all of that has remained the same after the initial amp swap, and those who questioned about phase should know that if one of your speakers were out of phase, you certainly wouldn't be getting "boomy, one-note, droning" bass. No, if one speaker was wired out of phase, you wouldn't be getting any bass at all and the speakers would sound like they are 30ft apart.

That's why I don't get why people on here are asking you such questions. They make no sense as to what you have described.

Yes, you said this in the original post as well, "Changed every imaginable cable combination under the sun, at least 50 times. Changed sources as well, speaker position, isolation feet under electronics...you name it." But that was only AFTER you installed the Luxman as was attempting to resolve the issue by other means.

Source changes, cable changes, equipment isolation gear, amplifier changes, none of those should make that drastic of a degrade in sound quality.

Whether your speakers are incompatible with the amp or there's something wrong with the amp, the only answer to your original question is that it is the AMP.


And just curious, why does it sound like you have distaste against Naim now? At least you were getting good sound with that gear.

27 posts and the 'ONLY' thing that has changed is amplification.......... and we're still talking about this ?????????

Audiophiles, for Gods sakes what a goofy bunch !!!!


myself included .........

Originally Posted by Mikado463

27 posts and the 'ONLY' thing that has changed is amplification.......... and we're still talking about this ?????????

Audiophiles, for Gods sakes what a goofy bunch !!!!


myself included .........

Yup. Pretty sad, isn't it?

I think you and I are the only two who's actually paid attention to what the OP said in his first post.

I don’t get all the hand wringing. You changed the amp, you don’t like the way things sound. But did before you changed the amp, to a degree. You were seeking better. This amp, with current speakers, in the room you have, didn’t give you what you want.

Don’t be distracted by cables and footers and such - those can be marginal improvements, but the foundation has to be in your sweet spot first.

You have three choices. Keep amp rolling, start rolling speakers, or start swapping both. I’ve been through all those cycles; none are objectively wrong - just about budget, and fun, and access, and intuition. And now I have the system I always wanted.

Originally Posted by atmasphere

Normally I would agree- you make a change and things don't work right, maybe it has something to do with the change.

However, if the change introduced a speaker out of phase, while most of the time that can act just as you describe, it can also do what he described if there is a standing wave that normally cancels in the room.

I'm not too sure about that. I've never heard of a "boom" show up because one speaker is wired out of phase from the other. The room is just the room. It doesn't know or care if the speakers are in phase or not. If one of the dimensions of the room produces a suck-out, it's going to suck out that same frequency every time it presents itself no matter what.

Personally, I have never heard of certain bass notes magically appearing when I purposely wired speakers out of phase when those notes weren't there before. And any standing waves would be either drastically reduced or completely gone as well.

Originally Posted by chops

Okay, well I stand corrected. I was only going off of information on their website and their owner's manual, neither of which mention anything about the amp switching over to Class A/B or producing any more power than the rated 30/60 watts. And I never suggested that the amp didn't have a beefy enough power supply or lacked current.

With that said, as I mentioned before, if nothing else in your system/room/listening position has changed other than the amp, then it is ONLY the amp causing your current issues, or as you put it, "mushy, boomy, one-note, droning, ill-intentioned, undisciplined and basically horrific bass response and an overall flat and lifeless sound."

Everyone who's going on about cables, what footers are on the speakers, if the speaker cables are out of phase, is irrelevant. According to you, all of that has remained the same after the initial amp swap, and those who questioned about phase should know that if one of your speakers were out of phase, you certainly wouldn't be getting "boomy, one-note, droning" bass. No, if one speaker was wired out of phase, you wouldn't be getting any bass at all and the speakers would sound like they are 30ft apart.

That's why I don't get why people on here are asking you such questions. They make no sense as to what you have described.

Yes, you said this in the original post as well, "Changed every imaginable cable combination under the sun, at least 50 times. Changed sources as well, speaker position, isolation feet under electronics...you name it." But that was only AFTER you installed the Luxman as was attempting to resolve the issue by other means.

Source changes, cable changes, equipment isolation gear, amplifier changes, none of those should make that drastic of a degrade in sound quality.

Whether your speakers are incompatible with the amp or there's something wrong with the amp, the only answer to your original question is that it is the AMP.


And just curious, why does it sound like you have distaste against Naim now? At least you were getting good sound with that gear.

Yes, the questions about speaker phase were interesting but definitely not a factor in my situation. As for Naim, I could've lived with their sound on the Sopra 1s if they could figure out how to engineer their products correctly. There was just too many problems, idiosyncrasies, irregularities, anomalies and general irritants with Naim going from the Supernait 2 to the Supernait 3 to the 282, 250, HCDR using ND5XS2, nDAC and XPS as sources over a period of 8 years or so. Sound was OK but the company recently lost their way, lost the plot, lost Marketing directors, engineers, went through 3 managing directors and then decided to price their stuff at stoopid silly prices. The Luxman was meant to be a "forever amplifier" so I could just listen to music instead of mucking about with equipment all the time.

The crime of it all was that I did a 3 day in-home, in-system demo of the 590 before buying it. The new model was fine for about 6 months, then lo and behold it began to produce a prodigious amount of bass for literally no known reason. When I say I have checked, tested and trialed every known variable known to human kind, I mean it. That includes "phase polarity" and other unrelated topics...
Anyway, it's back to the drawing board. The point of my post was to seek advice on which to ditch, speakers or amp, because taken alone neither are known as shabby, sub-standard units. Appreciated your pertinent comments.
Thanks.

Originally Posted by Mikado463

27 posts and the 'ONLY' thing that has changed is amplification.......... and we're still talking about this ?????????

Audiophiles, for Gods sakes what a goofy bunch !!!!


myself included .........

It could've been 900 posts. I was unaware that seeking advice on which set of equipment to keep and which to sell had an imposed number of maximum posts...

Originally Posted by jmusica

I don’t get all the hand wringing. You changed the amp, you don’t like the way things sound. But did before you changed the amp, to a degree. You were seeking better. This amp, with current speakers, in the room you have, didn’t give you what you want.

Don’t be distracted by cables and footers and such - those can be marginal improvements, but the foundation has to be in your sweet spot first.

You have three choices. Keep amp rolling, start rolling speakers, or start swapping both. I’ve been through all those cycles; none are objectively wrong - just about budget, and fun, and access, and intuition. And now I have the system I always wanted.

Yes, thanks. Fully agree, the question I seek to answer is which unit would have more value and logic to keep in the system. I am getting off the neurotic constant upgrade train with the strange idea of just listening to music as the primary objective. Without a doubt both speakers and amp are very nice products, they just don't like each other very much...Thanks.

Originally Posted by David60

Yes, thanks. Fully agree, the question I seek to answer is which unit would have more value and logic to keep in the system. I am getting off the neurotic constant upgrade train with the strange idea of just listening to music as the primary objective. Without a doubt both speakers and amp are very nice products, they just don't like each other very much...Thanks.

Good luck with that. You asked for opinions and people on AS gave you plenty of them, but apparently those opinions didn't give you any clarity. This was your reply to me when I asked how a pair of speakers with 6 1/2" drivers could cause your bass boom:

"No, no sub at all. Believe me, I don't understand either. Naim, Musical Fidelity and Jadis in same system/situation never did this. It can only be the Luxman..."

Your response stated that it had to be the Luxman that was causing the issue. Other people have told you the same. Sell the Luxman and move on.

After reading through these posts, it seems to me you should try the following:

— Measure your low end response at current LP, then move the LP forward and back to see and hear the effect. Perhaps totally reset your speaker positions in the room after that. These are potentially the cheapest improvements (as Mike has suggested earlier).
— Find some sort of demo integrated with more power to try and isolate of the Luxman is the issue. If no improvement; then consider demo speakers.
— Lastly, if you are digital guy, try DSP.

David60, on post 33 you say the problem occured after 6 months of ownership and the amp & speaker combo sounded good during the demo period. Since the bass became mushy over a period of time and you didn't return it for service I think what you really want to know is if your specific model Luxman is known to change dramatically during the break-in period? Definitely a debated topic if break in is marketing or real and if real how many hours is realistic? Why weren't you warned. You posted early that you'd get the luxman checked out and if it sounded like your forever amp previously than the unit is likely damaged.