Sound

Welcome aboard David.

My first thought regarding your questions is that, obviously, in addition to the unique way you hear, everything in your system contributes the aural presentation you are experiencing. Focusing more on the part of the signal chain you emphasize, the speaker placement, by your description ("the music is as if I am wearing huge headphones") it seems as though the speaker placement is intended to provide a somewhat near field listening experience. Are the speakers toed-in significantly?

One of the things I enjoy about this hobby is the ability to alter the presentation of the music by manipulating the speaker locations. Have fun finding the speaker position you prefer (which you may already have) and enjoy the music.

I've never experienced sound from speakers inside my head.

As stated in the prior post your speakers and gear have a lot to do with your sound stage and how it's presented. I have horn speakers and the dealer set them up with toe in, the horns pointed at my ears. I don't sit in an equal triangle, I prefer back further from the speakers.

I noticed my system didn't seem as open or expanded as some of my friends. I experimented with positioning and found the sound stage opened up with less toe in.

Your sound stage should seem in front of you and it should sound as if your speakers disappear. Meaning you hear the performance but it's not localized to where the speaker is at. This is where your gear plays a part some help the speakers disappear better and some gear has a more out front presentation where other may present more back from you. It is normal for your sound stage to expand beyond your speakers.

Much of it depends on what you like. You are the one who has to enjoy your sound.

Another thought, you could also be hearing some reflections. Have you experimented with room treatments?

Welcome to AS

Suggestion: Buy Jim Smith's book "Get Better Sound."

GSOphile said:

Suggestion: Buy Jim Smith's book "Get Better Sound."

Click to expand...

+1

Hello mxk116 and Mr Peabody
Thanks for your replies. You've confirmed what I suspected.
Every speaker setup diagram I've seen has the speakers at 60 deg with the listener inside the apex, which is how I currently have my speakers. I did have them pointing straight after doubts about the headphone effect but a friend who built his own horn speakers, preamp and amp advised I should have them toed in and, thinking that such is the sound I should be hearing, I went back to the equilateral setup.
I will now, with joy, mess about with widening the toe in.
With regard to acoustics in my living room, it is L shaped, with the R speaker at the open side and the L with a wall to it's L.
Our walls are thickly curtained, have bookshelves and cabinets and so forth, so not much in the way of clear wall for straightforward deflections, including the rear wall. Floor is carpeted over a concrete slab.
Our equpment is a 2xperience dc t/t with 9" project carbon fibre evolution arm and atm a 2m bronze cart. Amp is a Classé CA-2100. Phono pre is a Consonance Ref 40. Pre is a Schitt Saga S run in passive mode. The Schiit was bought while my Hafler DH 110 is in for a new pot and loss of R channel for two of the inputs.
My speakers are Ascension Artisans with 12" woofers 200 rms @6 ohms and 90dB efficiency. These were one-offs built by Edward at Adelaide Speaker Company. No need for a sub! Beautiful sound.
DVD/CD is a NAD T 550.
I have a Ortofon Cadenza Bronze but am awaiting a counterweight for it. Martini at Klapp Audio has spent a month trying to track one down (Project seems to not have users of older arms and t/ts in mind). Fortunately, he assures me, one has been located and I'll hopefully have it within the next fortnight.
This is why I have asked my question. I want to know that I have my speakers feeding my aural senses correctly so I will better appreciate the benefit of the Cadenza.
And I replaced the rs power supply for the t/t with the 'High Power It' power supply. What an astonishing difference that has made! The original was noisy and caused a rumble that has now vanished.
I think our equipment is reasonable. The amp is 21.5kg of wonder. Stable and clean. The reviews on it are worth a read.
Thx again for taking the time to reply.
And thanks for the book suggestion Paul

And GSOphile. I missed your message.

Seems you are getting good bass from what you say. I'd expect a suck out on the right being next to open way. I'm not an expert, I try to make my room symmetrical. You have a nice set up

Hi Mr Peabody
Yes no doubt re R speaker although I have a partial wall of lps about 800 mm high which has an impact. The speakers disappear and the image is centred so it doesn't seem to be an issue.
I shall continue on my quest for speaker placement. I can't utilise the thirds rule due to not being allowed to move the couch back from 3200 mm from the wall behind the speakers. The speakers at 1700 mm from the couch is way too close.
Anyway, cheers and haveagoodweekend.

Can you post a picture of your room and current setup?

Hi Brad,

I will when I've made some changes, i e. moving the equipment from between the speakers so long as it passes you know who.

cheers and thx for taking an interest.
David

GSOphile said:

Suggestion: Buy Jim Smith's book "Get Better Sound."

Click to expand...

Less costly perhaps, buy new speakers!

Dav1d said:

At a concert it's all out front (outdoor concert).
It isn't like headphones. How can an orchestra be laid out across my lounge room if some of it is floating in my head?
The headphone effect is really cool and what I aim for
when tweaking my floorstanders.

Click to expand...

I've snipped a couple of your sentences only

I wonder if you are listening as you should.

You mention outdoor concerts but what you listen to at home will normally have been recoded in a concert hall or studio.

Sitting at the apex of your triangle with speakers in front of you, you should be hearing what you would if you had first-class seats at the concert hall with the orchestra or band extending to roughly the same angle as that between you and your speakers. There will also be sound reflected from the venue walls at the concert hall as there will be from the walls in your room, though these will have a slightly different character.

The most important job you have to do accurately is to find the optimum placement of your speakers (in relation to your listening position and walls around them) and toe-in (very important to get right) and maybe tilt.

With these tasks done you should have much better / more realistic sound, but don't expect an "outdoor" experience because outdoors there are no walls to reflect sound from and you are likely not to be hearing real instruments or voices direct, but a loudspeaker system!

If you are still dissatisfied, then there are more basic problems that may need addressing. Do you have the right TYPE of speaker for your listening room and preferred music style? Does your amp match well with your speakers? Get these wrong and your system will never offer the excitement factor you experience at a live venue.

Any further information about your room, system and preferred music may help.

Hello all and sundry
Brad I'll post pics tomorrow.
WAF was positive regarding moving the eqipment.
Hear here I described my equipment in the 10 March @ 1132 post:
Our equpment is a 2xperience dc t/t with 9" project carbon fibre evolution arm and atm a 2m bronze cart. Amp is a Classé CA-2100. Phono pre is a Consonance Ref 40. Pre is a Schitt Saga S run in passive mode. The Schiit was bought while my Hafler DH 110 is in for a new pot and loss of R channel for two of the inputs.
My speakers are Ascension Artisans with 12" woofers 200 rms @6 ohms and 90dB efficiency. These were one-offs built by Edward at Adelaide Speaker Company. No need for a sub! Beautiful sound.
DVD/CD is a NAD T 550.
I have a Ortofon Cadenza Bronze but am awaiting a counterweight for it.
I also hace an LP12 (Valhalla vintage) but that is in need of some work. The power supply is shot for starters. That project will have to wait.
After having moved the equipment from between the speakers I had hoped to do some listening experiments today but I have the worst case of tinnitus I've ever had. I put it down to poor sleep following the flu vac I had in the afternoon.
As the pics Brad asked for will show, I am stymied by an L shaped lounge room.
Thx re advice on concert sound v recording studio sound.
I have no doubts about the quality of my speakers.
My music taste is essentially 'rock' music from the 70s (the majority of my records were bought then). From Alan Parsons to Yes, from the Beatles to Carole King, from Deep Purple (early) to Chuck Berry. I love the opening to Hot August Night etc and so on. I have a dozen or so 'classical music' albums that I hope the Cadenza Bronze will illuminate better han the 2m Bronze. My taste is essentially 'if it's good I'll listen to it'. I hate sceaming singing and don't own Hammond a-go-go. And not a big fan of US rock.
Also enjoy Jars of Clay , Third Day and Mercy Me.
I am thinking I'll end up with a speaker position for listening and one for the all important WAF .
Hopefully my tinnitus will dim significantly with a good rest and no loud dog barks witin a metre.
I appreciate all the input.

"My speakers are Ascension Artisans with 12" woofers 200 rms @6 ohms and 90dB efficiency. These were one-offs built by Edward at Adelaide Speaker Company. No need for a sub! Beautiful sound."

That's what I like to see - big speakers with grown-up woofers! Why are so many modern speakers crippled by inadequate bass capability? It often means having to add subs, usually of a different brand and all the resultant extra setting-up problems, that in turn encourages "room correction" DSP to be resorted to.

Room correction is a misnomer - it never corrects the room but messes with the nice flat signal that an expensive amplifier is designed to deliver, so the speakers receive a non-flat input signal. This may give the impression that speakers are better than they are, but it's surely not the way to get a truly excellent sound. Good, carefully-chosen speakers in a sensibly furnished (and possibly treated) room is the better approach. In my view anyway!

Hello folks
Attached are 3 shots of our L shaped room Brad.
Cluttered? Yep.
Speaker position has not yet been decided.
The main 'room' is about 3440 x 5960 discounting the entry which is 1m deep and 1150mm wide (at the left in the top image).
The opening into the short leg is 2.9m and that 'room' is 2.9m deep
Tinnitus has vanished so I'll get on with some listening. Probably Steely Dan.
Cheers

Hear here, maybe the reason for small woofers is the sub sales.

Dav1d said:

Hear here, maybe the reason for small woofers is the sub sales.

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Yep! It's easier for "bread and butter" dealers to stock and sell skinny speakers with 6 or 7" bass drivers that buyers hope will provide good bass. A couple of months later, they return to the dealer who sells them a sub or two. 2 months after that, they complain about the mixed-up sound from their over-complex system, so the dealer suggests a new amp with "room correction" DSP to sort it all out. Not the way to buy hi-fi!

Better to buy the right speaker in the first place from a dealer who knows his stuff and stocks "proper" full-range speakers. These may cost more initially, but will reward the buyer by delivering better sound from the start and likely to be cost-effective over the longer term.

We bought these speakers last year and played records every night till midnight for weeks. Every record was 'heard' for the first time. They replaced Acoustic Research's AR12s and they're no slouch.
Back then I had a Cambridge Topaz SR 10 amp.
Sadly it kept dropping a channel so we had to find another amp.

hello folks
Can probably bring this to a close.
My question regarding sound, essentially should I be hearing as if wearing huge headphones, which I can easily achieve with toe in, has been answered. With no toe in of my speakers I don't have the headphone effect. I'll keep them that way.
cheers and thanks for taking the time to discuss
I think that I can now put in a link to the speakers I use?
Artisan Reference Series
David