Thread: So, whats my price?

Complicated question. For anonymous Internet transactions, service can affect the price. No returns translates to a much bigger discount than no questions asked returns. So far, I have been an Internet shopper.

For the internet, where I initiate the purchase, no demonstration, etc. I just ask whether there is a discount (for a decent sized purchase, not a $30 belt). For the big two in the adjoining midwest states starting with I, the discounts without bargaining other than asking, have been typically more than their frequent 10% off sales for music.

For the past five years, most of my purchases have been through my local consultant, sort of a bricks and mortar dealer, but much more. We talk at length about what I want to accomplish so he understands what is going on. He has visited my home many times to hear my system as it has evolved and even set up complex shootouts with different equipment and experts running the shootout - at his expense - so that I could hear what worked best. When that turned out to be a combination of professional software and hardware and an unobtainable piece of equipment (you can guess what it was from my signature list), he found it for me, and even negotiated with the software manufacturer for a highly discounted license, since I wasn't using it in a standard professional mode. He has found other consultants who have taught me how to use complex equipment and software and even build custom switching equipment, when none was available commercially. For those, he has taken no fee or commission from the other consultants. I thank him and refer other customers to him, but also reward him when I wanted to buy some relatively expensive equipment (the Audio Desk Vinyl Cleaner and AK120) by paying retail and local sales tax (helping the state but not him) where I could have saved a few hundred going to an internet dealer. He is also very free with loaning me equipment to test out or even to use for an extended time. I currently have some relatively expensive cables that I have borrowed from him for about three years, that he isn't using. Eventually I will either buy them from him at a big discount or return them if I find something better at a similar price point. He has also loaned me computers for several months to test out different software.

In the end, my enjoyment of music and my system has increased much more than the savings I would have had.

Larry

Originally Posted by puroagave

its an uncomfortable question for a lot of people but its asked over and over and more relevant today than ever. In exchange for being a loyal customer how much discount on new gear, percentage-wise, do you expect from a B&M dealer? internet dealer?

I think there are far too many variables. It's no different than shopping for any other commodity. You do your due diligence and factor in all variables, including price, customer service, after sale service and more and pull the trigger.

Markup on products varies greatly - from product type to product brand, so this makes any hard and fast rules difficult to develop.

Most importantly, what's the value you place on a long lasting relationship with a dealer who really has your best interests at heart? Is it really worth beating him up for that $50 coupon for a copy of JRiver when you know (or should know) that there WILL be help you need in the future and products he/she carries that you may want to buy? Is that $50 coupon really the hill you want to die on (or your relationship to die on?)



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Originally Posted by Mike

Most importantly, what's the value you place on a long lasting relationship with a dealer who really has your best interests at heart?

Pretty much zero for me. I understand that there are plenty of audiophiles that'll enjoy advice and hand holding, but I don't want or need that. I want and expect zero service. I just want my order taken and the product shipped quickly and safely. I don't return gear. If I don't like it, that's on me. I sell it myself. The only service I would expect is the same as I would expect from an online dealer of any kind, if the product arrives damaged or defective that's their problem to resolve. Anything else is on me. For this order taking service I should pay the dealer a fee. That fee should be reasonable. I'd say 10% of the full retail price should be the most I should be charged for simply taking my order. Even less on a high dollar item.

The manufacturers should figure this out and start catering to all of us that want to buy this way. Paying a 40% or 50% markup when ordering online is outrageous.

To the OP, if you are a regular customer to a B&M store I don't think more than 15% discount should be expected. And that's for a regular customer. A new customer should pay full retail price. That's what is necessary to keep those stores in business. If you are buying on the Internet and require no service pre or post sale, then 25% off at the conservative end.

Originally Posted by puroagave

I'm referring to major purchases that have a very similar mark-up (amps. speakers, sources) compared to cables and accessory doodads. I'm seeing 20% off list prices across the board with B&M stores and 25% off with internet dealers.

I see a lot of posters on different 'boards that are buying brand new and flipping within a year or two (sometimes within a few months) are you guys connected somehow (industry accommodation) or are really taking the hit on resale that I think you are

A small Internet dealer that deals out of his home and holds no inventory has almost zero overhead. A dealer like that can offer substantially more than 25% off and still make money. Some products have 60% or more markup.

I buy local (within 100 miles) when I can and the reason I buy local is I have gained some nice friendships with the dealers and the people that work in these stores in other activities besides audio. Discounts, I never asked for one, but the dealer always provided me with a 10% - 25% discount depending on the item and even more if that item has been residing in his store for a long periond of time. I figure they need to make some profit to keep the lights on not to mention I get to take the item home and audition it in my home. If I don't like it, I can return the item after a few weeks. I don't mind paying for customer service, it's better than dealing with some person 3000 plus miles away named Fritz who could careless who you are, he's already got your money.

A person buying anything be it a car, boat, bike, audio equipment to camera equipment needs to do their homework. Paying MSRP is nuts. Like Mike noted above

You do your due diligence and factor in all variables, including price, customer service, after sale service and more and pull the trigger.

After all, nobody is forcing us to buy anything.

Fritz is cheaper.

Originally Posted by puroagave

I'm referring to major purchases that have a very similar mark-up (amps. speakers, sources) compared to cables and accessory doodads. I'm seeing 20% off list prices across the board with B&M stores and 25% off with internet dealers.

I see a lot of posters on different 'boards that are buying brand new and flipping within a year or two (sometimes within a few months) are you guys connected somehow (industry accommodation) or are really taking the hit on resale that I think you are

I hope the flippers are buying at a price which is low enough that they can resell and recapture most all of their money back. Otherwise, they have to have very deep pockets or a bad retirement plan.

Internet 30% or more. A lot of times they are happy to just move product and make it up on the next guy. They also tell the next customer that your purchase was a floor model or opened box. Or even a retun order from a big install. It just gives them a road to ship new products out cheap.

Originally Posted by KINGSRULE

Maybe we could start a thread recommending "cooperative dealers", whether they be B&M or web stores.....

Unfortunately we cannot do that because of the totally screwed up dynamics between the distributors, dealers, and customers. There are many dealers making special deals with customers, but the distributors in most cases do not officially condone this behavior. Some distributors threaten to revoke dealerships on these grounds. So we live in a world where most dealers must discount to stay in business, but they must hide how,they truly operate from the distributors. So the whole thing has to be done as clandestine back door deals. It's ridiculous, but that is the reality.

Think of it like the relationship you would have with a pot dealer.

Originally Posted by KINGSRULE

Maybe we could start a thread recommending "cooperative dealers", whether they be B&M or web stores.....

I think we need a list of Audiogon idiots not to buy from or sell to as well.


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Originally Posted by Mike

I think we need a list of Audiogon idiots not to buy from or sell to as well.


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I second that. Like the guy I sold Krell monos to that wanted a refund because I didnt include the original manual and would not accept a printed copy or a downloaded PDF. For an amp!!! Like you even need a manual. There's one button. Do you need a manual for a light switch too?

I sold my Luxman preamp to a guy for $3000 (it retails for $9000) a while back. He got a steal. The preamp was mint. He had it for two weeks and asked for his money back because he didn't like the sound anymore and wanted to try something else. I told him sorry, you bought it, you own it.

He sent me back a note (via audiogon) that he was going to pray to the gods of ill will and they would reign a lifetime of bad luck down on me.

I filed a complaint to Audiogon and they didn't give a heck.

I will say, of all the gear I've sold or bought (and there has been a lot), rarely do I have an issue. Usually my issues are with the idiot shipping companies. UPS, Fedex, DHL, they all suck.

Audiogon is not an audition service. What a tool. Glad this is the exception

Nick

So people are so clueless they expect the same service when buying from a private individual on ebay or audiogon that they would receive if they bought from a giant retailer. They are just that clueless.

Originally Posted by jaxwired

I second that. Like the guy I sold Krell monos to that wanted a refund because I didnt include the original manual and would not accept a printed copy or a downloaded PDF. For an amp!!! Like you even need a manual. There's one button. Do you need a manual for a light switch too?

Your guy was looking for an excuse to back out of the deal. It had nothing to do with the manual.

Originally Posted by Mike

I sold my Luxman preamp to a guy for $3000 (it retails for $9000) a while back. He got a steal. The preamp was mint. He had it for two weeks and asked for his money back because he didn't like the sound anymore and wanted to try something else. I told him sorry, you bought it, you own it.

He sent me back a note (via audiogon) that he was going to pray to the gods of ill will and they would reign a lifetime of bad luck down on me.

I filed a complaint to Audiogon and they didn't give a heck.

I will say, of all the gear I've sold or bought (and there has been a lot), rarely do I have an issue. Usually my issues are with the idiot shipping companies. UPS, Fedex, DHL, they all suck.

He wanted to flip gear using your money. You should have told him you went to NO and bought a voodoo doll and you have his name on in it and if he feels any sharp stabbing pains in his tightwad ass, he will know what is causing them.

Originally Posted by mep

Your guy was looking for an excuse to back out of the deal. It had nothing to do with the manual.

i agree and I suggested that to him and he just screamed louder about how very important the original manual was to him. I ended up contacting krell and explaining the situation to them and they informed me they don't even ship that model with a full manual just a one page setup guide and that they provide the url of the PDF for people that want a full manual. I ended up telling the guy I did in fact obtain the original manual and it was on its way to him and I just went to kinkos and had them print the PDF in manual form in color on high end stock. Cost me like $30. It looked better than any actual manual I've ever received with a high end amp.

Originally Posted by jaxwired

i agree and I suggested that to him and he just screamed louder about how very important the original manual was to him. I ended up contacting krell and explaining the situation to them and they informed me they don't even ship that model with a full manual just a one page setup guide and that they provide the url of the PDF for people that want a full manual. I ended up telling the guy I did in fact obtain the original manual and it was on its way to him and I just went to kinkos and had them print the PDF in manual form in color on high end stock. Cost me like $30. It looked better than any actual manual I've ever received with a high end amp.

You should have seen the manual that came with the original ARC D-76 amp. That was the finest owner's manual I have ever seen and it embarrasses many military tech manuals.

Originally Posted by Mike

I sold my Luxman preamp to a guy for $3000 (it retails for $9000) a while back. He got a steal. The preamp was mint. He had it for two weeks and asked for his money back because he didn't like the sound anymore and wanted to try something else. I told him sorry, you bought it, you own it.

He sent me back a note (via audiogon) that he was going to pray to the gods of ill will and they would reign a lifetime of bad luck down on me.

I filed a complaint to Audiogon and they didn't give a heck.

I will say, of all the gear I've sold or bought (and there has been a lot), rarely do I have an issue. Usually my issues are with the idiot shipping companies. UPS, Fedex, DHL, they all suck.

Let's not get started on Audiogon. They don't give a crap about their customers. They let unsavory people on the site, ban them but you are shit out of luck if you order anything from these characters?

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

Let's not get started on Audiogon. They don't give a crap about their customers. They let unsavory people on the site, ban them but you are shit out of luck if you order anything from these characters?

I have gotten money back from an idiot on Audiogon before, but it's a long, drawn out process that's as painful as a root canal with no anesthetic. Same for getting paid for shipping damages from UPS or FedEx.

Originally Posted by Zero

You should expect to pay MSRP, but not be afraid to barter for a better situation.

No you shouldn't. You should always expect and ask for a discount.