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Thread: Roon problems

  1. #51
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    Re: Roon problems

    Great question. From my testing (Auralic, Aurender, Innuos, Melco, Roon, etc.) I have found, hands down, Aurender SOUNDS the best. Roon’s interface is second to none. It’s sexy and has the best search feature hands down. I love the stability of usability/functionality of the Lumin app. The one that surprised me was the Melco. No, I don’t sell Melco, but I was damn impressed with their app and sound. I have not tried the new Auralic stuff (the stuff just announced).

    But for me, the Aurender eco-system (ACS, W20SE, A30, N10, etc) really delivers the goods. The app has never crashed on me either! It’s quite stable. Sonically, I just haven’t found anything better. But it doesn’t do Roon and that’s the rub for some folks. That’s why the Lumin U1 and U1 mini is so hot right now. If someone says “I don’t give a sh!t about Roon, then we sell them either the Lumin U1/U1 mini with the excellent free Lumin app or an Aurender if they want internal storage.


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  2. #52
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    Re: Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Swisstrips View Post
    Right, but its not for everyone obviously and requires a bit more tech savy person I think and some just want plug n play. Again, there is no right or wrong - you find something that works for your environment and that you like.
    Totally agree, but something like Roon by itself is much more plug and play. Any software takes a bit of configuration and setup patience of course . I found that the sound performance from Roon by itself was very close but HQPlayer was slightly better. I guess audiophiles will go to extremes for every little tad of improvements they can get. I would be more interested in comparisons of pure software applications since items such as Sooloos and others previously mentioned in this thread are both software and hardware. If I remember correct the guys who started Roon had previously developed the Sooloos system for Meridian.
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

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  3. #53
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    Re: Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Great question. From my testing (Auralic, Aurender, Innuos, Melco, Roon, etc.) I have found, hands down, Aurender SOUNDS the best. Roon’s interface is second to none. It’s sexy and has the best search feature hands down. I love the stability of usability/functionality of the Lumin app. The one that surprised me was the Melco. No, I don’t sell Melco, but I was damn impressed with their app and sound. I have not tried the new Auralic stuff (the stuff just announced).But for me, the Aurender eco-system (ACS, W20SE, A30, N10, etc) really delivers the goods. The app has never crashed on me either! It’s quite stable. Sonically, I just haven’t found anything better. But it doesn’t do Roon and that’s the rub for some folks. That’s why the Lumin U1 and U1 mini is so hot right now. If someone says “I don’t give a sh!t about Roon, then we sell them either the Lumin U1/U1 mini with the excellent free Lumin app or an Aurender if they want internal storage.
    Have you compared the Aurender to HQPlayer? Because if HQPlayer sounds as good or better, then when combined with Roon (which is baked into Roon) you get the best of both worlds. Also the Aurender is both software and hardware device, correct? So it can't be used on other devices or generic computers, correct?
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

    “One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrong”
    "You can't use reason to convince anyone out of an argument that they didn't use reason to get into"
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  4. #54
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    Re: Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    Have you compared the Aurender to HQPlayer? Because if HQPlayer sounds as good or better, then when combined with Roon (which is baked into Roon) you get the best of both worlds. Also the Aurender is both software and hardware device, correct? So it can't be used on other devices or generic computers, correct?
    Correct. It’s an ecosystem.


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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

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  5. #55
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    Re: Roon problems

    would be interested to hear your thoughts on the observed SQ difference between aurender conductor player and roon being attributable to the hardware rather than the software?

    the $22k aurender w20se has elaborate (exquisite?) power and isolation -- and, i assume some of that to some degree is present in other models down the the chain such as the $8k n10. same for lumin.

    the roon nucleus+ is literally the guts of a $575 (retail) intel nuc put inside a custom fanless case -- as stated by roon, nothing audiophile about this hardware.

    absolutely no doubt in my mind that audio transports such as the aurender, lumin, etc. will sound better than a roon nucleus, regardless of software.

    i assume there is some real difference in how the competing software handles things like up-sampling, format conversion, etc. however, i would expect the results of such differences to be more "flavor" subject to individual tastes than to be SQ in the strict sense.

    the real test would be to run the various player software on the same equipment. unfortunately, the proprietary nature of the various manufacturer's software make this impossible.
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  6. #56
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    Re: Roon problems

    True true... I would be willing to put my system, my custom computer running Roon and HQPlayer up against the Aurender. Through my T+A DAC running at DSD512 (not sure what the Aurender can do), I believe it could compete... but I am guessing this direct comparison will never happen ...
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

    “One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrong”
    "You can't use reason to convince anyone out of an argument that they didn't use reason to get into"
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  7. #57
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    Re: Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    True true... I would be willing to put my system, my custom computer running Roon and HQPlayer up against the Aurender. Through my T+A DAC running at DSD512 (not sure what the Aurender can do), I believe it could compete... but I am guessing this direct comparison will never happen ...
    I’d bet on the Aurender all day long on that one.


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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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  8. #58
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    Re: Roon problems

    What resolution does the Aurender do? Does it do DSD upsampling? Just curious.... if all else is equivalent as in same system, same capable DAC (that can handle DSD512), the best my server can do, upsampling running Roon and HQPlayer... not sure what the best the Aurender can do but that would be a fair comparison; best each can do. I have a feeling you might be surprised .... I am guessing the differences would be splitting hairs .

    Would be fun to run some real comparisons though.
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

    “One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrong”
    "You can't use reason to convince anyone out of an argument that they didn't use reason to get into"
    ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

  9. #59
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    Re: Roon problems

    Therein lies the rub - it really is a flavor for lack of a better term. Some want plug n play and a closed ecosystem where everything is basically laid out to use "x y z". There is no fussing around (generally speaking) with a multitude of options, components etc.. Others chose an open type of system where you sort of compile your equiv of a closed system. You chose your LPS, storage, networking etc..

    Neither is better than the other and they all have pros and cons to varying degrees depending on your environment, skill set, goals etc.. IMHO there really no best solution and sort of pointless to even go down that road. There certainly is no "winner" in anything audio as its not a competition. One chooses a solution, either likes it or doesn't and if not, moves on to something else until it fits within ones environment / end goal.

  10. #60
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    Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by aKnyght View Post
    would be interested to hear your thoughts on the observed SQ difference between aurender conductor player and roon being attributable to the hardware rather than the software?

    the $22k aurender w20se has elaborate (exquisite?) power and isolation -- and, i assume some of that to some degree is present in other models down the the chain such as the $8k n10. same for lumin.

    the roon nucleus+ is literally the guts of a $575 (retail) intel nuc put inside a custom fanless case -- as stated by roon, nothing audiophile about this hardware.

    absolutely no doubt in my mind that audio transports such as the aurender, lumin, etc. will sound better than a roon nucleus, regardless of software.

    i assume there is some real difference in how the competing software handles things like up-sampling, format conversion, etc. however, i would expect the results of such differences to be more "flavor" subject to individual tastes than to be SQ in the strict sense.

    the real test would be to run the various player software on the same equipment. unfortunately, the proprietary nature of the various manufacturer's software make this impossible.
    While there’s more on the hardware side, one note is Aurenders OCXO clock, kept at constant temperature


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  11. #61
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    Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by aKnyght View Post
    would be interested to hear your thoughts on the observed SQ difference between aurender conductor player and roon being attributable to the hardware rather than the software?

    the $22k aurender w20se has elaborate (exquisite?) power and isolation -- and, i assume some of that to some degree is present in other models down the the chain such as the $8k n10. same for lumin.

    the roon nucleus+ is literally the guts of a $575 (retail) intel nuc put inside a custom fanless case -- as stated by roon, nothing audiophile about this hardware.

    absolutely no doubt in my mind that audio transports such as the aurender, lumin, etc. will sound better than a roon nucleus, regardless of software.

    i assume there is some real difference in how the competing software handles things like up-sampling, format conversion, etc. however, i would expect the results of such differences to be more "flavor" subject to individual tastes than to be SQ in the strict sense.

    the real test would be to run the various player software on the same equipment. unfortunately, the proprietary nature of the various manufacturer's software make this impossible.
    When I talk to the folks at Aurender, they are constantly saying “sound first”. Their app is designed with “sound first” as the number one goal.

    Not to put too fine a point on things, but I find it incredible that some audiophiles will fuss about cable lifters, fuses and rubidium wall outlets, but the sound of Roon is “good enough”.

    You guys will see, one day, those obsessed with sound first, will move away from Roon and at the same time, Roon will move further away from “sound first” by implementing home automation features. I could be wrong and I’m not advocating it, because I indeed sell a lot of “Roon only” devices. But I truly feel this will be the case...one day...and perhaps, one day soon.
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    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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  12. #62
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    Re: Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    When I talk to the folks at Aurender, they are constantly saying “sound first”. Their app is designed with “sound first” as the number one goal.

    Not to put too fine a point on things, but I find it incredible that some audiophiles will fuss about cable lifters, fuses and rubidium wall outlets, but the sound of Roon is “good enough”.

    You guys will see, one day, those obsessed with sound first, will move away from Roon and at the same time, Roon will move further away from “sound first” by implementing home automation features. I could be wrong and I’m not advocating it, because I indeed sell a lot of “Roon only” devices. But I truly feel this will be the case...one day...and perhaps, one day soon.
    great background info on the aurender app. and, a great point to keep in mind with the (likely) future path of roon.

    just out of curiosity, should roon move away from the "sound first" by adding more and more functionality not really necessary for the single-system, 2-channel audiophile, do you think the consequence will be an increasingly noisy digital signal or a (more) buggy user experience? probably both, right?

    noise can be effectively filtered from the signal. a buggy UX is another matter.

    btw: huge fan of aurender. just wish they would offer SSDs on more of their models -- even better would be m.2 NVMe drives.
    viking acoustics berlin r mk2 | air tight atc-5 + atm-300r | clearaudio concept + virtuoso v2 MM | t+a dac8 dsd + kanjiroba diy transport + roon rock
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  13. #63
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    Re: Roon problems

    Medium sized music library + Qobuz here. I bought Roon lifetime from the first week. Bricasti M12 has worked well from the day I got it.

    wired network works best (just the iPad is wireless)
    I ditched Win10pro on a fanless i7 NUC to ROCK, and have the files on USB drive
    etherRegen connected to network via optical, B side straight to Bricasti, with the NUC on A side
    I have Roon re-sample all to DSD128 (max for M12)

    I think it’s great, but, when it gets to the point of adding home automation, I probably will look elsewhere too.
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  14. #64
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    Re: Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by aKnyght View Post
    great background info on the aurender app. and, a great point to keep in mind with the (likely) future path of roon.

    just out of curiosity, should roon move away from the "sound first" by adding more and more functionality not really necessary for the single-system, 2-channel audiophile, do you think the consequence will be an increasingly noisy digital signal or a (more) buggy user experience? probably both, right?

    noise can be effectively filtered from the signal. a buggy UX is another matter.

    btw: huge fan of aurender. just wish they would offer SSDs on more of their models -- even better would be m.2 NVMe drives.
    The storage is very important for over all performance in my view. None of my systems, computers, server, controller, etc., use anything but M.2 and SSDs. Rotating drives are noisy, have vibration, prone to generating heat, prone to fragmentation, and failures. They are also prone to misreads of the files because keeping 100% alignment of drive heads on a drive spinning at 7200 or 10,000 RPMs and reading billions of bits of digital information simply is unrealistic. All of which can and does interfere with sound performance.

    Even in my music server PC I have 2x one terabyte M.2 drives for running the software (Windows, Roon, HQPlayer) and storage of DSD files. I also have 2x 500 GB SSDs for storage of PCM files.

    Any system, no matter what you choose that is not incorporating SSD and/or M.2 drives is a huge compromise.

    Don't even get me started about storing all your music on a NAS and streaming it across a network or even worse WiFi. Streaming services as such are huge compromises. It only stands to reason. The files themselves are stored on some other computer, probably thousands of miles away. Expecting them to get to you unaffected is unreasonable and unrealistic.
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  15. #65
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    Re: Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    Don't even get me started about storing all your music on a NAS and streaming it across a network or even worse WiFi. Streaming services as such are huge compromises. It only stands to reason. The files themselves are stored on some other computer, probably thousands of miles away. Expecting them to get to you unaffected is unreasonable and unrealistic.
    Disagree. (Other than that WiFi can indeed be problematic.)

    Roon also advocates a streaming model where the Roon Core sends music data via RAAT network protocol to Roon Ready endpoints.
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  16. #66
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    Re: Roon problems

    Just because a network data method is supported does not mean it performs as well. Sending data across any network is not as good as having it stored locally. Any data traveling across extra, extended wires can and does have packet losses (error correction routines) and certainly is much slower than having it stored locally. All things that infringe on data transmission and delivery can and do influence digital music.
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

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  17. #67
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    Re: Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    Just because a network data method is supported does not mean it performs as well. Sending data across any network is not as good as having it stored locally. Any data traveling across extra, extended wires can and does have packet losses (error correction routines) and certainly is much slower than having it stored locally. All things that infringe on data transmission and delivery can and do influence digital music.
    Pretty much what you are saying is totally depending on the cable company ( internet provider) one has and their communication structure. Having been in the business not a cable provider, but telecommunications, the amount of data failures over the network is greater than people realize and then you have the cable companies and their hap hazard maintenance structure, limiting speeds on a whim, maintenance throughout the day is a common occurrence. So people that experience drops out, I would first look at my local providing network before jumping on a service provider, QoBUZ, Tidal or their equipment, sure they have server issues, but most of the time your network ( cable provider) could be at fault. Data in is only as good as the total network. Pretty much the same of power, dirty power in, equals poor results.
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    Re: Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by CPP View Post
    Pretty much what you are saying is totally depending on the cable company ( internet provider) one has and their communication structure. Having been in the business not a cable provider, but telecommunications, the amount of data failures over the network is greater than people realize and then you have the cable companies and their hap hazard maintenance structure, limiting speeds on a whim, maintenance throughout the day is a common occurrence. So people that experience drops out, I would first look at my local providing network before jumping on a service provider, QoBUZ, Tidal or their equipment, sure they have server issues, but most of the time your network ( cable provider) could be at fault. Data in is only as good as the total network. Pretty much the same of power, dirty power in, equals poor results.
    Completely agree, of course. The entire idea of a digital signal travelling across a line can and does loose data packets, many times error routines catch these lost packets and have them re-sent. This is an ongoing process and getting the signal 100% to your system is not always a smooth process. This occurs within a closed network such as inside of your home, and of course much more often using a streaming service, both from your ISP and all of the lines and over air transmissions that the signal travels along while getting to your system. All of this can and does affect what you are hearing in your digital music. The best chance of getting the cleanest signal to your DAC is from internal storage, which can also have data transmission issues, but at a greatly reduced rate of occurrence.
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

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  19. #69
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    Re: Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    Any data traveling across extra, extended wires can and does have packet losses (error correction routines) and certainly is much slower than having it stored locally. All things that infringe on data transmission and delivery can and do influence digital music.
    Packet loss with retransmit (reliable network protocols) with early-enough / fast-enough delivery will not impact the quality of playback regardless of being "locally" or "remotely" stored. Those aspects will not have any influence on the playback quality of the music.

    If there is some other side-effect, like the use of the Wi-Fi module introducing noise into internal circuitry, that is different. But not the function of retrieving the data from a remote location or the use of a reliable network protocol that provides the data early enough or fast enough for uninterrupted playback.

    Quote Originally Posted by CPP View Post
    Having been in the business not a cable provider, but telecommunications, the amount of data failures over the network is greater than people realize and then you have the cable companies and their hap hazard maintenance structure, limiting speeds on a whim, maintenance throughout the day is a common occurrence. So people that experience drops out, I would first look at my local providing network before jumping on a service provider, QoBUZ, Tidal or their equipment, sure they have server issues, but most of the time your network ( cable provider) could be at fault.
    When looking at millions or billions of transfers a day, there are a small number of errors in transmission that cannot be rectified only using the error detection and retransmit feature of the reliable network protocol. This set of errors is a very small subset of the larger number of data errors that occur.

    But with extremely high success rates those will be detected and the data transfer will be considered a failure, resulting in playback being stopped or interrupted. So high I would never worry about it as an individual user. It will not result in incorrect or altered data being played back.

    Clients can be programmed to silently retry in order to make it so the end user doesn't even realize a failure occurred, but even if it doesn't do this, on an individual basis the likelihood of hitting an unrecoverable error within a single transmission is extremely low unless there is a network or service outage or other larger failure scenario in play.
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  20. #70
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    Re: Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by NekoAudio View Post
    Packet loss with retransmit (reliable network protocols) with early-enough / fast-enough delivery will not impact the quality of playback regardless of being "locally" or "remotely" stored. Those aspects will not have any influence on the playback quality of the music.

    If there is some other side-effect, like the use of the Wi-Fi module introducing noise into internal circuitry, that is different. But not the function of retrieving the data from a remote location or the use of a reliable network protocol that provides the data early enough or fast enough for uninterrupted playback.



    When looking at millions or billions of transfers a day, there are a small number of errors in transmission that cannot be rectified only using the error detection and retransmit feature of the reliable network protocol. This set of errors is a very small subset of the larger number of data errors that occur.

    But with extremely high success rates those will be detected and the data transfer will be considered a failure, resulting in playback being stopped or interrupted. So high I would never worry about it as an individual user. It will not result in incorrect or altered data being played back.

    Clients can be programmed to silently retry in order to make it so the end user doesn't even realize a failure occurred, but even if it doesn't do this, on an individual basis the likelihood of hitting an unrecoverable error within a single transmission is extremely low unless there is a network or service outage or other larger failure scenario in play.
    I see what you are saying but I'm taking about dropouts, carrier issues, mostly caused by sorry maintenance, and defective plant be it central office or field, and having been apart of a few major Control Centers and 3rd Tier support groups with AT&T/Lucent and a local company in Fla the amount of crap that occurs is mind blowing. Not talking about clients, I'm talking about central office and carrier systems and cable systems.
    Take cable companies, the lets, just work on the terminals in the daytime and cut the service to everyone without any notification, happens all the time. . MY internet was down three weeks ago, called in , got some lame excuse, got in my car and drove a mile down the road and they ( cable company) had the complete terminal out on the ground. I asked what happen to a call, they said, to many people to call, and our OT at night is cut. Out for 4 hours. Can't blame QoBuz or My Streamer for that. Blame the provider. And to set up parameters for retry when the network to your home or business it out, be it failed central office equipment or outside plant equipment.
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  21. #71
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    Re: Roon problems

    When packets are resent they many times arrive out of order or with missing bits. This is especially true the more distance and hops that the data goes through... much of which is now sent over the air which can and does affect what you hear.

    Bits dropped or arrive out of sync certainly does affect what you hear. If the quality of a USB cable affects what you hear (it does) there is no argument to be made that error correction routines, bit drops, packets resend, etc., does not affect what you hear. It certainly does.

    Network data transmission is the single most troublesome area of today's digital technology, and as most everyone who has been into audio for more than a day will attest... everything affects what we hear. Also network over load is very real, especially recently with how the systems are becoming extremely over loaded because of so very many people working from home, world wide.
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

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  22. #72
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    Re: Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by CPP View Post
    I see what you are saying but I'm taking about dropouts, carrier issues, mostly caused by sorry maintenance, and defective plant be it central office or field, and having been apart of a few major Control Centers and 3rd Tier support groups with AT&T/Lucent and a local company in Fla the amount of crap that occurs is mind blowing.
    Yeah, sorry if I wasn't clear. I understood the part where you were referring to interruptions and communication failures, which would just make things stop working. I wanted to add some clarification that although errors in transmission can occur frequently at the lower layers, the protocols used at the higher layers address the majority of those issues. So the only time something is really a problem for users is when things are down or so congested as to prevent sufficient data from arriving by the time it is needed, which then causes things to stop working or pause until the data can be received. But does not cause things to have incorrect data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    When packets are resent they many times arrive out of order or with missing bits. This is especially true the more distance and hops that the data goes through... much of which is now sent over the air which can and does affect what you hear. Bits dropped or arrive out of sync certainly does affect what you hear.
    Reliable network protocols ensure that the final data being processed by the client application does not have any bits dropped, nor have any out of order data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    Also network over load is very real, especially recently with how the systems are becoming extremely over loaded because of so very many people working from home, world wide.

    Network congestion manifests as lower bandwidth for each connection/user but absolutely does not result in the final data missing bits or being reassembled out of order, when using a reliable network protocol.
    Neko Audio
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  23. #73
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    Re: Roon problems

    I still love my Roon Nucleus Plus and the Roon interface. I’ve had the Nucleus Plus for two years with ZERO glitches and it sounds amazing. I also love the functionality and intuitiveness of the Roon interface. I can pull down song lyrics, album descriptions and credits, and even control the analog volume on my Select 2 DAC from my IPad through the Roon endpoint Renderer V2 digital input module. I may purchase SSD for my NAS to reduce the physical noise and increase the speed. Otherwise, I’m totally content. I’m planning on buying a new Accord with the money I’m saving on an expensive audiophile server.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases and Femto 33 Clock; Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus; MSB UMT V Signature Transport
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  24. #74
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    Re: Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    This to me is the perfect solution... the best of both worlds.... Roon's amazing interface and meta-data, etc., and HQPlayer's sound quality playback engine.
    I agree with Randy 100%. Same for me ... although I am sitting on the fence on the Aurender W20SE, more so, I am not that savvy to be able to convert/copy over the Roon files. I am sure Roon knows their business plan and to lowering the quality because of home automation, I doubt they would do that and fail their biggest revenue and high user base they had today. I am not saying I won't move to an Aurender in the future (unless Roon really falters then) but thats a huge investment in terms of money and most of all, the know how and that I suck big time. So, its Roon all the way for me TODAY!
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  25. #75
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    Re: Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    The best chance of getting the cleanest signal to your DAC is from internal storage, which can also have data transmission issues, but at a greatly reduced rate of occurrence.
    A lot of generalizations here. There are two methods for the most part - DAC direct or the use of an endpoint. Which is better will most certainly be a personal preference as well as how one implements either one of these.

    Not sure why the conclusion using a NAS to store files is a bad idea. Personally and IMHO, I buy music to store on NAS and use this local lib on my network (I don't stream) therefore I don't want a noisy computer in my listening room or connected to my DAC, thus an optimized endpoint => Optical rendu (with quality LPS) direct to DAC. Then you can put all networking components (router, modem, managed switch w/ fiber, NAS, UPS, servers etc..) all in util room in a network rack. Then run fiber direct from managed switch to listening room and your golden, again IMHO and just one method that works freaking awesome

  26. #76
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    Re: Roon problems

    A computer certain is not always noisy. All of these custom music only servers are in essence computers. They all have the same components inside.

    I did not say storing on a NAS should not be done. Some people prefer that and that is ok. I did say the more the signal goes through the more that can affect the signal. A noisy NAS (I have yet to see a NAS that is not noisy), router, switches, converting to optical signal, etc., etc. can and does many times affect the signal. Anything that affects the signal can and does affect what you hear.

    If it works for you than that is all that matters. In my case I have enough storage on M.2 and SSD's inside my server box and I prefer it this way because my signal does not go through anything except the cable going to the DAC. This is just the method that I prefer.
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

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  27. #77
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    Re: Roon problems

    I've been consistently happy with Roon. Started with it looking to a qnap nas for the music, and just recently installed a 2tb ssd in the Nucleus. Now the nas is just backup. It's a little faster now that it doesn't have to look to an external device for the files, especially (obviously) if the nas had been in standby.

    The only glitch we ever have is occasionally an iOS device losing and regaining connection to the Core; but connection is regained in about 1 second. And was happening when the iDevice had been idle for a bit. My primary mode of use is running the Roon client on my Macbook, and that never loses connection. Indeed that's something I really like; controlling playback from the Macbook, or my iPhone. And Roon doesn't get 'confused' if multiple clients are connected; it takes its commands as they come.
    Sources: Naim ND555/555PS | Roon Nucleus | Naim Soltstice Special Edition turntable and phono stage
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  28. #78
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    Re: Roon problems

    Yea, I remember helping EJ at a show once and had both an iPad and an Android Tablet controlling Roon on his server at the same time.... no problems at all.

    I personally use a Surface as my controller and set it to not go to sleep or go into screen saver mode. I don't remember the last time I had an issue when using Roon it has been so long.
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

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  29. #79
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    Re: Roon problems

    Roon seems to have a problem connecting to network drives on Mac OS X 11 (Big Sur). I’m running the beta, and a couple of builds ago my NAS wouldn’t connect. I’ve posted on the Roon forum, so they should be aware of it.

    Hopefully it’s fixed before Big Sur makes it’s out to the masses.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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  30. #80
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    Re: Roon problems

    My only Roon issues occurred when I used a Windoze based music server between the NAS & my DAC.

    Since I was sending the files from the NAS through the server (CAPS 3) which acted as my Roon Control Point and on to the McIntosh D100 pre/headphone amp/DAC it was if the server's OS was kicking out the McIntosh driver's needed with Windoze to process the signals through to the DAC. I was constantly having to retrieve the driver's and reload them to the music server.

    When discussing the issue with the Roon community and McIntosh it became a finger pointing fight and I stopped trying to get a definitive answer from either. Don't get me wrong...both have been wonderful at supporting their products but this one just didn't seem to have an answer.

    Then one day I got a call from a friend who had the same CAPS 3 server that I had. I know his was identical to mine as we had built our servers on the same day, on the same bench, in his aircraft hangar. He had also experienced the same issues with the McIntosh drivers on the server. Anyway, his server started to overheat and he pulled it from service to test it on that very same bench he had built it on. He read about the Raspberry Pi and decided to get one to use as a Roon bridge between his NAS & DAC. He installed it and was very pleased with the results so he recommended I do the same.

    I got one, the V4 unit, took the CAPS 3 server out of the system and plugged it in. I moved my Roon Endpoint to my laptop. That little piece of Pi worked great! So now my signal path is:

    NAS ===USB===>Wyred 4 Sound reclocker ===USB===>RP4===USB===>DAC.

    No more dropouts or control issues or finding the server down after a Windows upgrade which always kicked the McIntosh drivers right out the door. The system is rock solid and stable.
    MICHAEL
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  31. #81
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    Re: Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Phishphan View Post
    Roon seems to have a problem connecting to network drives on Mac OS X 11 (Big Sur). I’m running the beta, and a couple of builds ago my NAS wouldn’t connect. I’ve posted on the Roon forum, so they should be aware of it.

    Hopefully it’s fixed before Big Sur makes it’s out to the masses.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Lots of people running Macs have had trouble with the iPad app connecting to Roon core on a Mac. After several yrs of frustration, I finally bought a dedicated music player (totaldac d1-player) to run Roon core and NO connection problems since.
    Analog source: AMG Viella 12; Ortofon Anna cartridge, van den Hul Crimson Stradivarius XGW
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  32. #82
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    Re: Roon problems

    when I was using my windows pc streaming thru a h360 I was losing tidal constantly with roon. Now with a nucleus my occasional problem is playback will stop after a few seconds after selecting an album and I'll need to 'select a zone' then wait a few seconds for my zone to show up on the ipad. I ended up buying a portable hdd to store my music as despite my best efforts I couldn't get roon to locate my music that I stored on itunes.
    KEF Blade, Mc-611's, C49 rega jupiter, roon nucleus, revox tuner. Meridian dsp8000 se upgrade, meridian 218 zone controller VA Beethoven's, Hegel h360.

  33. #83

    Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Phishphan View Post
    Roon seems to have a problem connecting to network drives on Mac OS X 11 (Big Sur). I’m running the beta, and a couple of builds ago my NAS wouldn’t connect. I’ve posted on the Roon forum, so they should be aware of it.

    Hopefully it’s fixed before Big Sur makes it’s out to the masses.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    I used to run Roon on an iMac and was having connecting issues.

    I solved it by “mounting” the drive (or “share” that contains the music) onto the Mac.

    You can google “how to mount a networked drive on a Mac”. Also you need to set it up so that the “drive” is automatically mounted whenever you restart the computer.

  34. #84

    Re: Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by steve59 View Post
    when I was using my windows pc streaming thru a h360 I was losing tidal constantly with roon. Now with a nucleus my occasional problem is playback will stop after a few seconds after selecting an album and I'll need to 'select a zone' then wait a few seconds for my zone to show up on the ipad. I ended up buying a portable hdd to store my music as despite my best efforts I couldn't get roon to locate my music that I stored on itunes.
    You can “map” the location of your iTunes library on your windows PC. Then you can point Roon to that mapped drive and it should work fine after that.

  35. #85
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    Re: Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Yamaki View Post
    My only Roon issues occurred when I used a Windoze based music server between the NAS & my DAC.

    Since I was sending the files from the NAS through the server (CAPS 3) which acted as my Roon Control Point and on to the McIntosh D100 pre/headphone amp/DAC it was if the server's OS was kicking out the McIntosh driver's needed with Windoze to process the signals through to the DAC. I was constantly having to retrieve the driver's and reload them to the music server.

    When discussing the issue with the Roon community and McIntosh it became a finger pointing fight and I stopped trying to get a definitive answer from either. Don't get me wrong...both have been wonderful at supporting their products but this one just didn't seem to have an answer.

    Then one day I got a call from a friend who had the same CAPS 3 server that I had. I know his was identical to mine as we had built our servers on the same day, on the same bench, in his aircraft hangar. He had also experienced the same issues with the McIntosh drivers on the server. Anyway, his server started to overheat and he pulled it from service to test it on that very same bench he had built it on. He read about the Raspberry Pi and decided to get one to use as a Roon bridge between his NAS & DAC. He installed it and was very pleased with the results so he recommended I do the same.

    I got one, the V4 unit, took the CAPS 3 server out of the system and plugged it in. I moved my Roon Endpoint to my laptop. That little piece of Pi worked great! So now my signal path is:

    NAS ===USB===>Wyred 4 Sound reclocker ===USB===>RP4===USB===>DAC.

    No more dropouts or control issues or finding the server down after a Windows upgrade which always kicked the McIntosh drivers right out the door. The system is rock solid and stable.
    Sorry you had issues Michael... it definitely sounds like a McIntosh driver issue. I have used a Windows PC Server with several DACs and never once encountered an issue. My current DAC, T+A has not been affected through several Windows updates. All work perfect including the current Windows 10 version 2004.
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

    “One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrong”
    "You can't use reason to convince anyone out of an argument that they didn't use reason to get into"
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  36. #86
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    Re: Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    Sorry you had issues Michael... it definitely sounds like a McIntosh driver issue. I have used a Windows PC Server with several DACs and never once encountered an issue. My current DAC, T+A has not been affected through several Windows updates. All work perfect including the current Windows 10 version 2004.
    Thanks, Randy. Those days and issues are far behind me thank goodness!
    MICHAEL
    Main|Samsung QLED 4K|McIntosh MC501 - MX151 - MR85 - D100|Aerial Acoustics|Roon|RPI|
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  37. #87
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    Re: Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    I used to run Roon on an iMac and was having connecting issues.

    I solved it by “mounting” the drive (or “share” that contains the music) onto the Mac.

    You can google “how to mount a networked drive on a Mac”. Also you need to set it up so that the “drive” is automatically mounted whenever you restart the computer.

    We always have our NAS mounted to our desktop. Not only do I store all my music on part of it, but my wife uses it for her photography business.

    I’ve tried all the “share” folder routes, and ever other trick that on the Roon forums. Nada. I’m convinced it’s a Big Sur issue.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Preamp/Digital: Meitner MA3
    HT Processor: Bryston SP3
    Amps: Bryston 14b3, Bryston 4b3
    Speakers: Kef Reference 5, Kef Reference 4c
    Sub: REL Carbon Special
    Power: Shunyata Denali, Bryston BIT15
    Wires: Wireworld Silver Eclipse XLR & SC, Ethernet - WW Platinum USB
    Other: Stillpoint Ultra SS, ISO-Acoustics ISO Pucks

    -Kyle

  38. #88

    Re: Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Phishphan View Post
    We always have our NAS mounted to our desktop. Not only do I store all my music on part of it, but my wife uses it for her photography business.

    I’ve tried all the “share” folder routes, and ever other trick that on the Roon forums. Nada. I’m convinced it’s a Big Sur issue.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Ah! Big Sur Beta... got it! I’m running Catalina here. You are brave! I try my best to avoid Betas and first releases.

  39. #89
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Boynton Beach, FL
    Posts
    1,010

    Re: Roon problems

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Ah! Big Sur Beta... got it! I’m running Catalina here. You are brave! I try my best to avoid Betas and first releases.
    There might be a fix. I haven’t tried it yet, but I’ll let you know if it works.

    I’ve been a apple beta tester for many years. I got signed into the program as a IT student in college. I dropped out of the degree program shortly after and switched majors, but they never canceled my login.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Preamp/Digital: Meitner MA3
    HT Processor: Bryston SP3
    Amps: Bryston 14b3, Bryston 4b3
    Speakers: Kef Reference 5, Kef Reference 4c
    Sub: REL Carbon Special
    Power: Shunyata Denali, Bryston BIT15
    Wires: Wireworld Silver Eclipse XLR & SC, Ethernet - WW Platinum USB
    Other: Stillpoint Ultra SS, ISO-Acoustics ISO Pucks

    -Kyle

  40. #90
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Boynton Beach, FL
    Posts
    1,010

    Re: Roon problems

    To give an update to my issue. It was fixed in beta 8 of Big Sur.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Preamp/Digital: Meitner MA3
    HT Processor: Bryston SP3
    Amps: Bryston 14b3, Bryston 4b3
    Speakers: Kef Reference 5, Kef Reference 4c
    Sub: REL Carbon Special
    Power: Shunyata Denali, Bryston BIT15
    Wires: Wireworld Silver Eclipse XLR & SC, Ethernet - WW Platinum USB
    Other: Stillpoint Ultra SS, ISO-Acoustics ISO Pucks

    -Kyle

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Roon problems

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