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  1. #1
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    PayPal just hit me with charge back for the gear I sold, 9 months later!

    This is just radiculous.

    PayPal just hit me with charge back for the gear I sold, 9 months later!

    Gear sold on AudiogoN in JANUARY, delivered via Fedex (signed). No problems at all, no disputes, on PayPal or Agon, all smooth sailing.

    Today, after NINE MONTHS they have hit me with charge back for the full amount received. No warning, nothing.

    The only explanation is this:

    From time to time, PayPal must review selected payments to ensure they are in compliance with our User Agreement and global regulatory requirements. We have determined that there is a risk with this payment that is preventing us from doing it. Sorry for the inconvenience. (my translation from Polish to English)

    Now I can go and f@#$ myself. No gear and no money.

    Buyer was from the HK. I'm unable to even give him a nagative feedback on AgoN, as you have 60 days to do so.

    Thank god it was only a few hundred USD. And people wonder, why all my hi-dollar sales are by bank wire transfer only.

    I will never, ever accept payments via PayPal again.
    Adam

    Speakers: Magico M3
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  2. #2
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    Re: PayPal just hit me with charge back for the gear I sold, 9 months later!

    Adam, thanks for the heads up.

  3. #3
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    Re: PayPal just hit me with charge back for the gear I sold, 9 months later!

    I made a New Year's resolution this year that I'd pay no more of PayPal's fees. When I sell something, I let them know that Zelle, a Postal Money order or a check (after it clears) is preferred. Seeing this, I'm thinking about just ditching PayPal altogether (and probably will do so in the near future). I also haven't used Audiogon is quite some time as their fees have just gotten too high (at least for the hobbyist). I have a pair of (NBS) cables currently for sale and when the ad expires, I just may trade them in vs. bother to re-list them.
    Main System - Lumin U1, Modwright LS36.5 DM Preamp, LSA modded LSA Voyager Amp, EMM Labs DAC 2X (ver. 2), Torus RM-20, Thiel CS 3.7s, 2 Rel S/812 subs
    Back-up 1 - Premium Audio mini Gan Amp, Oppo 103D, 2 Richard Gray cond, Selah SA-2s, Sumiko S5 sub, Teac UD-503 DAC, Carver (modded) C-9
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  4. #4
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    Re: PayPal just hit me with charge back for the gear I sold, 9 months later!

    Phil,

    I have had good luck with US Audio Mart. Sometimes it takes a while to sell something but there are no fees and all buyers I have had were excellent. I list an ad stating Money Orders or Cashier's Checks only but there is always someone insisting on PayPal.

    Adam, I am sorry for your troubles. I thought there was a time limit for a buyer to claim their money back. Thanks for the warning. Does anyone know if there is a time limit?
    Contributor to stereotimes.com

  5. #5
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    Re: PayPal just hit me with charge back for the gear I sold, 9 months later!

    Sorry about that Adam but thank you for the heads up. That’s just insane. I’ll use PayPal with only trusted buyers and more often as a buyer myself. The risks are not worth the potential problems these days.
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  6. #6
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    Re: PayPal just hit me with charge back for the gear I sold, 9 months later!

    +1 for US Audio Mart

    No fees and more stuff listed than on AudiogoN right now.
    Adam

    Speakers: Magico M3
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    Digital: Lampi Pacific + Lampi DSD Komputer
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  7. #7
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    Re: PayPal just hit me with charge back for the gear I sold, 9 months later!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzie View Post
    Phil,

    I have had good luck with US Audio Mart. Sometimes it takes a while to sell something but there are no fees and all buyers I have had were excellent. I list an ad stating Money Orders or Cashier's Checks only but there is always someone insisting on PayPal.

    Adam, I am sorry for your troubles. I thought there was a time limit for a buyer to claim their money back. Thanks for the warning. Does anyone know if there is a time limit?
    That's where I've been listing things over the past few years and sometimes on forums too. Several years back, Audiogon was good and then their fees went through the roof. I tend in many cases to either rotate things to one of my secondary systems or give it away. A week ago, I gave away a Rel Storm III sub to a friend. I had two and one started to act up about 6 months back and so I bought new subs. Can't complain as I had the subs about 20 years. For the hobbyist, selling can just be a hassle. I decided at the end of last year that I'd pay no more PayPal fees. For the amount of stuff I sell, and usually it's not something of great value, I can live without PayPal. There's scammers out there as well.
    Main System - Lumin U1, Modwright LS36.5 DM Preamp, LSA modded LSA Voyager Amp, EMM Labs DAC 2X (ver. 2), Torus RM-20, Thiel CS 3.7s, 2 Rel S/812 subs
    Back-up 1 - Premium Audio mini Gan Amp, Oppo 103D, 2 Richard Gray cond, Selah SA-2s, Sumiko S5 sub, Teac UD-503 DAC, Carver (modded) C-9
    Back-up 2 - Onkyo TX-NR797, Panasonic DP-UB9000, Vansevers cond, B&W P6s, PowerSoundAudio S1500 sub

  8. #8

    Re: PayPal just hit me with charge back for the gear I sold, 9 months later!

    Quote Originally Posted by Elberoth View Post
    +1 for US Audio Mart

    No fees and more stuff listed than on AudiogoN right now.
    The reason PayPal gave for screwing you sounds like it was something internal to PayPal vice a grievance from the person you sold the gear to. I would ask them to provide the real reason they screwed you. It sounds like the payment to you hurt their corporate feelings so they decided to keep your money. Did you contact the person you sold the gear to in HK to see what he knows about it? It doesn't sound like he initiated the boning.
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  9. #9
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    Re: PayPal just hit me with charge back for the gear I sold, 9 months later!

    your buyer was in HK and by extension, China. there's lots of problems currently with their banking system so my Chinese clients tell me. A charge back after 9 mos. isn't unheard of when you have foreign banks that won't play by the rules.

    I wont even accept a cashers check unless I'm with the buyer at their bank watching it being drawn. Eons ago when I flipped cars for extra dough, there was a lot of fraud going around with people showing up with fake cashiers checks. This was before the internet around the time when laser printers were coming on-line, and credible looking fakes could be reproduced. I hear this is a common Craigslist scam still going on today.

  10. #10
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    Re: PayPal just hit me with charge back for the gear I sold, 9 months later!

    If you have the time, you may want to call and track down a human to speak to at PP. I've had a couple of strange things happen with PP in the past though nothing as serious as what you experienced. Maybe someone there can give you a more meaningful explanation of what's going on and help you with a gameplan to get your money back. I was able to get positive resolution in my cases.

  11. #11

    Re: PayPal just hit me with charge back for the gear I sold, 9 months later!

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    your buyer was in HK and by extension, China. there's lots of problems currently with their banking system so my Chinese clients tell me. A charge back after 9 mos. isn't unheard of when you have foreign banks that won't play by the rules.

    I wont even accept a cashers check unless I'm with the buyer at their bank watching it being drawn. Eons ago when I flipped cars for extra dough, there was a lot of fraud going around with people showing up with fake cashiers checks. This was before the internet around the time when laser printers were coming on-line, and credible looking fakes could be reproduced. I hear this is a common Craigslist scam still going on today.
    That is totally false. HK financial system is one of the safest in the world. PayPal is a US company. They did not provide the reason for charge back and you blame the financial system in HK. Do you mean there are no scammers in US?

  12. #12
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    Re: PayPal just hit me with charge back for the gear I sold, 9 months later!

    Did PayPal take the money out of your PayPal account or your bank?

    If PayPal account, lesson learned. NEVER keep money in your PayPal account.

    If bank, then complain to them.


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  13. #13
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    Re: PayPal just hit me with charge back for the gear I sold, 9 months later!

    Quote Originally Posted by Adyc View Post
    That is totally false. HK financial system is one of the safest in the world. PayPal is a US company. They did not provide the reason for charge back and you blame the financial system in HK. Do you mean there are no scammers in US?
    I never said there aren't scammers here, did you not see my comment about fake checks? there are bank runs in China and people are loosing all of their savings. One of your 'scammers' stole billions and is on the lamb, purportedly he's escaped to the US. At this time I wouldn't invest a dime in HK until there's a regime change.

  14. #14
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    Re: PayPal just hit me with charge back for the gear I sold, 9 months later!

    Let that be a warning.

    I stopped selling on eBay until because of PayPal. And I refuse to accept PayPal as a form of payment. I had a buyer raise a dispute in eBay for "item not received". The buyer provided a completely wrong shipping address. That claim was found by eBay in my favor and the case was closed. The buyer then tried the same claim in PayPal, despite its terms of use stating that a dispute resolved by eBay can't be raised again in PayPal. PayPal reversed the eBay decision and found in favor of the buyer and refunded him. Fortunately I had shifted the money out on my linked account so PayPal couldn't reclaim the money out of me. They had debt collectors chase me for the money but I refused to pay. In the end they gave up. My PayPal account has a negative balance so that was the only collateral for me, I lost use of that PayPal account until I clear the debt. Also, I sold an item to an international buyer who paid with PayPal. The buyer then refused to pay import taxes so the item wasn't cleared by UK Customs. Meaning it wasn't delivered so I couldn't provide proof of delivery. The buyer made a "item not received" claim in PayPal and won. Again I had shifted the money from my linked account so PayPal couldn't get its money back from me after refunding the buyer.
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  15. #15

    Re: PayPal just hit me with charge back for the gear I sold, 9 months later!

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    I never said there aren't scammers here, did you not see my comment about fake checks? there are bank runs in China and people are loosing all of their savings. One of your 'scammers' stole billions and is on the lamb, purportedly he's escaped to the US. At this time I wouldn't invest a dime in HK until there's a regime change.
    Well you have Madoff which is 100 times worse and it happens in a country suppose to have strong financial regulations. I would say the same I would not invest a single penny in Us hedge fund until there are better regulations.

  16. #16
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    Re: PayPal just hit me with charge back for the gear I sold, 9 months later!

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil A View Post
    I made a New Year's resolution this year that I'd pay no more of PayPal's fees. When I sell something, I let them know that Zelle, a Postal Money order or a check (after it clears) is preferred. Seeing this, I'm thinking about just ditching PayPal altogether (and probably will do so in the near future). I also haven't used Audiogon is quite some time as their fees have just gotten too high (at least for the hobbyist). I have a pair of (NBS) cables currently for sale and when the ad expires, I just may trade them in vs. bother to re-list them.
    Same here Phil.
    2chl : Pass Xa-30.5, W4S STP, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, VPI Classic, Manley Chinook, Bryston CD, BHA-1, HD650, HD800s, HD820's, Dan Clark 1.1, Focal Stellia, OPPO 203, 105.

  17. #17
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    Re: PayPal just hit me with charge back for the gear I sold, 9 months later!

    You can restrict Audiogon listing to Stripe, and uncheck PayPal. Stripe fees are lower than PayPal on Audiogon anyway, and Stripe's fee structure and refund policies are better too.
    Neko Audio
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  18. #18
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    Re: PayPal just hit me with charge back for the gear I sold, 9 months later!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Did PayPal take the money out of your PayPal account or your bank?

    If PayPal account, lesson learned. NEVER keep money in your PayPal account.

    If bank, then complain to them.
    From my PP account. Going negative balance and closing the account forever is not an option for me. I buy way too much stuff using PayPal.

    Plus, to withdraw USD while in other country, PayPal FORCES you to change the USD to your local currency (say EUR) and takes additional 2.5% fee. You are not able to get your USD even if you have a local USD account.

    It would be the same for US account if you try to withdraw say EUR or GBP. 2.5% extra cut for them.

    This is just another way for them to make extra money.
    Adam

    Speakers: Magico M3
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    Digital: Lampi Pacific + Lampi DSD Komputer
    Cables: AQ WEL Signature IC / Synergistic Research Foundation / AQ Hurricane PCs

  19. #19
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    Re: PayPal just hit me with charge back for the gear I sold, 9 months later!

    I understand you have to use PP, but I closed my account last year and never looked back.

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PayPal just hit me with charge back for the gear I sold, 9 months later!

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