Mega buck systems.

There are very few people in the world that can truly afford the Uber expensive gear.

The median income for a family of 4 in the Minneapolis area is 67,000. If I recall, West Palm Beach was around 51,000. 100k in disposable cash is more than most people will ever see. When a product reaches that price tag, it’s not going to fly off the shelves.

Not to mention the dealers buy the floor items, so it’s a huge risk to have the mega buck items in stock given the incredibly small section of the population that could afford them.


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The people shopping for Harbeth 30.2’s are amazed someone actually buys a much more expensive speaker like Magico S5’s or Avantgarde Duo’s. People buying S5’s are amazed someone buys a more expensive speaker like M3’s. People buying M3’s are.... you get the point.

Yes, people buy equipment across a wide variety of price points.

I’ve sold several pairs of speakers costing well over $150,000. What may surprise you is that 85% or my customers are not on any forum. They’re too busy installing knees and shoulders (Orthopedic Surgeon) or working as a world class eye surgeon or running multiple successful businesses or a top lawyer in Manhattan. I just spent two days in my store with a top attorney from New York because he disliked all the New York dealers and their attitudes and had several things to hear and buy to build out his system.

As for demos, well, yes, we have to buy all of our equipment. That’s why I’m very picky over what I bring in and only bring in what I love and what I would buy myself....because I do have to actually buy it!

Mordante said:

I was browsing the Munich thread and most of the pics were of super expensive systems. I wonder if there is actually a market for systems like these. Where I live the Magico dealers don’t have anything above the S5 or most likely only the S3 in store. The Raidho dealers stop at the D3 and Wilson dealers might have a Sabrina or Yvette but nothing above that.
So I wonder if there actually is a market for the mega buck systems (systems above €100k) or if the top end speakers, DACs, etc are mostly for marketing purposes.

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Yes [emoji3].


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There’s a market for everything, the more expensive, fewer buyers

I get what the OP is saying though

Something else to ponder is items purchased and hardly used cost even more.

Assuming one puts together a 100K system and listens to it 4 hours per week, for 5 years it comes to something like $96 per hour or $384 a week.

For the finance guys what would that look if it was invested for that same period?

For the psychology guys what would this do to a person not having the mega buck system?


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Phishphan said:

There are very few people in the world that can truly afford the Uber expensive gear.

The median income for a family of 4 in the Minneapolis area is 67,000. If I recall, West Palm Beach was around 51,000. 100k in disposable cash is more than most people will ever see. When a product reaches that price tag, it’s not going to fly off the shelves.

Not to mention the dealers buy the floor items, so it’s a huge risk to have the mega buck items in stock given the incredibly small section of the population that could afford them.


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Click to expand...

The average income for a family with children would be around euro80k before tax. So after tax that would be around euro40k

Mike said:

The people shopping for Harbeth 30.2’s are amazed someone actually buys a much more expensive speaker like Magico S5’s or Avantgarde Duo’s. People buying S5’s are amazed someone buys a more expensive speaker like M3’s. People buying M3’s are.... you get the point.

Yes, people buy equipment across a wide variety of price points.

I’ve sold several pairs of speakers costing well over $150,000. What may surprise you is that 85% or my customers are not on any forum. They’re too busy installing knees and shoulders (Orthopedic Surgeon) or working as a world class eye surgeon or running multiple successful businesses or a top lawyer in Manhattan. I just spent two days in my store with a top attorney from New York because he disliked all the New York dealers and their attitudes and had several things to hear and buy to build out his system.

As for demos, well, yes, we have to buy all of our equipment. That’s why I’m very picky over what I bring in and only bring in what I love and what I would buy myself....because I do have to actually buy it!

Click to expand...

Maybe it is because in the USA consumer goods tend to be cheaper and wages are higher.

As example the S5mkII costs about $38k in the USA and $59k in the Netherlands in basic M cast finish. A surgeon working for hospital would earn between €70k and €130k a surgeon working for himself might earn max €250k annually before tax. So a surgeon at the top of his career can maybe afford a S5 mkII. A top lawyer might earn €250k.

My dealer is also very picky. That is why he will not buy speakers for his store costing more than say €80k since there is no market for anything more expensive. He sometimes has a "statement product". Years back he had a pair of the Magico M5 speakers the wooden model and now he has the small EMM labs mono amps. But no shop actually has stuff like MSB dacs, TechDas turntables or Kronos turntables on stock. At least not with a few hundred km from where I live.

There is another aspect to this as well why most shops don't have the super expensive gear on stock. But that is for another discussion.

Big egos generally need big expensive gear. The number of high end set ups (100k and up) that I've seen and heard that don't live up to their potential is greater than one would think.

Mordante said:

I was browsing the Munich thread and most of the pics were of super expensive systems.

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Yes, it looks more like a high fashion jewelry show.
But keep in mind, it is very expensive to exhibit there. I think close to 10k euro for even a small room, far more for the bigger ones. As such, it would make little sense for a manufacturer to show their entry level $1-3k equipment...even though that is probably what the vast majority of show attendees can afford. Especially the younger crowd "budding audiophile", which many high end writers pay lip service lamenting about...then go on to swoon almost exclusively over the mega price jewelry.
If the exhibit spaces were significantly less costly, an exhibitor might be more tempted to show both lower and higher ends of line, perhaps in multiple rooms, as to appeal to a wider array of the spectrum of attendees. Perhaps a win win for both seller and consumer.

Mike said:

The people shopping for Harbeth 30.2’s are amazed someone actually buys a much more expensive speaker like Magico S5’s or Avantgarde Duo’s. People buying S5’s are amazed someone buys a more expensive speaker like M3’s. People buying M3’s are.... you get the point.

Yes, people buy equipment across a wide variety of price points.

I’ve sold several pairs of speakers costing well over $150,000. What may surprise you is that 85% or my customers are not on any forum. They’re too busy installing knees and shoulders (Orthopedic Surgeon) or working as a world class eye surgeon or running multiple successful businesses or a top lawyer in Manhattan. I just spent two days in my store with a top attorney from New York because he disliked all the New York dealers and their attitudes and had several things to hear and buy to build out his system.

As for demos, well, yes, we have to buy all of our equipment. That’s why I’m very picky over what I bring in and only bring in what I love and what I would buy myself....because I do have to actually buy it!

Click to expand...

Mike, you brought a good point. I really don't understand why manufactures expect dealers to pay full MSRP to demo their products? Wouldn't it be better if they loan few samples to the dealers for demo with condition that if dealers able to sell certain number of units in certain time period then dealers don't have to pay for the demo samples or just pay only manufacturing costs. They don't have to carry the entire lines but just few samples. This way dealers don't have to invest so much in inventory, manufactures able to increase their dealer networks, and increase sales. These days more and more B&M stores are closing and cost of high end gears are getting higher and higher. My jaw dropped when I looked at the price of new Dynaudio Confidence line, Dan D'agostino monster monoblocks costing $250K per pair.

ben said:

Mike, you brought a good point. I really don't understand why manufactures expect dealers to pay full MSRP to demo their products? Wouldn't it be better if they loan few samples to the dealers for demo with condition that if dealers able to sell certain number of units in certain time period then dealers don't have to pay for the demo samples or just pay only manufacturing costs. They don't have to carry the entire lines but just few samples. This way dealers don't have to invest so much in inventory, manufactures able to increase their dealer networks, and increase sales. These days more and more B&M stores are closing and cost of high end gears are getting higher and higher. My jaw dropped when I looked at the price of new Dynaudio Confidence line, Dan D'agostino monster monoblocks costing $250K per pair.

Click to expand...

An awesome idea. I would support that big time. To their credit, that’s what Lampizator did with me and they were rewarded with sales they would not have otherwise received.


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Mike said:

An awesome idea. I would support that big time. To their credit, that’s what Lampizator did with me and they were rewarded with sales they would not have otherwise received.


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Glad to hear that. See Lampizator thinks out of box and it worked for them. Too many high end companies lack common business sense. They are great innovator but not great businessmen.

Mike said:

The people shopping for Harbeth 30.2’s are amazed someone actually buys a much more expensive speaker like Magico S5’s or Avantgarde Duo’s. People buying S5’s are amazed someone buys a more expensive speaker like M3’s. People buying M3’s are.... you get the point.

Yes, people buy equipment across a wide variety of price points.

I’ve sold several pairs of speakers costing well over $150,000. What may surprise you is that 85% or my customers are not on any forum. They’re too busy installing knees and shoulders (Orthopedic Surgeon) or working as a world class eye surgeon or running multiple successful businesses or a top lawyer in Manhattan. I just spent two days in my store with a top attorney from New York because he disliked all the New York dealers and their attitudes and had several things to hear and buy to build out his system.

As for demos, well, yes, we have to buy all of our equipment. That’s why I’m very picky over what I bring in and only bring in what I love and what I would buy myself....because I do have to actually buy it!

Click to expand...

My post may be a little OT, but something Mike said made me want to say something.

This reminded me of an experience I had last year. I went to my favorite Portland, OR dealer to ask about auditioning a pair of speakers. They are a Spendor dealer. I really wanted to audition the SP100 speakers, but was told they would have to first buy a pair in order to have them in store. At $10k they'd be lucky to sell one pair per year. If I didn't like them enough to buy them, the dealer might be stuck with them for many months or longer. It turns out no one within many hundreds of miles had a pair. I did spend 2 hours listening to their Focal Sopra No.3 demo speakers, but decided they weren't what I wanted.

Soon after, I drove something like 6 hours north to the Daedalus Audio showroom/workspace to audition three pairs of floor standers. That was enough to convince me to buy a pair of Lou's new Apollo speakers. A six hour drive is nothing to sneeze at, but it beats having to fly to LA, Chicago, or New York to audition a pair of SP100 speakers. It must be tough to be a brick & mortar dealer now.

mresseguie said:

My post may be a little OT, but something Mike said made me want to say something.

This reminded me of an experience I had last year. I went to my favorite Portland, OR dealer to ask about auditioning a pair of speakers. They are a Spendor dealer. I really wanted to audition the SP100 speakers, but was told they would have to first buy a pair in order to have them in store. At $10k they'd be lucky to sell one pair per year. If I didn't like them enough to buy them, the dealer might be stuck with them for many months or longer. It turns out no one within many hundreds of miles had a pair. I did spend 2 hours listening to their Focal Sopra No.3 demo speakers, but decided they weren't what I wanted.

Soon after, I drove something like 6 hours north to the Daedalus Audio showroom/workspace to audition three pairs of floor standers. That was enough to convince me to buy a pair of Lou's new Apollo speakers. A six hour drive is nothing to sneeze at, but it beats having to fly to LA, Chicago, or New York to audition a pair of SP100 speakers. It must be tough to be a brick & mortar dealer now.

Click to expand...

It's definitely interesting. I come from a background of over 25 years dealing with huge multi-billion dollar companies like Coca-Cola, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Nike, US Army, Navy, etc. So, I find the audio industry a refreshing change, but not without its quirks thats for sure. I would love to sometime sit down over a drink and tell you about some of the interesting things that go on. For the most part, the manufacturers are awesome. Really terrific people and fun to deal with. They are also very supportive.

As for the model of speaker you wanted to hear, I can sympathize with that other dealer. I've had more than a few folks ask about the S7's and I have the A3's, S3 mk2's, S5 mk2's and M3's. You just can't have them all. Luckily, I have local customers who have been willing to open up their homes and demo their S7's with me for the customer.

ben said:

Mike, you brought a good point. I really don't understand why manufactures expect dealers to pay full MSRP to demo their products? Wouldn't it be better if they loan few samples to the dealers for demo with condition that if dealers able to sell certain number of units in certain time period then dealers don't have to pay for the demo samples or just pay only manufacturing costs. They don't have to carry the entire lines but just few samples. This way dealers don't have to invest so much in inventory, manufactures able to increase their dealer networks, and increase sales. These days more and more B&M stores are closing and cost of high end gears are getting higher and higher. My jaw dropped when I looked at the price of new Dynaudio Confidence line, Dan D'agostino monster monoblocks costing $250K per pair.

Click to expand...

What makes you you think dealers pay full MSRP for any products they purchase from an OEM?

Mikado463 said:

The number of high end set ups (100k and up) that I've seen and heard that don't live up to their potential is greater than one would think.

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Agreed.

Nowhere close to their true potential as opposed to how they perform when (or if) set-up properly.

And yes, there are definitely a number of components that simply don't compete at their price points.

IMO.

The truth is if you can make one sale off a show, then you might as well make it a big one.

As for loaning gear to dealers, less established manufacturers are more keen on that. When it comes to the big boys, they want dealers who can push the product and show they are serious about selling it. They want a dealer who will buy-in because it shows a commitment. If you buy into the product, you are also more inclined to sell it because of said commitment.

I personally wouldn't want this to be an industry where loaners were the standard. It would create a ton of mess and might cause the dealer networks to implode even more than they did a decade ago. The idea is that if the dealer commits to the manufacturer/distributor, then the commitment is reciprocated.

Jim Smith said:

Agreed.

Nowhere close to their true potential as opposed to how they perform when (or if) set-up properly.

And yes, there are definitely a number of components that simply don't compete at their price points.

IMO.

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Personally, I feel, and appropriately so, most of the stuff in the higher price points have a higher bar set. One of the big problems is most of these products are judged at shows where they are definitely less than ideal locations for them to be judged. if you have a dealer like Mike, who has, from what I understand (and one day I will get over to Tampa to see and hear) a good showroom properly setup you may get a better understanding for the product. BUT even then, you are listening in showroom conditions with multiple variables and difficult to truly grasp the product you are judging; whether it be a speaker, DAC, etc. Mike was kind enough to lend a guy a Select to compare it to his dCS stack; there it is one variable, in ones system that the customer can truly judge for himself.

Then of course, and I see this just too often, you have clients who believe the equipment "makes" the system and their room will never allow the system to perform to spec. My days of dealing high end audio in NYC back in the 80s was filled with people flipping equipment because it never sounded the way they felt it changing equipment was the answer rather than the room or buying a system fit for the size and customization of the their room.

Before judging a product to compete on their respective price points, the system should be optimized.

Just one other point regarding a statistical perspective. The more popular products, such as Wilson, Magico, Audio Research and a host of others by the very nature will have more opportunity to be heard and as a result more opportunity to be heard in optimal circumstances than the less popular brands; because their are more dealers, more in customers homes, more being shown at shows in more rooms, etc. One of my gripes with the less popular brands is IF they are going to swing for a grand slam, if they don't get it right at a show, since there are so few other places to hear them, a strike out can have dire consequences; for these guys it is a tough call; do they show their super expensive product at a show with the inherent risks or optimize for their less costly products?

DSkip said:

The truth is if you can make one sale off a show, then you might as well make it a big one.

As for loaning gear to dealers, less established manufacturers are more keen on that. When it comes to the big boys, they want dealers who can push the product and show they are serious about selling it. They want a dealer who will buy-in because it shows a commitment. If you buy into the product, you are also more inclined to sell it because of said commitment.

I personally wouldn't want this to be an industry where loaners were the standard. It would create a ton of mess and might cause the dealer networks to implode even more than they did a decade ago. The idea is that if the dealer commits to the manufacturer/distributor, then the commitment is reciprocated.

Click to expand...

They also want the dealer to mitigate their costs. Every time a new product is released, it is up to the dealer to sell their demo, not the manufacturer and for the dealer to buy a new demo and despite it being purchased at "dealer cost" if the manufacturer has enough dealers, as with Wilson and Magico, they have already guaranteed themselves a profit or a significant reduction of risk. Dealers are one of the best "customers" for the manufacturers.

Priaptor said:

They also want the dealer to mitigate their costs. Every time a new product is released, it is up to the dealer to sell their demo, not the manufacturer and for the dealer to buy a new demo and despite it being purchased at "dealer cost" if the manufacturer has enough dealers, as with Wilson and Magico, they have already guaranteed themselves a profit or a significant reduction of risk. Dealers are one of the best "customers" for the manufacturers.

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Which goes hand in hand with my statement. The manufacturer has a responsibility to produce the best product they can at that price point and in return, its the dealers job to buy in and generate the sales. Obviously there is more to it than that, but the gist is there.

Technically, the dealers should be the ONLY customers for the manufacturers.

ben said:

Mike, you brought a good point. I really don't understand why manufactures expect dealers to pay full MSRP to demo their products? Wouldn't it be better if they loan few samples to the dealers for demo with condition that if dealers able to sell certain number of units in certain time period then dealers don't have to pay for the demo samples or just pay only manufacturing costs. They don't have to carry the entire lines but just few samples. This way dealers don't have to invest so much in inventory, manufactures able to increase their dealer networks, and increase sales. These days more and more B&M stores are closing and cost of high end gears are getting higher and higher. My jaw dropped when I looked at the price of new Dynaudio Confidence line, Dan D'agostino monster monoblocks costing $250K per pair.

Click to expand...

I think there are some problems with this idea. Most manufacturers don't deal with dealers, they deal with distributors. Distributors are often not big companies. I have seen distributors where only one persons works. Sometimes even as a side job because there is little money to be earned in it. Some distributors are a little bigger but most of the time no bigger than three of four people.

Also some brands/distributors "force" shops to sell the whole product line while the retailer might only be interested in one or two products.