Thread: LTA/Steve Guttenberg/Are there true bargains in the high end?

I enjoy watching some of Steve Guttenberg's videos. He comes across with a positivity and passion for both gear and music that is very engaging. His channel covers more main stream equipment than is the currency of higher-end focused sharks on this forum.
I recently watched his video on the Linear Tube ZOTL preamp. It is an interesting piece. It did make me wonder, though... Do pieces like this really compete with more expensive components? Can a small, direct to consumer operation truly offer pieces that compete with powerhouse firms like Esoteric, Soulution, Gryphon with large R&D budgets? Or at the end of the day, are we paying for the big boys' marketing departments and Rune Skov's suits?
Are we as high end audiophiles secure enough to pay $10k for components when there are trumped up $70K components out there?
Multiple points above, but at the end of the day, my main question is whether some of these small shop pieces are truly able to compete with the bigger high end forces, that do have extensive R&D and special manufacturing capabilites?

Direct to consumer can compete in the arenas they play in. I have never compared anything to ultra high end though. I will give you some examples I have experienced.

I bought a Audio By Van Alstine power amp. It was good but finish not on par. I do understand the case was later upgraded. I bought the AVA preamp at $2500.00 and that preamp was outstanding, performing better or at least as good as other preamps I heard in that price. A plastic remote but the unit itself was well built and sounded really good.

I compared a Emotiva CDP to a NAD for slightly more money, I chose the Emotiva. Different sounds but the Emo was metal, aluminum remote, the sound stage was larger and I felt more transparent. That was some time ago and the Emo was $399 and I think the NAD like $450 or so.

I had a Velodyne sub that died just out of warranty. I paid exactly the same money for a SVS that was so much better I was shocked. In this case the money bought a much better direct product.

I'm not sure if Coda is considered direct or not. Their products definitely compete.

I feel a direct company needs to be good they rely alot on their rep.. That doesn't mean it's like that in reality.

I have purchased a couple subs from emotiva that died. They wouldn't take them back because I didn't have original box. They finally did ship me replacement amps but I sold the subs once they were fixed.

One of my clients is using a Linear Tube preamp in his Magico speaker setup. He picked it as his favorite after listening to several other tube options.

Originally Posted by Ricky64

Are we as high end audiophiles secure enough to pay $10k for components when there are trumped up $70K components out there?

Sure, why not? A simple equation that is true with respect to product development: Value=Quality/Price.

Schiit Audio is a good example of a company that provides excellent Value because of the Quality (design, engineering, functionality, and parts specification) you get for the Price.

Other good examples besides the ones mentioned are First Watt, ANK (Audio Note Kits), Eversolo, HiFi Rose, and Rega.

Originally Posted by Ricky64

Multiple points above, but at the end of the day, my main question is whether some of these small shop pieces are truly able to compete with the bigger high end forces, that do have extensive R&D and special manufacturing capabilites?

Once again, sure why not? Respectfully, none of this is rocket science, we're not talkin' Lunar Orbit Insertion mechanics here or the like, this is just basic VOC (Voice of Customer), DFSS, & Ops best practices.

What it all comes down to, quite simply, is the expertise of the engineering staff, how clearly they understand their VOC, and concomitantly how EFFECTIVELY (doing the RIGHT thing) they think about innovating their product design, their ability to implement functionality and quality for the design, and how EFFICIENTLY (doing things RIGHT) they can put their product designs into SPC (statistical process control) in Ops (Mfg and QC).

All this was codified by W. Edwards Deming in the 50's and extended by Griffin & Hauser, who developed Voice of the Customer, aka VoC, and John Clausen (who developed The House of Quality), and the Japanese manufacturing industry who actually (unlike most American companies) put all these best practices into practice starting in the 70s. The best practices cited here are why the Japanese auto industry was able to take significant market share from American auto industry in this time frame, BTW. Because they built cars that...worked and didn't break. Imagine that. Again, not rocket science.

No "magic" here, just good VOC, good engineering, and good mfg best practices based on a clear understanding of what creates value for customers.

Originally Posted by Ricky64

I enjoy watching some of Steve Guttenberg's videos. He comes across with a positivity and passion for both gear and music that is very engaging. His channel covers more main stream equipment than is the currency of higher-end focused sharks on this forum.
I recently watched his video on the Linear Tube ZOTL preamp. It is an interesting piece. It did make me wonder, though... Do pieces like this really compete with more expensive components? Can a small, direct to consumer operation truly offer pieces that compete with powerhouse firms like Esoteric, Soulution, Gryphon with large R&D budgets? Or at the end of the day, are we paying for the big boys' marketing departments and Rune Skov's suits?
Are we as high end audiophiles secure enough to pay $10k for components when there are trumped up $70K components out there?
Multiple points above, but at the end of the day, my main question is whether some of these small shop pieces are truly able to compete with the bigger high end forces, that do have extensive R&D and special manufacturing capabilites?

Interesting only if you like midfi ( sound not prices ) Audio ...


Regards

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Interesting only if you like midfi ( sound not prices ) Audio ...


Regards

Steve also reviews high-end products as well. Here are just a few references:
1) Børresen X3, You Gotta Hear These Speakers! - YouTube

2) GATO PWR-222 Monoblock Amplifier, SHAKEN & STIRRED! - YouTube

3) TAD CE1TX: BEST 'Small' Speaker on the Planet! - YouTube

I thought he meant anything you buy direct is going to be mid-fi at best.

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

Steve also reviews high-end products as well. Here are just a few references:
1) Børresen X3, You Gotta Hear These Speakers! - YouTube

2) GATO PWR-222 Monoblock Amplifier, SHAKEN & STIRRED! - YouTube

3) TAD CE1TX: BEST 'Small' Speaker on the Planet! - YouTube

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

I thought he meant anything you buy direct is going to be mid-fi at best.

Steve also reviewed my Tambaqui, and quite liked it. He decided to put the MicroZOTL pre amp in his own system. How many of us here really know what a piece like this sounds like when surrounded by good components? Are we missing some good pieces by dismissing them as mid-fi because they do not have a high end dealer, or have reviews in TAS? I think we high enders are pretty exclusionary, and could be missing some good pieces. It would take a lot of work and the kissing of a lot of frogs, to find them though. I think we also need to value our relationships with trusted dealers who can point us in the right direction, especially re synergy.

While there are exceptions, I do not think small companies selling direct necessarily offer good value. Product cycles can be short. Due to cash flow issues, they do not fully develop a product and then introduce updated models too frequently. These companies can go out of business quickly due to illness, death, divorce or financial issues. On another forum I am aware of at least 3 (I think 4) speaker builders who went out of business leaving their budget-conscious customers with orphan products and no support. Electronic component builders with no manufacturing equipment or serious real estate can easily go out of business. That is in sharp contrast to companies like Boulder, MSB, and Magico that have many millions invested in equipment and buildings.

My personal experience has been poor. I bought an Audio Mirror Tubadour DAC which was quickly replaced by two upgraded models. Now nobody wants to buy my DAC. During the same length of time I have owned a Bricasti DAC that is still a current model. It is a keeper but if I decide to upgrade I would definitely consider Bricasti again.

My last Memory Player from Laufer-Teknik was a Rube Goldberg created Frankenstein. It was the worst design I have ever seen. I had nothing but problems and when it bricked after less than a year I was left with a total financial loss. When Sam Laufer realized I would never buy another product from him he refused to make it right.

I asked another small builder of music servers what his plan of succession was. He responded he was usually asked technical questions and no one had ever asked about succession. He said he would get back to me. That was a couple of year ago and I never received a response. I ultimately bought an Aurender N20 and like it so much I will buy another Aurender for my 2nd system. There is value in a fully-developed product with good support from a company with deep pockets and a solid business model.

I asked a speaker builder what his plan of succession was and he told me orders were good. Kind of missed the point entirely.

Circling back to a brand mentioned earlier, LTA, this company might be one of the exceptions I alluded to. I am not sure what their depth of personnel is so I cannot speak to succession. I did own a Z10 integrated. It was under powered (13wpc) for the application I was using it in but it was one of the best sounding integrateds I have ever heard. Very musical and a joy to listen to. I loved the look and finish too. I hated to sell it but it did not fit my needs. Is it a good value at $4900?

Originally Posted by Dizzie

While there are exceptions, I do not think small companies selling direct necessarily offer good value.

and

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

I thought he meant anything you buy direct is going to be mid-fi at best.

I'd like to see the data that supports these "hypotheses".

This certainly was not true of Henry Kloss of Advent, David Hafler of Dynaco and Hafler, nor is it true of Jason or Mike at Schiit Audio, or Danny at GR-Research, or Mads of Buchardt Speakers, or Sean Casey of Zu Loudspeakers. Anyone that says that Sean Casey doesn't know how to design and build a terrific loudspeaker is flat wrong, in my first-hand experience. He's one of the smartest and most innovative audio engineers I've ever met.

From the reviews I've seean of the LTA, that appears to be true for their products, as well.

Oh, and then there's these little "puppies"...the Amp Camp Amps.





Built with high-quality parts (Vishay metal-film resistors, caps, etc.) and run as bridged monos, particularly with fully-balanced XLR ICs, they're one of the finest amps I've ever heard. Of course they are, they're designed by...Nelson Pass. And, Nelson knows a thing or two about amp design, IIRC.

Mid-fi? Um...No.

They are sold direct at DIYAudio for a whopping $359/each for a kit.

BTW, Toyota Motor's CEO just announced two days ago they are going to only be selling to Direct to Consumers. Does that make the quality of their automobiles, which has been a benchmark for the automobile industry for over 40 years any lower?

Once again, I think the answer here is...No.

BTW, the Aurender N20 is a terrific product. Really enjoyed my time with it. Very good company.

Originally Posted by Ricky64

How many of us here really know what a piece like this sounds like when surrounded by good components?

In the absence of "data"...we don't.

I would throw the Backert Rythm pre into this discussion also...

Mid-fi?, I don't care if its low Fi, midfi, hifi or way out there fi. If it sounds good to you, who freaking cares. The only people that seem to care are negative keyboard warriors.

Originally Posted by Dizzie

While there are exceptions, I do not think small companies selling direct necessarily offer good value. Product cycles can be short. Due to cash flow issues, they do not fully develop a product and then introduce updated models too frequently. These companies can go out of business quickly due to illness, death, divorce or financial issues. On another forum I am aware of at least 3 (I think 4) speaker builders who went out of business leaving their budget-conscious customers with orphan products and no support. Electronic component builders with no manufacturing equipment or serious real estate can easily go out of business. That is in sharp contrast to companies like Boulder, MSB, and Magico that have many millions invested in equipment and buildings.

My personal experience has been poor. I bought an Audio Mirror Tubadour DAC which was quickly replaced by two upgraded models. Now nobody wants to buy my DAC. During the same length of time I have owned a Bricasti DAC that is still a current model. It is a keeper but if I decide to upgrade I would definitely consider Bricasti again.

My last Memory Player from Laufer-Teknik was a Rube Goldberg created Frankenstein. It was the worst design I have ever seen. I had nothing but problems and when it bricked after less than a year I was left with a total financial loss. When Sam Laufer realized I would never buy another product from him he refused to make it right.

I asked another small builder of music servers what his plan of succession was. He responded he was usually asked technical questions and no one had ever asked about succession. He said he would get back to me. That was a couple of year ago and I never received a response. I ultimately bought an Aurender N20 and like it so much I will buy another Aurender for my 2nd system. There is value in a fully-developed product with good support from a company with deep pockets and a solid business model.

I asked a speaker builder what his plan of succession was and he told me orders were good. Kind of missed the point entirely.

Circling back to a brand mentioned earlier, LTA, this company might be one of the exceptions I alluded to. I am not sure what their depth of personnel is so I cannot speak to succession. I did own a Z10 integrated. It was under powered (13wpc) for the application I was using it in but it was one of the best sounding integrateds I have ever heard. Very musical and a joy to listen to. I loved the look and finish too. I hated to sell it but it did not fit my needs. Is it a good value at $4900? :dunno:

A 13 watt amp is going to demand that you have very sensitive speakers. What speakers were you attempting to drive with the Z10? As far as value goes, that's up to the customers to decide that. For me, a 13 watt integrated amp is a nonstarter regardless of its price.

Originally Posted by puroagave

With small, low-volume boutique cos. you kinda have to plan on losing half your investment to instant depreciation, and possibly a complete write-off. Been there a few times. Back to the OP, I had the orig. LTA amps (20 wpc OTL) driving the top half of Avantgarde Uno XDs and they were superb, the best I tried including Allnic 300b amps. The Schiit Freya+ preamp is another, they went up a little and now $1,100. this linestage keeps up with a tube pre I'm using thats north of 26k.

Yup. As I mentioned earlier, when I used my Schiit Valhalla 2 as a preamp for a bit, I was surprised how it kept up sonically with my $8500 C-J CT-5 preamp. It's very clear that Jason and Mike are excellent audio engineers.

Originally Posted by Dizzie

While there are exceptions, I do not think small companies selling direct necessarily offer good value. Product cycles can be short. Due to cash flow issues, they do not fully develop a product and then introduce updated models too frequently. These companies can go out of business quickly due to illness, death, divorce or financial issues. On another forum I am aware of at least 3 (I think 4) speaker builders who went out of business leaving their budget-conscious customers with orphan products and no support. Electronic component builders with no manufacturing equipment or serious real estate can easily go out of business. That is in sharp contrast to companies like Boulder, MSB, and Magico that have many millions invested in equipment and buildings.

My personal experience has been poor. I bought an Audio Mirror Tubadour DAC which was quickly replaced by two upgraded models. Now nobody wants to buy my DAC. During the same length of time I have owned a Bricasti DAC that is still a current model. It is a keeper but if I decide to upgrade I would definitely consider Bricasti again.

My last Memory Player from Laufer-Teknik was a Rube Goldberg created Frankenstein. It was the worst design I have ever seen. I had nothing but problems and when it bricked after less than a year I was left with a total financial loss. When Sam Laufer realized I would never buy another product from him he refused to make it right.

I asked another small builder of music servers what his plan of succession was. He responded he was usually asked technical questions and no one had ever asked about succession. He said he would get back to me. That was a couple of year ago and I never received a response. I ultimately bought an Aurender N20 and like it so much I will buy another Aurender for my 2nd system. There is value in a fully-developed product with good support from a company with deep pockets and a solid business model.

I asked a speaker builder what his plan of succession was and he told me orders were good. Kind of missed the point entirely.

Circling back to a brand mentioned earlier, LTA, this company might be one of the exceptions I alluded to. I am not sure what their depth of personnel is so I cannot speak to succession. I did own a Z10 integrated. It was under powered (13wpc) for the application I was using it in but it was one of the best sounding integrateds I have ever heard. Very musical and a joy to listen to. I loved the look and finish too. I hated to sell it but it did not fit my needs. Is it a good value at $4900?

I absolutely donÂ’t agree that small companies donÂ’t offer a great value. In my set there are components from small companies, they are dedicated, have a love for what they are building and sometimes use the best electronical parts available. My speakers for instance, they are build with capacitors costing alot to buy on the market. Not many factories are using these. And the transformer used is unique which no other company uses, actually it is a component from the army.

My country does have a lot of small audio builders, but it is really high end stuff, some of them discussed in one of the topics here on audioshark. think about Mola mola, sonnet, taiko, kemp, hypex, Pink Faun, bach, sbooster, siltech, farad, jk acoustics, dutch & dutch, vd hul and many more. small companies can produce top level audio.

To conclude: DonÂ’t judge your opinion too much on a reviewer. You need to listen yourself what is really high end. Go visit audioshows, and go to shops (suncoast audio) which have a huge choice to compare. Judge yourself and if it sounds well for you, then it is a good choice.

Originally Posted by NewAlkyogre

I absolutely donÂ’t agree that small companies donÂ’t offer a great value. In my set there are components from small companies, they are dedicated, have a love for what they are building and sometimes use the best electronical parts available. My speakers for instance, they are build with capacitors costing alot to buy on the market. Not many factories are using these. And the transformer used is unique which no other company uses, actually it is a component from the army.

My country does have a lot of small audio builders, but it is really high end stuff, some of them discussed in one of the topics here on audioshark. think about Mola mola, sonnet, taiko, kemp, hypex, Pink Faun, bach, sbooster, siltech, farad, jk acoustics, dutch & dutch, vd hul and many more. small companies can produce top level audio.

To conclude: DonÂ’t judge your opinion too much on a reviewer. You need to listen yourself what is really high end. Go visit audioshows, and go to shops (suncoast audio) which have a huge choice to compare. Judge yourself and if it sounds well for you, then it is a good choice.

Well said.

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

and


I'd like to see the data that supports these "hypotheses".

This certainly was not true of Henry Kloss of Advent, David Hafler of Dynaco and Hafler, nor is it true of Jason or Mike at Schiit Audio, or Danny at GR-Research, or Mads of Buchardt Speakers, or Sean Casey of Zu Loudspeakers. Anyone that says that Sean Casey doesn't know how to design and build a terrific loudspeaker is flat wrong, in my first-hand experience. He's one of the smartest and most innovative audio engineers I've ever met.

From the reviews I've seean of the LTA, that appears to be true for their products, as well.

Oh, and then there's these little "puppies"...the Amp Camp Amps.







Built with high-quality parts (Vishay metal-film resistors, caps, etc.) and run as bridged monos, particularly with fully-balanced XLR ICs, they're one of the finest amps I've ever heard. Of course they are, they're designed by...Nelson Pass. And, Nelson knows a thing or two about amp design, IIRC.

Mid-fi? Um...No.

They are sold direct at DIYAudio for a whopping $359/each for a kit.

BTW, Toyota Motor's CEO just announced two days ago they are going to only be selling to Direct to Consumers. Does that make the quality of their automobiles, which has been a benchmark for the automobile industry for over 40 years any lower?

Once again, I think the answer here is...No.

BTW, the Aurender N20 is a terrific product. Really enjoyed my time with it. Very good company.

With rare exceptions ( and there are exceptions ) most of what you listed are midfi - entry level hi-end ( barely) , the amp camp is a training thesis not worthy of hi-end nomenclature. Hafler products were hit and miss but some were a good platform for updated mods , no one would mistake them for hi-end anything stock..

So yea , i can see a startup direct deal being worthy , as it’s difficult to get a startup company into a top Dealer ..


Just saying ..!!


Regards