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    The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    In this video, Amir of Audio Science Review (ASR) explains his past career and what led to the formation of ASR. He also explains the testing process of electronics and speakers using his $200k of measurement equipment.

    What is Audio Science Review? | Amir of Audio Science Review Explains - YouTube
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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Oh shit. Here comes the firestorm!
    Marty

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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    ASR , Science for the deaf ....!

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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    The problem is that many of us are familiar with Amir and his biases, the most problematic of which is that he doesn't know when he is wrong. One glaring example was when he "measured" a whole bunch of different cables and found minimal differences (and drew the obvious conclusion), and then Colin Gabriel pointed out that he wasn't measuring long enough lengths of cable.

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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    $200K on measurement equipment. THAT'S his main hobby - measuring stuff and arguing online. Perhaps not so much audiophilia, nor music. I've spent the better part of 200 large in my system; it yields constant & enduring joy. Music sessions are the main event of each weekend, every weekend. I'm a subjectivist as it pertains to audio enjoyment.

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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    I like measurements, and even Amir in person is quite different than people probably think, but ASR basically comes down to Harman method/spinorama with DSP right, everyone else wrong. It's to the point now that confirmation bias comes in - if it measures well, they subjectively like it no matter what. See the Benchmark amps.

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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Amir definitely qualifies as a music lover and has an interest in good sound, but whether it's his engineering background or something else he has lost his way there.
    Rob
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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithR View Post
    ...
    I have disliked Revel speakers for 20 years, so what do I know.
    They do so many individual "things" right, but somehow end up not really sounding involving. One can admire them but not really like them (at least that is my feeling/opinion).
    Rob
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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Julian Hirsch lives again. I borrowed a couple of his top rated dac. Both Chinese. They might measure very well but were not high end sound quality.
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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Wait , what..! SQ ? amir cares not .....,

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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Amir definitely qualifies as a music lover and has an interest in good sound, but whether it's his engineering background or something else he has lost his way there.
    His engineering back ground lends nothing to the art of audio designing , any quick audio tech conversation with Amir exposes his lack of audio knowledge, so bench results he can provide audio insight not much...! ..

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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike B. View Post
    Julian Hirsch lives again. I borrowed a couple of his top rated dac. Both Chinese. They might measure very well but were not high end sound quality.
    Julian Hirsch actually knew what he was talking about, Amir is not at that Level .

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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    They do so many individual "things" right, but somehow end up not really sounding involving. One can admire them but not really like them (at least that is my feeling/opinion).
    Yep. To say personal sighted experience preferences with speakers can vary quite a bit (vs "trust ears/just listening") might be understating things.
    Audio Musings by Sean Olive: The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests
    AES E-Library >> The Influence of Hearing and Sight on the Perceptual Evaluation of Home Speaker Systems
    Ironically, Amir does no blind testing. In fact, he maximizes pre-bias by measuring first.
    Btw, it's my understanding one can drag their own speakers (within reason) to Harman and compare vs theirs or X. For a fee of course.
    Find what ones "ears/just listening" really prefers. YMMV.

    cheers,

    AJ

    ps kudos to Jason, building quite a library

  14. #14

    The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Yep. To say personal sighted experience preferences with speakers can vary quite a bit (vs "trust ears/just listening") might be understating things.
    Audio Musings by Sean Olive: The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests
    AES E-Library >> The Influence of Hearing and Sight on the Perceptual Evaluation of Home Speaker Systems
    Ironically, Amir does no blind testing. In fact, he maximizes pre-bias by measuring first.
    Btw, it's my understanding one can drag their own speakers (within reason) to Harman and compare vs theirs or X. For a fee of course.
    Find what ones "ears/just listening" really prefers. YMMV.

    cheers,

    AJ
    That article quotes J. Gordon Holt from an interview where he said:

    “Audio as a hobby is dying, largely by its own hand. As far as the real world is concerned, high-end audio lost its credibility during the 1980s, when it flatly refused to submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal. [This refusal] is a source of endless derisive amusement among rational people and of perpetual embarrassment for me because I am associated by so many people with the mess my disciples made of spreading my gospel. For the record: I never, ever claimed that measurements don't matter. What I said (and very often, at that) was, they don't always tell the whole story. Not quite the same thing.”

    Also from same article on the question if the high-end audio has lost its way, he says:

    “Since the only measure of sound quality is that the listener likes it, that has pretty well put an end to audio advancement, because different people rarely agree about sound quality. Abandoning the acoustical-instrument standard, and the mindless acceptance of voodoo science, were not parts of my original vision.”

    This can be surmised as: DBT do matter, measurements do matter, but at the end of the day “good" sound is whatever one likes. For many folks in this forum that means just trusting their ears (measurements and tests be darned); yet for others (including a growing number of younger audiophiles) it means using tests, measurements, and their ears.

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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)



    Stay safe everyone; measure well, balance right, listen from the soul, love the one you wish.
    Be free, be you, be universal peace. Fight for justice and equality and good sounding music.

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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    That article quotes J. Gordon Holt from an interview where he said:
    ...
    “For the record: I never, ever claimed that measurements don't matter. What I said (and very often, at that) was, they don't always tell the whole story. Not quite the same thing.”
    ...
    It is worth noting that Stereophile has continued to support this opinion
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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    It is worth noting that Stereophile has continued to support this opinion
    That’s true! See the latest VAC 170i IQ review. The reviewer loved it. The measurements were...uhhh...interesting. I LOVE it!!! It sound like Heaven.


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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Stereophile is one of the few hifi mags worthwhile IMO, as they cover all the bases , opinionated reviews typical of today , really mean nothing to me , how many , We plugged it in , the heavens opened and I’m sad to see it go can we read , thats pretty much it , they are not even providing or have great internal pics ( most dont ) nor can they be as entertaining as Fremer happens to be , so forget about it ...!

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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    I can see Amir writing for Stereophile...Measurement department...not in the music section.
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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthStar View Post
    I can see Amir writing for Stereophile...Measurement department...not in the music section.
    No.
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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)


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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    One thing is missing from measurements in determining how good a component is - each human’s brain and ears, and how the music subjectively sounds to each of us. Can’t measure that.

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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Quote Originally Posted by RDSChicago View Post
    One thing is missing from measurements in determining how good a component is - each human’s brain and ears, and how the music subjectively sounds to each of us. Can’t measure that.
    The underlying philosophy of Audio Science Review is that this is a red herring. If subjectivity is given free rein then everything (every component, speaker, etc) is good because one can almost always find someone who likes it at some point in time. Our goal should be to continue to strive for the "best" sound reproduction, i.e. as close to the original source (live music) as possible. ASR's error is in assuming that this goal can be defined and reached solely through measurements, but the opposite of that (that it can only be reached through subjective opinion) is equally or perhaps even more in error. JGH's and JA's approach is more reasonable for reviewers and probably for designers as well, and the acknowledged best in both fields appear to adhere to this (sorry, most TAS reviewers, this is why you should be put out to pasture)
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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    The underlying philosophy of Audio Science Review is that this is a red herring. If subjectivity is given free rein then everything (every component, speaker, etc) is good because one can almost always find someone who likes it at some point in time. Our goal should be to continue to strive for the "best" sound reproduction, i.e. as close to the original source (live music) as possible. ASR's error is in assuming that this goal can be defined and reached solely through measurements, but the opposite of that (that it can only be reached through subjective opinion) is equally or perhaps even more in error. JGH's and JA's approach is more reasonable for reviewers and probably for designers as well, and the acknowledged best in both fields appear to adhere to this (sorry, most TAS reviewers, this is why you should be put out to pasture)
    Generally agree with this. I stopped paying for TAS a couple of years ago (they still send it to me every month). I definitely prefer the subjective/objective approach employed by Stereophile and will be keeping that subscription. Plus, their writers are more entertaining IMO. I do this for entertainment after all.
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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Quote Originally Posted by MPW View Post
    Generally agree with this. I stopped paying for TAS a couple of years ago (they still send it to me every month). I definitely prefer the subjective/objective approach employed by Stereophile and will be keeping that subscription. Plus, their writers are more entertaining IMO. I do this for entertainment after all.
    HiFI News does some measurements, but I find their reviews a little “light” and their measurements minimal. They spend 90% of their review telling you about the company, the size, shape, the box, etc and two paragraphs about the sound. Their measurements are useful, but not as in-depth as John’s.


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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Quote Originally Posted by MPW View Post
    Generally agree with this. I stopped paying for TAS a couple of years ago (they still send it to me every month). I definitely prefer the subjective/objective approach employed by Stereophile and will be keeping that subscription. Plus, their writers are more entertaining IMO. I do this for entertainment after all.
    me too. cut TAS out 10 years ago and never have felt the need to return and read JV ramble on about his new super duper reference.

    on the other hand, I still love reading JA measurements of speakers and amps in his "retired" role
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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Quote Originally Posted by RDSChicago View Post
    One thing is missing from measurements in determining how good a component is - each human’s brain and ears, and how the music subjectively sounds to each of us.
    That is precisely, by definition, what a controlled/blind listening test is...and why it is the de facto standard of all audio/perceptual science. Ears/brain determine what sounds good via music.

    Quote Originally Posted by RDSChicago View Post
    Can’t measure that.
    Incorrect. That's what Dr Floyd Toole, Sean Olive, Jorma Salmi, Earl Geddes, et al do, determine what measurements correlate (component/speakers/distortions/etc) to "sounds good" to ears/brain. Unbeknown to audiophiles there is an entire field of science devoted to just that.
    The same science that knows very well that there are factors that overwhelm, past ears/brain.
    Audio Musings by Sean Olive: The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests
    AES E-Library >> The Influence of Hearing and Sight on the Perceptual Evaluation of Home Speaker Systems
    Marketing actions can modulate neural representations of experienced pleasantness | PNAS
    etc, etc.
    So what your ears/brain like is easily determined. What happens outside of that with 20+ other factors, not so much.

    cheers,

    AJ

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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    One problem with DBT's with regard to home audio systems is that it is nearly impossible to perform one in that setting. DBT's such as Harmon performs are useful in determining sonic preferences but not so useful in evaluating meaningful differences in components in a home system where there are so many other influences on the eventual sound quality of the system.
    Rob
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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Out of curiosity I took a look at some of ASR's DAC reviews. I'm not sure why even someone totally engineering (measurement) oriented would think that linearity and low noise and distortion are the only useful measurements for a DAC, much less the only determinants of its audio qualities?
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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    One problem with DBT's with regard to home audio systems is that it is nearly impossible to perform one in that setting.
    Speakers yes absolutely. Components, etc, no absolutely not. Those would be easily performed.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    DBT's such as Harmon performs are useful in determining sonic preferences but not so useful in evaluating meaningful differences in components in a home system where there are so many other influences on the eventual sound quality of the system.
    If by other influences you mean sight, belief, price, knowledge, etc. then yes.
    A DB listening test can only tell you what ears/brain detect, like, prefer, etc.
    It absolutely cannot tell what an uncontrolled, sighted "experience" will yield. The links I provided make that very clear.
    Hopefully I've made myself very clear, I don't advocate for blind listening test to determine what one will "experience", since I'm acutely aware of the differences. I actually advocate for buying whatever pleases you best, regardless of cost, measurements, etc, etc.
    I can only advise that some things wont play nice with each other, room, etc based on measurements. That doesn't mean someone wont like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Out of curiosity I took a look at some of ASR's DAC reviews. I'm not sure why even someone totally engineering (measurement) oriented would think that linearity and low noise and distortion are the only useful measurements for a DAC, much less the only determinants of its audio qualities?
    ASR does no valid listening tests. The "rankings", etc. are a joke.

    cheers,

    AJ

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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Start a measurement argument with a low power SET lover
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  32. #32
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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    The underlying philosophy of Audio Science Review is that this is a red herring. If subjectivity is given free rein then everything (every component, speaker, etc) is good because one can almost always find someone who likes it at some point in time. Our goal should be to continue to strive for the "best" sound reproduction, i.e. as close to the original source (live music) as possible. ASR's error is in assuming that this goal can be defined and reached solely through measurements, but the opposite of that (that it can only be reached through subjective opinion) is equally or perhaps even more in error. JGH's and JA's approach is more reasonable for reviewers and probably for designers as well, and the acknowledged best in both fields appear to adhere to this (sorry, most TAS reviewers, this is why you should be put out to pasture)
    Thanks, appreciate it.

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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    Thanks, appreciate it.
    Most is definitely not all, but unfortunately its highest profile writers tend to fall into this category...

    I don’t think you have made it to there yet
    Rob
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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    I have the highest regard for measurements and objectivity. But folks like Amir give objectivists a bad name.

    In Hindi we have a saying, "bandar ke haath mein bandook" which literally translates to "gun in the hands of a monkey". I find that it pretty accurately describes the mayhem that follows whatever Amir does at ASR.



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  35. #35

    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    Objectivity and measurements are important to me. But it is not everything. I also believe that BT are helpful in determining what is really important and what actually make a difference beyond somebody’s Subjective opinion.

  36. #36
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    Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)

    The music and the respect of all rigs, with the people in front ...

    * An audio measuring tool (Amir uses one) ... in the guts.
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