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March 19, 2021, 10:33 AM #1
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The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
In this video, Amir of Audio Science Review (ASR) explains his past career and what led to the formation of ASR. He also explains the testing process of electronics and speakers using his $200k of measurement equipment.
What is Audio Science Review? | Amir of Audio Science Review Explains - YouTube
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March 19, 2021, 10:40 AM #2
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
Oh shit. Here comes the firestorm!
Marty
Aurender N20 / SonicTransporter i7 / Roon
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March 19, 2021, 11:17 AM #3
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
ASR , Science for the deaf ....!
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March 19, 2021, 11:31 AM #4
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
The problem is that many of us are familiar with Amir and his biases, the most problematic of which is that he doesn't know when he is wrong. One glaring example was when he "measured" a whole bunch of different cables and found minimal differences (and drew the obvious conclusion), and then Colin Gabriel pointed out that he wasn't measuring long enough lengths of cable.
GIGO, regardless of what is in between.Rob
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March 19, 2021, 11:55 AM #5
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Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
$200K on measurement equipment. THAT'S his main hobby - measuring stuff and arguing online. Perhaps not so much audiophilia, nor music. I've spent the better part of 200 large in my system; it yields constant & enduring joy. Music sessions are the main event of each weekend, every weekend. I'm a subjectivist as it pertains to audio enjoyment.
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March 19, 2021, 01:17 PM #6
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Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
I like measurements, and even Amir in person is quite different than people probably think, but ASR basically comes down to Harman method/spinorama with DSP right, everyone else wrong. It's to the point now that confirmation bias comes in - if it measures well, they subjectively like it no matter what. See the Benchmark amps.
I have disliked Revel speakers for 20 years, so what do I know.Brinkmann Bardo w/ EMT HSD-006 cart, MSB Reference DAC --> Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL --> Ampzilla 2000, 2nd Edition --> Fyne Audio F1-12
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March 19, 2021, 02:56 PM #7
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
Amir definitely qualifies as a music lover and has an interest in good sound, but whether it's his engineering background or something else he has lost his way there.
Rob
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Tascam BR-20; Technics 1506 with tape path upgrades, FM head, DeHavilland 222 tape head pre; Modwright Oppo 205 full tube mod w/LPS; Euphony Summus server, EtherRegen, HDPLEX LPS; MSB Discrete DAC (dual PS, ISLPro, balanced out); Pass Labs XP-12, XA60.8 (pair); Daedalus Audio Apollo 11’s, VMPS Larger Sub; Daedalus/Wywires, Acoustic Zen, Sablon Audio, Wireworld, Shunyata Research cables; Core Power Equi=Power;
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March 19, 2021, 02:57 PM #8
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
Rob
__________________________
Tascam BR-20; Technics 1506 with tape path upgrades, FM head, DeHavilland 222 tape head pre; Modwright Oppo 205 full tube mod w/LPS; Euphony Summus server, EtherRegen, HDPLEX LPS; MSB Discrete DAC (dual PS, ISLPro, balanced out); Pass Labs XP-12, XA60.8 (pair); Daedalus Audio Apollo 11’s, VMPS Larger Sub; Daedalus/Wywires, Acoustic Zen, Sablon Audio, Wireworld, Shunyata Research cables; Core Power Equi=Power;
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March 19, 2021, 03:56 PM #9
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Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
Julian Hirsch lives again. I borrowed a couple of his top rated dac. Both Chinese. They might measure very well but were not high end sound quality.
Main System: Analog - Linn LP12, Origin Live DC motor and Controller, SME V arm, Benz Ruby H 2 cartridge, Wright Sound preamp. Digital - Intel NUC I-7, 16 gig ram, Jriver media center 24, Wyrd4 Sound 2V2 SE Dac, Fathom Hard Drives.
H-Cat Version 9 preamp, ARC Reference 75 amp, Custom line source speakers - 10 SB Acoustics midwoofers, 10 Fountek ribbon tweeters. JL Audio Fathom f112 Subs
Wire - T G Audio, Shunyata, Synergistic Research , Audioquest, Lewis silver foil, Duelund, Transparent.
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March 19, 2021, 04:29 PM #10
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
Wait , what..! SQ ? amir cares not .....,
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March 19, 2021, 04:32 PM #11
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
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March 19, 2021, 04:33 PM #12
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March 20, 2021, 08:23 AM #13
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
Yep. To say personal sighted experience preferences with speakers can vary quite a bit (vs "trust ears/just listening") might be understating things.
Audio Musings by Sean Olive: The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests
AES E-Library >> The Influence of Hearing and Sight on the Perceptual Evaluation of Home Speaker Systems
Ironically, Amir does no blind testing. In fact, he maximizes pre-bias by measuring first.
Btw, it's my understanding one can drag their own speakers (within reason) to Harman and compare vs theirs or X. For a fee of course.
Find what ones "ears/just listening" really prefers. YMMV.
cheers,
AJ
ps kudos to Jason, building quite a library
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March 20, 2021, 01:09 PM #14
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The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
That article quotes J. Gordon Holt from an interview where he said:
“Audio as a hobby is dying, largely by its own hand. As far as the real world is concerned, high-end audio lost its credibility during the 1980s, when it flatly refused to submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal. [This refusal] is a source of endless derisive amusement among rational people and of perpetual embarrassment for me because I am associated by so many people with the mess my disciples made of spreading my gospel. For the record: I never, ever claimed that measurements don't matter. What I said (and very often, at that) was, they don't always tell the whole story. Not quite the same thing.”
Also from same article on the question if the high-end audio has lost its way, he says:
“Since the only measure of sound quality is that the listener likes it, that has pretty well put an end to audio advancement, because different people rarely agree about sound quality. Abandoning the acoustical-instrument standard, and the mindless acceptance of voodoo science, were not parts of my original vision.”
This can be surmised as: DBT do matter, measurements do matter, but at the end of the day “good" sound is whatever one likes. For many folks in this forum that means just trusting their ears (measurements and tests be darned); yet for others (including a growing number of younger audiophiles) it means using tests, measurements, and their ears.
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March 20, 2021, 02:53 PM #15
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
Stay safe everyone; measure well, balance right, listen from the soul, love the one you wish.
Be free, be you, be universal peace. Fight for justice and equality and good sounding music.
Happy Spring ...follow the rainbow ...
Hear from the heart, noise- free.~ Bob ~
"And it Stoned me to my Soul" • Van Morrison
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Snoopy as the Red Baron attack
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March 20, 2021, 07:13 PM #16
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
Rob
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Tascam BR-20; Technics 1506 with tape path upgrades, FM head, DeHavilland 222 tape head pre; Modwright Oppo 205 full tube mod w/LPS; Euphony Summus server, EtherRegen, HDPLEX LPS; MSB Discrete DAC (dual PS, ISLPro, balanced out); Pass Labs XP-12, XA60.8 (pair); Daedalus Audio Apollo 11’s, VMPS Larger Sub; Daedalus/Wywires, Acoustic Zen, Sablon Audio, Wireworld, Shunyata Research cables; Core Power Equi=Power;
Adona rack, Stillpoints, IsoPods, ASC, GIK Acoustics accessories
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March 20, 2021, 07:17 PM #17
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
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March 20, 2021, 09:31 PM #18
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
Stereophile is one of the few hifi mags worthwhile IMO, as they cover all the bases , opinionated reviews typical of today , really mean nothing to me , how many , We plugged it in , the heavens opened and I’m sad to see it go can we read , thats pretty much it , they are not even providing or have great internal pics ( most dont ) nor can they be as entertaining as Fremer happens to be , so forget about it ...!
Stereophile Rules ...!
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March 20, 2021, 11:55 PM #19
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
I can see Amir writing for Stereophile...Measurement department...not in the music section.
~ Bob ~
"And it Stoned me to my Soul" • Van Morrison
Click ♪ Audiophile Audition
Snoopy as the Red Baron attack
Avatar = The Alan Parsons Project - Eye in the Sky (1982 - orbiting)
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March 21, 2021, 08:30 AM #20
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
Rob
__________________________
Tascam BR-20; Technics 1506 with tape path upgrades, FM head, DeHavilland 222 tape head pre; Modwright Oppo 205 full tube mod w/LPS; Euphony Summus server, EtherRegen, HDPLEX LPS; MSB Discrete DAC (dual PS, ISLPro, balanced out); Pass Labs XP-12, XA60.8 (pair); Daedalus Audio Apollo 11’s, VMPS Larger Sub; Daedalus/Wywires, Acoustic Zen, Sablon Audio, Wireworld, Shunyata Research cables; Core Power Equi=Power;
Adona rack, Stillpoints, IsoPods, ASC, GIK Acoustics accessories
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March 21, 2021, 08:38 AM #21
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
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March 21, 2021, 09:37 AM #22
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Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
One thing is missing from measurements in determining how good a component is - each human’s brain and ears, and how the music subjectively sounds to each of us. Can’t measure that.
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March 21, 2021, 10:35 AM #23
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
The underlying philosophy of Audio Science Review is that this is a red herring. If subjectivity is given free rein then everything (every component, speaker, etc) is good because one can almost always find someone who likes it at some point in time. Our goal should be to continue to strive for the "best" sound reproduction, i.e. as close to the original source (live music) as possible. ASR's error is in assuming that this goal can be defined and reached solely through measurements, but the opposite of that (that it can only be reached through subjective opinion) is equally or perhaps even more in error. JGH's and JA's approach is more reasonable for reviewers and probably for designers as well, and the acknowledged best in both fields appear to adhere to this (sorry, most TAS reviewers, this is why you should be put out to pasture)
Rob
__________________________
Tascam BR-20; Technics 1506 with tape path upgrades, FM head, DeHavilland 222 tape head pre; Modwright Oppo 205 full tube mod w/LPS; Euphony Summus server, EtherRegen, HDPLEX LPS; MSB Discrete DAC (dual PS, ISLPro, balanced out); Pass Labs XP-12, XA60.8 (pair); Daedalus Audio Apollo 11’s, VMPS Larger Sub; Daedalus/Wywires, Acoustic Zen, Sablon Audio, Wireworld, Shunyata Research cables; Core Power Equi=Power;
Adona rack, Stillpoints, IsoPods, ASC, GIK Acoustics accessories
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March 21, 2021, 11:09 AM #24
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
Generally agree with this. I stopped paying for TAS a couple of years ago (they still send it to me every month). I definitely prefer the subjective/objective approach employed by Stereophile and will be keeping that subscription. Plus, their writers are more entertaining IMO. I do this for entertainment after all.
Morgan
NEW SYSTEM UNDER CONSTRUCTION
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March 21, 2021, 11:41 AM #25
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
HiFI News does some measurements, but I find their reviews a little “light” and their measurements minimal. They spend 90% of their review telling you about the company, the size, shape, the box, etc and two paragraphs about the sound. Their measurements are useful, but not as in-depth as John’s.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ProMy Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
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March 21, 2021, 11:48 AM #26
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Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
Brinkmann Bardo w/ EMT HSD-006 cart, MSB Reference DAC --> Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL --> Ampzilla 2000, 2nd Edition --> Fyne Audio F1-12
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March 21, 2021, 12:30 PM #27
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
That is precisely, by definition, what a controlled/blind listening test is...and why it is the de facto standard of all audio/perceptual science. Ears/brain determine what sounds good via music.
Incorrect. That's what Dr Floyd Toole, Sean Olive, Jorma Salmi, Earl Geddes, et al do, determine what measurements correlate (component/speakers/distortions/etc) to "sounds good" to ears/brain. Unbeknown to audiophiles there is an entire field of science devoted to just that.
The same science that knows very well that there are factors that overwhelm, past ears/brain.
Audio Musings by Sean Olive: The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests
AES E-Library >> The Influence of Hearing and Sight on the Perceptual Evaluation of Home Speaker Systems
Marketing actions can modulate neural representations of experienced pleasantness | PNAS
etc, etc.
So what your ears/brain like is easily determined. What happens outside of that with 20+ other factors, not so much.
cheers,
AJ
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March 21, 2021, 12:40 PM #28
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
One problem with DBT's with regard to home audio systems is that it is nearly impossible to perform one in that setting. DBT's such as Harmon performs are useful in determining sonic preferences but not so useful in evaluating meaningful differences in components in a home system where there are so many other influences on the eventual sound quality of the system.
Rob
__________________________
Tascam BR-20; Technics 1506 with tape path upgrades, FM head, DeHavilland 222 tape head pre; Modwright Oppo 205 full tube mod w/LPS; Euphony Summus server, EtherRegen, HDPLEX LPS; MSB Discrete DAC (dual PS, ISLPro, balanced out); Pass Labs XP-12, XA60.8 (pair); Daedalus Audio Apollo 11’s, VMPS Larger Sub; Daedalus/Wywires, Acoustic Zen, Sablon Audio, Wireworld, Shunyata Research cables; Core Power Equi=Power;
Adona rack, Stillpoints, IsoPods, ASC, GIK Acoustics accessories
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March 21, 2021, 12:45 PM #29
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
Out of curiosity I took a look at some of ASR's DAC reviews. I'm not sure why even someone totally engineering (measurement) oriented would think that linearity and low noise and distortion are the only useful measurements for a DAC, much less the only determinants of its audio qualities?
Rob
__________________________
Tascam BR-20; Technics 1506 with tape path upgrades, FM head, DeHavilland 222 tape head pre; Modwright Oppo 205 full tube mod w/LPS; Euphony Summus server, EtherRegen, HDPLEX LPS; MSB Discrete DAC (dual PS, ISLPro, balanced out); Pass Labs XP-12, XA60.8 (pair); Daedalus Audio Apollo 11’s, VMPS Larger Sub; Daedalus/Wywires, Acoustic Zen, Sablon Audio, Wireworld, Shunyata Research cables; Core Power Equi=Power;
Adona rack, Stillpoints, IsoPods, ASC, GIK Acoustics accessories
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March 21, 2021, 01:26 PM #30
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
Speakers yes absolutely. Components, etc, no absolutely not. Those would be easily performed.
If by other influences you mean sight, belief, price, knowledge, etc. then yes.
A DB listening test can only tell you what ears/brain detect, like, prefer, etc.
It absolutely cannot tell what an uncontrolled, sighted "experience" will yield. The links I provided make that very clear.
Hopefully I've made myself very clear, I don't advocate for blind listening test to determine what one will "experience", since I'm acutely aware of the differences. I actually advocate for buying whatever pleases you best, regardless of cost, measurements, etc, etc.
I can only advise that some things wont play nice with each other, room, etc based on measurements. That doesn't mean someone wont like it.
ASR does no valid listening tests. The "rankings", etc. are a joke.
cheers,
AJ
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March 30, 2021, 01:14 PM #31
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Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
Start a measurement argument with a low power SET lover
Main System: Analog - Linn LP12, Origin Live DC motor and Controller, SME V arm, Benz Ruby H 2 cartridge, Wright Sound preamp. Digital - Intel NUC I-7, 16 gig ram, Jriver media center 24, Wyrd4 Sound 2V2 SE Dac, Fathom Hard Drives.
H-Cat Version 9 preamp, ARC Reference 75 amp, Custom line source speakers - 10 SB Acoustics midwoofers, 10 Fountek ribbon tweeters. JL Audio Fathom f112 Subs
Wire - T G Audio, Shunyata, Synergistic Research , Audioquest, Lewis silver foil, Duelund, Transparent.
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March 30, 2021, 05:33 PM #32
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March 30, 2021, 05:42 PM #33
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
Rob
__________________________
Tascam BR-20; Technics 1506 with tape path upgrades, FM head, DeHavilland 222 tape head pre; Modwright Oppo 205 full tube mod w/LPS; Euphony Summus server, EtherRegen, HDPLEX LPS; MSB Discrete DAC (dual PS, ISLPro, balanced out); Pass Labs XP-12, XA60.8 (pair); Daedalus Audio Apollo 11’s, VMPS Larger Sub; Daedalus/Wywires, Acoustic Zen, Sablon Audio, Wireworld, Shunyata Research cables; Core Power Equi=Power;
Adona rack, Stillpoints, IsoPods, ASC, GIK Acoustics accessories
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March 31, 2021, 03:10 AM #34
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
I have the highest regard for measurements and objectivity. But folks like Amir give objectivists a bad name.
In Hindi we have a saying, "bandar ke haath mein bandook" which literally translates to "gun in the hands of a monkey". I find that it pretty accurately describes the mayhem that follows whatever Amir does at ASR.
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Custom Win10 Transport | Mutec MC-3+ USB | Lampizator Amber | Acoustic Portrait Thiyaga | ATC SCM20PSL + JL Audio E-Sub e110
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March 31, 2021, 09:14 AM #35
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Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
Objectivity and measurements are important to me. But it is not everything. I also believe that BT are helpful in determining what is really important and what actually make a difference beyond somebody’s Subjective opinion.
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March 31, 2021, 02:34 PM #36
Re: The Intellectual People Podcast - Amir from Audio Science Review (ASR)
The music and the respect of all rigs, with the people in front ...
* An audio measuring tool (Amir uses one) ... in the guts.
Archimago's Musings: A look IN the Audio Precision APx555 B-Series. Thoughts on price and value in audio products.~ Bob ~
"And it Stoned me to my Soul" • Van Morrison
Click ♪ Audiophile Audition
Snoopy as the Red Baron attack
Avatar = The Alan Parsons Project - Eye in the Sky (1982 - orbiting)
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Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.
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AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.
The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.
At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.
We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!
Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com
Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.
Sincerely,
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