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  1. #1
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    I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    A call out to Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers everywhere:


    I Call Out Stealth Audio. #hifi #audiophile #hifiaudio - YouTube
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    After watching most of the video I have no idea why you titled it what you did unless to get more people to click on it, the title is unrelated to the video. Hopefully others will watch as to not get the wrong idea. As for me I'd never apologize to cable deniers. I'm sure not all cables do what they claim but for those to mislead others based on nothing but suspicion is unforgiveable. All I can tell people is to try for yourself, once you know, you know. Let the deniers keep clanging.

    Also, as a side note, we all like what we like but the Pass Int 250 has been a TAS editor choice of the year for about 3 straight years now, so time for you to let it go. There are people here who listened to both Lux and Pass and walked out with Pass. In my opinion it gives you no more clout to keep mentioning you didn't like it. Just the opposite.
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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    After watching most of the video I have no idea why you titled it what you did unless to get more people to click on it, the title is unrelated to the video. Hopefully others will watch as to not get the wrong idea. As for me I'd never apologize to cable deniers. I'm sure not all cables do what they claim but for those to mislead others based on nothing but suspicion is unforgiveable. All I can tell people is to try for yourself, once you know, you know. Let the deniers keep clanging.

    Also, as a side note, we all like what we like but the Pass Int 250 has been a TAS editor choice of the year for about 3 straight years now, so time for you to let it go. There are people here who listened to both Lux and Pass and walked out with Pass. In my opinion it gives you no more clout to keep mentioning you didn't like it. Just the opposite.
    Hi - you must have missed the part of the video where I apologized.

    Also, I didn't realize opinions had a shelf life before you expect people to let them go. Can you please let me know how long people are allowed to have opinions before you expect them to let them go?

    I have over 1,000 new subscribers since the Pass video, so many of them didn't know about that vid or how I felt about it. It's not all about you. I used it as an example that I say what I think even if it's not popular and I take heat for it - much like from you for me having a different opinion than you. And the fact that others buy the Pass as you describe MUST mean I am wrong. I mean, they must know better than me what works in my system, right? LOL

    As I clearly stated in the video it a fantastic amp, many people love that amp, but it didn't jell in my system and as I tell everyone I'm sure it was a system synergy issue. I didn't realize if TAS likes something, no one else is allowed to hold a different opinion as you suggest. Besides, who cares what anyone else thinks about something? I only care if I like a component. Not sure how I could have been more clear with my comments on the vid but you must have missed that part as well.

    You clearly missed much in the video to come post this, But thanks for watching the vid! .
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

  4. #4

    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    You still titled it that way to get clicks and that was the point.
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  5. #5
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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    It's not your opinion, keep it as long as you live, it has become your shtick, I see it here and now in your videos, it's old, that's why I say let it go. And it that's all you have to show that you are a reviewer of your word, sad. Nice try to justify but you clearly missed my point. I own neither amp and have no preference. Since you felt compelled to let your 1,000 new subscribers know you didn't prefer the Pass I guess that's your way of saying you feel you need all your followers to know and you'll never stop using your listening session as an example in the case you should happen to gain more subscribers. Please, don't flatter yourself, there's no heat here regarding your "opinion" of amps, as I stated I have neither nor a preference. I really think you make too much of your choice in amps, that what it was a choice. You listened to two, one had to go, simple. You try to make that a badge of honor of some sort.

    As far as watching the entire video, you and most YouTubers should learn to get to the point. I mean your build up lost me I was just interested in seeing what's up with the cable. As an example, maybe just mention your stuttering thing once opposed to the several times that you did.

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Hi - you must have missed the part of the video where I apologized.

    Also, I didn't realize opinions had a shelf life before you expect people to let them go. Can you please let me know how long people are allowed to have opinions before you expect them to let them go?

    I have over 1,000 new subscribers since the Pass video, so many of them didn't know about that vid or how I felt about it. It's not all about you. I used it as an example that I say what I think even if it's not popular and I take heat for it - much like from you for me having a different opinion than you. And the fact that others buy the Pass as you describe MUST mean I am wrong. I mean, they must know better than me what works in my system, right? LOL

    As I clearly stated in the video it a fantastic amp, many people love that amp, but it didn't jell in my system and as I tell everyone I'm sure it was a system synergy issue. I didn't realize if TAS likes something, no one else is allowed to hold a different opinion as you suggest. Besides, who cares what anyone else thinks about something? I only care if I like a component. Not sure how I could have been more clear with my comments on the vid but you must have missed that part as well.

    You clearly missed much in the video to come post this, But thanks for watching the vid! .
    Aurender ACS10 w/Audioquest Diamond USB, Esoteric N05xd
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  6. #6
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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    I have multiple sources and tried many cables, optical spdif, usb. The differences are subtile at maximum, or sometimes for me inaudible.

    If someone is saying that when changing a usb cable it sounds like having other speakers then the cable is wrong. In that case its adds something that is not original.

    A good cable does not make sound quality better, but it minimizes the loss in quality. This is not a unique cable, it is just a copper alloy with some shielding, like other brands also do and there is no way that can improve SQ.

  7. #7
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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    It's not your opinion, keep it as long as you live, it has become your shtick, I see it here and now in your videos, it's old, that's why I say let it go. And it that's all you have to show that you are a reviewer of your word, sad. Nice try to justify but you clearly missed my point. I own neither amp and have no preference. Since you felt compelled to let your 1,000 new subscribers know you didn't prefer the Pass I guess that's your way of saying you feel you need all your followers to know and you'll never stop using your listening session as an example in the case you should happen to gain more subscribers. Please, don't flatter yourself, there's no heat here regarding your "opinion" of amps, as I stated I have neither nor a preference. I really think you make too much of your choice in amps, that what it was a choice. You listened to two, one had to go, simple. You try to make that a badge of honor of some sort.

    As far as watching the entire video, you and most YouTubers should learn to get to the point. I mean your build up lost me I was just interested in seeing what's up with the cable. As an example, maybe just mention your stuttering thing once opposed to the several times that you did.


    LOL. My schtick? You're nuts, man. Absolutely totally nuts. You need to relax - it's just a video. In fact based on your posts it may be better for you just to stop watching YouTube. LOL
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

  8. #8
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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    When going from a stock printer type USB and inserting an Audio Quest Diamond the improvement was dramatic, not subtle. Saying whether the AQ improved the sound quality or the stock cable degraded is semantic, bottom line the sound quality was much better.

    I have heard differences when comparing one quality cable to another but those are more subtle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkyogre View Post
    I have multiple sources and tried many cables, optical spdif, usb. The differences are subtile at maximum, or sometimes for me inaudible.

    If someone is saying that when changing a usb cable it sounds like having other speakers then the cable is wrong. In that case its adds something that is not original.

    A good cable does not make sound quality better, but it minimizes the loss in quality. This is not a unique cable, it is just a copper alloy with some shielding, like other brands also do and there is no way that can improve SQ.
    Aurender ACS10 w/Audioquest Diamond USB, Esoteric N05xd
    Mark Levinson #526, 534 & JBL 4367's
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    SVS PC13 Ultra
    Transparent, Analysis Plus & Tributaries. PS Audio filtering
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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    I don’t say that there aren’t quality differences in cables oh no.

    But what i am saying is that if someone posts that it is like having other speakers then the cables must have altered something, and in that case I look further for something else.

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkyogre View Post
    I don’t say that there aren’t quality differences in cables oh no.

    But what i am saying is that if someone posts that it is like having other speakers then the cables must have altered something, and in that case I look further for something else.
    You may want to educate yourself on what the adjustable collar on the Stealth does as I explained that in past videos. . Especially with your demonstrable false statement of "This is not a unique cable, it is just a copper alloy".

    Been awhile since I heard that old argument of "your other cable must be broken". Made me laugh.

    You also state "The differences are subtile at maximum". That's typically the stance of someone with poor hearing, poor system set up, or just a mediocre system. I will give you guys credit thought, you continually put your foot in your mouth by trying to tell others what they can and can't hear regardless of reality.
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    I have found that major sonic benefits can come from what can be perceived as small changes.

    For example my MSB DAC is very sensitive to the power source. It sounds good either way, but get it right and the difference is profound and yes it sounds like the speakers are performing far better.

    Every system and situation is different and getting everything optimized turns good sound into amazing sound.
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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    A call out to Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers everywhere:


    I Call Out Stealth Audio. #hifi #audiophile #hifiaudio - YouTube
    Hookay.

    Unfortunately your video is pretty much indistinguishable from countless personal testaments to pseudoscience. (Which doesn't entail that the cable IS pseudoscience and doesn't alter the sound: only that you provide nothing beyond mere anecdote...and no particular technical plausibility...for your claims).

    So, it will be only persuasive to folks who already believe the type of things you believe, for the same type of reasons.

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by MattHooper View Post
    Hookay.

    Unfortunately your video is pretty much indistinguishable from countless personal testaments to pseudoscience. (Which doesn't entail that the cable IS pseudoscience and doesn't alter the sound: only that you provide nothing beyond mere anecdote...and no particular technical plausibility...for your claims).

    So, it will be only persuasive to folks who already believe the type of things you believe, for the same type of reasons.
    LOL. FYI most people here actually use their ears. But thanks for watching the vid. . I love it when cable deniers watch videos on cables and torture themselves.
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    You are clearly on the wrong forum. People here actually use their ears.
    for the record Michael, they do on the other forums as well !
    Cheers ! …. Dave

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
    for the record Michael, they do on the other forums as well !
    Hey Dave - Definitely true. I've found (in a positive way) this forum seems to have a higher number of people who actually listen with their ears vs. the unhappy cable deniers that seem to rule the roost on other forums (though certainly not all forums).
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    LOL. I think your friend Amir is waiting to hang out. You are clearly on the wrong forum. People here actually use their ears. But thanks for watching the vid.
    That's a tired, inaccurate cliche. Amir listens. So do I. So do most people on his forum.

    In fact I have a hunch I have often tested my ears more stringently than you have in evaluating some gear. I've actually tested myself *only* using my ears, not my eyes, no peeking. (In other words, controlling for sighted bias). I'm not suggesting that you have to or should bother blind testing anything at all. I don't blind test everything and the hobby is fun either way. BUT....If you want to talk "using your ears" that's when the rubber hits the road, and you can't cheat by knowing what you are listening to. (It's not for nothing that if you really want to get an accurate picture of what you can hear, you go to an audiologist and it will be a blind test).

    I also gave your site some other clicks, looking at a few videos. I appreciated for instance your tour of an audio store. It's always nice to have a virtual visit to those places (I enjoy audio stores, too bad there are so few now!). Though the amount of emphasis put on the cabling started to feel bizarre, almost obsessive, including the constant graphics pointing to "Stealth Cables." Did I miss something and you are a dealer for those cables? Or are you just a fan?

    Another thing that stuck out was your video on Ignore Hi-Fi Reviewers. I certainly think you made some fair points about different hearing, different rooms etc. (Though I don't think those are in the end total obstacles to a subjective review being informative and useful).

    However you made some common, dubious remarks about measurements. For instance:

    "If someone tells me that measurements are going to tell them how something sounds, I think that's completely ridiculous."

    That seems to translate to "I don't understand how measurements correlate to sound...so neither does anyone else."

    It's hard to take another charitable inference especially when you follow up with...

    "There is no way that the frequency response of a speaker is going to tell you about the tonality of a speaker..."

    ...which is very strange. Of course frequency response variations help decide the tonality of a speaker...as it does everything else!
    How could it not? If a speaker is mostly flat but has a 4dB rise from 4K onward, it's going to indicate some added brightness, other things being equal, vs a speaker without that rise.

    I work in pro sound, post production, and if I, or any of the mixers, had no idea of the sonic consequences of different frequency profiles, we would not be able to quickly and constructively use EQ to fix or modify the sound! It would just be random tiddling of knobs "hey, I wonder what this will do?" No...the sonic effects of various peaks and dips in frequency response are something you can learn, and are well known in mixing. Have a look:

    https://g05.bimmerpost.com/forums/at...9&d=1631366831

    There is no magic dividing line between predicting the sonic consequences of adjusting frequency response (heard through speakers!) vs the sonic consequences of different frequency profiles a speaker would impose on the sound. There *are* other things to consider, such as off axis frequency response, but that too is quite well studied. As Floyd Toole has cited from careful research, frequency response is a very powerful tool, and can also tell you if there are audible resonances etc in loudspeakers.

    Now, you may not care about measurements...nobody has to care. But to project upon others that they can't predict some salient characteristics from measurements is a mistake. (And it can also be predicted from measurements what YOU will hear. For instance, with low enough distortion, it can be predicted you will not hear differences between A and B components...)

    And you also said this:

    "But don't try and correlate pure measurements with how something is purely going to sound."


    Why in the world not? What do you think audio engineering is about? The history of audio, and it's advancement, is that of understand how sound works on a technical/scientific level, by correlating what can be engineered and measured to the sonic consequences. That's how it has progressed...not by shamanic rituals or inferences from dreams or feelings or whatever.

    This is why, as I said, your video(s) have some of the character of pseudo-scientific (or perhaps even anti-scientific) thinking.

    Cheers.

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by MattHooper View Post
    That's a tired, inaccurate cliche. Amir listens. So do I. So do most people on his forum.

    In fact I have a hunch I have often tested my ears more stringently than you have in evaluating some gear. I've actually tested myself *only* using my ears, not my eyes, no peeking. (In other words, controlling for sighted bias). I'm not suggesting that you have to or should bother blind testing anything at all. I don't blind test everything and the hobby is fun either way. BUT....If you want to talk "using your ears" that's when the rubber hits the road, and you can't cheat by knowing what you are listening to. (It's not for nothing that if you really want to get an accurate picture of what you can hear, you go to an audiologist and it will be a blind test).

    I also gave your site some other clicks, looking at a few videos. I appreciated for instance your tour of an audio store. It's always nice to have a virtual visit to those places (I enjoy audio stores, too bad there are so few now!). Though the amount of emphasis put on the cabling started to feel bizarre, almost obsessive, including the constant graphics pointing to "Stealth Cables." Did I miss something and you are a dealer for those cables? Or are you just a fan?

    Another thing that stuck out was your video on Ignore Hi-Fi Reviewers. I certainly think you made some fair points about different hearing, different rooms etc. (Though I don't think those are in the end total obstacles to a subjective review being informative and useful).

    However you made some common, dubious remarks about measurements. It's very common for technically naive audiophiles to project their own ignorance. For instance:

    "If someone tells me that measurements are going to tell them how something sounds, I think that's completely ridiculous."

    That seems to translate to "I don't understand how measurements correlate to sound...so neither does anyone else."

    It's hard to take another charitable inference especially when you follow up with...

    "There is no way that the frequency response of a speaker is going to tell you about the tonality of a speaker..."

    ...which is very strange. Of course frequency response variations help decide the tonality of a speaker...as it does everything else!
    How could it not? If a speaker is mostly flat but has a 4dB rise from 4K onward, it's going to indicate some added brightness, other things being equal, vs a speaker without that rise.

    I work in pro sound, post production, and if I, or any of the mixers, had no idea of the sonic consequences of different frequency profiles, we would not be able to quickly and constructively use EQ to fix or modify the sound! It would just be random tiddling of knobs "hey, I wonder what this will do?" No...the sonic effects of various peaks and dips in frequency response are something you can learn, and are well known in mixing. Have a look:

    https://g05.bimmerpost.com/forums/at...9&d=1631366831

    There is no magic dividing line between predicting the sonic consequences of adjusting frequency response (heard through speakers!) vs the sonic consequences of different frequency profiles a speaker would impose on the sound. There *are* other things to consider, such as off axis frequency response, but that too is quite well studied. As Floyd Toole has cited from careful research, frequency response is a very powerful tool, and can also tell you if there are audible resonances etc in loudspeakers.

    Now, you may not care about measurements...nobody has to care. But to project upon others that they can't predict some salient characteristics from measurements is a mistake. (And it can also be predicted from measurements what YOU will hear. For instance, with low enough distortion, it can be predicted you will not hear differences between A and B components...)

    And you also said this:

    "But don't try and correlate pure measurements with how something is purely going to sound."


    Why in the world not? What do you think audio engineering is about? The history of audio, and it's advancement, is that of understand how sound works on a technical/scientific level, by correlating what can be engineered and measured to the sonic consequences. That's how it has progressed...not by shamanic rituals or inferences from dreams or feelings or whatever.

    This is why, as I said, your video(s) have some of the character of pseudo-scientific (or perhaps even anti-scientific) thinking.

    Cheers.
    Holy crap, did you really just waste 30 minutes of your life typing all that??? LOL.

    Sure. What ever you say. I'm sure you're right even though I didn't bother to read it.

    I have the best instruments in the world and the ONLY ones that matter - my own ears.

    Excuse me while I go listen to music and not useless measurements.
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Holy crap, did you really just waste 30 minutes of your life typing all that??? LOL.

    Sure. What ever you say. I'm sure you're right even though I didn't bother to read it.
    So you have a video channel, and someone actually watches some of your videos, and takes the time to write about what he sees as positives and negatives in what you said....and it's "LOL, Didn't Read."

    Classy.

    I could have said "LOL, didn't watch" at the beginning of any of your vids, but I kept watching to make sure I was getting the gist of your views.

    Personally, if I had a channel and someone watched my vids, taking the time to respond - pro and con - to some of what I said on the vid, I'd be interested and likely wish to interact with the critique. After all, that person felt the video was worth commenting on at some length. But, then, some have a "just looking for clicks on my vid" mentality that many people develop on youtube.


    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    I have the best instruments in the world and the ONLY ones that matter - my own ears.
    One might ask, if our senses were the "best instruments in the world..." why do we build instruments? (Hint: it was the limitations of our senses in scope and reliability, that compelled engineers and scientists to develop tools that could measure things we can't hear/see etc, and with more reliability).

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Excuse me while I go listen to music and not useless measurements.
    Tools are always useless to those who don't know how to use them. But, that's nothing new.

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by MattHooper View Post
    So you have a video channel, and someone actually watches some of your videos, and takes the time to write about what he sees as positives and negatives in what you said....and it's "LOL, Didn't Read."

    Classy.

    I could have said "LOL, didn't watch" at the beginning of any of your vids, but I kept watching to make sure I was getting the gist of your views.

    Personally, if I had a channel and someone watched my vids, taking the time to respond - pro and con - to some of what I said on the vid, I'd be interested and likely wish to interact with the critique. After all, that person felt the video was worth commenting on at some length. But, then, some have a "just looking for clicks on my vid" mentality that many people develop on youtube.




    One might ask, if our senses were the "best instruments in the world..." why do we build instruments? (Hint: it was the limitations of our senses in scope and reliability, that compelled engineers and scientists to develop tools that could measure things we can't hear/see etc, and with more reliability).



    Tools are always useless to those who don't know how to use them. But, that's nothing new.
    You watched my vid and you posted:

    "Unfortunately your video is pretty much indistinguishable from countless personal testaments to pseudoscience. (Which doesn't entail that the cable IS pseudoscience and doesn't alter the sound: only that you provide nothing beyond mere anecdote...and no particular technical plausibility...for your claims). So, it will be only persuasive to folks who already believe the type of things you believe, for the same type of reasons."

    Then I know all about you I need to.

    Frankly, I don't owe you anything just because you decide to share your deafness with us. I gave your comments the level of attention they deserve - not very much.
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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....





    Systems of known cable deniers on Facebook. I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....


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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    You watched my vid and you posted:

    "Unfortunately your video is pretty much indistinguishable from countless personal testaments to pseudoscience. (Which doesn't entail that the cable IS pseudoscience and doesn't alter the sound: only that you provide nothing beyond mere anecdote...and no particular technical plausibility...for your claims). So, it will be only persuasive to folks who already believe the type of things you believe, for the same type of reasons."

    Then I know all about you I need to.
    You baited people with:

    A call out to Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers everywhere.

    If you are going to post that type of click-bait, you reap what you sow. (As you were called out by others on the thread for this).

    And if there was any point at which you addressed the concerns of "cable deniers" or "apologized" (for what?) it was well buried in the long rambling video because I didn't catch it.

    But even then, in response I did not dogmatically state your claims about the cables were wrong; I just pointed out that if you were hailing "cable deniers" to watch your video, you hardly provided anything of substance. (But it's clear now you are working on a click-bait format, and not really interested in engaging the issues).

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Frankly, I don't owe you anything just because you decide to share your deafness with us. I gave your comments the level of attention they deserve - not very much.
    Stay classy.

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by MattHooper View Post
    You baited people with:

    A call out to Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers everywhere.

    If you are going to post that type of click-bait, you reap what you sow. (As you were called out by others on the thread for this).

    And if there was any point at which you addressed the concerns of "cable deniers" or "apologized" (for what?) it was well buried in the long rambling video because I didn't catch it.

    But even then, in response I did not dogmatically state your claims about the cables were wrong; I just pointed out that if you were hailing "cable deniers" to watch your video, you hardly provided anything of substance. (But it's clear now you are working on a click-bait format, and not really interested in engaging the issues).



    Stay classy.
    I did apologize to cable deniers in the vid. If you watched it you'd know that. I apologized you were deaf.

    And here is a tip for you - titles are meant to get people to watch.

    BTW Mike posted to you above. Which one is yours?
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    I did apologize to cable deniers in the vid. If you watched it you'd know that. I apologized you were deaf.
    So you want to play the jerk on your channel, and then complain when you get pushback?

    I know this is apparently one business model on youtube but, it's still a bit weird.

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    BTW Mike posted to you above. Which one is yours?
    Are you on a mission to exemplify every awkward cliche about audiophiles? Now it's the gear "pissing contest"?

    FWIW, I've been an audiophile since the early 90s and have heard plenty of high end gear, and some of the most lauded systems. I've owned or had in my room tons of nice equipment over the years, from Von Schweikert to MBL speakers to various Audio Physic, top of the line Thiels, Waveform, many others and I'm currently using Joseph Audio Perspective Graphene 2s. I've had various high end cable brands through my system, including Nordost, Audience and others. I was just listening at my friend's place to 65K Estalon speakers using at least $50G of cabling (Nordost, Crystal cable etc). So, no, I'm not buying the cheapest stuff I can find at box stores. You'll have to retire that caricature for these purposes.

    But that is neither here nor there. I don't think much rests on what gear you or I have owned, but rather on the plausibility of claims and the type of evidence. I'm certainly not going to call you deaf. You may well be a good listener and hearing the things you say you hear. You can always brush off whatever experience I may have - as an audiophile and the fact I make a living in sound, using my hearing acuity - and use the Golden Ears playbook of "Well then you are deaf not to hear things I can hear." It's a neatly unfalsifiable position, just like if I claim to hear things you can't hear.

    Unfortunately that type of snobbishness is one reason why people have a poor impression of audiophiles.

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by MattHooper View Post
    So you want to play the jerk on your channel, and then complain when you get pushback?

    I know this is apparently one business model on youtube but, it's still a bit weird.



    Are you on a mission to exemplify every awkward cliche about audiophiles? Now it's the gear "pissing contest"?

    FWIW, I've been an audiophile since the early 90s and have heard plenty of high end gear, and some of the most lauded systems. I've owned or had in my room tons of nice equipment over the years, from Von Schweikert to MBL speakers to various Audio Physic, top of the line Thiels, Waveform, many others and I'm currently using Joseph Audio Perspective Graphene 2s. I've had various high end cable brands through my system, including Nordost, Audience and others. I was just listening at my friend's place to 65K Estalon speakers using at least $50G of cabling (Nordost, Crystal cable etc).

    But that is neither here nor there. I don't think much rests on what gear you or I have owned, but rather on the plausibility of claims and the type of evidence. I'm certainly not going to call you deaf. You may well be a good listener and hearing the things you say you hear. You can always brush off whatever experience I may have - as an audiophile and the fact I make a living in sound, using my hearing acuity - and use the Golden Ears playbook of "Well then you are deaf not to hear things I can hear." It's a neatly unfalsifiable position, just like if I claim to hear things you can't hear.

    Unfortunately that type of snobbishness is one reason why people have a poor impression of audiophiles.
    I bet it's the fireplace one. Is it the fireplace one? I bet it is...
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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    ^^^

    ???

    Stranger and stranger....

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post




    Systems of known cable deniers on Facebook. I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Audiophiles defending their expensive cables (and other tweaks) try that one all the time.

    "Oh, you expressed some skepticism about a cable? Your system must suuuuuck. Where do you shop? Radio shack?"

    Then when I tell them the equipment I own (and have owned, and have experience with)...it's silence and evasion...on to some other silly insult.
    (see: MichaelsMinute for example).

    Doesn't work very well when people try this move on Amir either (Amir's system):


  27. #27
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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by MattHooper View Post
    Audiophiles defending their expensive cables (and other tweaks) try that one all the time.

    "Oh, you expressed some skepticism about a cable? Your system must suuuuuck. Where do you shop? Radio shack?"

    Then when I tell them the equipment I own (and have owned)...it's silence and evasion...on to some other silly insult.
    (see: MichaelsMinute for example).

    Doesn't work very well when people try this move on Amir either (Amir's system):

    Let’s see your system. If you don’t think cables make a difference, awesome! Don’t spend your money on them. Buy lamp cord from Home Depot. Save the money.

    But those who have tried multiple cables know they make a huge difference. So why does that bother you? If you think it’s all nonsense, cool, awesome, save your money. Others who’ve tried multiple cables love what they hear.


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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Let’s see your system.
    I have no problem posting photos of my system if someone is actually interested, rather than just looking for a "gotcha."

    So first: What will posting my system tell you? If it is sufficiently high end, won't you just move to "well then his hearing must be the problem?"

    That's pretty much how it goes every time I post my system. Doesn't get us anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    If you don’t think cables make a difference, awesome! Don’t spend your money on them. Buy lamp cord from Home Depot. Save the money.
    I'm open to anything making a difference. But when the claims are controversial among people with relevant expertise, I prefer stronger evidence than anecdotes. I use Belden 10awg speaker cable, but I've used any number of "high end" speaker cables previously (usually cast offs from audiophiles more in to cables, and they upgraded. I've also used all sorts of interconnects in my system, as I mentioned Nordost, Audience, AudioQuest and others. Given or loaned to me when I need more cables. I've also heard my speakers (which I sold to a reviewer friend) hooked up to some of the top Nordost, Crystal cable and others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    But those who have tried multiple cables know they make a huge difference. So why does that bother you?
    It doesn't "bother" me so much as it's part of our hobby to be interested in gear and how or whether it works. Why does it bother you if someone is a cable skeptic? (Your previous post suggests it does).

    Hashing out claims from manufacturers, exchanging notes and opinions on gear is part of why people hang out on enthusiast forums. I have no problem with people having different opinions nor I think should you. But expressing reasons for skepticism about some other audiophiles claim shouldn't be taken as some personal affront.

    And, remember, I'm not just jumping in to some thread in which people were happily discussing their new cables. It was a deliberate "call out" vid/thread for "cable deniers" where (it turns out) the OP calls skeptics "deaf." I'm not a "denier" but I know that cable fans love to pigeon hole any level of skepticism in to the "denier" category, so the OP was clearly calling out people with alternative opinions.

    I mean...perhaps some prefer an echo-chamber. I don't. I like an exchange of views (when people are mature enough to handle that, which the OP clearly is not).

  29. #29
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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by MattHooper View Post
    I have no problem posting photos of my system if someone is actually interested, rather than just looking for a "gotcha."

    So first: What will posting my system tell you? If it is sufficiently high end, won't you just move to "well then his hearing must be the problem?"

    That's pretty much how it goes every time I post my system. Doesn't get us anywhere.



    I'm open to anything making a difference. But when the claims are controversial among people with relevant expertise, I prefer stronger evidence than anecdotes. I use Belden 10awg speaker cable, but I've used any number of "high end" speaker cables previously (usually cast offs from audiophiles more in to cables, and they upgraded. I've also used all sorts of interconnects in my system, as I mentioned Nordost, Audience, AudioQuest and others. Given or loaned to me when I need more cables. I've also heard my speakers (which I sold to a reviewer friend) hooked up to some of the top Nordost, Crystal cable and others.



    It doesn't "bother" me so much as it's part of our hobby to be interested in gear and how or whether it works. Why does it bother you if someone is a cable skeptic? (Your previous post suggests it does).

    Hashing out claims from manufacturers, exchanging notes and opinions on gear is part of why people hang out on enthusiast forums. I have no problem with people having different opinions nor I think should you. But expressing reasons for skepticism about some other audiophiles claim shouldn't be taken as some personal affront.

    And, remember, I'm not just jumping in to some thread in which people were happily discussing their new cables. It was a deliberate "call out" vid/thread for "cable deniers" where (it turns out) the OP calls skeptics "deaf." I'm not a "denier" but I know that cable fans love to pigeon hole any level of skepticism in to the "denier" category, so the OP was clearly calling out people with alternative opinions.

    I mean...perhaps some prefer an echo-chamber. I don't. I like an exchange of views (when people are mature enough to handle that, which the OP clearly is not).
    If your system is not sufficiently resolving, like the ones I’ve shown, then cables don’t matter and we agree! But on the flip side, resolving high end systems have no problem showing the differences between cables. If they didn’t, the cable industry would not exist. We would all use lamp cord.

    Similarly, if you’re driving a 4 cylinder 20 year old sedan, putting 93 octane in the tank won’t make a difference. But try using 87 octane with a high end performance car and find out.

    You’re not a believer in cables. We get it. Cool. Save your money and buy more music.

    But let me leave you with a little story. When I was deciding on cables for my own system, I spent 30 days trying a wide variety of cables. I had a preset playlist and kept the volume the same. I started with the IC’s between the DAC and preamp. I went through a wide variety and they all exhibited various sonic benefits, mostly due to their capacitance, high, low, medium, whatever. High capacitance cables smoother on top, plumper on the bottom end. Low capacitance cables with more air and detail. But when I got to the Odin 2, I could hear this person breathing, I could hear them swallow on the recording, I literally jumped out of my chair thinking someone was in the room! That’s how resolving this cable is. I went back to others to make sure I didn’t miss it. Nope, the Odin 2 brought it right to the forefront. It “dug” deeper.


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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    If your system is not sufficiently resolving, like the ones I’ve shown, then cables don’t matter and we agree!
    Like many audiophiles I've had various systems. Right now I have my Joseph Audio Perspective graphene 2 speakers running - a speaker that John Atkinson declared "hi-res" in resolving subtle differences, Fremer raved about the Pulsar version, and Joseph audio regularly gets among "best of show" notices at audio shows. My preamps are the CJ Premier 16LS2, and also the ultra-low distortion Benchmark LA4, among the lowest distortion consumer preamps available. My amps are the CJ Premier 12 monoblocks, which I've compared to various amps (e.g. I've had a Bryston 4B3 for a while, and other amps, tube and solid state) and it holds up very well. Source is a Benchmark DAC2L - again, premier in low distortion. Turntable is a Transrotor Fat Bob S/Acoustic Solid Arm/Benz Micro Ebony L cartridge.

    I'm quite familiar with very high end systems and mine holds up well (I've also heard my speakers on Nordost cabling/top of the line SimAudio amplification...and I'm getting plenty of detail in my set up, even more than I've heard at my dealer because I have a very good room, acoustically).

    The thing is, though, this is all a red herring. Because it ISN'T a fact that audiophiles claim "you have to have a hi-res system to hear cable differences." Audiophiles with all ranges of systems, from very modest to expensive, claim to hear differences with cables!
    Go to Amazon and even very cheap cables (by high end standards) used with modest gear get rave reviews for "changing the sound of my system."

    This means either:

    1. It's just false that you need a Super High Res system to hear cable differences, as they can make a difference on modest systems (making your request a red herring).

    or:

    2. The many audiophiles reporting differences with cheaper cables/systems are imaging the differences. Which would be a lesson about how audiophiles are prone to hearing differences that don't exist.

    Gotta be one or the other. :-)



    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    But on the flip side, resolving high end systems have no problem showing the differences between cables. If they didn’t, the cable industry would not exist.
    Forgive me, that don't you see a problem with that reasoning? "If astrology weren't true, astrologers and horoscopes wouldn't exist!" "If psychics weren't real, that huge psychic reading industry wouldn't exist" "If X religion weren't true, then all those believers wouldn't exist...."

    People really can fool themselves. Even many, many people. It's human nature, how our brain works naturally.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post

    But let me leave you with a little story. When I was deciding on cables for my own system, I spent 30 days trying a wide variety of cables. I had a preset playlist and kept the volume the same. I started with the IC’s between the DAC and preamp. I went through a wide variety and they all exhibited various sonic benefits, mostly due to their capacitance, high, low, medium, whatever. High capacitance cables smoother on top, plumper on the bottom end. Low capacitance cables with more air and detail. But when I got to the Odin 2, I could hear this person breathing, I could hear them swallow on the recording, I literally jumped out of my chair thinking someone was in the room! That’s how resolving this cable is. I went back to others to make sure I didn’t miss it. Nope, the Odin 2 brought it right to the forefront. It “dug” deeper.
    Ok, thanks for the story. But...

    1. If I tell you stories about people NOT hearing differences with those type of cables (and in fact, I heard my speakers with near top of the line Nordost cabling, and I got all the detail I heard there with the modest pro-grade cables I used at home)....you won't take that as any evidence that cables don't really make a difference, right? Such is the power (or lack) of anecdotes in settling these issues.

    2. Do you think they used Nordost Odin 2 cabling when making that recording you reference? (Or most of the recordings you listen to?). I doubt it, right? In all likelihood, like most studios, they used standard pro cables (e.g. Canare, Belden, Mogami, or others depending on age of the recording). Plus the cabling in many such set ups, strewn about the floor, would leave the cable-riser crowd with nightmares. And yet, those meager cables were sufficient to capture and transmit...often through reams of cables.... the very details that took your breath away. Right? Doesn't that tell you something?

    Cheers.

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by MattHooper View Post
    Like many audiophiles I've had various systems. Right now I have my Joseph Audio Perspective graphene 2 speakers running - a speaker that John Atkinson declared "hi-res" in resolving subtle differences, Fremer raved about the Pulsar version, and Joseph audio regularly gets among "best of show" notices at audio shows. My preamps are the CJ Premier 16LS2, and also the ultra-low distortion Benchmark LA4, among the lowest distortion consumer preamps available. My amps are the CJ Premier 12 monoblocks, which I've compared to various amps (e.g. I've had a Bryston 4B3 for a while, and other amps, tube and solid state) and it holds up very well. Source is a Benchmark DAC2L - again, premier in low distortion. Turntable is a Transrotor Fat Bob S/Acoustic Solid Arm/Benz Micro Ebony L cartridge.

    I'm quite familiar with very high end systems and mine holds up well (I've also heard my speakers on Nordost cabling/top of the line SimAudio amplification...and I'm getting plenty of detail in my set up, even more than I've heard at my dealer because I have a very good room, acoustically).

    The thing is, though, this is all a red herring. Because it ISN'T a fact that audiophiles claim "you have to have a hi-res system to hear cable differences." Audiophiles with all ranges of systems, from very modest to expensive, claim to hear differences with cables!
    Go to Amazon and even very cheap cables (by high end standards) used with modest gear get rave reviews for "changing the sound of my system."

    This means either:

    1. It's just false that you need a Super High Res system to hear cable differences, as they can make a difference on modest systems (making your request a red herring).

    or:

    2. The many audiophiles reporting differences with cheaper cables/systems are imaging the differences. Which would be a lesson about how audiophiles are prone to hearing differences that don't exist.

    Gotta be one or the other. :-)





    Forgive me, that don't you see a problem with that reasoning? "If astrology weren't true, astrologers and horoscopes wouldn't exist!" "If psychics weren't real, that huge psychic reading industry wouldn't exist" "If X religion weren't true, then all those believers wouldn't exist...."

    People really can fool themselves. Even many, many people. It's human nature, how our brain works naturally.




    Ok, thanks for the story. But...

    1. If I tell you stories about people NOT hearing differences with those type of cables (and in fact, I heard my speakers with near top of the line Nordost cabling, and I got all the detail I heard there with the modest pro-grade cables I used at home)....you won't take that as any evidence that cables don't really make a difference, right? Such is the power (or lack) of anecdotes in settling these issues.

    2. Do you think they used Nordost Odin 2 cabling when making that recording you reference? (Or most of the recordings you listen to?). I doubt it, right? In all likelihood, like most studios, they used standard pro cables (e.g. Canare, Belden, Mogami, or others depending on age of the recording). Plus the cabling in many such set ups, strewn about the floor, would leave the cable-riser crowd with nightmares. And yet, those meager cables were sufficient to capture and transmit...often through reams of cables.... the very details that took your breath away. Right? Doesn't that tell you something?

    Cheers.
    Good luck Matt.


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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    nothing like a good 'cable discussion' over ones morning coffee !!
    Cheers ! …. Dave

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
    nothing like a good 'cable discussion' over ones morning coffee !!
    I have been chuckling about the Psychic having a Job, but the ones near me can never predict nobody will show up on any given day and they stay open for 12 hours or more
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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Classic Brian !
    Cheers ! …. Dave

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    I have been chuckling about the Psychic having a Job, but the ones near me can never predict nobody will show up on any given day and they stay open for 12 hours or more
    That's funny. LOL
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    That's funny. LOL
    Just to be fair, I just watched the video. I like the enthusiasm and verbal descriptions but......With all the recording gear you have and the degree of change you heard, it should be easily demonstrable even in a You Tube video. A demo of a cable swap and sound change would be 100 times more convincing. They did it with the Iso Acoustic footers on Focal speakers in a YT video so anyone should be able to hear the dramatic changes you heard as long as they have most of their hearing intact.
    -----------------
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    Rotel RCD-1572 / Rega P3 > Luxman 505UX Mark II > Fyne Audio F502SPs > Synergistic Cables

    Secondary - OPPO 93 > VAC CLA 1 MKII Pre > Odyssey Stratos > Dynaudio Audience 82s > Tara Labs Cables


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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    Just to be fair, I just watched the video. I like the enthusiasm and verbal descriptions but......With all the recording gear you have and the degree of change you heard, it should be easily demonstrable even in a You Tube video. A demo of a cable swap and sound change would be 100 times more convincing. They did it with the Iso Acoustic footers on Focal speakers in a YT video so anyone should be able to hear the dramatic changes you heard as long as they have most of their hearing intact.
    Hey Brian - for sure and I don't disagree - it's a fair comment you made. Each video I makes takes between 30-40 hours to make in the current form. I still have other things to so in life including a job. I don't have the bandwidth as a 1 man operation to add additional HOURS of trying to record with a mic, capture the sound correctly, and then editing. I am already backed up by something like 14 more reviews that are waiting for me to get out. AND that's not even counting the 23 videos I have to make for another channel regarding CINE.

    It simply becomes a matter of there are a lot of things I'd like to do in the vids, but just don't have the time.

    My vids are designed as I've been saying as an audio journey - covering my experiences and thoughts. There are other channels and websites that do a great job with the recordings that people can go to if they'd like.

    And finally I do believe anyone who is serious about any of the gear I talk about is going to demo it in their home, their system and to their ears to see if it works for them and not rely on Youtube as a source.

    I appreciate your thoughts as aways and you watching the vid!
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

  38. #38
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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    Just to be fair, I just watched the video. I like the enthusiasm and verbal descriptions but......With all the recording gear you have and the degree of change you heard, it should be easily demonstrable even in a You Tube video. A demo of a cable swap and sound change would be 100 times more convincing. They did it with the Iso Acoustic footers on Focal speakers in a YT video so anyone should be able to hear the dramatic changes you heard as long as they have most of their hearing intact.
    It should also be demonstrable (at least by any cable company) with measurements, a null test, or by any individual simply being able to reliably tell the cables apart without peeking.

    Interesting that you virtually never get such evidence. :-)

    That's the type of evidence I'm waiting for. "But why not just use your ears?" Because, yes I use my ears all day long, in my work, in my audio hobby. But when it comes to really caring about being sure, especially in regard to technically controversial claims, then I'd want to see more rigorous evidence. Having done blind tests, I've learned how easy it is to Absolutely Hear Differences...under sighted conditions....that weren't there (once I didn't know which I was listening to).

    Most audiophiles haven't tested themselves in this way, haven't experienced differences you were *sure* where there, vanishing once suitable controls were put in place. So, most go on believing their perception is always right, or the Gold Standard for evaluating all audio claims. You can do that, when you don't really put your beliefs to more rigorous testing. And...why would you? If you stay resolutely in the Golden Ear camp you always have your trump card, even over people with more expertise. "Ok Mr. Expert, you may have all your 'knowledge' of the subject and all your 'instruments' saying there's no signal difference between A and B, but I can trump that! My Ears Tell Me Otherwise! So I'm right; you're wrong!"

    Some don't want to have that position become vulnerable.

    The cable market will always be able to rely on "those who use only their ears" to vet their claims. Which is why it's a good thing to have some folks out there with technical skill and equipment to test manufacturer claims. Some care to take in this information, some don't, which is fine. It's just a fun hobby for most of us.

    Cheerio.

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Hey Brian - for sure and I don't disagree - it's a fair comment you made. Each video I makes takes between 30-40 hours to make in the current form. I still have other things to so in life including a job. I don't have the bandwidth as a 1 man operation to add additional HOURS of trying to record with a mic, capture the sound correctly, and then editing. I am already backed up by something like 14 more reviews that are waiting for me to get out. AND that's not even counting the 23 videos I have to make for another channel regarding CINE.

    It simply becomes a matter of there are a lot of things I'd like to do in the vids, but just don't have the time.

    My vids are designed as I've been saying as an audio journey - covering my experiences and thoughts. There are other channels and websites that do a great job with the recordings that people can go to if they'd like.

    And finally I do believe anyone who is serious about any of the gear I talk about is going to demo it in their home, their system and to their ears to see if it works for them and not rely on Youtube as a source.

    I appreciate your thoughts as aways and you watching the vid!
    I also wanted to add that I am not a retail store - so I am not trying to sell anything.

    I am not paid to do this so I am not here to convince anyone of anything.

    And let's be honest, the deaf cable deniers aren't even capable / willing to believe their own ears on a system in front of them, so there is nothing they would ever believe on Youtube. So any argument they claim otherwise we all know is not true.

    Literally God himself could come down and confirm cables make a difference - like everyone with a resolving (note NOT expensive) system will attest to and they still wouldn't believe.

    I make the videos for me and to have fun doing it. Not to try and convince anyone of anything (not aimed at you Bryan).
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by MattHooper View Post

    The cable market will always be able to rely on "those who use only their ears" to vet their claims. Which is why it's a good thing to have some folks out there with technical skill and equipment to test manufacturer claims. Some care to take in this information, some don't, which is fine. It's just a fun hobby for most of us.

    Cheerio.
    So in other words, you would buy something because it measures fantastic whether you can hear a difference or not? And if you can hear the difference, along with the measurements than others can hear differences also.

    Cheers
    -----------------
    Brian

    Main System -
    Rotel RCD-1572 / Rega P3 > Luxman 505UX Mark II > Fyne Audio F502SPs > Synergistic Cables

    Secondary - OPPO 93 > VAC CLA 1 MKII Pre > Odyssey Stratos > Dynaudio Audience 82s > Tara Labs Cables


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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    And let's be honest, the deaf cable deniers aren't even capable / willing to believe their own ears on a system in front of them, so there is nothing they would ever believe on Youtube. So any argument they claim otherwise we all know is not true.
    Why are you so obsessed with people skeptical about certain claims in high end audio, like ultra expensive cables? So upset that you need to insult them as being "deaf?"

    Chill.

    You should be able to practice the hobby any way you wish, believe on any grounds you want. I totally support that. But someone like me is just giving my own reasons for skepticism, my own opinion, and you really should be able to handle that without cheap insults. It's ok for people to have different opinions...don't you remember saying that?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Literally God himself could come down and confirm cables make a difference - like everyone with a resolving (note NOT expensive) system will attest to and they still wouldn't believe.
    There does seem to be some resemblance to religion going on ;-)

    And, of course, you are wrong about the position of a skeptic. You've got things in reverse.

    The person seeking objective evidence is actually open to changing his mind. "I have my doubts that there is a sonic difference between cable A and cable B, but HERE is what could change my mind...(measurable difference in the plausibly audible range, people passing blind tests...).

    The skeptic holds to falsifiable positions. That's how disagreements can actually be settled one way or another. (Basically, it's a scientific mindset).

    The purely subjective-oriented audiophile is actually more dogmatic. Why? Because it's a position of My Ears Are Right And THAT's THAT!

    Just like we see in this thread.

    This is the Golden Ear position: I know what I hear, and if you can't hear it that's a problem with your hearing.

    Can the Golden Ear position be falsified by measurements?

    No. The Golden Ear rejects measurements in favor of What I Know I Hear.

    Can the Golden Ear position be falsified by blind testing?

    No. The Golden Ear won't put his claims to such testing.

    So, the Golden Ear maintains a dogmatic, unfalsifiable position.

    It can't even be falsified by his own method - "just using your ears." Why not? Because if a Golden Ear says "I hear a difference between these cables" and someone else listens and reports "actually, there is no audible difference" the Golden Ear will just say "Well, too bad for you; that just shows you don't have hearing as good as mine."

    From which comes the "cable deniers are deaf" insults we see in threads like this.

    So, it's always ironic to see skeptics cast as the close-minded ones, when it's actually more like the other way around.

    (And all the above will likely be ignored, because "why read stuff that conflicts with my beliefs?")

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    ' Placebo Effect, Expectation Bias, Psychoacoustics' , an understanding of these three and an acceptance of their influence is what is paramount to anyone with reasonable, cognitive behavior................
    Cheers ! …. Dave

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    If it sounds better to me, I will prefer it to something I think does not. Measure that!
    -----------------
    Brian

    Main System -
    Rotel RCD-1572 / Rega P3 > Luxman 505UX Mark II > Fyne Audio F502SPs > Synergistic Cables

    Secondary - OPPO 93 > VAC CLA 1 MKII Pre > Odyssey Stratos > Dynaudio Audience 82s > Tara Labs Cables


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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    So in other words, you would buy something because it measures fantastic whether you can hear a difference or not? And if you can hear the difference, along with the measurements than others can hear differences also.

    Cheers
    Thanks for the question Shadowfax!

    I am not particularly measurement obsessed myself. My tube amp, tube preamp, turntable, speakers were not bought "on the measurements" but on what I perceived. As I've said before here, I don't think anyone *needs* to practice this hobby at a scientific level - that can be challenging and a pain in the *ss if you aren't up for it.

    I did buy the Benchmark LA4 preamp partly based on the measurements. I appreciate the level of engineering that resulted in it's stellar low distortion (even though I'm pretty sure I couldn't tell it apart from another SS preamp with higher, but inaudible, distortion). The low distortion numbers were also peace-of-mind since I wanted to try running my CJ preamp through the Benchmark as well, so I could switch between pre-amps with my remote control. (I have that set up now, it's quite fun. And it also allowed me to easily do a blind test between the preamps, which I easily passed for recognizing each preamp).
    Just as important, the Benchmark had a feature set/input/output scheme that suited my needs.

    And yes I agree that if I can hear a (real) sonic difference it should be measurable, and other people should be able to hear that difference too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    If it sounds better to me, I will prefer it to something I think does not. Measure that!
    I have a similar attitude, actually.

    For instance with loudspeakers: Research shows that sighted listening can influence our perception of the sound. One loudspeaker may get more favorable ratings in sighted tests, but when one only hears the sound (speakers hidden from view, e.g. via Harman Kardon speaker testing facilities), the rating may be lower. Some take away from this we should seek only speakers that measure "good" in ways that are preferred under blind listening situations.

    But I don't listen to speakers in blind listening conditions. Like everyone else, I listen "sighted." Therefore, for my purposes, if I perceive a speaker to sound better than one that "measures better for blind tests" I will go with the speaker I perceive as sounding better. Because...whether it's the case I am perceiving the sound perfectly reliably or not, or whether there is some sighted bias influencing my perception....well, that's how I'll be listening to the speakers, so those are the conditions I wish to satisfy. (For instance I LOVE the sound of Devore O/96 speakers, even though they do not measure in a way that ASR members would tend to approve of).

    However, I've had instances where it made sense for me to care more about what was actually happening sonically. For instance I changed music servers and against my expectations I seemed to "hear" a difference with the new server. It seemed brighter, more brittle sounding, which surprised and disappointed me. But, knowing it was unlikely on technical grounds they would sound different, and knowing how biases can influence perception EVEN when you aren't expecting a change, I had a friend help me blind test between the old and new server. Result: No detectable sonic difference. It was my imagination. That saved me any hand wringing over the issue.

  45. #45

    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Literally God himself could come down and confirm cables make a difference - like everyone with a resolving (note NOT expensive) system will attest to and they still wouldn't believe.


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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post

    MichaelsMinute's comment was incorrect for the reasons I gave in my last post. I explained that I'm open to changing my mind on any given claim, and explained what type of evidence would do that.

    But since you seem to agree with him, and I presume you think being close minded is a bad thing, then you'd want to be open
    to changing your mind, correct? And you'd want some good way to discern when you are in error, in order to change your mind.


    Let's say you believe you heard a difference between two high end cables.

    Questions:

    1. Could you be wrong in what you perceive?

    2. If so, what could lead you to such an error?

    3. How would you find out that you are wrong? What method would you accept to demonstrate you've come to a wrong
    conclusion based on your subjective perception that "A sounds different than B?"

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Just another thing to point out.

    It's common to see claims like the one Mike made: "But those who have tried multiple cables know they make a huge difference."

    This is in tension with the other claim one must have a very "resolving" system in order to hear these differences.

    If cables produce "huge" sonic difference, that entails you don't need a Super Resolving Hi-Fi to hear them. Any modest but competent set up can resolve "huge" sonic differences...and even very subtle differences. I have used a variety of monitors in my work, occasionally having to make do with some fairly cheap monitors in a pinch, and it was still no problem hearing all the large and very, very subtle sonic changes I made to the sounds. If cables significantly modify frequency response, or imaging/soundstaging etc, that should be audible in any half-way decent stereo system. I am modifying those characteristics all the time in my work, again sometimes very subtly, and it doesn't take a Super System to hear it.

  48. #48
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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Matt and those who liked his posts, you cannot tell what a speaker sounds like from a spec sheet. First of all Matt goes on to say later that he does do some listening and secondly if you can tell by specs there wouldn't be a need for any audition. You can find speakers in Stereophile that measure close to the same and sound quite different. Plus you cannot measurement aspects of how a speaker will present a sound stage or other relevant factors that would come into play to please a listener. I doubt his Joseph has a flat line response.

    Matt would be offended if called a Troll but he keeps the argument going and pretty much contradicts himself. It makes no sense that someone like him has actually listened to cables and heard no difference. For those of us who know there's differences it's like telling us it's midnight when it's actually noon. It makes him look so absurd to us, like he believes the world is flat. He starts out hardline then slowly relents some points he made prior. If cables make no difference why even bother with audiophile hand me downs. You make no sense.

    Interesting that a measurement man would stick a CJ preamp on front of a Benchmark. Benchmark for being known as having good measurements but subjectively not being so pleasant to listen to, CJ is sort of the opposite end of the pond sounding very good IMO with a touch of romance depending on unit. The combo is understandable but why Matt would do it is not based on his posted comments.

    I love the way deniers try to beat people with DBT, when you actually look at one they want to give about 3 seconds of a song like they are afraid you might just hear something. They also know we all live in other parts of the country or world so the test would never happen. If we do them ourselves then it's not controlled. Matt go back to ASR, bye.

    It's also funny how cable companies have a voodoo they can put on customers to make them believe anything. They have a special magic that no other industry seems to be able to get their hands on. Consumers will eventually put a company out of business selling products that don't live up to the claim but cable companies seem to be able use the voodoo to avoid the power of simple economics.

    Matt is here to save you all and you don't appreciate it, your so unable to think for yourselves and prone to being made a fool of yet somehow you are all professionals who manage to have the means to buy gear most of us dream of.
    Aurender ACS10 w/Audioquest Diamond USB, Esoteric N05xd
    Mark Levinson #526, 534 & JBL 4367's
    Clearaudio Performance DC w/Maestro cart
    Clarus Concerto & their Crimson cables

    HT: Marantz AV8003, Linn 5125, JBL SAM3ha, Revel s30,
    SVS PC13 Ultra
    Transparent, Analysis Plus & Tributaries. PS Audio filtering
    Sony XBR-75X940D & BDP
    Parasound P6, MBL 8006b, Artisan speakers/subwoofer

  49. #49

    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by MattHooper View Post
    Let's say you believe you heard a difference between two high end cables.

    Questions:

    1. Could you be wrong in what you perceive?

    2. If so, what could lead you to such an error?

    3. How would you find out that you are wrong? What method would you accept to demonstrate you've come to a wrong
    conclusion based on your subjective perception that "A sounds different than B?"
    Music is about emotion.
    Audio gear is about bringing us that emotion.
    Forums are (should be) for sharing the hobby and not for winning discussions and presenting arguments that are apparently logical but won´t leave us anywhere and only serve to stop the evolution of those who want to improve the performance of their system.

    So I won't answer your questions because that would be feeding what I consider to be the misunderstanding.

    Cheers!

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    Re: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    Music is about emotion.
    Audio gear is about bringing us that emotion.
    Music is about emotion. Audio Gear is engineering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    Forums are (should be) for sharing the hobby and not for winning discussions and presenting arguments that are apparently logical but won´t leave us anywhere and only serve to stop the evolution of those who want to improve the performance of their system.

    So I won't answer your questions because that would be feeding what I consider to be the misunderstanding.

    Cheers!
    I think you won't answer because nobody (that is in the "I Only Use My Ears" camp) has ever answered those questions. Well, some have answered just to say "I can not be wrong."


    You say you don't want to be feeding misunderstandings, and yet you voted up a comment that did exactly that. So it seems ok to do that for people you don't disagree with? And to depict others as close minded, while being unwilling to simply explain how your position isn't close minded?

    Ok. But I don't think it's taking the high road...

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