I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

MichaelsMinute said:
And let's be honest, the deaf cable deniers aren't even capable / willing to believe their own ears on a system in front of them, so there is nothing they would ever believe on Youtube. So any argument they claim otherwise we all know is not true.
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Why are you so obsessed with people skeptical about certain claims in high end audio, like ultra expensive cables? So upset that you need to insult them as being "deaf?"

Chill.

You should be able to practice the hobby any way you wish, believe on any grounds you want. I totally support that. But someone like me is just giving my own reasons for skepticism, my own opinion, and you really should be able to handle that without cheap insults. It's ok for people to have different opinions...don't you remember saying that?

MichaelsMinute said:
Literally God himself could come down and confirm cables make a difference - like everyone with a resolving (note NOT expensive) system will attest to and they still wouldn't believe.
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There does seem to be some resemblance to religion going on ;-)

And, of course, you are wrong about the position of a skeptic. You've got things in reverse.

The person seeking objective evidence is actually open to changing his mind. "I have my doubts that there is a sonic difference between cable A and cable B, but HERE is what could change my mind...(measurable difference in the plausibly audible range, people passing blind tests...).

The skeptic holds to falsifiable positions. That's how disagreements can actually be settled one way or another. (Basically, it's a scientific mindset).

The purely subjective-oriented audiophile is actually more dogmatic. Why? Because it's a position of My Ears Are Right And THAT's THAT!

Just like we see in this thread.

This is the Golden Ear position: I know what I hear, and if you can't hear it that's a problem with your hearing.

Can the Golden Ear position be falsified by measurements?

No. The Golden Ear rejects measurements in favor of What I Know I Hear.

Can the Golden Ear position be falsified by blind testing?

No. The Golden Ear won't put his claims to such testing.

So, the Golden Ear maintains a dogmatic, unfalsifiable position.

It can't even be falsified by his own method - "just using your ears." Why not? Because if a Golden Ear says "I hear a difference between these cables" and someone else listens and reports "actually, there is no audible difference" the Golden Ear will just say "Well, too bad for you; that just shows you don't have hearing as good as mine."

From which comes the "cable deniers are deaf" insults we see in threads like this.

So, it's always ironic to see skeptics cast as the close-minded ones, when it's actually more like the other way around.

(And all the above will likely be ignored, because "why read stuff that conflicts with my beliefs?")
 
' Placebo Effect, Expectation Bias, Psychoacoustics' , an understanding of these three and an acceptance of their influence is what is paramount to anyone with reasonable, cognitive behavior................ :D
 
Shadowfax said:
So in other words, you would buy something because it measures fantastic whether you can hear a difference or not? And if you can hear the difference, along with the measurements than others can hear differences also.

Cheers
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Thanks for the question Shadowfax!

I am not particularly measurement obsessed myself. My tube amp, tube preamp, turntable, speakers were not bought "on the measurements" but on what I perceived. As I've said before here, I don't think anyone *needs* to practice this hobby at a scientific level - that can be challenging and a pain in the *ss if you aren't up for it.

I did buy the Benchmark LA4 preamp partly based on the measurements. I appreciate the level of engineering that resulted in it's stellar low distortion (even though I'm pretty sure I couldn't tell it apart from another SS preamp with higher, but inaudible, distortion). The low distortion numbers were also peace-of-mind since I wanted to try running my CJ preamp through the Benchmark as well, so I could switch between pre-amps with my remote control. (I have that set up now, it's quite fun. And it also allowed me to easily do a blind test between the preamps, which I easily passed for recognizing each preamp).
Just as important, the Benchmark had a feature set/input/output scheme that suited my needs.

And yes I agree that if I can hear a (real) sonic difference it should be measurable, and other people should be able to hear that difference too.

Shadowfax said:
If it sounds better to me, I will prefer it to something I think does not. Measure that!
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I have a similar attitude, actually.

For instance with loudspeakers: Research shows that sighted listening can influence our perception of the sound. One loudspeaker may get more favorable ratings in sighted tests, but when one only hears the sound (speakers hidden from view, e.g. via Harman Kardon speaker testing facilities), the rating may be lower. Some take away from this we should seek only speakers that measure "good" in ways that are preferred under blind listening situations.

But I don't listen to speakers in blind listening conditions. Like everyone else, I listen "sighted." Therefore, for my purposes, if I perceive a speaker to sound better than one that "measures better for blind tests" I will go with the speaker I perceive as sounding better. Because...whether it's the case I am perceiving the sound perfectly reliably or not, or whether there is some sighted bias influencing my perception....well, that's how I'll be listening to the speakers, so those are the conditions I wish to satisfy. (For instance I LOVE the sound of Devore O/96 speakers, even though they do not measure in a way that ASR members would tend to approve of).

However, I've had instances where it made sense for me to care more about what was actually happening sonically. For instance I changed music servers and against my expectations I seemed to "hear" a difference with the new server. It seemed brighter, more brittle sounding, which surprised and disappointed me. But, knowing it was unlikely on technical grounds they would sound different, and knowing how biases can influence perception EVEN when you aren't expecting a change, I had a friend help me blind test between the old and new server. Result: No detectable sonic difference. It was my imagination. That saved me any hand wringing over the issue.
 
Spock said:
:D:D:D
:thumbsup:
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MichaelsMinute's comment was incorrect for the reasons I gave in my last post. I explained that I'm open to changing my mind on any given claim, and explained what type of evidence would do that.

But since you seem to agree with him, and I presume you think being close minded is a bad thing, then you'd want to be open
to changing your mind, correct? And you'd want some good way to discern when you are in error, in order to change your mind.


Let's say you believe you heard a difference between two high end cables.

Questions:

1. Could you be wrong in what you perceive?

2. If so, what could lead you to such an error?

3. How would you find out that you are wrong? What method would you accept to demonstrate you've come to a wrong
conclusion based on your subjective perception that "A sounds different than B?"
 
Just another thing to point out.

It's common to see claims like the one Mike made: "But those who have tried multiple cables know they make a huge difference."

This is in tension with the other claim one must have a very "resolving" system in order to hear these differences.

If cables produce "huge" sonic difference, that entails you don't need a Super Resolving Hi-Fi to hear them. Any modest but competent set up can resolve "huge" sonic differences...and even very subtle differences. I have used a variety of monitors in my work, occasionally having to make do with some fairly cheap monitors in a pinch, and it was still no problem hearing all the large and very, very subtle sonic changes I made to the sounds. If cables significantly modify frequency response, or imaging/soundstaging etc, that should be audible in any half-way decent stereo system. I am modifying those characteristics all the time in my work, again sometimes very subtly, and it doesn't take a Super System to hear it.
 
Matt and those who liked his posts, you cannot tell what a speaker sounds like from a spec sheet. First of all Matt goes on to say later that he does do some listening and secondly if you can tell by specs there wouldn't be a need for any audition. You can find speakers in Stereophile that measure close to the same and sound quite different. Plus you cannot measurement aspects of how a speaker will present a sound stage or other relevant factors that would come into play to please a listener. I doubt his Joseph has a flat line response.

Matt would be offended if called a Troll but he keeps the argument going and pretty much contradicts himself. It makes no sense that someone like him has actually listened to cables and heard no difference. For those of us who know there's differences it's like telling us it's midnight when it's actually noon. It makes him look so absurd to us, like he believes the world is flat. He starts out hardline then slowly relents some points he made prior. If cables make no difference why even bother with audiophile hand me downs. You make no sense.

Interesting that a measurement man would stick a CJ preamp on front of a Benchmark. Benchmark for being known as having good measurements but subjectively not being so pleasant to listen to, CJ is sort of the opposite end of the pond sounding very good IMO with a touch of romance depending on unit. The combo is understandable but why Matt would do it is not based on his posted comments.

I love the way deniers try to beat people with DBT, when you actually look at one they want to give about 3 seconds of a song like they are afraid you might just hear something. They also know we all live in other parts of the country or world so the test would never happen. If we do them ourselves then it's not controlled. Matt go back to ASR, bye.

It's also funny how cable companies have a voodoo they can put on customers to make them believe anything. They have a special magic that no other industry seems to be able to get their hands on. Consumers will eventually put a company out of business selling products that don't live up to the claim but cable companies seem to be able use the voodoo to avoid the power of simple economics.

Matt is here to save you all and you don't appreciate it, your so unable to think for yourselves and prone to being made a fool of yet somehow you are all professionals who manage to have the means to buy gear most of us dream of.
 
MattHooper said:
Let's say you believe you heard a difference between two high end cables.

Questions:

1. Could you be wrong in what you perceive?

2. If so, what could lead you to such an error?

3. How would you find out that you are wrong? What method would you accept to demonstrate you've come to a wrong
conclusion based on your subjective perception that "A sounds different than B?"
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Music is about emotion.
Audio gear is about bringing us that emotion.
Forums are (should be) for sharing the hobby and not for winning discussions and presenting arguments that are apparently logical but won´t leave us anywhere and only serve to stop the evolution of those who want to improve the performance of their system.

So I won't answer your questions because that would be feeding what I consider to be the misunderstanding.

Cheers!
 
Spock said:
Music is about emotion.
Audio gear is about bringing us that emotion.
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Music is about emotion. Audio Gear is engineering.

Spock said:
Forums are (should be) for sharing the hobby and not for winning discussions and presenting arguments that are apparently logical but won´t leave us anywhere and only serve to stop the evolution of those who want to improve the performance of their system.

So I won't answer your questions because that would be feeding what I consider to be the misunderstanding.

Cheers!
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I think you won't answer because nobody (that is in the "I Only Use My Ears" camp) has ever answered those questions. Well, some have answered just to say "I can not be wrong."


You say you don't want to be feeding misunderstandings, and yet you voted up a comment that did exactly that. So it seems ok to do that for people you don't disagree with? And to depict others as close minded, while being unwilling to simply explain how your position isn't close minded?

Ok. But I don't think it's taking the high road...
 
Is it just not possible at all for some to resist mischaracterizing and strawmanning?...?


Mr Peabody said:
Matt and those who liked his posts, you cannot tell what a speaker sounds like from a spec sheet.
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That is too generalized a claim. First, nobody should rely soley on manufacturer spec sheets. They are often misleading. (See how Stereophile has measured plenty of speakers and amps showing their actual specs are well off from the marketing. That's why measuring things is actually informative!).

Can measurements tell someone *precisely* everything about how a speaker sounds? The extent to which measurements are informative is obviously going to depend on how knowledgeable and experienced someone is correlating measurements to sound. It may be the case that even the most experienced can be sometimes surprised a bit by a speaker's sound even having seen the measurements. But that doesn't mean measurements predict nothing about how a speaker sounds. Not by a long shot. I find speaker measurements (e.g. Stereophile, Erin's corner, ASR) very often conform quite well (and predict) what I hear. I just demoed some monitors which had a particularly sparkly, slightly bright, spacious quality to the highs, relative to a neutral monitor, and that's exactly what you see in the frequency response measurements.



Mr Peabody said:
First of all Matt goes on to say later that he does do some listening and secondly if you can tell by specs there wouldn't be a need for any audition.
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I didn't say that.

I said, especially in regard to speakers, that if you understand the measurements you can predict *some salient aspects* of the sound. Which is not only the case for people with some experience understanding the measurements, that measurements can have significant predictive character for sound quality is scientifically documented, in much of the research cited by Floyd Toole. I presume you don't want to position yourself as anti-science, I hope?

For myself, I can predict certain aspects of a speaker's sound from some measurements, but not all. I always want to audition a speaker myself, and would never rely just on specs. But that is different from just saying "measurements can't tell you anything about how a speaker will sound." That is just wrong.


Mr Peabody said:
I doubt his Joseph has a flat line response.
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Correct. There is a little rise in the highs. I don't demand perfect neutrality. As I mentioned earlier, one of my favorite speakers are the Devore speakers, which measure pretty wonky in terms of what many ASR members would want.

Really...one can be nuanced about this, and not just stuck in some either/or box.

Mr Peabody said:
Matt would be offended if called a Troll but he keeps the argument going and pretty much contradicts himself. It makes no sense that someone like him has actually listened to cables and heard no difference.
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I'm not saying I have never perceived a difference between cables. In fact recently I did some quick A/B comparison between Nordost and Crystal speaker cable at a friend's place. It seemed to sound a bit different. However, that is to be expected. Given how sighted bias and our attention works, we will often perceive differences that aren't there. "Trust your ears then" will go up the cry. Except that is unfortunately a position ignorant of science and human cognition. To the purely subjective audiophile that will seem weird. "He lacks confidence in his hearing, poor soul." But it's simply acknowledging reality, about how I could be wrong, and when it comes to cables I'd prefer more rigorous evidence. (I have blind tested expensive AC cables that seemed to "obviously" make a difference in my system in sighted conditions, but those differences vanished when I couldn't know which cables were being used).

As I said, I don't blind test everything I buy. I have no problem saying "I think I hear a difference, good enough for me" in some instances. In others, I happen to want to be more sure. You are different, which is fine, and I'm not condemning you at all.


Mr Peabody said:
If cables make no difference why even bother with audiophile hand me downs. You make no sense.
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As I mentioned: They were given to me when I needed some more cables (e.g. when I'd get a new component or whatever). I'm fine using some nice looking cables. I prefer not to pay big money for them on the possibly false pretense they are "better" than cheap cable.

Mr Peabody said:
Interesting that a measurement man would stick a CJ preamp on front of a Benchmark.
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Did you not see that I wrote: "I am not particularly measurement obsessed myself."


Mr Peabody said:
Benchmark for being known as having good measurements but subjectively not being so pleasant to listen to,
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Uhm...that's your opinion not something "known" as some fact. Tons of people LOVE their benchmark gear. Best not to project ;-)


Mr Peabody said:
CJ is sort of the opposite end of the pond sounding very good IMO with a touch of romance depending on unit. The combo is understandable but why Matt would do it is not based on his posted comments.
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I'm a tube amp kinda guy. Love the more lush, organic sound. I also enjoy the combo sometimes of the Benchmark Pre with my CJ monoblocks, it's a nice combination of some SS precision but still enough tube character to make me happy. Mixing and matching gear to achieve certain sonic qualities is not so foreign to you, is it?

Mr Peabody said:
Matt is here to save you all
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You apparently missed that I have said numerous times I'm not here to say anyone here must believe what I believe, or that they need to adopt my (or ASR's) approach (quote):

.......

Now, you may not care about measurements...nobody has to care.

I have no problem with people having different opinions nor I think should you.

Some care to take in this information, some don't, which is fine. It's just a fun hobby for most of us.

You should be able to practice the hobby any way you wish, believe on any grounds you want. I totally support that.

..........

Mr Peabody, I hope you will see that I'm not so easily put in to the box many here keep assuming. People can be nuanced in their position.

Cheers.
 
This guy recently spent days defending Amir on Audiogon. 29 pages of the same garbage. Best to ignore. Username is prof on Audiogon.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
 
TheGemState said:
This guy recently spent days defending Amir on Audiogon. 29 pages of the same garbage. Best to ignore. Username is prof on Audiogon.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
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Why so hot under the collar? I suppose it's difficult for some to tolerate other opinions. It's audio, not politics.
 
Like Charles, I have been reading this thread... and my head hurts.

I have determined that Matt has decided that everybody in the AudioShark world needs his saving from us wasting money on cables.

I certainly do not claim to know all nor claim to have the best gear. I have what works for me and update as needs and/or desires dictate. I have been at friends' houses with some ultimate type of gear (way beyond my means or desires) while cable shoot outs were taking place. All way beyond anything I would ever consider, however there were obvious but subtle improvements. It is up to each person to determine how much of a difference is worth the cost, and also how much my particular setup could benefit from such cables.

I determined a long time ago that better cables do improve my system, to a point. There certainly are diminishing returns depending on level of cable :).

I also put forth the proposition that if your gear level and means qualify for the best then there certainly are viable and real differences.

I do find it absolutely amazing that a new user comes on this forum and every post made is in some way trying to save us from spending our money on "snake oil". He even tries to get into a pissing match with the owner of this forum; maybe unaware of who Mike is? Mike also owns maybe the top high end audio B&M store in the country, certainly on the east coast :). But he definitely sounds like someone in need of saving to me :roflmao:.

BTW, Neil deGrasse Tyson's quote (check my sig) definitely apply when conversing with someone such as this.
 
For a minute I thought I was back at Audio Review- Cables Forum arguing with Mtrykraft and others. If I did not miss something, it took all of 10 years to have the first "Cable Pissing" thread here at the Shark. Kudos for it taking that long. Lets hope it is the last one for a while. If you don't agree with a thread, post your opinions why and move on.

This place needs to remain the best forum on the net!
 
Randy Myers said:
Like Charles, I have been reading this thread... and my head hurts.

I have determined that Matt has decided that everybody in the AudioShark world needs his saving from us wasting money on cables.
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Then you, like others, are simply not paying attention. It suggest you are filtering everything through a tribalistic bias "He's voiced skepticism about something I believe! I Must Put Him In The Us Vs Them Box!" (And ignore anything Matt wrote to the contrary).

I have literally said the opposite of what you "decided." I reminded people in a post just above yours. Here are quotes from me, again:

Now, you may not care about measurements...nobody has to care.

I have no problem with people having different opinions nor I think should you.

Some care to take in this information, some don't, which is fine. It's just a fun hobby for most of us.

You should be able to practice the hobby any way you wish, believe on any grounds you want. I totally support that.
 
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