Thread: I call out Stealth Cables and Apology to Cable Deniers....

Is it just not possible at all for some to resist mischaracterizing and strawmanning?...?

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Matt and those who liked his posts, you cannot tell what a speaker sounds like from a spec sheet.

That is too generalized a claim. First, nobody should rely soley on manufacturer spec sheets. They are often misleading. (See how Stereophile has measured plenty of speakers and amps showing their actual specs are well off from the marketing. That's why measuring things is actually informative!).

Can measurements tell someone *precisely* everything about how a speaker sounds? The extent to which measurements are informative is obviously going to depend on how knowledgeable and experienced someone is correlating measurements to sound. It may be the case that even the most experienced can be sometimes surprised a bit by a speaker's sound even having seen the measurements. But that doesn't mean measurements predict nothing about how a speaker sounds. Not by a long shot. I find speaker measurements (e.g. Stereophile, Erin's corner, ASR) very often conform quite well (and predict) what I hear. I just demoed some monitors which had a particularly sparkly, slightly bright, spacious quality to the highs, relative to a neutral monitor, and that's exactly what you see in the frequency response measurements.

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

First of all Matt goes on to say later that he does do some listening and secondly if you can tell by specs there wouldn't be a need for any audition.

I didn't say that.

I said, especially in regard to speakers, that if you understand the measurements you can predict *some salient aspects* of the sound. Which is not only the case for people with some experience understanding the measurements, that measurements can have significant predictive character for sound quality is scientifically documented, in much of the research cited by Floyd Toole. I presume you don't want to position yourself as anti-science, I hope?

For myself, I can predict certain aspects of a speaker's sound from some measurements, but not all. I always want to audition a speaker myself, and would never rely just on specs. But that is different from just saying "measurements can't tell you anything about how a speaker will sound." That is just wrong.

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

I doubt his Joseph has a flat line response.

Correct. There is a little rise in the highs. I don't demand perfect neutrality. As I mentioned earlier, one of my favorite speakers are the Devore speakers, which measure pretty wonky in terms of what many ASR members would want.

Really...one can be nuanced about this, and not just stuck in some either/or box.

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Matt would be offended if called a Troll but he keeps the argument going and pretty much contradicts himself. It makes no sense that someone like him has actually listened to cables and heard no difference.

I'm not saying I have never perceived a difference between cables. In fact recently I did some quick A/B comparison between Nordost and Crystal speaker cable at a friend's place. It seemed to sound a bit different. However, that is to be expected. Given how sighted bias and our attention works, we will often perceive differences that aren't there. "Trust your ears then" will go up the cry. Except that is unfortunately a position ignorant of science and human cognition. To the purely subjective audiophile that will seem weird. "He lacks confidence in his hearing, poor soul." But it's simply acknowledging reality, about how I could be wrong, and when it comes to cables I'd prefer more rigorous evidence. (I have blind tested expensive AC cables that seemed to "obviously" make a difference in my system in sighted conditions, but those differences vanished when I couldn't know which cables were being used).

As I said, I don't blind test everything I buy. I have no problem saying "I think I hear a difference, good enough for me" in some instances. In others, I happen to want to be more sure. You are different, which is fine, and I'm not condemning you at all.

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

If cables make no difference why even bother with audiophile hand me downs. You make no sense.

As I mentioned: They were given to me when I needed some more cables (e.g. when I'd get a new component or whatever). I'm fine using some nice looking cables. I prefer not to pay big money for them on the possibly false pretense they are "better" than cheap cable.

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Interesting that a measurement man would stick a CJ preamp on front of a Benchmark.

Did you not see that I wrote: "I am not particularly measurement obsessed myself."

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Benchmark for being known as having good measurements but subjectively not being so pleasant to listen to,

Uhm...that's your opinion not something "known" as some fact. Tons of people LOVE their benchmark gear. Best not to project ;-)

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

CJ is sort of the opposite end of the pond sounding very good IMO with a touch of romance depending on unit. The combo is understandable but why Matt would do it is not based on his posted comments.

I'm a tube amp kinda guy. Love the more lush, organic sound. I also enjoy the combo sometimes of the Benchmark Pre with my CJ monoblocks, it's a nice combination of some SS precision but still enough tube character to make me happy. Mixing and matching gear to achieve certain sonic qualities is not so foreign to you, is it?

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Matt is here to save you all

You apparently missed that I have said numerous times I'm not here to say anyone here must believe what I believe, or that they need to adopt my (or ASR's) approach (quote):

.......

Now, you may not care about measurements...nobody has to care.

I have no problem with people having different opinions nor I think should you.

Some care to take in this information, some don't, which is fine. It's just a fun hobby for most of us.

You should be able to practice the hobby any way you wish, believe on any grounds you want. I totally support that.

..........

Mr Peabody, I hope you will see that I'm not so easily put in to the box many here keep assuming. People can be nuanced in their position.

Cheers.

This guy recently spent days defending Amir on Audiogon. 29 pages of the same garbage. Best to ignore. Username is prof on Audiogon.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by TheGemState

This guy recently spent days defending Amir on Audiogon. 29 pages of the same garbage. Best to ignore. Username is prof on Audiogon.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

Why so hot under the collar? I suppose it's difficult for some to tolerate other opinions. It's audio, not politics.

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

Like Charles, I have been reading this thread... and my head hurts.

I have determined that Matt has decided that everybody in the AudioShark world needs his saving from us wasting money on cables.

Then you, like others, are simply not paying attention. It suggest you are filtering everything through a tribalistic bias "He's voiced skepticism about something I believe! I Must Put Him In The Us Vs Them Box!" (And ignore anything Matt wrote to the contrary).

I have literally said the opposite of what you "decided." I reminded people in a post just above yours. Here are quotes from me, again:

Now, you may not care about measurements...nobody has to care.

I have no problem with people having different opinions nor I think should you.

Some care to take in this information, some don't, which is fine. It's just a fun hobby for most of us.

You should be able to practice the hobby any way you wish, believe on any grounds you want. I totally support that.

Originally Posted by CPP

Its better to read it with a shot glass of your fav whiskey, it eases the pain.

Believe me: shots of whiskey were necessary on all sides ;-)

What would you guys do if you liked how a component sounded in your system but measured poorly? What if you liked how a component sounded in your system but it got poor reviews?

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

Hi - is that a serious question? Who cares how something measures? And I sure as heck don't care what deaf people on the forums think who are unable to hear or think for themselves and thus require measurements to tell them what to think.

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

I find these threads fascinating and entertaining to observe the psyche of some of these people. It is so entertaining to watch how people act (usually the same ones over and over).

Like how some people ^^^^ react when someone doesn't share all your audio beliefs...so you find yourself calling other audiophiles "deaf" and "unable to think for themselves?"

Yes there is some "interesting" psychology to observe in audiophile circles.

Originally Posted by stereogeek

What would you guys do if you liked how a component sounded in your system but measured poorly? What if you liked how a component sounded in your system but it got poor reviews?

Since you asked...

I have products in my system that measure impeccably, e.g. Benchmark gear. I also have gear that measures far from great, e.g. my vinyl set up is not going to be anywhere close to digital in terms of measured performance, my CJ tube amps are measurably inferior to any half decent solid state amp, and one of my favourite amps I ever owned (sold it not long ago) was the classic Eico HF-81 which measures almost laughably in some respects (see Stereophile measurements).

And yet I LOVE the way that "poorer measuring" gear sounds in my system. I've had various additional amps come and go, but I've kept my CJ tube amps for over 20 years. They aren't leaving.

One speaker I owned were MBL 121 Radialstrahler omnis. Very low sensitivity, not an easy load to say the least, and I had various amps on them from 140w/push pull tubes to beefy solid state amps and yet my favourite combo? The little 14W Eico tube integrated! It fleshed out the sound in a glorious way (and since my room wasn't too big I didn't need tons of power volume-wise).

Further, one of my favourite all time speakers (that I almost purchased instead of my Joseph speakers) are the Devore O/96, which measures "poorly" by the lights of the ASR crowd, but I absolutely love it's particular sonic characteristics.

Unlike some here, I can completely understand why various audiophiles seek out and use measurements to help guide their purchase. It suits their goals, and many find great happiness in that approach. Personally though, while I look to measurements in some areas, ultimately I just go with what I prefer. There are many ways of doing this hobby, and other people don't need to be derided for taking the approach that makes them happy.

Originally Posted by Mikado463

Wow Mickey, what an incredibly stupid post, even from you !

It was a troll thread to begin with. It just continues.

Some of us tried to introduce some actual thoughtful conversation. But it's not going to happen from the OP who seems mostly to be of the "anything that gets me clicks so bring it on haters!" youtuber mindset, and pretty much exemplifies why normal folk roll their eyes at audiophiles. You get all that snobby elitism: "I declare these expensive audio tweaks make a MAJOR difference and anyone skeptical is deaf, don't have my level of experience, or they don't own equipment as great as mine."

Standard issue Golden Ears put-downs. But it's nice to see not everyone on the forum follows suit. :-). Cheers.

I will call it for what it really is......cables are tone controls. Don't believe me? Come over....Cheers.

Originally Posted by stereogeek

I will call it for what it really is......cables are tone controls. Don't believe me? Come over....Cheers.

I think that IF a cable were changing the sound, then it would be a tone control. Fairly amazing how much money some audiophiles will pay for making a wire a tone control (and in many cases I think they are likely paying for their imagination :-) )

Originally Posted by Porsche

OR Maybe the cables are making the system more neutral,

Either way it would be a tone control - whether it makes a system more or less neutral, right?

Originally Posted by Porsche

sounds like you are an expert on the matter.

I work in pro sound, but I'm not an expert in electronics. So I take seriously what experts say on the matter (and generally not the ones trying to sell me their product).

Originally Posted by Porsche

with your thought than all of our systems have tone controls since they are all wired one way or another

No, because as I said, I think in many cases the cables are not altering the sound. Cables and electronic transmission are not new technology, we've been using them for over a century. The theory and practice is well understood among the relevant experts.

Audiophile companies wanting to sell you multi-thousand dollar cables (a product sector that has among the highest mark up) will of course tell you differently.

Originally Posted by Porsche

im glad your system is wire with zip cord for speakers and $2 interconnects, enjoy

Yeah, that's a pretty typical response. Just the type of snobbery and "price shaming" that gives audiophiles a bad name. Well done.

(And of course you have no idea what cables I've had...and still have...in my system...)

Originally Posted by Porsche

snobbery, price shaming, not at all, use whatever you want.

Of course it was the typical snobbery and price shaming. It was what it was.

Originally Posted by Porsche

however, pot meet kettle, who are the one talking about cables are tone controls

It was stereogeek who said they were tone controls. I only pointed out that IF a cable is changing the sound (and often changes in highs, mids, bass are ascribed to cables), then yes that can be seen as a sort of tone control. What is incorrect about that?

Originally Posted by Porsche

I'm not an audiophile,

Oh c'mon. Your equipment is listed right under your name! Regular old music lovers don't buy that type of gear and hang out on audio forums ;-)

Originally Posted by Porsche

I do not audition equipment and a/b shit all day long, I like great sound and what I have works for me but I do not need to hear from you or anyone else how I may be "imagining" what I hear

Ok so you want to ignore, or not learn, common scientific facts about human perception. I didn't say YOU are imagining sonic differences. But the fact is you COULD be imagining sonic differences with your cables. Why get upset about facts concerning how our brains work?

I have experience finding out I imagined sonic differences, and experience seeing other people imagine differences that weren't there. Personally, I find that educational, not a threat to my ego or psyche or enjoyment of audio. But if someone has staked their reputation (e.g. a reviewer), or just their buying habits or self-perception as a listener on assuming what they hear is always true, I guess facts like that are perceived as some sort of insult...which really is a misunderstanding.

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

I agree, even with lower end cables. You want Bright, PBJs. You want Bass, Groneburg

Boy that's SO true about the PBJ's. One time on a lark, I got a pair of PBJ's and Hero's of the same length, and WOW there was a huge difference, immediately noticed and undeniable. While the PBJ's sounded exciting at first, when I got agitated with them rather quickly and swapped in the Hero's, I immediately appreciated how much more natural - and far BETTER - the Hero's sounded.

Call it what you will: cables as tone controls, or cables not capable of doing anything positive but capable of doing varying negative things, etc... Whatever you call it, a system with one set at a time of different cables swapped in, all other things being equal, definitely CAN (and quite often DOES) sound different. And this particular experiment compared cables not too far off in cost and toward the budget end of the cable spectrum. I can only imagine comparing PBJ's to TOTL Kimber, Shunyata, AQ, or Stealth cables....

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

What degree do, you, have? I didn't see where one is required. You and Matt need to get a room. Matt is the one you don't know. A forum troll whose name was Terry but who knows if that was even true. No one dissects a post and loves to argue like Terry. Not the person who want to aspire to.

Sorry, but could you explain. Are you:

1. Calling me a "troll"

and

2. Claiming that I am someone called "Terry?" (Or that I am someone who used that screen name somewhere)?

Because both are false, so I hope you can clear that up.

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

That's what I suspect by his replies and behavior.

Calling someone a "Troll" for expressing a different opinion than yours (and politely, btw!), and going on to falsely accuse someone of dishonestly adopting different screen names, is a pretty extreme reaction. (And doesn't to much to elevate conversation in a forum). My screen name on ASR is MattHooper, on WBF it's "COF." On audiogon it is "prof." My screen name has been consistent on each site I'm a member.

And note I didn't jump in to just any conversation about cables or whatever to be some party pooper. It's when a thread is expressly concerning these subjects - e.g. "snake oil, challenge to cable deniers, blind test results" that I will give my view on that subject. And just because I hold some level of skepticism, some seem triggered in to assuming that is "trolling." Trolling is not having and defending a certain viewpoint. Trolling is characterized by posts made specifically to inflame or insult others, and Trolls don't carefully engage the points someone has made in replies, which is a way of showing respect in the conversation: Trolls tend to not reply to points made against their position, and resort ONLY to snark or baiting insults. Any fair minded look at my posts show I am honest in what I believe, that I carefully address points made against my position, and that I have continually pointed out I'm not trying to force anything on anyone and I respect everyone's right to hold different opinions and practice this hobby any way they wish.

If just making a case for some skepticism about some audiophile claims is enough to trigger this type of response, it suggests that the dogmatism is not coming from my view.

Why not reply with reasons instead of personal attacks? Unless you can give evidence I've used the other screen name you claim - "Terry?" - then you are just using cheap shots and ad hominem instead of civil conversation. Would you like to retract your unfounded claim?