Welcome to the AudioShark Forums.
Results 1 to 44 of 44
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    180

    How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    I am seeing more and more very expensive amps and integrated amps with Class D based output stages. The approach seems to be a bigger/better power supply, and a front end of their own design compared to mid fi offering. I might be oversimplifying things by believing this approach is a less demanding design and consruction process.
    What is your take on this?
    Main System: Analog - Linn LP12, Origin Live DC motor and Controller, SME V arm, Benz Ruby H 2 cartridge, Wright Sound preamp. Digital - Intel NUC I-7, 16 gig ram, Jriver media center 24, Wyrd4 Sound 2V2 SE Dac, Fathom Hard Drives.
    H-Cat Version 9 preamp, ARC Reference 75 amp, Custom line source speakers - 10 SB Acoustics midwoofers, 10 Fountek ribbon tweeters. JL Audio Fathom f112 Subs
    Wire - T G Audio, Siltech, Audioquest, Teo, Lewis silver foil.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    354

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Class 'D' is a rapidly developing technology, with everything from hearing aids to TV sets using Class 'D'. But a high quality Class 'D' audio amplifier still takes a highly skilled design engineer. But yes parts costs should be lower and construction process be less demanding.

  3. #3

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    If the amp sounds good then it sounds good

    I could care less what operating class it is....

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    chicago burbs
    Posts
    267

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Class D is very inexpensive and companies will have to do things to justify top dollar prices.
    Meridian dsp8000 se upgrade, meridian 218 zone controller, VA Beethovens, , Hegel h360, rega jupiter, roon nucleus, revox tuner.

  5. #5
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    17,318

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    If they can make them sound great, Iím all for it. As long as itís not to the exclusion of other topologies.
    Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Avantgarde Duo XD, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.

    Luxman 590AX Mark II, Job INTegrated.

    Conrad Johnson GAT2, Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE Stage 2, Misho Myronov Wooden pre.

    Misho Myronov Wooden amp, First Watt SIT-3 (x 2 - one as backup), First Watt F7, Job 250 Monos, Valvet E2se, NuForce STA200, AkitikA GT-102 amp, ASL Wave monos, Dennis Had 45 monos. Absolute Audio Labs PCF 25 amp (improved First Watt F7 super clone)

    RME Audio ADI-2 DAC FS, Lumin U1 mini, ModWright Ultimate Sony XA-5400ES, Audio Mirror Tubadour III NOS R2R Tube Dac w/ SE upgrades.

    Burmester 948, McIntosh MCLK12, Kimber Kable, Siltech, Cardas, Avanti Audio cables.

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Posts
    97

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    I use multiple Ncores per side and am quite pleased. Sometimes, however, I do feel like I'm in a class (d) all by myself :-)
    Aurender N100H > Cary DAC 200ts > Audio Research Ref 6
    SoundField 1812 Quintessential
    Additional Rhythmik 15s for the neighbors....

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Tampa
    Posts
    1,513

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    If the amp sounds good then it sounds good
    I could care less what operating class it is....
    Well then, you're obviously not a true subjectivist. One who has to know a mountain of objective metrics like current, op amp, power supply, price, weight, copper purity, sample rates, what grade aluminum, etc, etc, etc.
    To then declare, "Its all subjective".

    cheers,

    AJ

  8. #8

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    I'm perfectly happy with my ATI AT542NC Class D amp in the main system, and just signed up for more in my new theater installation. As for the comment about commanding top tier prices, who cares if they don't? If I can power my system for $3k or $6k instead of $10k+, and it doesn't have any sonic issues to my ears, I'm perfectly happy to pocket the difference. Otherwise it's just spending more so you can say you spent more. And frankly, the top tier Class D amps now objectively measure just as good as, if not better than, the top tier Class A and A/B amps. Maybe some issues with ultra HF switching frequency, but I haven't heard it in the output. And the newest GaN topologies may well put that item to bed too. The Purifi modules and the NC500 and NC1200 modules are definitely worth a listen. Double blind if you can, just to eliminate the expectation bias that might come with a Class D unit in the loop...
    Jeff

    My System
    Streamer/Server: Aurender N100H; Disc Player: Oppo UDP-205; DAC: PS Audio Directstream Jr; Preamp: Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE Stage 2; Power Amp: ATI AT542NC; Speakers: Focal Sopra No. 3; Cables:
    Wireworld, Kimber, Cullin; Power: Ansuz Mainz8 X-TC, PS Audio Dectet, Furutech outlets

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Silicon Valley
    Posts
    2,406

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Personally, if I could get a Class D amp with as much power and that sounded as good as my Pass then I would buy it in a heartbeat. The heat created by the Pass amps in the summer is more than I can handle. However, I love Pass in the winter.
    Bud

    Lumin X1
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR for preamp, Denali 2000 (2) for amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    100

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Never wanted a Class D amp in my system, till I tried one. :-)
    Aavik U-300, YG Acoustics Hailey, Aurender N10, dCS Rossini, Oppo BDP103D (audiopraise board), Ansuz Mainz 8 D2

  11. #11

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike B. View Post
    I am seeing more and more very expensive amps and integrated amps with Class D based output stages. The approach seems to be a bigger/better power supply, and a front end of their own design compared to mid fi offering. I might be oversimplifying things by believing this approach is a less demanding design and consruction process.
    What is your take on this?
    There will always be manufacturers that want to sell to the very well heeled who demand very costly cases, socketry, power supply etc to justify this high cost. Nothing wrong with that - it happens with all Classes of ss and tube amp. These brands are likely to have incorporated the base Class D module with their own mods to suit their "house sound" or to best match their other products.

    Other brands that expect huge sales volumes can do the same at much lower cost because their R&D cost can be spread over thousands rather than dozens of units. Some of us turn up our noses as these "common" brands, but their amps may well be just as good sounding, reliable and well built as the "cottage industry" very costly ones.

    What gives Class D a bad reputation are the "cheap" offerings that bung a standard module into a box with minimal quality of other parts of the amp - the sort of thing you'll find offered for a few hundred bucks on Ebay. A GOOD Class D is now as good as any technology and manufacturers can tweak the sound to mimic for example SETs probably better than they could using Class A or A/B circuits.

    Overall Class D has the advantage of demanding MUCH LESS power from the AC supply so its power supply doesn't need to be anywhere near as BIG - although it needs to be just as GOOD. This significantly reduces build cost and the smaller space needed and lack of cooling devices, etc can reduce case size and therefore more cost saving. And the owner will reduce his electricity bill over many years so can afford to buy a more costly Class D than Class A or SET for the same long-time cost!

    I like My NAD Master Series! Sounds great - sensible price!
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M32, NAD M12, Accuphase A36, Consonance Cyber 845, Gamut D200 Mk III
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo (aesthetically modified), Martin Logan Expression 13A

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    birmingham uk
    Posts
    533

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    many years ago on a hi fi forum i used class D amps , some used to chide me and get some proper amps . so another 10 years later of class A , class AB etc we are back to class D here . sounds pretty fine to me and a lot smaller and more convenient than many amps . both are icepower and rather good i might add
    1]bel canto pre 3 vbs ice power amps . rotel cd , modright modded jolida dac 2] tannoy eaton legacy 2]bel canto pre 3vbs BC ref 500s black ice modded dac , marantz sa8005, reference fidelity impulse Ta`us horns

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    513

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    The new Merrill Element series amps look interesting, not inexpensive though.

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    354

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    Personally, if I could get a Class D amp with as much power and that sounded as good as my Pass then I would buy it in a heartbeat. The heat created by the Pass amps in the summer is more than I can handle. However, I love Pass in the winter.
    Pass amplifiers are engineered to have a very euphonic sound.
    For Class 'D' amplifiers, the goal is an accurate sound.
    There is no reasonable way for a Class 'D' amplifier to have a Pass like euphonic sound.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    180

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    I owned a pair of Channel Islands D200 amps about 6-8 years back. I had them for summer use. They operated flawlessly and were revealing with powerful bass performance. I think they were based on older Hypex modules? After some time I realized I was listening much less to them. I never got emotionally involved. That probably says more about me and my tastes than about the amps.
    Main System: Analog - Linn LP12, Origin Live DC motor and Controller, SME V arm, Benz Ruby H 2 cartridge, Wright Sound preamp. Digital - Intel NUC I-7, 16 gig ram, Jriver media center 24, Wyrd4 Sound 2V2 SE Dac, Fathom Hard Drives.
    H-Cat Version 9 preamp, ARC Reference 75 amp, Custom line source speakers - 10 SB Acoustics midwoofers, 10 Fountek ribbon tweeters. JL Audio Fathom f112 Subs
    Wire - T G Audio, Siltech, Audioquest, Teo, Lewis silver foil.

  16. #16

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike B. View Post
    I owned a pair of Channel Islands D200 amps about 6-8 years back. I had them for summer use. They operated flawlessly and were revealing with powerful bass performance. I think they were based on older Hypex modules? After some time I realized I was listening much less to them. I never got emotionally involved. That probably says more about me and my tastes than about the amps.
    Class D has improved massively over those 6-8 years. I had a Red Wine Signature 30-2, a dreadful Tripath amp compared with modern Class D such as DirectDigital, Purifi and others.

    Pass Labs and other Class A amps require a nuclear power station to keep them going and (in this day and age) really is a bit of an irresponsible purchase, specially if left running 24/7 if one has any consideration for the environment.
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M32, NAD M12, Accuphase A36, Consonance Cyber 845, Gamut D200 Mk III
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo (aesthetically modified), Martin Logan Expression 13A

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    The Gem State
    Posts
    183

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    My Class A Accuphase amp draws 158 watts at idle or at full power. I wouldnít call that irresponsible. My electricity costs $.10 per kW, so even if I left it running 24 hours/day the daily cost is under $0.38.
    Gary
    Accuphase E-650; Lumin A1; Tannoy Canterbury GR

  18. #18

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oly View Post
    My Class A Accuphase amp draws 158 watts at idle or at full power. I wouldnít call that irresponsible. My electricity costs $.10 per kW, so even if I left it running 24 hours/day the daily cost is under $0.38.
    My Accuphas A36 Class A (the smallest they make) uses 155 watts at idle, but 270 "in accordance with IEC 60065" whatever that is, but I suspect a much more realistic wattage.

    The Accuphase is relatively efficient for Class A but it still gets hot. Many Class A owners complain at the heat output in summer (adding to AC requirements) but welcome in winter! EU versions require that they switch into standby (not just idle) after a period of no signal input - a legal EU requirement for environmental reasons.
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M32, NAD M12, Accuphase A36, Consonance Cyber 845, Gamut D200 Mk III
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo (aesthetically modified), Martin Logan Expression 13A

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    The Gem State
    Posts
    183

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    158 watts is what I measure using my inline watt meter not from something printed on a spec sheet.
    Gary
    Accuphase E-650; Lumin A1; Tannoy Canterbury GR

  20. #20
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Location
    England
    Posts
    10

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Class D amps still have that negative general perception as to the SQ but slowly the perception is eroding because of new ClassD amps emerging on the bloc. From my point of view I have heard the ATC SCM40 with the ATC SIA2-100 amp (& Dac) at the Bristol HiFi show and was smitten. But I do not have the finance to stretch to an amp costing £2,500.00. So I looked at Nord amps (ClassD) and there is a versatile Dac, namely the Nord One SE INT-C N 252MP Integrated Amp (Class D) 200wts x 8ohms, price £699 and German RME AD1-2 FS Dac & headphone amp price £729. Together I have Amp & Dac for £1,428 that is £1072 less than the ATC amp & Dac, also this Nord amp can give 200wts at 8ohms instead of just 100 wts at 8ohms of the ATC amp which in theory should exploit more deeply the talents of the speakers. Reviews of Nord amps seem positive even sometimes gushing as to SQ, so such as above is the attraction of Class D amp for me. However the hidden snag for me is one buys direct from Nord the amp & dac without any audition, and the 14day return if not satisfied offer from Nord is not really an assurance but more of an hasstle and headache for me, so there is a big element of risk for me. I wish Nord sold amps like AVI use to sell speaker systemsin that they have a thread in forum where users offer to have their amps auditioned in their homes for aspiring new owners. Decisions, decisions!

  21. #21
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    17,318

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Iím sure the new Nord amps are great.

    I have an RME ADI-2 FS dac and itís outstanding. Not a soft or sweet sound but clean, clear, 3D, open, smooth and quiet sound. I love the choice of filters and treble and bass control. It does so much more than Iíll ever understand how to use.

    I wanted a versatile solid state dac alternative to my Audio Mirror Tubadour III SE that I could leave on all the time and help break in gear too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfoot View Post
    Class D amps still have that negative general perception as to the SQ but slowly the perception is eroding because of new ClassD amps emerging on the bloc. From my point of view I have heard the ATC SCM40 with the ATC SIA2-100 amp (& Dac) at the Bristol HiFi show and was smitten. But I do not have the finance to stretch to an amp costing £2,500.00. So I looked at Nord amps (ClassD) and there is a versatile Dac, namely the Nord One SE INT-C N 252MP Integrated Amp (Class D) 200wts x 8ohms, price £699 and German RME AD1-2 FS Dac & headphone amp price £729. Together I have Amp & Dac for £1,428 that is £1072 less than the ATC amp & Dac, also this Nord amp can give 200wts at 8ohms instead of just 100 wts at 8ohms of the ATC amp which in theory should exploit more deeply the talents of the speakers. Reviews of Nord amps seem positive even sometimes gushing as to SQ, so such as above is the attraction of Class D amp for me. However the hidden snag for me is one buys direct from Nord the amp & dac without any audition, and the 14day return if not satisfied offer from Nord is not really an assurance but more of an hasstle and headache for me, so there is a big element of risk for me. I wish Nord sold amps like AVI use to sell speaker systemsin that they have a thread in forum where users offer to have their amps auditioned in their homes for aspiring new owners. Decisions, decisions!
    Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Avantgarde Duo XD, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.

    Luxman 590AX Mark II, Job INTegrated.

    Conrad Johnson GAT2, Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE Stage 2, Misho Myronov Wooden pre.

    Misho Myronov Wooden amp, First Watt SIT-3 (x 2 - one as backup), First Watt F7, Job 250 Monos, Valvet E2se, NuForce STA200, AkitikA GT-102 amp, ASL Wave monos, Dennis Had 45 monos. Absolute Audio Labs PCF 25 amp (improved First Watt F7 super clone)

    RME Audio ADI-2 DAC FS, Lumin U1 mini, ModWright Ultimate Sony XA-5400ES, Audio Mirror Tubadour III NOS R2R Tube Dac w/ SE upgrades.

    Burmester 948, McIntosh MCLK12, Kimber Kable, Siltech, Cardas, Avanti Audio cables.

  22. #22
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Location
    England
    Posts
    10

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeinid View Post
    Iím sure the new Nord amps are great.

    I have an RME ADI-2 FS dac and itís outstanding. Not a soft or sweet sound but clean, clear, 3D, open, smooth and quiet sound. I love the choice of filters and treble and bass control. It does so much more than Iíll ever understand how to use.

    I wanted a versatile solid state dac alternative to my Audio Mirror Tubadour III SE that I could leave on all the time and help break in gear too.

    Thank you for the above and your specific descriptions of the DAC. I was reading your sytem description at the bottom of your post. Does it all relate to one system or is more than one system?

  23. #23
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    17,318

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    I swap components in and out as my mood strikes me. Some pieces stay in longer than others but everything gets a turn. It helps keep things fresh.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfoot View Post
    Thank you for the above and your specific descriptions of the DAC. I was reading your sytem description at the bottom of your post. Does it all relate to one system or is more than one system?
    Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Avantgarde Duo XD, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.

    Luxman 590AX Mark II, Job INTegrated.

    Conrad Johnson GAT2, Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE Stage 2, Misho Myronov Wooden pre.

    Misho Myronov Wooden amp, First Watt SIT-3 (x 2 - one as backup), First Watt F7, Job 250 Monos, Valvet E2se, NuForce STA200, AkitikA GT-102 amp, ASL Wave monos, Dennis Had 45 monos. Absolute Audio Labs PCF 25 amp (improved First Watt F7 super clone)

    RME Audio ADI-2 DAC FS, Lumin U1 mini, ModWright Ultimate Sony XA-5400ES, Audio Mirror Tubadour III NOS R2R Tube Dac w/ SE upgrades.

    Burmester 948, McIntosh MCLK12, Kimber Kable, Siltech, Cardas, Avanti Audio cables.

  24. #24

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Peter Madnick brought out a Class D amp for Audio Alchemy, which he took over to Elac under their brand name. My dealer had one of the last under the old Audio Alchemy label and I bought it when I put a nice second system in the living room that my wife could play without dealing with a bunch of different switches and buttons. It powers one of the early prototypes of the great TAD CR-1's (called the CM-1's) which my dealer had in storage from nearly a decade ago and sold the combo for a very good price. Nice combination. He also had a Devialet class D preamp/amp demo that he let us try, but it was way too complicated for her to use. Both the Audio Alchemy and Devialet seem to be good matches for the TAD. I've had a pair of flea watt Cary SET amps for my Avantgarde Duos in the music room for almost two decades so the Class D is very different.

    Larry
    Analog-VPIClassic3-3DArm,SoundsmithZephyrII+MiyajimaZeroMono,2xAmpex ATR-102,Doshi3.0 Herron VTPH-2A&BottleheadPhonoPre,
    Dig Rip-Pyramix,IzotopeRX3Adv,MykerinosCard,PacMicroModel2
    Dig Play-Lampi Pacific, mch NADAC Roon/HQPlayer,Oppo105
    Electronics-Herron 360Pre,CJ MET1mchPre,Cary2A3monoamps
    Speakers-AvantgardeDuosLR,3SolosC,LR,RR
    Other-Symmetrical Power&ArtKelmGroundOneIsoTrans,AudioDiskVinylClean er,AirTightRecordFlattener, Scott Rust cables
    Music-15KRecs(90%classical),1KR2Rtapes,1.5KCD's,500SACDs ,50TBripped files

  25. #25

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Quote Originally Posted by astrotoy View Post
    Peter I've had a pair of flea watt Cary SET amps for my Avantgarde Duos in the music room for almost two decades so the Class D is very different.

    Larry
    Hello Larry. Always good to hear from a fellow Avantgarde owner.

    Out of interest, have you tried your AGs powered by the Class D amps? I had a loan Diavelet a while back and thought it pretty good, though I kept my 845 mono SETs in the end. However a bit later I decided to look for a SS amp to replace the tubes. Lots of amps tried and tested, but I settled on NAD Master Series M32 and am pretty happy with it, although likely to move to M33 when stocks available - or something else. Peter
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M32, NAD M12, Accuphase A36, Consonance Cyber 845, Gamut D200 Mk III
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo (aesthetically modified), Martin Logan Expression 13A

  26. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Tampa
    Posts
    1,513

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeinid View Post
    I have an RME ADI-2 FS dac and it’s outstanding. Not a soft or sweet sound but clean, clear, 3D, open, smooth and quiet sound. I love the choice of filters and treble and bass control. It does so much more than I’ll ever understand how to use.
    Nice, how long have you had? I think it actually has presets iirc, so you can just touch a button with a slight HF and or/bass boost contour for bright recording and instantly becomes listenable.
    Careful Joe, that's dangerously 21st century and non-torturous, your audiophile card may be in jeopardy!

    cheers,

    AJ

  27. #27
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    17,318

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    I was debating about letting the cat out of the bag just for that reason. Iíve had it a little more than 2 weeks and I am very impressed. Iím using the NOS filter at the moment and previously experimented with the treble setting, cutting it a little. Wow! And to add to the horror, Iíve been using the RME direct to my amps, specifically the SIT3 lately and enjoying the heck out of the combo.

    All the reviews are great and I had been looking at it for a while. The feature set drove me over the edge. Iím very happy with it.

    I think I gave up my audiophile card a long time ago. Thereís so much moderately priced gear out there thatís killer - you just have to look for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Nice, how long have you had? I think it actually has presets iirc, so you can just touch a button with a slight HF and or/bass boost contour for bright recording and instantly becomes listenable.
    Careful Joe, that's dangerously 21st century and non-torturous, your audiophile card may be in jeopardy!

    cheers,

    AJ
    Last edited by joeinid; June 7, 2020 at 03:40 PM.
    Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Avantgarde Duo XD, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.

    Luxman 590AX Mark II, Job INTegrated.

    Conrad Johnson GAT2, Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE Stage 2, Misho Myronov Wooden pre.

    Misho Myronov Wooden amp, First Watt SIT-3 (x 2 - one as backup), First Watt F7, Job 250 Monos, Valvet E2se, NuForce STA200, AkitikA GT-102 amp, ASL Wave monos, Dennis Had 45 monos. Absolute Audio Labs PCF 25 amp (improved First Watt F7 super clone)

    RME Audio ADI-2 DAC FS, Lumin U1 mini, ModWright Ultimate Sony XA-5400ES, Audio Mirror Tubadour III NOS R2R Tube Dac w/ SE upgrades.

    Burmester 948, McIntosh MCLK12, Kimber Kable, Siltech, Cardas, Avanti Audio cables.

  28. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Tampa
    Posts
    1,513

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    There may be no hope then

  29. #29
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    17,318

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Guilty as charged.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    There may be no hope then
    Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Avantgarde Duo XD, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.

    Luxman 590AX Mark II, Job INTegrated.

    Conrad Johnson GAT2, Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE Stage 2, Misho Myronov Wooden pre.

    Misho Myronov Wooden amp, First Watt SIT-3 (x 2 - one as backup), First Watt F7, Job 250 Monos, Valvet E2se, NuForce STA200, AkitikA GT-102 amp, ASL Wave monos, Dennis Had 45 monos. Absolute Audio Labs PCF 25 amp (improved First Watt F7 super clone)

    RME Audio ADI-2 DAC FS, Lumin U1 mini, ModWright Ultimate Sony XA-5400ES, Audio Mirror Tubadour III NOS R2R Tube Dac w/ SE upgrades.

    Burmester 948, McIntosh MCLK12, Kimber Kable, Siltech, Cardas, Avanti Audio cables.

  30. #30

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    Hello Larry. Always good to hear from a fellow Avantgarde owner.

    Out of interest, have you tried your AGs powered by the Class D amps? I had a loan Diavelet a while back and thought it pretty good, though I kept my 845 mono SETs in the end. However a bit later I decided to look for a SS amp to replace the tubes. Lots of amps tried and tested, but I settled on NAD Master Series M32 and am pretty happy with it, although likely to move to M33 when stocks available - or something else. Peter
    Peter, thanks. I haven't tried the Audio Alchemy amp with my Duos. I would have to get some longer speaker wire, since my Cary SETs are monoblocks sitting right next to each Duo. I actually bought my Duos after I bought my Carys (both used) after falling in love with the SET sound a few years earlier - in a chance encounter when I happened upon Riccardo and Eunice Kron demonstrating their new SET amp in Hong Kong (where I was visiting). After getting the Carys I then needed to find a super efficient speaker that would work with 3.5watts.

    Larry
    Analog-VPIClassic3-3DArm,SoundsmithZephyrII+MiyajimaZeroMono,2xAmpex ATR-102,Doshi3.0 Herron VTPH-2A&BottleheadPhonoPre,
    Dig Rip-Pyramix,IzotopeRX3Adv,MykerinosCard,PacMicroModel2
    Dig Play-Lampi Pacific, mch NADAC Roon/HQPlayer,Oppo105
    Electronics-Herron 360Pre,CJ MET1mchPre,Cary2A3monoamps
    Speakers-AvantgardeDuosLR,3SolosC,LR,RR
    Other-Symmetrical Power&ArtKelmGroundOneIsoTrans,AudioDiskVinylClean er,AirTightRecordFlattener, Scott Rust cables
    Music-15KRecs(90%classical),1KR2Rtapes,1.5KCD's,500SACDs ,50TBripped files

  31. #31

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Quote Originally Posted by astrotoy View Post
    Peter, thanks. I haven't tried the Audio Alchemy amp with my Duos. I would have to get some longer speaker wire, since my Cary SETs are monoblocks sitting right next to each Duo. I actually bought my Duos after I bought my Carys (both used) after falling in love with the SET sound a few years earlier - in a chance encounter when I happened upon Riccardo and Eunice Kron demonstrating their new SET amp in Hong Kong (where I was visiting). After getting the Carys I then needed to find a super efficient speaker that would work with 3.5watts.

    Larry
    It's always really interesting to learn what amps are used with Avantgarde speakers. Many use SETs, a few use PP but many now (or always have) use solid state in one form or another.

    When I bought my first pair (Unos) in about 2002, l followed conventional wisdom and used SETs from Art Audio (PX-25 or Carissa) and Consonance (Cyber 845 monos), plus others best forgotten. After a couple of years experimenting with various solid state amps, I'm now using the NAD M32 on my 2006 re-styled Duos.

    Listening to what others recommend, I now have a few oddball amps on my Must Try list.

    AGD Audion - interesting Gallium Nitride Class D monos that look more like tiny SETs
    Bakoon 13r - very small integrated. I hope to try out next week
    Valvet 2Ese - ss single ended
    SPL Performer s800 - interesting high voltage VOLTAiR technology
    NAD M33 - latest Purifi Class D integrated with DAC, streamer and Dirac room correction all in one

    Just placed an order for new Duo XDs - can't wait! Peter
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M32, NAD M12, Accuphase A36, Consonance Cyber 845, Gamut D200 Mk III
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo (aesthetically modified), Martin Logan Expression 13A

  32. #32
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    17,318

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Congratulations on the new speakers! That’s awesome.
    Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Avantgarde Duo XD, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.

    Luxman 590AX Mark II, Job INTegrated.

    Conrad Johnson GAT2, Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE Stage 2, Misho Myronov Wooden pre.

    Misho Myronov Wooden amp, First Watt SIT-3 (x 2 - one as backup), First Watt F7, Job 250 Monos, Valvet E2se, NuForce STA200, AkitikA GT-102 amp, ASL Wave monos, Dennis Had 45 monos. Absolute Audio Labs PCF 25 amp (improved First Watt F7 super clone)

    RME Audio ADI-2 DAC FS, Lumin U1 mini, ModWright Ultimate Sony XA-5400ES, Audio Mirror Tubadour III NOS R2R Tube Dac w/ SE upgrades.

    Burmester 948, McIntosh MCLK12, Kimber Kable, Siltech, Cardas, Avanti Audio cables.

  33. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    birmingham uk
    Posts
    533

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    It's always really interesting to learn what amps are used with Avantgarde speakers. Many use SETs, a few use PP but many now (or always have) use solid state in one form or another.

    When I bought my first pair (Unos) in about 2002, l followed conventional wisdom and used SETs from Art Audio (PX-25 or Carissa) and Consonance (Cyber 845 monos), plus others best forgotten. After a couple of years experimenting with various solid state amps, I'm now using the NAD M32 on my 2006 re-styled Duos.

    Listening to what others recommend, I now have a few oddball amps on my Must Try list.

    AGD Audion - interesting Gallium Nitride Class D monos that look more like tiny SETs
    Bakoon 13r - very small integrated. I hope to try out next week
    Valvet 2Ese - ss single ended
    SPL Performer s800 - interesting high voltage VOLTAiR technology
    NAD M33 - latest Purifi Class D integrated with DAC, streamer and Dirac room correction all in one

    Just placed an order for new Duo XDs - can't wait! Peter
    The chap i bought my speakers off bought some Avantgarde horns , they must have been exceptional to beat the ones he sold me !!! [impulse taus modded by rfc ]
    1]bel canto pre 3 vbs ice power amps . rotel cd , modright modded jolida dac 2] tannoy eaton legacy 2]bel canto pre 3vbs BC ref 500s black ice modded dac , marantz sa8005, reference fidelity impulse Ta`us horns

  34. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    700

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Good enough for things like Sonos. Don't think I'd be to keen on using them in my room.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Preamp: EMM Labs PRE
    HT Processor: Bryston SP3
    Amps: Bryston 28b3s, Bryston 4b3, Bryston 9bsst2
    Digital: EMM NS1, EMM DA2
    Speakers: Kef Reference 5, Kef Reference 4c, Kef Ci200RR-THX (surround/back)
    Subs: Two JL Audio F212v2
    Power: PS Audio PS10, Bryston BIT15
    Wires: Wireworld Silver Eclipse XLR & SC, Ethernet - WW Platinum USB
    Other: Stillpoint Ultra SS, ISO-Acoustics ISO Pucks
    Video: Oppo 203, LG 65inch OLED
    -Kyle

  35. #35

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phishphan View Post
    Good enough for things like Sonos. Don't think I'd be to keen on using them in my room.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Not sure who you're replying to but I hope you're not referring to my Avantgarde Duo XD speakers, soon to arrive !!
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M32, NAD M12, Accuphase A36, Consonance Cyber 845, Gamut D200 Mk III
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo (aesthetically modified), Martin Logan Expression 13A

  36. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    354

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Much of the July 2020 issue of AudioXpress magazine is devoted to Class 'D' amplification. Their viewpoint is that linear amplifier designs are a thing of the past.

    Sound Power! audioXpress Audio Amplifiers Focus in July 2020 | audioXpress

  37. #37
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Palm Coast, FL 'The Hammock'
    Posts
    3,967

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    IF it sounds good, I really don't care what class it is. Its all about the music and how the amp sounds in your system.
    Chris

    (2 Chl): Pass xa30.5, W4S STP-SE Lumin D1, VPI Classic 1, Manley Chinook, Dynavector DV20x2L.exaSound e32 mk11, Marantz SA11S2. ( computer) Win7, Synology DS413 NAS ,Vincent SP-331MKII , Quicksilver LS,Vapor Audio Breeze, Rythmik F12se. Cables: Acoustic Zen, DL Labs, Blue Jean.. ,Bryston BCD-1,Timbernation Rack,

  38. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    chicago burbs
    Posts
    267

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    I can't help but think it's just another avenue to charge hundreds of % markup for voodoo science. I don't believe all amps sound the same but if it cost 5 figures to make class d sound good, then maybe it should remain in the entry level category.
    Meridian dsp8000 se upgrade, meridian 218 zone controller, VA Beethovens, , Hegel h360, rega jupiter, roon nucleus, revox tuner.

  39. #39
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    S„o Paulo - Brazil
    Posts
    53

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    I feel that the more people get to know and accept class D amps the better. It will not suite everyone's tastes and that is fine. But their value is hard to beat. Now the growing popularity means we have more manufacturers from many different countries, different features, designs, price points, etc.

    Through the years I bought a total of 7 amplifiers, just recently bought my 4th class D amplifier, and it is the 2nd based on Hypex NCore.
    1. Sonore ultraRendu - Uptone ISO Regen - Mola Mola Makua - Apollon NC800 SL PRO - Thiel CS3.7
    2. RME ADI-2 DAC FS - Audeze LCD-XC - Apollon NC502MP - Monitor Audio PL100
    3. Hidizs S8 - Audeze LCDi3

  40. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    354

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    from AudioXpress magazine:

    Time to Embrace Evolution

    Audio amplifiers—from the latest OEM amp modules and topologies to the most advanced and efficient devices and integrated circuits—target different applications, while developers focus on different requirements.

    Meanwhile, there’s a quiet revolution happening in audio amplification. Essentially, it is the direct result of strong innovation in Class-D technology, with incremental improvements introduced on multiple fronts, together with the demanding requirements of new high-volume applications in mobile and personal audio, wireless speakers, and automotive audio. The reality is, in the consumer space at least, there was never so much activity in the segment.

    And multiple target applications is the reason why so many advanced products launched over the last decade, while showing technical merit and measurable benefits, very seldom have we found widespread recognition by the audio industry outside of their intended target market.

    Many times we have seen new products that benefited from advanced performance in specific criteria (e.g., energy efficiency, dynamics, or distortion) being criticized as disappointing over subjective criteria, such as perceived sound quality. And that is the reason why we can find products—in totally extreme segments—where inventors and/or manufacturers have not fully explored the product’s unique propositions and advantages.

    That is also the reason why so many great Class-D amplifiers have reached the market and were poorly received by demanding users in the high-end audio segment, where the criteria for evaluation is frequently subjective and hard to confront.

    As Stuart Yaniger writes in this edition, for far too long, Class-D amplifiers were quickly disregarded with statements such as: “It’s improving, but they’re not there yet.” In audioXpress, we like to evaluate things objectively and that is why we review some of the latest products that serve to show how things are not only improving but reaching a level of perfection that is even difficult to measure with standard lab-quality audio analyzers.

    As Yaniger also writes this month: “...it is no secret that I believe an amplifier’s job is to make a small signal larger—things like “conveying the emotion of music” are, in my view, best left to the musicians and producers. So the best amplifier is one that has no sound of its own.”

    I understand that some of our readers will disagree with this view, and that is precisely
    why the audio industry still has room for manufacturers who sell $50,000 USD analog monster- monoblocks that remained basically the same designs for at least 30 years—and whose clients continue to praise them as the best thing there is, because they “deliver exceptional musicality,” while other companies are now focusing on the latest “smart” audio systems, which of course include an advanced stereo amp with integrated DSP, the highest power efficiency and all the connectivity needed to enable applications for today’s market and lifestyles—while costing less than $40 because they target product applications manufactured in the millions, not hundreds.

    And that is why we also embarked on a visit to Roskilde in Denmark, to show a bit more about audio development house Purifi Audio, which is a great example of a new company working on the cutting edge to break the barriers of audio fidelity and elevate the threshold of what high-end audio can be—objectively.

    As our readers can also attest this month, even a DIY project from an expert such as Dimitri Danyuk—who has been the principal hardware engineer at Harman Luxury Audio since 2013—serves to show how amplifier performance can be significantly improved when there’s an understanding of what was previously done, and what we are trying to achieve.

    In this month’s market update, we also discuss a wide gamut of breakthrough solutions in audio amplification, from new-generation devices designed to boost the audio quality and efficiency of phones, wireless speakers, and wearables, to truly smart amplifiers that are meant to solve the challenges of speaker management.

    And to add a valuable perspective, Richard Honeycutt travels into the past to reflect on the early inventions that formed the foundation of the live sound equipment we have today—and serves to show how much audio amplification has evolved.

    J. Martins
    Editor-in-Chief
    July 2020

  41. #41
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    628

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Small Green Computer; gigaFoil 4 Ethernet filter w/ Keces PS-3; Sonore ultraRendu; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; AQ Diamond USB; Duelund USB; Curious USB; Lush USB; Supra USB; PS Audio LanRover; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; Audioquest Diamond ethernet; Audioquest Diamond AES - 3M; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex - updated; Topping D-90; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamplifier, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Wyred 4 Sound STP-750E Mk II amplifier w/Kimber TCX wiring & WBT binding posts; Quicksilver Mid Mono amplifiers w/Gold Lion KT77s, Joseph Audio Perspective 2 Graphenes; Symposium Super Plus Speaker Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata 6000S/ V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.

    www.getbettersound.com

  42. #42
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    45

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    NAD, Techniques, and Marantz all make me want to try class D... but not as my main amplifier system yet.

  43. #43

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Quote Originally Posted by neodinardo View Post
    NAD, Techniques, and Marantz all make me want to try class D... but not as my main amplifier system yet.
    With respect that's a rather biased statement.

    You think these brands may make great products but you're not prepared to see equipment labelled with these mass-produced names in your main system. That's a shame and rather typical of many of us audiophiles.

    We like to think we know best and sniff out obscure brands to add a bit of exotica and bling to our systems and we like to convince ourselves that they actually sound better. Truth often is that only these major big brands have the R&D resources to make significant improvements and can offer them in affordable packages because of their big sales numbers.

    They have massive buying power and can sometimes obtain a monopoly on the latest technology. This can be included in their prestige ranges and can, if buyers keep an open mind, offer better sound quality than the best of the "boutique" brands we so much like to display on our equipment racks!

    Granted many big name brands donít bother and choose to cater solely to the big mid-fi markets, but others really do try to offer state of the art alternatives for those prepared to give them an unbiased listen.

    OK, that's bound to rustle a few feathers, but I'm happy doing so and continue using products from these household-name brands in my own excellent sounding system - NAD in my own case, but I'm sure Marantz, Sony, Denon and other all too often frowned upon brands offer truly excellent sounding kit in their top-drawer ranges. Peter
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M32, NAD M12, Accuphase A36, Consonance Cyber 845, Gamut D200 Mk III
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo (aesthetically modified), Martin Logan Expression 13A

  44. #44
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    45

    Re: How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

    Definitely take my work-in-progress on paper opinion of class D with a pinch of salt. I have not had the chance to hear anything like the NAD M33. Or any high end digital amp as of yet. Perhaps a demo or two will greatly change my mind. In the interim, class D technology seems a lot like buying a high end thumb paddle shifting electric sports car. It might be technically superior, it might actually be better.

    With that being said, I definitely know Iím gonna like that traditional engine growling Porsche with a six speed manual. Just like that old fashioned Porsche, heavy class A to AB amps just excite me more right now. They have a longer, proven legacy of making people happy. And if I want to buy a Porsche first and then buy that electric sports car second, I see that as exploring different things one at a time. I will meet you on the other side with your digital amp and we will be class D digital best friends forever. I will even try to tube amps one day - cross my heart. Just let me buy my fracking Porsche first.

    Here Here, the brands I listed are brands I like. The products they make are products that interest me. Iím just slightly disappointed that those brandís flagship products are all class D now. Which is also tempting me to try those products out. Right after I visit the Pass Labs dealer.

    I might start with a Chord Hugo TT 2 as the DAC / Headphone Amplifier / Preamplifier in my stereo. That not what I would call a traditional product. I may or may not use it as the preamp but I definitely want it as a DAC. And I do have a hawk eye on the NAD M33 for upcoming reviews.

AudioShark - The Best High End Audio Discussion forum.

AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.

The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.

At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.

We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!

Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com

Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.

Sincerely,
The Audioshark.org Team

How do you feel about the proliferation of Class D in high end products?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •