Are Hi-Fi prices crazy or reasonable?

**MichaelsMinute** · January 11, 2023, 04:05 PM

I share some thoughts on Hi-Hi pricing as it seems almost no one knows what C.O.G.S. is.

Pricing of Hi-Fi Gear - Fair or Crazy? - YouTube

**Puma Cat** · January 11, 2023, 05:57 PM

Well, my hope is the manufacturer knows what the COGS are.

Also, its reasonable to have to pay something for the R&D, Process Development (the phase of "translating" R&D into a manufacturable product), and the cost of placing the product into Ops (aka Manufacturing). Those things don't come free, either.

Then, there's the cost of QC and QA (which is not the same as QC).

Also, if the manufacturer is disciplined, they'll also be manufacturing under Statistical Control, and tracking Cp/Cpk.

**MichaelsMinute** · January 11, 2023, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

Well, my hope is the manufacturer knows what the COGS are.

Also, its reasonable to have to pay something for the R&D, Process Development (the phase of "translating" R&D into a manufacturable product), and the cost of placing the product into Ops (aka Manufacturing). Those things don't come free, either.

Then, there's the cost of QC and QA (which is not the same as QC).

Also, if the manufacturer is disciplined, they'll also be manufacturing under Statistical Control, and tracking Cp/Cpk.

Absolutely true.

But I had to realize the audience and keep it high level.

Many of them think everything should only cost what it costs to physically make that part and nothing else. Or they think because an Accuphase costs $2,500 in Japan it should cost $2800 here at the dealer level. They have simply have no idea. I didn't even get into importer vs distributor vs end dealer and all the markups/costs in each of that leg pop the journey.

**ADCO** · January 12, 2023, 03:32 PM

This topic can be another tough slog. I run a couple of construction companies, one that involves itself in the upper echelon of renovations . Most of what you talk about likely has a (reasonably) universal application.
It’s literally impossible for me to articulate to some potential customers what or why their project cost what it costs.
And, as such those very same customers move away from my 36 years experience and end up giving these very involved projects to the lowest bidder.
The end result is either a grossly inferior product or a company that didn’t make enough money ( profit) to be around should the inevitable call backs come around. And there will be deficiencies , you can bank on that.

I think that talking about this requires a hefty measure of common sense. To wit, we are all able to do our homework quite easily now and with some patience and pragmatism we can vet out products/services that have a positive value quotient.
Like all industries, there is products and services that really aren’t worth the money being asked . A great example was the initial offerings of some of the “elite” level AVR’s or Pre-Processors for home theatre that were marginally modified re-branded mass market units. These things eventually vet themselves out and in general the market corrects .

Like the audio industry our industry suffers from quantities of scale. As mentioned in Micheal’s vid. Without this , costs go up exponentially . Nothing particularly new or ground breaking here.

As a side bar, when I look at the quality of sound you can achieve for very modest money these days vs when I started in the 80’s it’s really the best of times. It’s only when you want to advance to the high levels of the hobby that prices jet. There is the quantities to scale (also nicely framed in the vid) .

Is audio overpriced? Well that’s the same as asking if quality renovations are overpriced, or a custom made dinning room table or , or….

Seek out a good value quotient and you will be fine . You will need to understand what your trying to achieve though, but that’s on you to not let that chase make you vulnerable

My more than 2 cents

**Puma Cat** · January 12, 2023, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by ADCO

This topic can be another tough slog. I run a couple of construction companies, one that involves itself in the upper echelon of renovations . Most of what you talk about likely has a (reasonably) universal application.
It’s literally impossible for me to articulate to some potential customers what or why their project cost what it costs.
And, as such those very same customers move away from my 36 years experience and end up giving these very involved projects to the lowest bidder.
The end result is either a grossly inferior product or a company that didn’t make enough money ( profit) to be around should the inevitable call backs come around. And there will be deficiencies , you can bank on that.

I think that talking about this requires a hefty measure of common sense. To wit, we are all able to do our homework quite easily now and with some patience and pragmatism we can vet out products/services that have a positive value quotient.
Like all industries, there is products and services that really aren’t worth the money being asked . A great example was the initial offerings of some of the “elite” level AVR’s or Pre-Processors for home theatre that were marginally modified re-branded mass market units. These things eventually vet themselves out and in general the market corrects .

Like the audio industry our industry suffers from quantities of scale. As mentioned in Micheal’s vid. Without this , costs go up exponentially . Nothing particularly new or ground breaking here.

As a side bar, when I look at the quality of sound you can achieve for very modest money these days vs when I started in the 80’s it’s really the best of times. It’s only when you want to advance to the high levels of the hobby that prices jet. There is the quantities to scale (also nicely framed in the vid) .

Is audio overpriced? Well that’s the same as asking if quality renovations are overpriced, or a custom made dinning room table or , or….

Seek out a good value quotient and you will be fine . You will need to understand what your trying to achieve though, but that’s on you to not let that chase make you vulnerable

My more than 2 cents

Excellent and informative post. Could not agree more.

**tino27** · January 12, 2023, 04:31 PM

Had a long time food acquaintance (he was a food truck operator) approach me one time and asked if I still did professional food photography. He had a number of newly bottled sauces he was trying to promote and sell on Amazon and he needed "white background" images as part of the description for his Amazon page.

"Absolutely!" and I showed him several sample images I had just finished for a different client demonstrating the exact aesthetic he was looking for.

"That is EXACTLY what I'm looking for. How much?"

I had charged my previous client roughly $400 for images for their two product bottles. Since this new guy had three bottles, I figured it would be fair to charge about 25% more and quoted him a price of $500. I could immediately see his face drop. Like most people who have no understanding of what it takes to make "professional" images, he just assumed I would point my fancy-ass camera toward the bottles, snap a couple of pictures, and my camera would somehow just magically make amazing images. Forget about the multiple lights (this is an indoor shoot after all), stands, tripods, light modifiers, cameras, lenses, laptops, Photoshop, etc. that are all required to produce the final WOW image. Plus my time and expertise.

"I'll have to get back to you." I wanted to help him, but I knew he wasn't the right customer for me. Later on I checked his Amazon webpage only to discover he had uploaded images he snapped with his iPhone that definitely looked like they were snapped by somebody who didn't have the first clue as to how lighting or cameras worked.

Some customers understand the cost of purchasing quality goods and services. Focus on those folks. I feel the same way about audio. Not that I am going to agree to just naively pay through the nose for something just because it is high-end, but if the value is there, it's worth it.

**MichaelsMinute** · January 12, 2023, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by tino27

Had a long time food acquaintance (he was a food truck operator) approach me one time and asked if I still did professional food photography. He had a number of newly bottled sauces he was trying to promote and sell on Amazon and he needed "white background" images as part of the description for his Amazon page.

"Absolutely!" and I showed him several sample images I had just finished for a different client demonstrating the exact aesthetic he was looking for.

"That is EXACTLY what I'm looking for. How much?"

I had charged my previous client roughly $400 for images for their two product bottles. Since this new guy had three bottles, I figured it would be fair to charge about 25% more and quoted him a price of $500. I could immediately see his face drop. Like most people who have no understanding of what it takes to make "professional" images, he just assumed I would point my fancy-ass camera toward the bottles, snap a couple of pictures, and my camera would somehow just magically make amazing images. Forget about the multiple lights (this is an indoor shoot after all), stands, tripods, light modifiers, cameras, lenses, laptops, Photoshop, etc. that are all required to produce the final WOW image. Plus my time and expertise.

"I'll have to get back to you." I wanted to help him, but I knew he wasn't the right customer for me. Later on I checked his Amazon webpage only to discover he had uploaded images he snapped with his iPhone that definitely looked like they were snapped by somebody who didn't have the first clue as to how lighting or cameras worked.

Some customers understand the cost of purchasing quality goods and services. Focus on those folks. I feel the same way about audio. Not that I am going to agree to just naively pay through the nose for something just because it is high-end, but if the value is there, it's worth it.

Yup. Perfect example.

And they fail to understand how much money you have tied up in camera gear, lighting, software, etc. to be able to produce your work. Let alone paying for your time and expertise.

**Mr Peabody** · January 12, 2023, 05:56 PM

It is buyer beware for consumers to be sure. the other side of the story is pure greed. The type that when I walked my daughter into a car dealer and the sticker said "X" and they said the price was $4k over that, needless to say I walked out after telling him that's no way to do business. The type of greed that bought the government off and allowed the warnings of the use of lead that is to this day affecting people. The type of greed and screwing over that has the U.S. paying more for drugs than any other country. Sort of like those audio brands mentioned that cost more in the U.S. than anywhere else.

Continue the Bro-fest and waving the banner of integrity but most hi-fi is only for the 1%. And that's probably the same percentage of business that has any integrity.

**MichaelsMinute** · January 12, 2023, 06:18 PM

I like these two books on the topic:

Bastiat's "The Law"

Bastiat: "Essays on a Political Economy"

**astrotoy** · January 12, 2023, 10:30 PM

If I were getting brain surgery or a complex corporate merger, I would definitely go to the lowest bidder!

Larry

**MichaelsMinute** · January 13, 2023, 09:48 AM

I do find stupid people entertaining.

I just had someone comment on the video without even watching it. They made a comment assuming they knew what it was about and ended up looking foolish.

Stupid comments get pinned to the top of the videos on my page for all too see. LOL

**Puma Cat** · January 13, 2023, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

I like these two books on the topic:

Bastiat's "The Law"

Bastiat: "Essays on a Political Economy"

I like this book, "Out of the Crisis" by W. Edwards Deming

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