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  1. #1

    Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    World famous stereo system guru Jim Smith and I shot a film where he reveals his magic formula for optimizing speaker placement. Try it and let me know what you think…

    The Magic Formula for Perfect Speaker Set-Up?! | W/ Jim Smith - YouTube
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  2. #2
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    I've bounced between setup methods over the years; formulas, etc... and have settled on Jim Smith's as my best approach. I used his book (initially), then DVDs, and gained additional value from a Straight Talk session with Jim. Particularly, he was knowledgeable of my speakers and had good info on starting points based on several factors.
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    What amazes me is that discussions about system setup get very little love on audio forums. Working with the room is the most important aspect of getting great sound but all people want to talk about is equipment. This very short thread is case in point.
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    The room dictates the sound character, the speaker's positioning the imaging/soundstage, the gear the paint, the music the taste of the listener. We love simplicity, we love to play.

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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    The key point I have taken from Jim’s experience is to find your listening position first. It makes so much sense and is obvious after you do it. Of course it’s not always easy for those that do not have dedicated rooms.

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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthStar View Post
    The room dictates the sound character, the speaker's positioning the imaging/soundstage, the gear the paint, the music the taste of the listener. We love simplicity, we love to play.

    So many think that chucking "room correction DSP" at the problem, solves the matter. It doesn't and worse, this heavy-duty signal processing does no favours to the top end, even though the top end is not normally adjusted. DSP, if built into a full-range amp takes away some of the excitement factor from the music, in my experience. Better by far to call Jim Smith for expert setting up.
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  7. #7

    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    So many think that chucking "room correction DSP" at the problem, solves the matter. It doesn't and worse, this heavy-duty signal processing does no favours to the top end, even though the top end is not normally adjusted. DSP, if built into a full-range amp takes away some of the excitement factor from the music, in my experience. Better by far to call Jim Smith for expert setting up.
    Excellent point.
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    The challenge I’m grappling with is that I can’t move the listening position further back more than a few inches, and I can’t get the speakers closer together than around 8.5 feet (furniture in between). Can’t figure out how to get close to that magic #.
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    So many think that chucking "room correction DSP" at the problem, solves the matter. It doesn't and worse, this heavy-duty signal processing does no favours to the top end, even though the top end is not normally adjusted. DSP, if built into a full-range amp takes away some of the excitement factor from the music, in my experience. Better by far to call Jim Smith for expert setting up.
    I agree with stereo analog sources in a stereo sound setup room. Hi-fi stereo @ its very best; the room acoustics with treatments and judicious intelligent speaker's placement.

    * For home theater with multichannels for cohesion of all sound's direction and homogeneity some Trinnov Altitude 32 or Dirac Live is permissible and beneficial. It's not easy to calibrate four subwoofers or more with eleven or more channels (speakers). So some digital crunching DSP comes a long way since Top Gun 1986.
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    My experience with DSP has been revelatory.

    My use of DSP (convolution filters in ROON) has improved every aspect of playback In my room. Dynamics, imaging, Timing and of course, solid and clear low frequencies.

    I have no doubt an expert like Jim could improve on what I have achieved without DSP but very confident new filters added to his placement would improve it further.

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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthStar View Post
    I agree with stereo analog sources in a stereo sound setup room. Hi-fi stereo @ its very best; the room acoustics with treatments and judicious intelligent speaker's placement.

    * For home theater with multichannels for cohesion of all sound's direction and homogeneity some Trinnov Altitude 32 or Dirac Live is permissible and beneficial. It's not easy to calibrate four subwoofers or more with eleven or more channels (speakers). So some digital crunching DSP comes a long way since Top Gun 1986.
    That's how I regard room correction DSP. It really shouldn't be necessary with 2 channel systems. To people who have bought speakers with inadaquate bass and think adding subs is the solution and then can't get this complex system set up properly without resorting to DSP, I say no - get youself the speakers you should have bought in the first place - ones that DO provide decent bass.

    For AV guys who inevitably have complex speakers systems there's arguably less need for ultimate sound, as their brains are more involved in processsing the video element and so DSP is more acceptable. Music lovers' brains are soley procesing sound and therefore more fussy regarding audio. That's my theory anyway! Peter
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  12. #12

    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    The problem with the EQ/DSP in general is very simple - tt can fix something, but not without a cost. It "kills" the transparency, dynamics, resolution... Even the best DSPs lose that last nuance in hi-end sound.

    If you don't hear it - great. And I really mean it - without any sarcasm.

    So far, I haven't heard any DSP processing which is applied on one part of the frequency range that doesn't affect the signal on completely different frequency range. Even when correction is limited only to frequencies bellow the Schroeder frequency - it affects everything. And I had or tried almost all - Dirac, ARC, Room Perfect, Acourate, Trinnov, Audyssey. YPAO, MCACC, AccuEQ and of course, manual PEQs (including aforementioned Roon). I've also listened to a lot of active speakers with and without DSP. Once I used to think that active speakers with DSP are the end game for every audiophile.

    The higher the quality of the system - the easier to hear the artifacts.

    One of my main reasons to buy Devialet Expert was the complete set of options for "perfect" subwoofer(s) integration and optimization in stereo system. In the end - I gave up using high-pass filter. Despite the fact that it's one of the most transparent I've ever heard - it's just not 100% transparent.

    At the moment, I find DSP good enough only for subwoofers.

    BTW, if someone has knowledge and resources to make the ultimate digital crossover and DSP in fully digital active speaker - that would be Alon Wolf and Magico.

    And yet, Magico ultimate speaker - M9 which costs $750k - is passive.

    M9 has active crossover which is fully analog (no DSP!) only for the lowest bass - fixed at 120 Hz - all other crossovers are passive.
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    What is written below is true of some and possibly many different DSP techniques and devices however it is not true of all. Anyone who has
    ever visited my system can attest to that fact. I use a very advanced form of DSP based upon Boehmer's intellectual capital as wrapped up
    and implemented in the Legacy Audio Wavelet. Dynamics you say? Stop over here,....you will have them.

    There is NO loss of dynamics and other attributes as cited as having occurred with other simple and more complex DSP tools. Anyone who doubts
    that need only get in touch, and I will gladly show you in person dynamics from the faintest whisper levels to full-on dynamics. Perhaps Craig, Jeff,
    Buck, Jim or others who have been here in the last year will care to comment.

    DSP or full-on "Room Correction" like that implemented in the Legacy/Bohmer platform or the EIKON Audio/Bohmer OEM implementation (or anything else
    for that matter), should NEVER be used until you GET THE FUNDAMENTALS RIGHT including SPEAKER POSITIONING!!! The common misconception I've faced
    is that some have said that in my case I can just slap a pair of Legacy speakers down anywhere I want with little care for perfect placement, seating position
    choice, etc... and then just turn on Room Correction and it will fix all ills.

    This is blatantly wrong....while doing so would catch many things and make them better to a lesser or greater degree, there is NO REPLACEMENT for
    getting speaker and seating positioning right as with any fully passive speaker FIRST before pulling out any mics, shooting the room response and letting
    a room correction algorithm go to work. I spend countless hours on traditional speaker placement and tweaking and listen to my speakers passive, no
    Room Correction and attempt to get them 'perfect' before ever using the corrective algorithms.

    With regard to the point that Alon Wolf and Magico have the knowledge and resources to do DSP/Active speakers well,....the folks at Magico are clearly gifted
    and know how to build great {!} speakers. To state the premise that the fact they don't do that, even with the M9, as some sort of de facto proof that doing so
    is inferior (implied by the text) is honestly IMHO, not valid logic whatsoever.

    You can add the folks at Meridian to the short list of folks who have proven they can do fully active DSP speakers well and more so, Bill Dudleston of Legacy
    and Bernt Bohmer of Bohmer Audio to the list of those that have the knowledge and resources as well as having actually proven it in real offerings.
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    I've used DSP with some pretty spectacular results on studio monitors (Genelec's) in my recording studio.

    To Here Here's point though, I hesitate to insert it into my main hifi system for fear adding a digital system in the chain of my main system that I try to keep as simple as possible will adversely affect the little parts of the sound that to me make is musical and organic vs just having good frequency response.
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    I've used DSP with some pretty spectacular results on studio monitors (Generic's) in my recording studio.

    To Here Here's point though, I hesitate to insert it into my main hifi system for fear adding a digital system in the chain of my main system that I try to keep as simple as possible will adversely affect the little parts of the sound that to me make is musical and organic vs just having good frequency response.
    Another fine speaker system....purpose-built for the studio world and delivers great sound.

    I had the same fear for most of my audio career viz. injecting any additional digital step A->D and then downstream an additional D->A step after the algorithms were run; the little juicy wonderful bits of the sound that result in the most musical and organic results won't be washed out if you utilize the right platform of which the Legacy/Bohmer or EIKON/Bohmer are 2 fine examples.
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    > The problem with the EQ/DSP in general is very simple - tt can fix something, but not without a cost. It "kills" the transparency, dynamics, resolution... Even the best DSPs lose that last nuance in hi-end sound.

    > The higher the quality of the system - the easier to hear the artifacts.

    I agree with both points. However, if EQ/DSP is applied to the bass only (after active crossover), the problem you mention can be avoided as the top end can reach its amplifier unmolested by this DSP. Only the bass with its own amp will be subject to DSP and that's the area where poor room acoustics may call for this - but only after all other options are exhausted.

    Speakers such as Avantgarde’s XD Series achieve this by including DSP in their bass enclosures / amps, but sadly AG don't provide the software or mic to measure and adjust. They provide a "straight-line" software where the line can easily be tailored to compensate for response curves you have to measure yourself. Martin Logan's newer hybrid speakers offer a more user-friendly method by supplying a calibrated mic and Anthem software to take measurements and make adjustments, effectively in one go. In both cases, the mid and top frequencies reach their drivers / panel without any unnecessary signal processing.
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    A common misconception is that the only problems that should have DSP / Corrective algorithms applied is bass as it is somehow safer to do so
    and less detrimental to the overall sound. The usual extension of that thought is that room treatments (diffusion, absorbers, etc...) are then used
    with no reservations for that approach to focus also on the "non bass" bands all the way up.

    I am not saying room treatments are not good nor am I saying they are not necessary, only laying out an overall thought basis to precede the following:

    The problem with speaker response and system response in general is not just with bass as we know and more importantly,
    is not a 2-dimensional or even only a 3-dimensional problem.

    It is a 4-dimensional problem:

    - Frequency
    - Phase
    - Amplitude
    - TIME, i.e. the behavior of the waves that emerge from speaker drivers and as they propagate in space after the initial wave-launch, particularly in the first 5ms - 50ms or 60ms and they
    interact with room boundaries and start bouncing back and bouncing around the room

    The premise of the Bohmer technology itself is that if you determine the ideal target function for behavior of the speaker and each of its driver groups (by major frequency bands) and you
    measure the actual behavior of the speaker in the room from t=1ms forward that you can determine how the room (furniture, wall hangings, the room itself...) is affecting the playback
    of the speaker. Those samples are analyzed and used to compute new coefficients for wave-launch by each driver in the system to correct issues BEFORE they occur in the room.

    I am giving a poor synopsis at a very high level to a vastly sophisticated use of real-time signal analysis and computing power in order to keep this brief.

    This, at least to me is the most critical benefit of the Bohmer approach to this problem in that room treatments and other techniques do not compensate for the 4th dimension,
    behavior of the sound waves over time...room treatments are reacting to the problem and trying to treat it (in 2 dimensions, not even 3) versus trying to solve the problem at its source.

    I just think that something more is needed.

    My apologies that my responses to this topic have further taken this thread down a tangent.

    Going back to my points above, good speaker placement is the fundamental baseline we need regardless of DSP, no-DSP, etc...

    I am going to read up on Jim Smith's latest and see how my current room can benefit from it using passive-speaker listening and the techniques he covers.
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Not worth the effort Mark. I am not even sure how DSP entered this thread but it did.

    Jim’s process works.

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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Probably true Craig.... :-)

    One last comment to this statement:

    "It "kills" the transparency, dynamics, resolution... Even the best DSPs lose that last nuance in hi-end sound."

    A simple and respectful "No! Let me know when you want to stop by for some great music with all those attributes intact."
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  20. #20

    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Thanks for the invite, but unfortunatelly I live too far from you. Otherwise, I would be very pleased.

    Being involved in hi-fi for quite some time, I had a numerous occasions to listen to Linn Klimax 350A (old and new with Organik DACs - owned by my good friend), Legacy Audio Aeris (with Wavelet), B&O BeoLab 90, Kii Audio Three (with and without BXT), Dutch & Dutch 8c, new and old active Dynaudio Focus, quite a number of Genelec, Neumann, Dynaudio and similar studio speakers (I have a couple of friends who work in studio), quite a number of DIY active speaker projects with and without DSP... I've tried many different things in my own room, in my own system(s).

    So, I'm speaking from my own experience. YMMV, of course.

    And I repeat myself - I haven't heard DSP which doesn't introduce issues I've mentioned. I didn't say it doesn't exist. I will be VERY happy once I find it.

    Some are better, some are worse. Aforementioned DSP in Roon is not good. I wouldn't use it in all but the worst rooms / with the worst acoustics and no other way to fix the issues.

    For Dirac, Trinnov, ARC, Room Perfect... I can understand usage in HT/surround systems, but if possible I would avoid it - I would only equalize/optimize subwoofers.
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    > A common misconception is that the only problems that should have DSP / Corrective algorithms applied is bass as it is somehow safer to do so

    Some while ago when I first read about the wonders of room correction DSP (particularly those in fully active speakers offering electronic XO, DSP and multiple amps), it occurred to me a some speaker builders could cut a lot of costly corners and just install any selection of drivers as long as, between them, they were capable of producing all frequencies. It doesn't matter how ragged the response curve is as the full-range DSP could sort it all out.

    I'm not suggesting this already happens as there are currently few of this type of modern active speaker system, all built by reputable makers, but it could happen when we see Ebay offerings of fully active systems at relatively low prices and with claimed flat response curves. I would not like to see that, but I suspect we will soon.
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M33 all-in-one, NAD M12 preamp
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo XD, Avantgarde Duo (2006) - both aesthetically modified

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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    > A common misconception is that the only problems that should have DSP / Corrective algorithms applied is bass as it is somehow safer to do so

    Some while ago when I first read about the wonders of room correction DSP (particularly those in fully active speakers offering electronic XO, DSP and multiple amps), it occurred to me a some speaker builders could cut a lot of costly corners and just install any selection of drivers as long as, between them, they were capable of producing all frequencies. It doesn't matter how ragged the response curve is as the full-range DSP could sort it all out.

    I'm not suggesting this already happens as there are currently few of this type of modern active speaker system, all built by reputable makers, but it could happen when we see Ebay offerings of fully active systems at relatively low prices and with claimed flat response curves. I would not like to see that, but I suspect we will soon.
    I believe we already may hear such examples of your last point in computer-based speaker systems both onboard and external, possibly phones, definitely in car audio (except for bespoke high-end car audio), televisions, etc....
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  23. #23
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Quote Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
    Not worth the effort Mark. I am not even sure how DSP entered this thread but it did.

    Jim’s process works.
    I think it started with post number one. Some real hiend loudspeakers come with with room correction DSP integrated. Some hiend audiophiles even say that it's the future now today in the evolution of better sound better stereo better hi-fi.

    Then to keep on with our ear's measurements topic post number six proceeded to further the exploration of our dear cherish hobby. It is permissible to evolve as music lovers and audiophiles. There are no laws against it, zero. To be free in our love of audio is to explore and advance evolutionary.

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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    For the fun of it I checked the measurements in my system, was already not that far away from the 83% as mentioned (86%)
    Shifted my speakers a little closer together and now I am at exactly 83%.

    There is definitly a difference, bit more clarity in the mids, sharper transients. I will keep it like this for a while.
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    I re-measured mine today and am at 81.6%.

    Bob, I appreciate your comments. If the music moves you, your system is working for you.

  26. #26
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Just watched. This video was great. Jim has helped me so much with many things, including setup of the rooms in the store and my home system. The results he achieved were nothing less than stunning with oodles of ME (Musical Engagement).


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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    I just measured with a Bosch laser measure...mine is .836

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  28. #28
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Definitelty a great video!

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  29. #29
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    I’ve used Jim’s approach as well as the Wilson WASP technique. Both have rendered terrific results.

    When I setup my dedicated music room in our retirement home, the system did not sound as good as I expected. Mike and, a local friend, John came over. Our first step was to determine the best sitting position - we measured with a microphone and listened. This first step alone made a significant difference. Then we proceeded to reposition the speakers - listened, measured and repositioned. Bottom line, ended up with .82 ratio for my Wilson Alexias.

    When I replaced the Alexias with the MBLs, I positioned them in the same location as the Wilsons. Over time, I repositioned them with the assistance of Jeremy Bryan (MBL US Distributor), Mike and John. These were minor tweaks. Today, the speakers are at .81 and sounding sublime.
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  30. #30
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    I would love to be able to commission a set-up from Jim, but sadly he's thousands of miles away!

    I'm not so sure about the 83% rule. He suggestes this is his starting point and works from there. I've not worked out the angle Jim suggests in degrees as that would be easier to measure with a simple compass - often available as a phone app. I may do the calculation and post it here later for anyone prefering to use degrees than a %age of 2 measurements that are often difficult to measure single-handed!


    My own more limited experience suggests that perhaps 83% should be a maximim, but narrower angles should be just as good from an imaging and lifelike rendition point of view, though offering a less wide stage. Think about it - apart from orchestral music when sat towards the front of an auditorium, most live music is generated by musicians in an angle of much less than 83%. It would be great if Jim could comment on that observation.

    I measured my own set-up yestrday and found X is 287 cm and Y is 415, making a percentage of 69%. To achieve 83% I'd need to move my listening chair or the speakers forward about 60 cm. Or I could move the speakers about that much further apart. Unfortunately none of these is really an option, although I can sit at the front of my sofa rather than relax towards the back to achieve 83%! Doing so does alter the sound, though I'll have to try more varied music before deciding whether I prefer this angle or am happy with it at 69%. Peter
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  31. #31
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritmo View Post
    I’ve used Jim’s approach as well as the Wilson WASP technique. Both have rendered terrific results.

    When I setup my dedicated music room in our retirement home, the system did not sound as good as I expected. Mike and, a local friend, John came over. Our first step was to determine the best sitting position - we measured with a microphone and listened. This first step alone made a significant difference. Then we proceeded to reposition the speakers - listened, measured and repositioned. Bottom line, ended up with .82 ratio for my Wilson Alexias.

    When I replaced the Alexias with the MBLs, I positioned them in the same location as the Wilsons. Over time, I repositioned them with the assistance of Jeremy Bryan (MBL US Distributor), Mike and John. These were minor tweaks. Today, the speakers are at .81 and sounding sublime.
    Determining the correct listening position is the first step and often the most misunderstood. The use of the ratio Jim has found to be effective works only after listening position is determined based on smoothest bass. Many (most?) pick a listening position without much thought and then fight with their speakers and components to deliver performance that will always be compromised.
    Morgan

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  32. #32
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    I had recently struggling quite a bit with a lack of density and weight in my midrange. Something just sounded off regarding this. Thought it was mainly a back wall distance phenomenon and a node at my listening position, or from running DAC into amp without pre. Looked at this video, did some measurements, and my ratio was 1.1. Brought it down, and voila, midrange tonality and weight are dramatically better. I miss the grand scale of the wider placement during classical, but dynamics, timbre, and weight all sound much better. Sounds more natural.
    I will now be cancelling that audition I had scheduled for a Vinnie Rossi Brama Integrated.
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  33. #33
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    I suspect there's more $$ for sellers in the equipment & more bling for the users.
    Regardless, the room may be the most critical piece of equipment.
    Someday, I'll have mine set up & configured correctly.

  34. #34
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky64 View Post
    I had recently struggling quite a bit with a lack of density and weight in my midrange. Something just sounded off regarding this. Thought it was mainly a back wall distance phenomenon and a node at my listening position, or from running DAC into amp without pre. Looked at this video, did some measurements, and my ratio was 1.1. Brought it down, and voila, midrange tonality and weight are dramatically better. I miss the grand scale of the wider placement during classical, but dynamics, timbre, and weight all sound much better. Sounds more natural.
    I will now be cancelling that audition I had scheduled for a Vinnie Rossi Brama Integrated.
    Outstanding! Congratulations! Amazing what happens when everything snaps together. Enjoy the music!
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  35. #35

    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Quote Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
    My experience with DSP has been revelatory.

    My use of DSP (convolution filters in ROON) has improved every aspect of playback In my room. Dynamics, imaging, Timing and of course, solid and clear low frequencies.

    I have no doubt an expert like Jim could improve on what I have achieved without DSP but very confident new filters added to his placement would improve it further.
    100% Agree.

  36. #36

    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delija View Post
    The problem with the EQ/DSP in general is very simple - tt can fix something, but not without a cost. It "kills" the transparency, dynamics, resolution... Even the best DSPs lose that last nuance in hi-end sound.

    ....
    Nonsense

  37. #37

    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Scoggins View Post
    World famous stereo system guru Jim Smith and I shot a film where he reveals his magic formula for optimizing speaker placement. Try it and let me know what you think…

    The Magic Formula for Perfect Speaker Set-Up?! | W/ Jim Smith - YouTube
    TL;DR?

    Let's save folks some time: Distance from the listener position to each speaker = distance between the speakers divided by 0.83

    Example: If distance between speakers is 10 feet, then the distance from listener position to each speaker should be 12.05 feet (which is 10 feet divided by 0.83).

  38. #38
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    If the distance between the two tweeters is 83 inches and the distance from each tweeter to the respective listener's ear is 100 inches what happens, is that any good? ...83% good or 100%?

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  39. #39
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Subwoofers are not used just for "bass".
    If your room has deep, you won't be able to correct severe deep without using a subwoofer, in such case, it won't help if you have the right spec speaker.

  40. #40
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Nonsense
    I don't think so and for this reason - all signal processing is bad for signal purity and gets further away from the ideal of "straight wire with gain".

    Whether the processing is an old-fashioned simple tone control, or a graphic equaliser, let alone the hugely complex modern room correction DSP, the entire signal (if the DPS is within a full-range amp) is subjected to the processing - even though the upper frequencies may not be actually adjusted. They nevertheless suffer and this can be clearly heard of equipment is of very high calibre. Some of the music's excitement or goose-bump factor is missing when the DSP filter is engaged - no doubt about it. My Dirac Live is the version that can only adjust sub 500 Hz, but the entire signal HAS to pass the filter as there's no bye-pass.

    However, if one has a system where the signal is first split into Bass and Non-Bass and the Bass only goes to DSP and its own amp, while the Non-Bass goes directly to its own amp, then this will resolve the problem. Avantgarde and Martin Logan hybrids for example do just this - the incoming signal from the power amp goes straight to the horns or panel, but also to a bass-only amp with DSP and then on to the bass drivers.
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  41. #41
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    signal processing is bad for signal purity and gets further away from the ideal of "straight wire with gain".
    One would like to think that with all the time & advances in EE, that the theoretical rule is not as hard & fast as it may have formerly been.
    But, that said, DSP is an awful lot of signal juggling.
    These considerations come up in 'tone control' discussions pretty often.
    I guess it depends on the room, the equipment & the ears...... as it usually does.
    Just a mid Fi guy -

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  42. #42
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Nonsense
    It really depends what type and how much DSP is used, as with most things in almost any area of endeavor. A blanket statement either for or against DSP flies in the face of experimental and anecdotal data, as well as logic and common sense.
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  43. #43

    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Nonsense
    As I've already said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Delija View Post
    If you don't hear it - great. And I really mean it - without any sarcasm.
    I wish I couldn't hear it. Unfortunately (for me and many others), it's too obvious.
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  44. #44
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Would a hard-core hiend pure analog stereo hi-fi addict (TT & Tapes) dare to digitize his sound?
    It's like taking pictures with a digital camera.

    Enjoy Jim Smith and enjoy the music ...
    Understanding Digital Room Correction For Audiophiles Article By Mitch Barnett Of Accurate Sound.
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  45. #45
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthStar View Post
    Would a hard-core hiend pure analog stereo hi-fi addict (TT & Tapes) dare to digitize his sound?
    It's like taking pictures with a digital camera.

    Enjoy Jim Smith and enjoy the music ...
    Understanding Digital Room Correction For Audiophiles Article By Mitch Barnett Of Accurate Sound.
    That article is an excellent yet relatively simple to understand description of how room correction DSP works and how complex the process is. I've not yet read Part 2 but I'm hoping it will describe what happen to high frequencies (those that room acoustics don't spoil) by this complex signal processing software.

    It is my belief that, if the DSP is applied to full-range amps (as in most systems), then the higher frequencies suffer from the processor even though no effort is made to adjust the response of these higher frequencies. The result is a loss in lifelike reproduction and the excitement factor that we crave from music is diminished - at least if we use high quality speakers where we expect this excitement.

    In many cases, particularly systems with subs or multi-speaker AV systems, the advantages of DRP may outweigh the disadvantages, but for simple 2-channel systems using high quality speakers with no subs, the loss of top end finesse may reverse the advantages of smoothing out the bass.

    What do others think?
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  46. #46
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    I think yours is one man’s opinion just like mine is.

    I am a big believer in its benefits for my current room.

    You appear not to be. Cool.

  47. #47
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    What if in some audiophile rooms only the frequencies below 250Hz are corrected while above that range they are untouched and simply fine-tuned by room treatments and furniture repositioning, including the gear, the couch, the paintings on the walls and the speakers.

    Other rooms might require room correction where you can go higher than 250Hz. You adjust only the frequencies that are anomalies. The rest are left alone all by themselves in their purist form of high fidelity sound reproduction ... the music recordings from LPs, tapes, CDs, streams, AM/FM radio.
    ~ Bob ~
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  48. #48
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    below 250hz, room correction can reduce the peak but cant fill the null. it will only stress your amp and creating noise.

  49. #49
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthStar View Post
    What if in some audiophile rooms only the frequencies below 250Hz are corrected while above that range they are untouched
    If you consider what happens with those higher frequencies, your will answer your own question. If you have your room correction DSP built into your full-range amp, then how can the upper frequencies avoid it? Only if you split out the upper and lower frequencies first and then send the bass to one amp with DSP and the rest to another DSP-free amp can the upper frequencies be preserved unaffected.

    I agree there are instances where this processing may be of greater benefit than not, but I'd suggest that most 2-channel systems can be set up via other means - correct choice of speaker type for the room, then actual speaker model capable of delivering the bass you need, precise positioning, toe-in, perhaps tilt, furnishings, carpets, curtains, etc all should be exhaustively considered before resorting to DSP. It should be the last resort and not (as in many cases) the first attempt at getting best sound from a system. Jim has been silent on this thread and I don't blame him, but I would love to know how far up or down the list of things to do in ideal setting up that he would place DSP.
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  50. #50
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    Re: Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

    well, you dont treat your room and then add dsp on top.
    dsp is for a problematic room when you DONT treat it otherwise

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AudioShark - The Best High End Audio Discussion forum.

AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.

The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.

At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.

We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!

Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com

Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.

Sincerely,
The Audioshark.org Team

Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

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