Fremer's Generac problem--whole-house generators and SQ

pdub

pdub

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Fremer concluded a recent Analog Corner with a piece about how a newly installed Generac whole-house generator sucked the life out of his system. I did a "generator" search here and elsewhere and didn't find anyone making similar observations.

Recently during a three-hour outage I discovered that my "whole-home" Generac generator does not power two sub-panels. One of these has all of my dedicated circuits, the other has a few essentials (such as furnace, hot water, cooktop, basement circuits (which happens to power my LV alarm transformer)) that should have been put on the main panel going to the generator's transfer switch. The simplest solution seems to be to install a second transfer switch (the dedicated circuit sub-panel goes to the other sub-panel, which goes to the service), but that will, per Fremer's findings, potentially expose the dedicated circuits to a s***-load of noise.

There is room on the main panel to re-route the handful of essential circuits, but the electrician will have to cut through from the crawlspace to get back into the main panel.

Anyone with a generator feel like having circuits on a transfer switch impacts audio performance? Note that Fremer is claiming that the problem is not related to when the generator is running -- simply putting a transfer switch into his electrical system caused an audible and serious loss of SQ when running on street power.

Suggestions?
 
My whole house back-up generator does not seem to impact the SQ of my system at all . I had read his comments recently and was a bit surprised.
 
Was your generator installed before or after you set up your audio?

I think Fremer uses AQ power conditioners. I find it interesting that his SQ collapsed nonetheless.
 
We have a Generac Series 22 kW whole house system and its been installed since 2014 and it doesn't impact my audio, video. Fremers deal, I bet would be the installation of his unit. Something is not installed right.
 
But he consulted AQ's Garth Powell, who apparently indicated this is not an uncommon issue.
 
Certainly a First-World audiophile problem. Most people that have a need for a generator in their home will be happy if it keeps the lights on and the refrigerator working.
 
I wonder what pollution the generator injects into the wiring that a power conditioner or regenerator couldn't cure?

I'm not that familiar with the generator system. I looked into some type of system at one point, they told me I'd have to choose what appliances I wanted to power because it couldn't do everything in the house. I wonder if Fremer's is somehow starving his system for power.

It just seems one of those high end regenerators would fix the issue. The type that totally cleans and regenerates a constant voltage/frequency, maybe even one with the battery panels.
 
I thought the knock against generators was the DC to AC conversion which puts noise on the house power. Ditto for solar panels. I have no first hand experience with this, I have just read owner complaints.
 
nicoff said:
Certainly a First-World audiophile problem. Most people that have a need for a generator in their home will be happy if it keeps the lights on and the refrigerator working.
Click to expand...

I'm not concerned with running the stereo during outages. I want heat and hot water, which are currently on subpanel not connected to generator. The problem, per Fremer/Garth Powell, is that merely having a transfer switch (which is in-line even when pulling street power) in the loop can negatively impact SQ even if the generator is on standby. The heat and hot water circuits should have been on the main panel (which has generator backup) when the house was built. They were not. I'm trying to get a feel for whether I should avoid having the subpanel with the dedicated circuits connected by a new, second transfer switch to the generator.
 
Ironically, Fremer's current solution, after consulting with AQ, is to try out $15,000 worth of PSAudio regeneration ...

I wonder what he tried to review between having the generator/transfer switch installed and getting his PSAudio conditioners...
 
mep said:
I thought the knock against generators was the DC to AC conversion which puts noise on the house power. Ditto for solar panels. I have no first hand experience with this, I have just read owner complaints.
Click to expand...

Electrical items in a typical household run on AC. That incluyes lightbulbs, appliances, Heat pumps, audio equipment, etc. Therefore most home generators deliver AC and there is no need for DC to AC conversion.
 
pdub said:
Ironically, Fremer's current solution, after consulting with AQ, is to try out $15,000 worth of PSAudio regeneration ...

I wonder what he tried to review between having the generator/transfer switch installed and getting his PSAudio conditioners...
Click to expand...

His first mistake, talking to someone in the audio business. Talk to a electrician or to Generac themselves. Heck they installed mine along with an electrician.
 
pdub said:
Was your generator installed before or after you set up your audio?

I think Fremer uses AQ power conditioners. I find it interesting that his SQ collapsed nonetheless.
Click to expand...

I have had some level of decent audio in my home since we moved in over 20 years ago. The automatic back-up generator was installed in 2014.

On a couple of occasions I have even listened to music when normal power was out. Even under those circumstances I do not recall any adverse effects.
 
With a transfer switch there are additional wire connections and contacts in line.
This is one possibility that could contribute to some difference in SQ.
 
We have a Generac 27kw whole house generator. It is connected to the main panel. The audio room up here is connected to a sub panel off the main one. I have never heard an issue when listening whether before or after the generator was installed and certainly have not heard a reduction in SQ when the generator is running. We have been without power here a couple of days a few times and I have listened to the system for hours with total enjoyment. I have no idea what is going on with MF. Maybe there is an issue with the unit, its installation or maybe he needs to take the AQ stuff out of the system and try other things. I am sure he would have plenty of companies supply him with stuff.
 
I have 400 amp service. The main panel with most, but not all, essential circuits is on transfer switch with the Generac. There is room on this main panel to reroute the essential circuits. Panel A, a 200 amp subpanel, currently houses the remaining essential circuits plus a few I would consider non-essential. Panel B, another 200 amp subpanel, is routed from Panel A and has the dedicated circuits.

Since Panel A is the one that connects directly to the electric service, I think the purpose of the subpanel with the dedicated circuits was half-way defeated. As I understand it, this means noisy circuits on Panel A could be impacting the dedicated circuits on Panel B, since it is routed from Panel A.

I'm wondering if the fix could be to add a second transfer switch to power Panel A during an outage and to re-route Panel B, with the dedicated circuits, directly to the service. My main goals are: functioning essential circuits during an outage and cleanest delivery of electricity to Panel B at all other times. Music during an outage is not a priority.
Parker
 
Bet you anything there is a ground loop now between the primary and secondary service. There should be no reason for the electronics in the transfer switch sensing module to mess with audio. If your that worried and want a generator, get a manual throwover instead of automatic. No electronics. You just have to get out of bed to turn it on.
 
Kingrex said:
Bet you anything there is a ground loop now between the primary and secondary service. There should be no reason for the electronics in the transfer switch sensing module to mess with audio. If your that worried and want a generator, get a manual throwover instead of automatic. No electronics. You just have to get out of bed to turn it on.
Click to expand...

Can't tell if you're reacting to Fremer's actual issue or my potential issue.

My dedicated audio circuits (Panel B) are not currently on the generator. I don't particularly want them on the generator -- I want the cleanest power. But the way the electrician routed the wiring when the house was built, the service comes in to the Main Panel (200amp; transfer switch to generator) and to Panel A (200 amp; currently no transfer switch but housing circuits like heat and hot water that should be receiving power during outage). Panel B (200 amp), with the dedicated circuits, routs from Panel A.

Seems to be if I can rout Panel B directly to the service then the dedicated circuits will be receiving cleanest power (but no generated power, which is ok).
Then I would have a second transfer switch installed to take care of Panel A.

Possible?
 
That would be unusual for the "Panel B' to be fed from "Panel A" in this manor. If that was the case "Panel B" would be on the generator. Is there a 200 amp breaker/disconnect in "Panel A" to control "Panel B"?

Is the transfer switch a 400 amp switch?

Normally the 200 amp panels would be fed from the main disconnect/meter housing.
Are there 2/200 amp disconnects on the meter housing or is there one 400 amp?

Kingrex has seen many more panels than I but, this sounds quite unusual.
 
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