Thread: Ethernet switch test

OK guys,

Anyone ever compare off-the-shelf ethernet switches for sound differences in streaming?

I've bought or already own 6 different switches from TP link, Netgear and Cisco and will be doing a comparison shootout.

Has anyone else tried this themselves?

No real streaming for me but past discussions have happened

Do I really need an " Audio Grade Network Switch "?

I had a TP link at one time. My EE friend suggested I purchase a Netgear switch and he piggybacked glass resistors and capacitors along with addressing some grounding issues. He build a separate power supply / DC blocker for it also.

It was what I would describe as quieter and cleaner sound.

I have no idea how any of this works but he has built or rebuilt so many pieces of audio equipment I trust him to try something when he suggests it.

He is currently working on major upgrades to my ARC 610T amps.

Originally Posted by brad225

I had a TP link at one time. My EE friend suggested I purchase a Netgear switch and he piggybacked glass resistors and capacitors along with addressing some grounding issues. He build a separate power supply / DC blocker for it also.

It was what I would describe as quieter and cleaner sound.

I have no idea how any of this works but he has built or rebuilt so many pieces of audio equipment I trust him to try something when he suggests it.

He is currently working on major upgrades to my ARC 610T amps.

Interesting. Upgrading the switches is definitely the way to go.

I will say I am trying them all in stock form first, then choosing the top two will upgrade from there.

I hear a lot of good things in the past about the NetGear's for audio, and in my testing I was surprised to see the stock Netgear finish a distant last place.

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

There are a couple specific problems associated with using "consumer grade" Ethernet switches (e.g. TP link, Netgear and Cisco) for hi-res audio applications: a) low- and high-source leakage impedance current, b) threshold jitter, and c) phase noise. These cause problems that result in an audible degradation audio quality when these are use in high-resolving audio applications (these products were not designed for this application). This is why there are now a number of products that've been developed for "high-end" audio applications, e.g. EtherRegen, SOtM sNH-10G, English Electric, Aqvox, Melco, etc., and the considerably more expensive switches from Nordost, etc.

My hypothesis is all the "consumer-grade" switches referenced above will like sound like cr*p compared to the ones designed for high-end audio, they may just sound like cr*p in different ways. Also, using these "consumer grade" with the SMPS they usually come with is a sure way to produce even poorer audio qualty, they all require a quiet linear power supply. However, using them with a quiet LPS will do nothing for the amount of phase noise produced from their crap clocks that cost a coupla cents in a BOM.

I totally agree.

Fiber optic is in the next round, then higher quality switches will be in the following round after that.

I'm trying to get a baseline first for what most people start with / will have as a reference piece in which to compare the next steps from.

I felt going right to the higher quality stuff doesn't really give me a baseline to compare to and understand what the improvements are.

I tried a pair of Startech fiber converters and a pair of Trendnet switches that had fiber ports in my system.

To my surprise, the less expensive Trendnet switches sounded much better. I had gone out of my way to not buy the cheapest fiber converter and the Startech I bought were about $75 each. The Trendnet switch was under $55.

With the Fiber converters connected to my streamer the sound lacked clarity and sounded congested for lack of a better description. It was a step backward compared to wired ethernet.

Then I tried the Trendnet switches and the sound issue was resolved and improved. Then I added iFi power supplies on the switches and thought I heard an additional improvement.

I should add that I used the same Startech SFP modules with fiber converters and switches.

Originally Posted by Rnrmf

I tried a pair of Startech fiber converters and a pair of Trendnet switches that had fiber ports in my system.

To my surprise, the less expensive Trendnet switches sounded much better. I had gone out of my way to not buy the cheapest fiber converter and the Startech I bought were about $75 each. The Trendnet switch was under $55.

With the Fiber converters connected to my streamer the sound lacked clarity and sounded congested for lack of a better description. It was a step backward compared to wired ethernet.

Then I tried the Trendnet switches and the sound issue was resolved and improved. Then I added iFi power supplies on the switches and thought I heard an additional improvement.

I should add that I used the same Startech SFP modules with fiber converters and switches.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

I have both Finisar (recommended by Puma Cat) converter and transceiver and TP link converter and star tech transceiver I will be trying in comparison with each other.

I've considered one of the recommended Finisar SFP modules but I'm skeptical if I'd really hear improvements - I think streaming sounds fantastic right now in my system. There is another recommended Finisar module that is "industrial grade" or something like that and sells for around $350 I think. It doesn't seem to be available anywhere at the moment, however.

It's worth noting I also use a Shunyata Omega ethernet cable from the switch to the streamer module built into my Vitus amp and that's the best ethernet cable I've tried. It was the icing on the cake. It does not and will not take the place of the ethernet set up I described above with the switches and fiber. The Omega isn't a short-cut that can take the place of other improvements is what I'm saying.

I'm interested in how the gear you got sounds in comparison to each other.

Originally Posted by Rnrmf

I've considered one of the recommended Finisar SFP modules but I'm skeptical if I'd really hear improvements - I think streaming sounds fantastic right now in my system. There is another recommended Finisar module that is "industrial grade" or something like that and sells for around $350 I think. It doesn't seem to be available anywhere at the moment, however.

It's worth noting I also use a Shunyata Omega ethernet cable from the switch to the streamer module built into my Vitus amp and that's the best ethernet cable I've tried. It was the icing on the cake. It does not and will not take the place of the ethernet set up I described above with the switches and fiber. The Omega isn't a short-cut that can take the place of other improvements is what I'm saying.

I'm interested in how the gear you got sounds in comparison to each other.

I'll keep you updated. Also debating on whether to add a base SOtM switch or AQVOX switch to the test. The loaded AQVOX is the same price as the base level SOtM.

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

I'll keep you updated. Also debating on whether to add a base SOtM switch or AQVOX switch to the test. The loaded AQVOX is the same price as the base level SOtM.

You must have a contact somewhere Michael. You are always going to wonder if you don't try one of those for a comparison.

I assure you we all want to know what you think about the differences in them.

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

...Finisar FTLF1324P2BTV...

I had come across another recommended Finisar on Audiophile Style - the FTLF8519P3BNL

Do you know if whoever it was compared that with the FTLF1324P2BTV you mention?

I'm also going to be testing which PORT sounds better (if any) on the switches for the output - the one closest to the input or the one furthest away.

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

I'm also going to be testing which PORT sounds better (if any) on the switches for the output - the one closest to the input or the one furthest away.

the port in the middle, is just right

Originally Posted by CPP

the port in the middle, is just right

OK Goldilocks.

fwiw: here are two threads documenting my research and implementation of an audio transport and the associated network ... ie: everything upstream from my DAC ...enjoy

> a trip up the digital stream

> the last mile — sonore opticalRendu


and if you really want to get into the weeds:

> phase noise -- what is old is new again?

__________________________________________________ _

btw: at this point i have moved on to analog -- and pretty much only use digital for streaming titles that i am interested in purchasing in vinyl format. in terms of system and musical enjoyment, could no be happier!!

Originally Posted by aKnyght

fwiw: here are two threads documenting my research and implementation of an audio transport and the associated network ... ie: everything upstream from my DAC ...enjoy

> a trip up the digital stream

> the last mile — sonore opticalRendu


and if you really want to get into the weeds:

> phase noise -- what is old is new again?

__________________________________________________ _

btw: at this point i have moved on to analog -- and pretty much only use digital for streaming titles that i am interested in purchasing in vinyl format. in terms of system and musical enjoyment, could no be happier!!

I'll definitely read. Thanks for sharing!

OK guys - I may have to postpone step 2 in the testing. I was enjoying (no critical listening) the new improved sound with my ethernet audio tonight to become familiar with the new baseline for tomorrow and decided to download and try Qobuz to compare to my Tidal subscription.

HOLY CRAP!!!!!

Qobuz so kicked the butt of Tidal up and down the street I need a couple of days of listening to get used to how good it sounds before moving on to step 2 otherwise my findings will be all skewed.

Ground induced parasitic power supply leakage currents, clock phase noise, threshold ambiguity in DAC’s are all known and real phenomena. What hasn’t yet been done is a rigorous scientific proof of how these mechanisms impact reproduced sound. So far all I’ve seen is hand waving, anecdotal listening experiences, or just crickets. While plausible hypotheses have been raised as to the sonic impact of these mechanisms, I have not as yet seen a set of experiments of sufficient quality to show that any suggested solutions make an impact outside of the listeners cerebral cortex.

Originally Posted by W9TR

Ground induced parasitic power supply leakage currents, clock phase noise, threshold ambiguity in DAC’s are all known and real phenomena. What hasn’t yet been done is a rigorous scientific proof of how these mechanisms impact reproduced sound. So far all I’ve seen is hand waving, anecdotal listening experiences, or just crickets. While plausible hypotheses have been raised as to the sonic impact of these mechanisms, I have not as yet seen a set of experiments of sufficient quality to show that any suggested solutions make an impact outside of the listeners cerebral cortex.

The cure is worse than the disease. Mr. 6th degree BB in breaking wind is still recommending a complex streaming hookup that entails multiple conversions of ethernet to fiber and back to ethernet that he personally removed from his system because it's inherently unreliable. You don't even need industry titles that proves you are a quality guru to know this is still a bad idea.

At the end of the day, all conclusions are based on what the experimenters ears tell him which may not mesh with what others hear in their system. It's all subjective.

Common sense tells you to keep your digital chain as simple as possible for it to work optimally. Adding needless complexity adds unreliability to your network.

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

Update: So I spent a couple of hours last night on this getting a new baseline on sound before I try the next round of tests which include much more expensive ethernet cables.

I've run all my baseline tests with BJC cat 6a cables. Why? Because they are one of the few cables I know of that come with a test spec sheet for each individual cable proving it is actually a true 6a or better rated cable. Many of the mass market cables being sold are from china and do not actually meet their rated speed claims.

In the ethernet audio forums there is a lot of talk about the Supra Cat 8 cable being a 'budget killer' and outperforming more expensive cables yet only costs $50. So I bought one along with the other cables I will be trying as a super cheap option on cable.

I was excited looking forward to a lift in SQ when using the Supra. Yet In my tests last night there was no difference in sound between the Supra and the $12 BJC. I think this speaks to the BJC being a very solid entry level ethernet cable to use until someone is ready to step up to higher end cables.

We'll see how the other tests pan out.

Is the BJC cable shielded or unshielded? I don't think the BJC site specifies. I've been experimenting with 2 types of unshielded CAT6 with one claiming much "higher bandwidth" than the other. I've been comparing those to a CAT8 cable I like a lot but that's obviously strongly shielded. There is an inexpensive unshielded 6a that I considered trying but it has POE and I'm not sure if that's something I want in my streaming chain. I don't need the POE feature but I don't know if it could be a source of noise transmission in an otherwise unshielded 6a cable.

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

Hi - I believe it is unshielded. the BJC is so inexpensive on Amazon you should give it a try. I burn in my ethernet cables before trying any listening on them and my OCD makes me keep them all directional.

I forgot that Amazon sold them - pictures on Amazon and questions answered by BJC confirm it's unshielded at the connector ends though it has foil to prevent what they call "alien crosstalk (AXT) from neighboring cables." Thanks for the suggestion. I might give them a try as the build is a little different than the unshielded CAT6 I'm currently trying.

I was quite skeptical about the value of "audiophile" Ethernet switches until I compared the EtherRegen to stock Cisco and TP-link switches and to no switch. I was also skeptical about the "need" for a LPS for the EtherRegen. Note that the EtherRegen and my HDPlex LPS are at the low end (pricewise) to what is out there. Nevertheless the difference in sound quality switching back and forth (using qobuz) was apparent even to my non-audiophile wife who was blinded to the source. One caveat; I use an ASUS non-audiophile grade router and a long run of fairly generic CAT6 (the BJC mentioned above) into the EtherRegen. It is possible that a better Ethernet cable from router to switch would equal or better the sound of the improved switch, but it would cost more than the switch.

I do have the potential to move the switch and server close to the router and upgrade that Ethernet cable (although there are some physical home logistical problems with this approach for me). The Uptone Audio folks claim that shouldn't matter, but others' experiences suggest that may not be true.

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

What it's dependent primarily for audio on is the amount of leakage current from el-cheapo upstream devices. This causes threshold jitter, which impacts timing. Which we can easily hear. They're also sensitive to common-mode noise. And the terminations used.

Which brings up a question about the relative importance of Ethernet cables compared to the upstream devices (i.e., cable modem, router, their power supplies, etc.). Every now and then I read some opinions and observations at Audiophile Style about different modems and routers and their possible effects on sound quality, without any carefully conducted listening tests that I have read.

Like Steve I don't use streaming for critical listening, so much of that may not be important for me (but "may not" means the same thing as "may"). Critical (digital) listening is from files on a NAS that are cached in RAM on the server prior to play.

Originally Posted by rbbert

Which brings up a question about the relative importance of Ethernet cables compared to the upstream devices (i.e., cable modem, router, their power supplies, etc.). Every now and then I read some opinions and observations at Audiophile Style about different modems and routers and their possible effects on sound quality, without any carefully conducted listening tests that I have read.

Like Steve I don't use streaming for critical listening, so much of that may not be important for me (but "may not" means the same thing as "may"). Critical (digital) listening is from files on a NAS that are cached in RAM on the server prior to play.

Why bother to pay to stream music if it's not good enough for "critical" listening?

I second the OpticalRendu solution. You need a switch with Optical Ethernet outputs tho (or a simple TPLink Wired Ethernet to Optical Etherned converter).

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

You can't buy an OpticalRendu anymore, they've been discontinued, unfortunately.

? The Sonore site says OR is sold out not discontinued. The MR says discontinued though.

Can’t imagine they would discontinue the OR, maybe a new version but discontinued?

You can still order the Sonore Optical Module from Small Green Computer. I have been using one for several years.

My set-up modem > Netgear Orbi Router > Trendnet switch with optical port > long run fiber optic > optical module > Shunyata ethernet > dCS Upsampler

I can't quantify SQ improvements but it is very quiet and rock solid.

Mike - feel free to delete this post if it breaks a forum rule.

But as I research more ethernet audio, I can across this review on an ethernet cable from a few years ago. The posts in the comments section back and forth between cable skeptics and the staff is very entertaining!


Review: Heresy with a Nordost Heimdall 2 ethernet cable - Part-Time Audiophile

Here is my favorite reply. In fact I think I'm going to borrow it and add it to my signature.

Editorial Staff says:
JANUARY 23, 2018 AT 3:39 PM

We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw.

ETA: this other AWESOME response:

Screen Shot 2022-12-09 at 8.43.28 AM.png

I don't understand what the point of the above post is beyond showing that audiophiles never agree on anything. Has anyone on AS compared the Nordost ethernet cable to the Supra CAT 8? If so, I would love to hear your thoughts.

Originally Posted by mep

I don't understand what the point of the above post is beyond showing that audiophiles never agree on anything. Has anyone on AS compared the Nordost ethernet cable to the Supra CAT 8? If so, I would love to hear your thoughts.

I ran across the Supra Cat-8 cables a few years ago. It IMO brought some quieting to my digital end. So, I ended up replacing my basic ethernet cables to computer,TV,GigaFoil, modem, Orbi wifi router coming from the English 8 switch. For a rather low price point they helped create a very stable digital side of my systems streaming. Pictured mess below.

Steaming mess.jpg

Originally Posted by Darrel

I ran across the Supra Cat-8 cables a few years ago. It IMO brought some quieting to my digital end. So, I ended up replacing my basic ethernet cables to computer,TV,GigaFoil, modem, Orbi wifi router coming from the English 8 switch. For a rather low price point they helped create a very stable digital side of my systems streaming. Pictured mess below.

Steaming mess.jpg

For $50 each (1M) they are definitely a good cable and a no-brainer . Though I don't feel they are the dragon-slayer others (not you) have claimed them to be.

I just finished some extensive testing with them today and surprisingly have only found them to be slightly better than BJC certified Cat 6+. This REALLY surprised me.

Before I updated switches the difference was almost non-existent between the two. Then after updating the Supra was a bit nicer than the BJC, but I expected better of it (I am certainly not saying it is a bad cable, just expected more from it).

I then moved to a $700 SOtM cable today we received for testing and that was definitely more noticeable, but again, I think people are missing out by spending money on cables first and not figure out what works best from a switch point of view. I am currently testing THREE and FOUR name brand switches inline and will have a review soon.

To put it in perspective I got a much bigger improvement with the switch set up I will be detailing than I ever got with just any cable - even the $700 one.

My most important ethernet cable in the digital end as far as audio impact. Is the Shunyata Alpha ethernet cable that runs from my silent computer to the Rose.

Originally Posted by Darrel

My most important ethernet cable in the digital end as far as audio impact. Is the Shunyata Alpha ethernet cable that runs from my silent computer to the Rose.

That is a NICE cable.

Originally Posted by Swisstrips

That is interesting. I've recently switched to an Aqua stack (La Scala mkII optologic + Linq with HQP modules) using Aqua's I2s connection (which is a must IMHO) from a opticalrendu and USB DAC's (Lampi / Holo). So it's been USB for the last couple yrs.

Since I run fiber to my listening room i did (had to) purchase the latest optical module deluxe and a short eth cable (blue jeans 6a) to the LinQ (using revelation audiolabs I2s). I thought "I'm done with USB for awhile". Now I have introduced eth and I2s cables,

I made the exact same transition on the hardware side and couldn’t be more pleased. My ethernet cable is a Wireworld Starlight 8 and I2S is Ghent. Haven’t taken the time to compare to anything else. I’m very satisfied with what I’m hearing.