Thread: electical power delivery from utility to rack - for the uninitiated

for the uninitiated to this subject, it would great to hear members' recommendations for delivering electric power from the main circuit panel to the rack.

i am assuming all this removes any electrical noise generated by other usage within the house, but could be wrong in this.

several specific questions:

what is the topology of the circuitry? ie: main panel > sub-panel > outlet(s) ?

what would an audiophile materials list for the job? ie: type/brand and specs of panel, circuit breaker, wire, outlet, etc.

recommended amperage or a method to determine based upon system equipment requirements?

anything else on this subject would be welcomed as well.

thanks!!

I think KingRex or another did a whole detailed thread on this last year.

I ran a dedicated 20amp line from my box to a receptacle box using Hospital Grade outlets. Just getting everything off of the rest of the house is a major improvement. Then you can shoot for the stars from there.

The benefits are some of the best you can do. We are starting a business doing this.


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For years I used two 20 amp outlets/circuits in my stereo room. It served me well when I was into home theater. Going to just a two channel system over the last three years I wanted a more isolated power to my equipment. So, recently I had two more 20 amp/circuits added to the room. The biggest improvement I heard was to the Diablo 300. Having it on its own power outlet gave me a instant boost in the dynamics and bass from the DIablo. To each their own as to how they handle their homes power distribution. But, it was for me a rather inexpensive improvement.

20 amp outlets (3).jpg

thanks for all the helpful advice here... sounds like a pretty straightforward thing to do. in my case, run a separate 20 amp circuit from the main panel to the two outlets on the wall behind my system. sounds, like 10awg wire to hospital-grade or audiophile outlets would do the job. also, looks like a sub-panel is not necessary.

i am sure there are more involved methods of doing this but i am assuming that this simple modification gets a high percentage of the all the possible benefit.

anything i am missing here?

anything you would do differently?

thanks!!

When the house was being built (given the fact that this is the 3rd new house I've owned and first since arc fault breakers became code), I had them run a 20 amp circuit (for my Torus 20 amp conditioner) and two separate 15 amp circuits (I have an integrated AV system) besides what was in the room. There are also tweaks that can help with things like generated EMF (both homemade and available for sale). In my prior house (which was wired probably in the first half of 1997), I had an extra circuit run on its own receptacle in addition to what was in the room. For the current house (bulit 7 years ago), I specified everything I wanted with detailed room diagrams for both high and low voltage. I have 300 amp electrical service coming into the house.

Originally Posted by Speedskater

Are you using:

• metal conduit (ridge or flexible)?
• Plastic conduit?
• non- metallic cable NM-B (aka Romex®)?

i am starting with a blank slate here -- all specs are wide open and am looking for whatever would make the most difference.

After a period of time with trial and error experience I finally reached AC nirvana. This is three dedicated 20 amp lines. One line for each amp, and a line for the pre-amp and other gear. The important issue is the lines only support the stereo gear.

Originally Posted by Duke97

Is there a recommendation for good 20A circuit breakers (Brand & Model) of a for dedicated lines? I'm in the middle of new home construction (in USA) and putting in dedicated lines.

Thanks,
Duke

Square D and call it a day IMO.

But I suspect there's some cryo treated, gold plated, audiophile certified piece out there for ridiculous $$ just itching to get in somebody's box ...............

Originally Posted by Devg

How do you guys run the wires from the panel to the audio room in an existing construction ? In my previous home, the mail panel was just outside the audio/ht room and the electrician drilled holes from the outside wall and used a conduit to run the wires. It was easy. My current home is a two story, mostly open floor plan construction and have concrete floor. I am very interested in running a dedicated 20A line but not sure if the electrician can easily fish the wires from the panel (which is situated in the garage) to where its needed. One option is to run the wires from outside perimeter of the wall (I will be a long run). Hence I am curious what folks typically do in these situations.

Mine was fun. I was unable to run conduit, but still made a huge difference. My panel is on the outer wall of may garage. My listening-living room is the other end of the house. I had to go up into the crawl space - attic above the garage, then between the drop ceiling and the next floor, thru the wall of where my heater is, then down into the crawl space under my living room and up behind my rack thru the floor. I used heavy insulated outdoor 10g cable terminated at hospital grade outlets which other than the breaker would be the weak kinks.

My panel is outside on the back wall. AC circuits come up into the attic, and then to the rooms. No problem if you do that when the house is being built, but a problem adding new lines. For my stereo the lines come up into the attic, and then drop down a living room wall and are terminated into Shunyata sockets. The only reason I could do this was because when the house was built a heater was installed there. A previous owner removed it, and installed a central heater/AC. This was fortunate because all the studs have a horizontal board between them, which prevent dropping a new AC line into a room. Otherwise I would have needed to remove the sheet rock, remove the horizontal stud, install the AC lines, re-install new sheet rock, and paint it.

The A/V electronics are served by a dedicated 100A electrical sub-panel next to the media room. (4) 20A circuits with (2) 20A Furutech GTX-D duplex receptacles used on the circuits with the auxiliary equipment and stereo amp. The sub uses a third 20A circuit.

Twisted pair wiring (#12) is used for each circuit with the neutral and hot wires wrapped on 2" centers and the ground wire placed parallel in PVC conduit. A paper presented at the 2010 AES 129th Convention shows this method has the lowest ground voltage induction tested.

The speakers are dead quiet at idle.

It sounds easy. Just add some outlets, right. Its actually far from easy to do it right. It takes an amazing amount of thought and implementation. I have been studying how to do it best for a few years. Ed and I have been experimenting at his and my house for while now. I have done a few small projects for clients now too. Ed is starting a business I am a part of. There is a real need as its more complex than you think. I have Ed system down to 7 MV of potential between ground and neutral at his sub panel about 42 feet from his service. That is very low. I have my system at 0 mv of potential at my cord ends at my equipment. There is about 26 feet of wire from my service to ends of the cords. Most houses I walk into start with hundreds of mv of potential at random places in their panels. Most have spurious ground issues. All this floating of voltage potential causes humming out your speakers and in your transformers. It sucks dynamics and clarity. If you toss a few 10 awg romex feeds to your rack you will get a nice gain over 12 or 14 awg that is in your general wall receptacle feeds. It wont shed any of the noise that may be bothering you. If noise is not an issue then your lucky. But if noise was not an issue, there would be a lot less power conditioners being sold. My system is now dead, dead quiet and I really have little as far as conditioning. The only real conditioner I have is an Akiko Corelli. I have some Add Power gear, but I don't know that address noise. It seems to be more about a gain in speed and dynamics. Music is much more alive. It kind of falls flat when I unplug the Symphony.

i am in the US -- there is access to everything from the mechanical room in the basement which is below the listening room, so it would be a fairly easy thing to have done.

Originally Posted by Tubes

I ran a dedicated 20 amp line to the outlet behind my system and it was a worthwhile investment. To take it to the next level though I bought PS Audio P3 Power Plant which is a power regenerator. It takes the AC that's coming in from the outlet, converts it to DC and then reconverts it to an ultra-clean, hash free AC signal that makes a huge improvement in dynamics, bass and the size of the soundstage.

sounds like an effective power strategy.

just thinking out loud here on an unfamiliar subject... if one uses a power regenerator like the ps audio p3, would not that make whatever power distribution chain coming before it irrelevant? sort of like the power equivalent of optical isolation?

Originally Posted by Kingrex

I know exactly what a regenerator is. Its a ac to dc inverter feeding a battery bank followed by another dc to ac inverter. Its limited by the ability of the dc to ac inverter.
Solar systems are also dc to ac inverters. Never put solar on your house if you want good audio. They are very noisy. I have never heard a P10. I assume PS Audio uses a better inverter than Sonnyboy or Outback or one of the other commercially available ones out there. Batteries also make noise. If they were so good, many phono stages, DAC, Servers etc would use them. They don't for a reason. Even Sutherland uses wall power in place of a bunch of DC batteries now.

But still, you should not need any regenerators or filters. You probably have a few other issues in the power distribution at your house. And your local electrician won't find them. I built up Eds house, then his plant electricians, very skilled guys, showed up, did not understand why I did what I did and tore my work out. I showed back up and put meters in his gear and proved what I was doing was valid. The sound improved when I was done.

There could be situations where you need a something or another because you have issues out of your control. Before I invested in anythig like a power filter or regenerator, I would think about what is feeding the rack. What is injecting noise into your audio.

""What is injecting noise into your audio" Agree stop it at the source, and it might not even be in your house.

Simplicity succeeds, complexity fails. A dedicated line(s) with Shunyata power gear is all that is needed.

Originally Posted by Mikado463

Square D and call it a day IMO.

But I suspect there's some cryo treated, gold plated, audiophile certified piece out there for ridiculous $$ just itching to get in somebody's box ...............

I agree with Dave on SQ D. Just be sure you use the QO line not the HomeLine. There is a big difference in quality.

Addressing before the wall detail allows for better choices after the wall. This is something once done, it’s final, a foundation.


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Originally Posted by brad225

I agree with Dave on SQ D. Just be sure you use the QO line not the HomeLine. There is a big difference in quality.

QO is copper bus. Homeline is some mix. Make sure to purchase copper ground bars.

While the Square D "QO" panel is indeed a great panel and one of the best on the market for residential, I would encourage you to look at the Cutler Hammer "CH" panel. The CH panel is designed similar to the QO panel, but adds a retention clip to the buss contacts.

https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/cata...ibution-controls-systems/ch-load-centers.html

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

I think KingRex or another did a whole detailed thread on this last year.

I ran a dedicated 20amp line from my box to a receptacle box using Hospital Grade outlets. Just getting everything off of the rest of the house is a major improvement. Then you can shoot for the stars from there.

This is my current arrangement for the monoblock amps. Newly run 20 amp circuit. I have a Bryson BiT15 for the pre/Dac/phono/TT stack, which is physically separate from amps +speakers.i recently got a double width rack fo the amps. Depending on finances, I will choose a power conditioner for the amp side of my system. Or move the Bryston over, and get something simple for the pre side of my system?

the "how to wire your house for good power" FAQ on the MSB support page has what seems to be a great first (and perhaps last) step on this topic -- it is echoed by many posting on this tread.

the article indicates a dedicated circuit with large gauge wire (10awg or larger) might obviate the need for any further power conditioning, regenerating, etc.

Originally Posted by aKnyght

the "how to wire your house for good power" FAQ on the MSB support page has what seems to be a great first (and perhaps last) step on this topic -- it is echoed by many posting on this tread.

the article indicates a dedicated circuit with large gauge wire (10awg or larger) might obviate the need for any further power conditioning, regenerating, etc.

Vince laid it out nicely, though I was hesitant and still am to do the silver paste.


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Reg panels i do like copper buss better but bolt down on copper is best. it also is much safer to work on. I never like the idea of pushing on a breaker onto buss with just an 1/8 inch plastic Insulator and it is both phases no less.