Thread: Don’t real audiophiles own their own media?

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

= Audiophile

No - Satisfied Audiophile

Edited: I should have added the person on the journey to finding this end game system is still an audiophile. They are just at a different stage of development.

Originally Posted by Calvin

I’m for owning my own media. IMO this is part and parcel of being a real audiophile. What about you?

This is why I consider myself a "real" music lover, and not necessarily a "real" audiophile (whatever that means).

I used to think that audiophiles were primarily music lovers who also enjoyed a good reproduction. But I am no longer sure.

I see now that way too many 'audiophiles' are primarily obsessed with gears as opposed to music. They prefer to listen mediocre artists/performances over great artists/performances because the first were recorded using the latest state-of-the-art equipment. They obsess over stuff that cannot be corroborated by science but somehow they "hear" it. They must own and hoard the physical media in preparation for the upcoming black swan event that will create a major internet failure just at the precise moment when they want to listen to music. Calling it an OCD condition is now normal, in fact, many are proud to be considered 'disordered' in that way. And of course, everything matters! Yes, the color of the knob or the green pens or the CD rings, they all matter. If one asks for scientific proof, the answer becomes: Who needs science when I can trust my 70 years old ears?. No wonder why so many folks consider audiophiles to be audio-fools.

I don't want to be called an audiophile, let alone a "real" audiophile (whatever that means).

Some are Audiophiles In Name Only - AINOs - they ain't real.

Real audiophiles know better than to argue over such silly things. Real audiophiles also know the real limitations of their own ears. Kirkville - Well-Crafted Study Shows Listeners Cannot Distinguish Between CD-Quality and High-Resolution Music Files

I love music in just about all formats (vinyl preferred), I love the gear, I love learning new things related to getting better sound which makes the music better. I spend way too much time reading audio forums. Am I an audiophile? My inner self is confused.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by rbbert

I'm not sure who "not one" of those musicians is/are. Plenty of musicians did worry then and worry now about sound; perhaps not most, but a significant percentage. Why do you think so many of those to whom you refer went to Rudy van Gelder's house (not recording studio) to make their albums? That is just the simplest and most obvious example; there are many more. The Grateful Dead were chronically in debt for at least half their career because they kept pouring their profits back into their sound system.

They went to Rudy van Gelder because that’s what their label (and contract wanted them to do) Rudy was the guy to go to for many labels. That’s not the point. The musicians played at many clubs and venues live and neither then, nor today, does a musician worry about acoustics. When I saw Chick Corea or many others live in my city, they don’t worry about bringing their own bass traps and acoustic panels. They just play where and how it is. The recording studio worries about its sound rooms. The musicians simply play. The bigger question is why so few musicians are audiophiles but I already covered that. It’s not about the sound to them. To us it is.

Originally Posted by rbbert

You are not quite right about van Gelder and recording. Not only did many musicians prefer to record there because of the sound, some refused to because they didn’t like the sound. And not being an “audiophile” is way way different than not caring about sound. Why do you think guitarists have so many guitars, and often use several different ones during a concert? Why do you think drummers choose different cymbals, or sax players different reeds? Most concert venues do in fact use a variety of acoustic treatments, and they often change depending on musician preference among other things. I also thought it was well known that some venues are “preferred” by a majority of musicians because of their acoustics; I guess that is news to you, though?

The fact remains the same, few musicians are interested in high end audio.

I’m not a musician but I would assume that Owning Many instruments and the preference of one to the other is the tone and the way it expresses the emotional content, not how it will sound over someone’s high end audio. Although the word “sound” is quite interchangeable with tone/timbre here but a violinist will obviously prefer a “timbre” of one over the other while both can sound great to an audiophile... Do you personally have a strong preference of any drum sets, guitars, violins that you listen to on your system? Perhaps a Baldwin piano and nothing else will do for your taste? No? Why not? Because you would not recognize a particular instrument in a recording while enjoying a good sound? Do you personally prefer a Steinway over a Baldwin? Probably not? But a pianist would have a preference of a concert piano for sure...

The recording engineer worries about the sound. That’s what they do as they alter the sound during mixing and mastering to bring us the final product. Hence all the butchered music that was loudness masted for more sales for the label back in the days. The musicians were not always for it as it butchered their art. The sales for the labels however were probably much more important than a musicians pride.

Originally Posted by Gregm

Let me propose the following:
There is a difference between creating music and reproducing the sound of music.
Musicians create the music;
Music & audio hobbyists are concerned about reproducing the recorded musical session in their homes.

Music lovers enjoy listening to the piece of music while pure audiophiles appreciate the reproduction SQ.

I'm guessing that most (all) of us here are looking to increase our enjoyment of music through improvements in the SQ of our systems.

I would agree, but the majority of the responses have been from music lovers.

SQ is dependent upon many things including the media used. Streaming doesn’t provide the best media. Take for instance, “The Doors.” Nothing that you may stream by The Doors can equal this - not even close -

The Doors-The Doors-45 RPM Vinyl Record|Acoustic Sounds

Media matters to an Audiophile.

Originally Posted by Gregm

Let me propose the following:
There is a difference between creating music and reproducing the sound of music.
Musicians create the music;
Music & audio hobbyists are concerned about reproducing the recorded musical session in their homes.

Music lovers enjoy listening to the piece of music while pure audiophiles appreciate the reproduction SQ.

I'm guessing that most (all) of us here are looking to increase our enjoyment of music through improvements in the SQ of our systems.

I would realistically break it down into three categories. With a bit of dramatization for clarity...

1. Audiophile-- This is a great "piano" recording!
2. Music Lover--This is a great version of Beethoven's 5th
3. Musician-- This is the Boston Symphony Orchestra performing Beethoven's No.5 in C minor OP.67 with Seiji Ozawa conducting when he was a conductor from 1973-2002 at BSO...

Note that numbers 2 and 3 can also be audiophiles.

Originally Posted by Calvin

I would agree, but the majority of the responses have been from music lovers.

SQ is dependent upon many things including the media used. Streaming doesn’t provide the best media. Take for instance, “The Doors.” Nothing that you may stream by The Doors can equal this - not even close -

The Doors-The Doors-45 RPM Vinyl Record|Acoustic Sounds

Media matters to an Audiophile.

Vinyl--- Did I clean this record? Is my stylus clean? Is my rig setup optimally? Why does my rig suffer from such static pops in the winter? What is that surface noise, I thought this was a good pressing... I think my VTF and VTA need tweaking. What was it I wanted to listen to a few minutes ago? Where is that record again? Why is it warped, I thought I had it stored properly.... Damn...

Streamer--- I see 12 versions of the Doors album. Hmmm. This one looks good. Click Play. Ah! That a is good!

Physical Media Audiophile. I'm in the mood for Beethoven's 5th this afternoon... I have this on this CD, this one and that one... I also have this on this record and that one...

Streaming Audiophile. I'm in the mood for Beethoven's 5th this afternoon. Click.... I see 1724 versions between Tidal and Qobuz. Which orchestra and conductor do I prefer? Oh yeah, let's play the Pittsburg Symphony Orchestra, nope, not that great, how about London Symphony? Not bad, how about Berlin Sympohony, OH... WOW, that's the one! I have 1721 more versions to explore. Which Symphony, part of the world, year and conductor do I prefer? Can't believe I have access to all this!

Originally Posted by Mike

Oh look what we have here, a steak cooked to perfection at a three star Michelin restaurant.



Oh look over there, 12 steaks from the Golden Coral.



Quality matters.

Mike, you honestly believe every audiophile is enjoying a top notch vinyl rig setup optimally? As an audio dealer, I know you know better.... I don't find anything wrong with listening to whatever you want but let's call a spade a spade here OK?

Strangely enough, I thought I heard quite a difference between my Technics SL1200 MKIV, my AES Paschetto, my SME 20.2, my friends TW-Acustic Raven AC, another friends VPI Aries, another Clearaudio Innovation and I have heard others at various dealers... Not sure how to quantify the difference. We keep going around in circles here saying that every analog lover is eating a steak at a three star restaurant. Is that really so or does it just sound good in theory?

That's the problem, we can't seem to agree on absolute terms here. Some think a Chord Mojo for $500 sounds great, because it does. Another audiophile will want the Taiko Extreme feeding MSB $100k DAC.

Statistically speaking the musician cares not one bit about either... But he does have a preference for his/her musical instrument.

Ask an audiophile to identify a Steinway, a Baldwin, a Bösendorfer on his Taiko Exteme feeding an MSB DAC though... Good luck.

Now we are arguing about quantity over quality as if all streaming is now inferior to the used LPs in most audiophiles collections. They are USED if you spin them before you get upset at my terminology.

I don't get this at all, are we just arguing for the sake of arguing here? What is the point of this thread? To convince people to drop streaming and start collecting vinyl? We have objectively covered the pluses and minuses of each.

Do as you like at the end of the day.

In the time it took to type out the last 5 posts, I have discovered 3 new musicians I have never heard on Qobuz that I want to listen to now. I'm having fun with streaming! Love it. Have fun collecting physical media, I have done that for decades as well.

Having owned various turntables, tonearms, cartridges, phonostages, CD players, transports, DACs and now into streaming, I think I have a fairly good understanding of the concept of not only good sound, which is important, but even more importantly what I prefer. There will be tradeoffs with any of the technology we use to reproduce recorded music in our listening rooms or our headphones. It is a fact. I do not suffer from delusional thinking I am chasing some perfection with my audio and will be the first to admit my system is nowhere near the "accurate" category. It is musical and enjoyable and that is to my own ears and not necessarily anyone elses.

Much like a chef did not ask you to assist in preparing that steak for you, the recording engineer did not call up John, Joe and Peter to ask how they would like their music served on the record or a CD. Not even the digitally stored versions of the streaming platforms. Oh, the heresy!

That moment, when the bow resonated the body of the Stradivarius through the strings in the skilled hands of a concert violinist, will never sound the same no matter how much one wants it to be true. Unless you hire that musician to do the same in your own room. So starting the conversation from that perspective, should be obvious enough to audiophiles that we are chasing some abstract and unobtainable goals.

There was too much in the signal path between that moment of "analog" sound wave propagation and interaction with the acoustic space, captured by the various sounding microphones that added their own flavor, followed by the recording engineer feeding the signal through hundreds of feet of regular, industry standard, patch cables and electronic circuitry in the mixing console...

So everything we do as audiophiles, is for the pleasure and enjoyment of the pre-recorded music. Whatever form it materializes into our living rooms. By definition, if every component and cable makes a difference, then only one of them can ever be RIGHT, while every other is then by definition is WRONG.

So what are we arguing about here other than having fun listening to whatever version we have concocted in our living rooms? Shouldn't it be about enjoying music? No one says one must sacrifice or should not spend whatever they desire on their dream system/music making machines. Or what and how to feed through them for music to come out the other end...

Mike, good post about the state of digital above. It is what it is. No one asked neither you nor me how it should be done and I am not so sure I would be the person to ask because someone else may want something different... We all even hear things differently. Physiological fact. Our brain processes the sound through a complex mechanism and at the end, it is just neurons firing electrical signals through whatever A/D conversion and quality thereof.. Everyone will be different there too. Some are born with a Chord Mojo others like Mr. Albert Einstein obviously had a quality A/D converter installed by the powers that be.. It is more evident these days than ever before perhaps.

I would love to imagine a world where even the 1200 or so of my favorite Jazz albums can be acquired in the best quality imaginable on vinyl and be played back on the meanest, quietest, meatiest, turntable with the the blacks of the silence darker than the black hole itself and the highs as shimmery as the warm summer sun but without the scorching of my ears. Let the midrange be as juicy and meaty and as flavorful as the best steak you have ever tasted and the bass response so deep, tight and thunderous that it would make Thor jealous. Alas, there is that and there is the reality that I would never come up with even 1200 of those albums nor would I even attempt to.

See, the thing is, we keep coming back to sound quality vs actual music. So I will repeat myself again. I would rather be able to tell the difference between the various concert grand pianos, their tuning, maybe even recognize the hands that are playing but more realistically remember which composer and movement it is I am hearing on a very mediocre system...

I would much rather that, then saying, that is a nice piano recording on the I robbed a bank/won the lottery/spent my kids college fund/cashed in my retirement fund/ grandioso supreme system...

So it does really boil down to sound vs music...

Originally Posted by Mike

Then maybe forgo the system and only attend live performances or take up playing a musical instrument?

I’m a damn good Sax player, won awards and more, but I understand the difference between playing music and listening to music. I can also appreciate the quality of the recording and transfer itself.

As for those jazz records, if you bought the entire music matters jazz collection, you would have 175+ and be well on your way. I did. Best investment ever. No A2D in that process!

Music Matters: The Blue Note Reissue Series article @ All About Jazz


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Mike, I did have a nice collection of the Blue Note series. I used to subscribe to the individually numbered limited series through Elusive Disc. I stopped collecting after a while as it got old cleaning them and I actually preferred some XRCD versions that were available in terms of absolute sound quality. I got tired of tweaking my analog rig constantly while obsessing over sound. It took away from the listening experience itself.

As far as musical instruments, tried playing the guitar and piano but not enough musical talent to get great results. Practice did obviously improve things but not everyone is born to be a musician so I gave up a long time ago.

So I admire music but happen to have developed a level of tolerance for various sound qualities and zen like listening ability to enjoy the music itself, not the sound. As long as it doesn't offend my ear, I enjoy the music itself. I even enjoy music while driving my Jeep Wrangler Rubicon which has an Alpine system and a retractable soft top.... Far from high end system or the best acoustic environment but it still moves me in ways that are meaningful. I don't listen to the absence of quality but focus on the Jazz itself and life is good at those moments as I am rolling through the country side with the top open enjoying the scenery and my favorite music. I don't need a fancy system while sipping coffee with with my arm while the other is hanging out the side of the Jeep. Art Pepper's Alto-Sax, Coltrane's Tenor, velvety smooth Stan Getz, Coleman Hawkins serenading me with his big and breathy sax tone... Life is good indeed in those moment of much less than perfect acoustic reproduction of sound.

I can and do appreciate the passion of those seeking out and collecting media for their enjoyment. It is definitely a big part of the hobby and makes perfect sense. Have fun with it. Streaming opened up new horizons for me in the mean time. It is good to have so many choices these days.

I recently digitized my collection of 45rpm LPs. I tried using the ADC in my computer for the task. Supposedly it was good for high resolution but at first try I immediately decided that it had too many extraneous noises and the noise floor was too high.

So I did some research and purchased an ADC device (less than $500) that is commonly used by musicians making their own music. Using this ADC device, I digitized all my 45rpm LPs at 24/96 and created my own digitized copy with track names, album art, etc. I added the album to my server and it shows as one of the versions available in my Roon library. When listening to the digitized version and to the actual LP, I personally cannot tell a difference between the two. I can now play my entire 45rpm LP albums without having to get up from my chair. Moreover, I have asked other folks to try it out to see if they can tell a difference (one of them a good amateur musician with excellent hearing who says that he knows what to listen for) and they all believe that they are actually listening to the LP. The digitized version captured all of the noises inherent in the reproduction of the LP which so many of us are familiar with (both the euphonic noises and the ugly ones).

By the way, in the process of looking for suitable ADC, I learned that many professional musicians use the RME ADI-2 PRO FS R to make their own recordings and for playback. This device actually is both a ADC and a DAC and costs less than $2k.

Back on page 2 the idea of owning the media was a little blended into the idea of are you listening to the gear, or the media. I liked the distinction of gearophile and audiophile. I do see people I consider gearophile. They play awful recorded media because its suppose to reveal what your system is capable of. Then there are more the audiophiles (IMO) who are seeking the best form of media of great musical pieces. To be played back on equipment capable of revealing the truly great quality of the recording and masterimg.
Then there are people who are more just music lovers who can listen to anything and be overjoyed, simply because its their favorite album.

By considering it as above, I can see where an Audiophile needs to own some amount of music. Because in my definition, they are looking for some of the best, pristine versions of their favorite music. I would venture to say an Audiophile will have multiple copies of their favorite album, and be able to tell you how they differ. Even the all digital audiophile will have some DSD or high resolution downloads of their favorite music. They won't stop at pure steaming, knowing their favorite album has been done better.

Originally Posted by nicoff

I recently digitized my collection of 45rpm LPs. I tried using the ADC in my computer for the task. Supposedly it was good for high resolution but at first try I immediately decided that it had too many extraneous noises and the noise floor was too high.

So I did some research and purchased an ADC device (less than $500) that is commonly used by musicians making their own music. Using this ADC device, I digitized all my 45rpm LPs at 48/96 and created my own digitized copy with track names, album art, etc. I added the album to my server and it shows as one of the versions available in my Roon library. When listening to the digitized version and to the actual LP, I personally cannot tell a difference between the two. I can now play my entire 45rpm LP albums without having to get up from my chair. Moreover, I have asked other folks to try it out to see if they can tell a difference (one of them a good amateur musician with excellent hearing who says that he knows what to listen for) and they all believe that they are actually listening to the LP. The digitized version captured all of the noises inherent in the reproduction of the LP which so many of us are familiar with (both the euphonic noises and the ugly ones).

By the way, in the process of looking for suitable ADC, I learned that many professional musicians use the RME ADI-2 PRO FS R to make their own recordings and for playback. This device actually is both a ADC and a DAC and costs less than $2k.

OMG. And the gloves are off!!!!!!!🌝

Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne

seriously?

i have almost 1000 2xdsd vinyl rips, including many of my 45rpm records.

these were done with a Tascam DA-3000 and a Merging Technology NADAC, and a turntable. arm and cartridge the same as mine at that time.

zero of those rips get even close to my vinyl. it's trivial to hear the difference. i personally don't do rips because i have zero need to do it. i prefer hearing everything as native as possible. but i do enjoy these 2xdsd rips. they are very fine sounding....for digital.

i have invested much time and effort to optimize my vinyl and my digital. no stone left unturned with either. but who can know the details of anyone else's efforts. so any result is possible.

Seriously. I only did my 45rpm LPs because I felt those were the best sounding LPs in my collection and would allow me to better compare the sound using the exact same system. During the comparison, I played back the digital version in the original format that I recorded it (24/96). However, under normal listening I can now convert the digital signal to 512DSD (8xDSD), and then add FIR and correction filters to enhance the playback in my room (I use HQPlayer). I have reached the point where I no longer have an interest in investing on my analog system. I find my digital equally satisfying and certainly much more convenient. About 98% of my LP collection is available via streaming and the remaining albums (in my view) are not worth the effort of digitizing (not to mention that I can still play those LPs if I wanted to!). Maybe if I had invested as much time and money in a system as yours I would feel differently, but I also realize that it all comes to down to preferences. I respect that.

Originally Posted by nicoff

About 98% of my LP collection is available via streaming and the remaining albums (in my view) are not worth the effort of digitizing (not to mention that I can still play those LPs if I wanted to!). Maybe if I had invested as much time and money in a system as yours I would feel differently, but I also realize that it all comes to down to preferences. I respect that.

Do you find the LP you digitized sound the same, better or worse than what you can stream?

Originally Posted by Kingrex

Do you find the LP you digitized sound the same, better or worse than what you can stream?

Technically speaking I am streaming the digital copy from my hard drive. To me, that streamed file sounds the same as the LP.

Now, if your question is whether streaming from a music service (Tidal, Qobuz, etc.) sound the same to the LP, the answer is no. They sound different. That does not mean better or worse, just different. On the digitized analog, for example, you hear the needle on the record, the clicks, the surface noise. On the streamed file, on the other hand, there is a totally black background and you can hear the hiss from the master tape. They just sound different.