Thread: Don’t real audiophiles own their own media?

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

I compare my digital and my analog. Admittedly, my gear is not at the level of many others, however the best I can do is what I have to use in comparison. Setting up a turntable is not that hard, but I also assume that many of the tables some of these folks have are much more involved 😁.

Setting up a perfect geometry cart and dialing in your analog rig for all parameters is much harder than many think. I used parallax mirrors and all kinds of setup tools and magnifying glass to setup my SME/V/Dynavector and then quite a few for my sons and a few friends. It is tedious but it pays off. Not one will sound identical to each other no matter what though. So we are starting the comparison with faulty assumptions already.

I suppose streaming can be compromised somewhat although I have not heard it myself and I am not one of those "Ethernet Cables makes a difference" audiophiles... I use quality cables such as Transparent, Wireworld, Cardas, Kimber and a few others but I am not claiming to hear a difference between them. They are just quality for peace of mind. Quality USB cable does not have to cost in the four digits IMHO.... But digital is a lot less fussy than any analog rig be it vinyl or tape. They all need constant maintenance and they wear and tear as does the media. Not so with digital

Originally Posted by 2fastdriving

No, I think he's right. Vinyl can beat streaming fairly regularly, depending on the master. I rarely, if ever, hear anything streaming beat vinyl. Not saying it isn't possible, but definitely unlikely.

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Define "beats" streaming please.. What parameter are you using. Is there a gauge to measure the accuracy of sound? Your ears? Are they musically trained and pitch perfect? Do you play a musical instrument?

I can understand and would agree with "different" presentation. Sure, I like that round, analog bass myself from vinyl. It does not mean it is more accurate, it is just more pleasing to the ear. But then the different cartridges present the BASS quite differently? Is that not so? So what are we exactly comparing here? One has to go through the whole chain of events with analog starting from the cartridge and winding up at the speaker and one must take all kinds of D to A conversion and filters in DACs as well. So what is exactly accurate?

What is exactly beats the other then? A different presentation? You prefer that presentation? Sure, I agree. It is a personal preference but not necessarily accurate or somehow better. Just more pleasing to your own ears.

Originally Posted by dminches

Not so with digital? Do you use Roon? The sound quality of Roon has degraded over the years. Every time they update the software it sounds different. How do you deal with that? What about when Windows updates and causes a sound change? I think you are severely underestimating the complexity of digital music playback.

I did not say streaming was not subject to flaws. But not nearly as the difference of even a same cartridge with a different VTF and VTA... I use Qobuz windows APP and I can appreciate a slight difference in sound between Roon and Qobuz APP feeding my desktop DAC. So what? It's not the end of the world. Who or how can determine which is right and which is wrong? What about MQA, that sure sounds different to me and I do not like it... But others do. We all hear significantly different it turns out. Physiology wise. Even different ethnic groups exhibit strong preferences to one sound vs the other due to physiological differences and the way the sound is processed based on anatomy of such things as the skull itself...

I am not even sure of what the point of this thread is. It started out on a silly premise that an audiophile needs to hoard music to be an audiophile and it is continuing to exhibit strong objective preferences of the listener. Some like tubes, some like solid state. Some like vinyl, some like digital. Listen to what brings you more pleasure.

To summarize, I like to explore music and I listen a whole hell of a lot! It doesn't cost me to experiment unlike the old days where I would buy CD, SACD and vinyl only to figure out I do not enjoy the album as much as I thought I would.... Don't have that problem with streaming. It is all you can eat buffet and no one blames you for spitting it out if you don't like it...

Originally Posted by dminches

You said digital does not need maintenance like analog does and I pointed out that I disagree. This has nothing to do with flaws. Everything has flaws.

I also don’t think that owning my own music is “hoarding.”

This is getting downright silly now. What maintenance does digital need? The maintenance that FPGA DAC may have an update? That Roon may tweak some algorithms? That your cartridge and your favorite album are moving in the direction of the dumpster with each time you spin it? All of those statements are true...

Originally Posted by dminches

Significant maintenance. Go over to the Roon forums and see how many people are upset with the degregation of sound quality of Roon. If you don't use Roon you wouldn't know this. Check out how much work Taiko has done to compensate for Roon issues. This is not a minor thing.

I have been using Roon for over 2 years and each update or almost every time there is an update, something may change. Sound wise, it is not significant enough to say OMG what have they done? I could care less how many are upset with some imagined degradation. I compare Roon to Qobuz every few weeks out of curiosity and while there are times the presentation diverges slightly, it is nothing to panic over. Hysteria is rampant these days in all kinds of matters. I think it may be fashionable to complain these days..

Roon forum on Facebook has as many opinions as there are members of the forum, which is to say a whole bunch. I don't have time to listen to complaints, I listen to music.

So does anyone want to quantify and place an actual number on the amount of physical media that should somehow rank the status of an audiophile? Otherwise this whole thread is pointless.

I am very selective in the performers I add to my Roon folders. It would be too easy to have a mess instead of a way to navigate your favorites. As much as I try to be conservative, between all the genres of music I like to listen to: So far I have 64,957 tracks, 2055 artists and 4993 albums in Roon between Tidal and Qobuz. There are all the artists I have been listening to all my audiophile life plus perhaps 35% more I have discovered since Roon. That is way more than the amount of CDs, SACD and vinyl I have ever owned. Now I can easily add another 5,000 or 50,000 artists on top... It won't cost me a dime more but I would be completely lost in that library with no logical way to navigate or chose who to listen to.

How about you? What is your physical media collection like?

Originally Posted by 2fastdriving

Not different. Better. Better in nearly every category we use.

I know you won't agree, and that's fine. We can just agree to disagree.

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Ok, sure we can disagree. Not like I never owned a nice table/arm/cart or have not heard $100k plus rigs in my life... It's fine. Do what turns you on and listen to what brings you pleasure. That is the whole point of being an audiophile, not how you get there and with which gear that can never be measured up for accuracy to the moment the music happened in a studio or a live concert hall far, far away, to begin with.

Originally Posted by tino27

Digital does go bad. Physical discs degrade over time. Hard / Solid state drives degrade and lose information over time. They also fail completely. That's what the MTBF number means ... Mean Time Between Failures.

With good backup procedures, of course, this can be severely minimized. But how many people keep three copies of their digital files (usually the minimum recommended), with one of those copies being off-site in case of disaster (fire, flood, etc.)? How many people even keep one backup copy?

It's called cloud based backup. Yeah, it is a thing these days... LOL

Originally Posted by dminches

Not so with digital? Do you use Roon? The sound quality of Roon has degraded over the years. Every time they update the software it sounds different. How do you deal with that? What about when Windows updates and causes a sound change? I think you are severely underestimating the complexity of digital music playback.

I have been a Roon user for several years. Gone through several updates both with Roon and Windows. Never noticed any degradation in the sound. But I welcome any objective information that you can share to validate your experience.

Originally Posted by tino27

Digital does go bad. Physical discs degrade over time. Hard / Solid state drives degrade and lose information over time. They also fail completely. That's what the MTBF number means ... Mean Time Between Failures.

With good backup procedures, of course, this can be severely minimized. But how many people keep three copies of their digital files (usually the minimum recommended), with one of those copies being off-site in case of disaster (fire, flood, etc.)? How many people even keep one backup copy?

Agree. Another good reason for choosing streaming because the user avoids dealing with discs degradation, multiple backups, etc.

So now I have learned that $30k+ is a necessary expenditure on streaming? Fantastic!

I listen to a lot of music recorded in the 50s and 60s, some in the 70s. The limitations of those recordings are obvious but still very musically satisfying. It is Jazz after all and it is awesome! Now, when I purchase native high resolution recordings from places like Sound Liaison, DXD 352.8 captured with a high quality mic, minimal processing and as true to the source as possible, I also appreciate the huge difference there. So what? Music is unique and can be enjoyed over a transistor radio in the garage as well....

I like the high resolution and I enjoy the talent recorded on them but I love Jazz from the late 50s and 60s just as much with the lower quality and the captured recording quality masters back in those days which obviously pales by comparison... So do I need a $30k plus solution to streaming? Heck no... I'm perfectly fine with my current Bryston streamer. It sounds as good as the CD in the belly of my Luxman SACD player so mission accomplished.

But that is a highly personal decision and I certainly understand the desire to spend that kind of a coin on streaming to listen to favorite music. I guess... The audio hobby sure is fun if not crazy...

Being an audiophile isn’t just about the music. It’s also about the equipment, the contrast and comparison of the media, etc. Audiophile standards may be applied at all stages of music reproduction; the initial audio recording, the production process and the playback. How can someone who owns no media compare and contrast the very best “music” available? IMO, they simply can’t!

This thread is getting very stale. The OP assumes that a streaming audiophile was born yesterday and has not experienced any physical media to compare. I personally have been into high end audio since the 80's but was spinning vinyl on my parent's turntable when I was 6 years old in the early 70's. Still love all the wonderful singers from the 50s and 60s that I literally grew up listening to on the radio and vinyl records that my father collected.

Perhaps an even more interesting question is Why Musicians Ignore High End Audio? Why musicians ignore high end audio | PS Audio

Originally Posted by CPP

I kinda disagree, in sorts, without well recorded music, I don't care what kind of system you have its not going to sound its best with poor recorded music.,, It's a combination of it all, the music, the equipment, the room. But there are those times a person just wants to listen to music , period, not for the utmost "quality" but for the enjoyment of just listening to music.

I agree - GIGO = Garbage In, Garbage Out. Everything in our system matters - including our media.

When I want to listen I desire the best tracks available. But I won't know what these are unless I compare the media. To me this - the comparing and contrasting - is all part of being an audiophile.

Originally Posted by Calvin

I agree - GIGO = Garbage In, Garbage Out. Everything in our system matters - including our media.

When I want to listen I desire the best tracks available. But I won't know what these are unless I compare the media. To me this - the comparing and contrasting - is all part of being an audiophile.

most people out there will think of that as obsessive compulsive behavior. Normal for audiophile...?

See my post about why musicians ignore high end audio.

Can’t say that seeking out the best recording of the dozens and dozens of albums I listen to during a typical week would be of any interest to me. I’ve done that the first decade or two of being an audiophile. Now I listen to actual music instead of chasing good sound.

If you own a few hundred albums, yes, focus on sound and listen to it over and over. Buy a new cable, listen another dozen times. Buy a new dac and listen again. That’s the audiophile. Gear and good sound...

Originally Posted by CPP

Why Musicians Ignore High End Audio, I know odd, 'MAYBE A thread of its own, but If I played music for a living and was on tour, year in and year out, I most likely would rather go fishing or just get out to a quiet place instead of sitting around listening to more music.

I suggest you watch some documentaries like the Jazz Loft for example. It will give you a new perspective on what talented musicians did/do with their time and what they consider important in music. Music is not about the sound itself. Only an audiophile treats music as a sound...

Originally Posted by CPP

Not even sure what you are talking about.

I didn't think an audiophile would... Not to sound offensive. When Thelonious Monk would spend days without sleep composing music on the piano up at the Loft on 6th ave in the flower district of NYC, surrounded by other legends such as Charles Mingus, Zoot Sims, Bill Evans and a dozen other Jazz players just jamming together, it was never about "sound". It was about music and music they played. Through the billowing cigarette smoke, the booze and the drugs that was the vice of many of the legends... Most of them burned the candle on both ends and poured their heart, soul and their health into music...

Thelonious would spin beat up and scratched records on the cheapest record player imaginable for inspiration and to help him compose as the dozen of other legends would play their saxophones and jam on the guitars. The building was alive with music, not sound... Musicians do not treat music as sound. Not one of those musicians ever worried about the acoustics or anything else related to sound quality. They just jammed together and performed together in clubs and other venues... The recording engineers worried about sound when recording. Then there is the audiophile... Only a DAC costing as much as a luxury automobile can ever do justice to recordings captured on tape in the late 50s and 60s?

Originally Posted by CPP

Well you are.

And he loved to play Yahtzee, a board game with dice. He and Nellie (his wife) would play for hours on end. And he played ping pong, but he was even better at pool. He was crazy about the television show “Laurel and Hardy. Which only proves the man just didn't live and breath music all the time.

And this thread is so off topic.

Yes, nice copy and paste from JazzBlog 10 things you didn't know about Thelonious... I still recommend the various Jazz documentaries. Plenty on youtube and Amazon Prime. Great visuals on the life of the legendary Jazz musicians of the turbulent era and their struggle to fit their music into society that was not ready to accept it. Many moved overseas where they were welcomed as musicians.

Originally Posted by CPP

Put it this way., I like music, that's it I'm done.

I'm done with this thread too. Sometimes you just step into something you wish you haven't...

[Originally Posted by Calvin

Being an audiophile isn’t just about the music. It’s also about the equipment, the contrast and comparison of the media, etc. Audiophile standards may be applied at all stages of music reproduction; the initial audio recording, the production process and the playback. How can someone who owns no media compare and contrast the very best “music” available? IMO, they simply can’t!



kinda disagree, in sorts, without well recorded music, I don't care what kind of system you have its not going to sound its best with poor recorded music.,, It's a combination of it all, the music, the equipment, the room. But there are those times a person just wants to listen to music , period, not for the utmost "quality" but for the enjoyment of just listening to music.[/QUOTE]

Now this is a thread into its own. It made me pause to consider. Am I, or am I not an audiophile. Is it about evaluation of gear and source media, or the music. Because, what happens when I build a system over the years and I feel I have hit the top. I'm done. Now I just play music and love it. Am I no longer an audiophile? Do I have to sit and critically listen to a 45rpm vinyl, then stream a bad version to remind myself one is actually better than the other. Or can I just relax and appreciate the art created by a musician. If I only enjoy the art, and not the process of mastering, mixing, pressing etc, do I loose my hat?

Originally Posted by Kingrex

Now this is a thread into its own. It made me pause to consider. Am I, or am I not an audiophile. Is it about evaluation of gear and source media, or the music. Because, what happens when I build a system over the years and I feel I have hit the top. I'm done. Now I just play music and love it. Am I no longer an audiophile? Do I have to sit and critically listen to a 45rpm vinyl, then stream a bad version to remind myself one is actually better than the other. Or can I just relax and appreciate the art created by a musician. If I only enjoy the art, and not the process of mastering, mixing, pressing etc, do I loose my hat?

No, you haven't lost your hat, you're just a satisfied audiophile. And that is where all of us should be headed - our end game system that satisfies our listening desires.

However, it does seem to me that many have not been down a similar road as you - and many others. From much of what I read above, the word "audiophile" has seemed to change meanings. If being an audiophile only means one who enjoys music, then anyone owning an iPhone and streaming from Amazon is an audiophile. But anyone in the hobby knows there's more to it than that.

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

On most other forums, they would describe it as Listening to the Music VS Listening to the Gear.

So we should really be coining a new term altogether as Gearophile because plenty of music lovers listen in many ways.

Yes, some listen to music to hear their gear and others listen to their gear to hear their music. At the beginning of an audiophile's journey there has to be a delicate balance of the two IMO. To design the proper system we each need to live in both worlds for a time. After it's designed, then most will primarily listen to their music.