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  1. #1
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    Dealer Integrity

    Hi, if say, you was at a hifi store looking seriously to purchase, let's say speakers, you really liked them and was committed to the sale, and the dealer knew there was a new pair mk2, of this speaker coming out in 6 months, which will supersede the pair you are looking at buying, should he inform you of that ?, or should he carry one with the sale, knowing in 6 months time your purchase,would be worth 50% of what you paid, or explain what the deal is, and let you make up your own mind, maybe wait, or carry on and buy the pair you have your eye on, this could be in the thousands ££, but this thread is about integrity and not the cost,

  2. #2
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    Re: Dealer Integrity

    I always do - if I know.


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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, Esoteric, Estelon Loudspeakers, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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  3. #3
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    Re: Dealer Integrity

    That is an interesting question. I am not sue if there is a simple answer. For instance he may know that a "MK II" is coming within 6 months but he may not be at liberty to tell anyone.

    In your example the current model "may" be devalued by 50% off of the last MSRP but the newer model may have a somewhat high price too. The devaluation of your purchase would only come into play were you to decide to sell it and move up or on to something else. The SQ and value to you should not have changed.

    I guess most of us would hope our dealer would give us a heads up but this might not be possible in all situation.

    Good question.
    Jim

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  4. #4
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    Re: Dealer Integrity

    hi, i understand what you are saying, but a dealer must know when the mk2 shipment is coming, they won't just pull up in a van full of new gear, also the brand would, i guess, want you to sell off most of the old stock, before the new arrives, but MIKE most dealers are not like you letting people see you and your dealership warts an all, having your own site, for customers , forum guys, and friends, well done,

  5. #5
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    Re: Dealer Integrity

    Quote Originally Posted by greystoke4 View Post
    hi, i understand what you are saying, but a dealer must know when the mk2 shipment is coming, they won't just pull up in a van full of new gear, also the brand would, i guess, want you to sell off most of the old stock, before the new arrives,
    Don’t be so sure. We usually don’t know before the press does.


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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, Esoteric, Estelon Loudspeakers, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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  6. #6

    Re: Dealer Integrity

    I had this happen with a dealer once. The MKII were announced before I even received my speakers. Dealer claimed that he doesn't know about new models until they are announced. I told him I didn't believe him - at the very least I'm sure existing stock was at a substantial discount - he knew one way or another. I refused to take delivery unless he adjusted price and would give me a fair deal to upgrade to MKII if desired (I didn't ultimately upgrade as I loved the speakers). He refused to work with me going forward which was fine by me.

    Biggest lesson for me was don't buy anything that's been on the market a while from Jan 1 to the Munich show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Don’t be so sure. We usually don’t know before the press does.
    That's such a horrible business model from the manufacturer. Not only does it piss off clients (and make them not want to buy future products from them) but puts dealers in a tough spot. There's no excuse for it - I know new models of TVs, for example, months before they are available so I can make an informed choice.

  7. #7
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    Dealer Integrity

    Quote Originally Posted by Bar81 View Post
    I had this happen with a dealer once. The MKII were announced before I even received my speakers. Dealer claimed that he doesn't know about new models until they are announced. I told him I didn't believe him - at the very least I'm sure existing stock was at a substantial discount - he knew one way or another. I refused to take delivery unless he adjusted price and would give me a fair deal to upgrade to MKII if desired (I didn't ultimately upgrade as I loved the speakers). He refused to work with me going forward which was fine by me.

    Biggest lesson for me was don't buy anything that's been on the market a while from Jan 1 to the Munich show.



    That's such a horrible business model from the manufacturer. Not only does it piss off clients (and make them not want to buy future products from them) but puts dealers in a tough spot. There's no excuse for it - I know new models of TVs, for example, months before they are available so I can make an informed choice.
    They don’t tell dealers because word will get out and sales will stop. They want to clear out the older models to make room for the newer ones. If your dealer said he didn’t know, I would believe it.

    The constant upgrades is how manufacturers can stay ahead of Audiogon or the used market in general, which has killed more products than you can imagine.

    It’s no different than the car manufacturers who tweak things every year. Designs are every 5 years, but new tweaks are annual.


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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

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  8. #8

    Re: Dealer Integrity

    Thanks for confirming that and the rationale. It's still tough if you're the customer who gets caught out. Not looking to sour any relationships going forward so will stick to my Munich rule - it avoids the problem almost entirely.

  9. #9
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    Dealer Integrity

    Quote Originally Posted by Bar81 View Post
    Thanks for confirming that and the rationale. It's still tough if you're the customer who gets caught out. Not looking to sour any relationships going forward so will stick to my Munich rule - it avoids the problem almost entirely.
    Psst...we are their customers too. I felt the same way when I bought a specific amp for the store and then it was immediately discontinued.


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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, Esoteric, Estelon Loudspeakers, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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  10. #10
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    Re: Dealer Integrity

    dont buy a product new when its over two years on the market. (roughly)
    you start to get good deals 2nd hand and mk2 is surely coming in a year or two.

    great topic btw
    samsung soundbar & subs

  11. #11
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    Dealer Integrity

    Quote Originally Posted by u-sound View Post
    dont buy a product new when its over two years on the market. (roughly)
    you start to get good deals 2nd hand and mk2 is surely coming in a year or two.

    great topic btw
    That’s an interesting rule. But many brands take forever to come out with a replacement. Revel comes to mind. MBL too. I like the product lifecycle off Pass. Not too long, not too short. Dealer Integrity


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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, Esoteric, Estelon Loudspeakers, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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  12. #12
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    Re: Dealer Integrity

    While we all want new, then comes if you keep waiting other items are now old, and your back on the merry go round.

    I look at from the mindset, at some point you have to get laid.






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  13. #13
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    Re: Dealer Integrity

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraFast69 View Post

    at some point you have to get laid.
    lol, yes.
    what you buy is lost (my own saying)

    as for electro gear.....i always buy new at market entry. always unheard. only if i can get a topdeal. cash&carry without service.
    that is not the best way but its mine after 3 or 4 years i sell it with a big loss.
    samsung soundbar & subs

  14. #14

    Re: Dealer Integrity

    Anybody that buys new audio gear and is worried about how fast it loses value is in the wrong hobby. You aren’t investing money, you are spending your money on depreciating assets. It’s no different than buying a new car.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

  15. #15
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    Re: Dealer Integrity

    well you cant ignore the fact of loosing. i think its necessery to get clear with that prior to purchase
    samsung soundbar & subs

  16. #16

    Re: Dealer Integrity

    Quote Originally Posted by u-sound View Post
    well you cant ignore the fact of loosing. i think its necessery to get clear with that prior to purchase
    You also can’t ignore the fact that you are purchasing depreciating assets.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

  17. #17
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    Re: Dealer Integrity

    yes, we are saying the same thing with other worlds

    i take it always as if i would buy a hamburger and put the value straight to zero
    samsung soundbar & subs

  18. #18
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    Re: Dealer Integrity

    From a manufacturer’s viewpoint in a different market...we never released info on new products to our sales people or the dealer channel before we had carefully managed inventory and had enough new stock on hand to make the transition seamless. On one hand our sales people and dealer network would always dog us about the fact we hadn’t introduced any new products in two years and then would complain when we did announce and dealers had old stock. There is no right answer here except to enjoy what you have purchased.

    More power to manufacturers who think about upgrading the field and have easy solutions for those wanting the latest and greatest.
    Tom

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  19. #19

    Dealer Integrity

    I think the game is more fun when having been at it for a while. At the beginning, when starting to build your system, the changes are more frequent, and the money just flies out of the window.

    But when reaching a certain level, the changes become less frequent or at least focused on one part of the system at a time. With increasing experience there is also less need to try out everything new, as you already have experienced a bit.

    My feeling is dealers are just in the middle of it, trying to balance their stock as well as they can.


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  20. #20

    Dealer Integrity

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuoppis View Post
    I think the game is more fun when having been at it for a while. At the beginning, when starting to build your system, the changes are more frequent, and the money just flies out of the window.

    But when reaching a certain level, the changes become less frequent or at least focused on one part of the system at a time. With increasing experience there is also less need to try out everything new, as you already have experienced a bit.

    My feeling is dealers are just in the middle of it, trying to balance their stock as well as they can.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    The bottom line is you have to have gone through the pain to learn how to minimize it down the road. LOL

    I agree there’s no right or wrong answer. We do need to keep in mind that both dealers and manufacturers are doing business, not charity work. It is still your decision to NOT buy it. After all, the things we are buying in this hobby are not out of necessity.

  21. #21
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    Re: Dealer Integrity

    Quote Originally Posted by greystoke4 View Post
    Hi, if say, you was at a hifi store looking seriously to purchase, let's say speakers, you really liked them and was committed to the sale, and the dealer knew there was a new pair mk2, of this speaker coming out in 6 months, which will supersede the pair you are looking at buying, should he inform you of that ?, or should he carry one with the sale, knowing in 6 months time your purchase,would be worth 50% of what you paid, or explain what the deal is, and let you make up your own mind, maybe wait, or carry on and buy the pair you have your eye on, this could be in the thousands ££, but this thread is about integrity and not the cost,
    How is it that both you and the dealer know about a Mk II at the same time but it didn't come up in conversation? did you assume the dealer knew about a Mk II but was refraining from telling you (?) because he was more interested in off'g his soon to be obsolete stock? I'm trying to figure out if this is about mind reading or your wanting to paint your dealer as a disingenuous person.
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  22. #22
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    Re: Dealer Integrity

    hi, it's just a hypothetical question, about dealership integrity,

  23. #23
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    Re: Dealer Integrity

    Even if it wasn't a hypothetical six months into the future is far to long for a dealer to have to sit on current inventory just to save a buyer a few dollars some time in the future. This subject was beat to death a few years ago over the Magico Mk II speaker updates.
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  24. #24

    Re: Dealer Integrity

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Even if it wasn't a hypothetical six months into the future is far to long for a dealer to have to sit on current inventory just to save a buyer a few dollars some time in the future. This subject was beat to death a few years ago over the Magico Mk II speaker updates.
    The Magico Mk II discussion was about the length of manufacturer release cycles between models, not dealer integrity.


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  25. #25
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    Re: Dealer Integrity

    I have 2 dealers I have worked with pretty exclusively over the past few years and both have given me insight on occasion when a new model is coming out, and also when prices are scheduled to go up or down in the coming weeks. I also realize there are times when they just don't know and like Mike said, they only know as much as the distributors are willing to tell them. But yes I would be surprised and bring it up with the dealer if I spent a lot of money on something and discovered within a month or so that the model had a price dip or was updated/discontinued, etc.
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  26. #26
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    Re: Dealer Integrity

    Quote Originally Posted by greystoke4 View Post
    Hi, if say, you was at a hifi store looking seriously to purchase, let's say speakers, you really liked them and was committed to the sale, and the dealer knew there was a new pair mk2, of this speaker coming out in 6 months, which will supersede the pair you are looking at buying, should he inform you of that ?, or should he carry one with the sale, knowing in 6 months time your purchase,would be worth 50% of what you paid, or explain what the deal is, and let you make up your own mind, maybe wait, or carry on and buy the pair you have your eye on, this could be in the thousands ££, but this thread is about integrity and not the cost,
    well, good dealer integrity would be at play if the offer of taking your speakers back in on trade against the mkII version with full allowance of what you paid for them perhaps ?

    Regardless, you liked the speakers correct ? many a 'mkII' product is more about marketing than an audible improvement.
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  27. #27

    Re: Dealer Integrity

    None of this has anything to do with Dealer integrity... if you want to buy something then buy it. If you don't then move on or simply keep waiting for who knows what.

  28. #28
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    Re: Dealer Integrity

    I always make the attempt to build a strong rapport with a dealer, which in turns builds trust and that in turn brings integrity. I've made some wonderful friends that way.
    Chris

    (2 Chl): Pass xa30.5, W4S STP-SE Lumin D1, VPI Classic 1, Manley Chinook, Dynavector DV20x2L.exaSound e32 mk11, Marantz SA11S2. ( computer) Win7, Synology DS413 NAS ,Vincent SP-331MKII , Quicksilver LS,Vapor Audio Breeze, Rythmik F12se. Cables: Acoustic Zen, DL Labs, Blue Jean.. ,Bryston BCD-1,, OPPO 105, Timbernation Rack, Metrum Onyx, Orchid DAC, WooWA6SE

  29. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
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    saṃsāra
    Posts
    683

    Re: Dealer Integrity

    if you know something, say something ...that would seem to be a good default general rule for all parties.
    kanjiroba yak + roon rock > t+a dac8 dsd > almarro a318b > viking acoustics berlin r mk2 | alp-tone audio analog cables
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Dealer Integrity

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