Thread: DAC Comparison not going well …

So … I’ve been comparing some new DAC’s lately and it’s just not going very well. I have an Esoteric D-02X that I have used mostly with a P-02X transport and Aurender W20SE which sounds really good. So far I’ve compared it to a DCS Rossini Apex, MSB Reference, and the new Esoteric N-01XD. Even had a G-05 clock in the system. Don’t get me wrong … there are pluses and minuses for each of the dacs and the Esoteric Clock really elevates the performance of my D-02X for not a lot of money. So what’s been going so wrong? Well .. after listening to the digital front ends … I sit down, relax and play a tape on my Sonorus R2R and ALL of the DACs sound totally broken! Like, don’t even bother! I guess if everything I liked were available on tape I probably wouldn’t. I’m struggling to find a digital front end that I can sit back, relax and enjoy unless I don’t play my R2R for a while.

I’ve not listened to the new D1XSE’s yet so they are a consideration but I’ve just not found a DAC that has the overall clarity and openness of tape. Maybe I won’t. Not sure how this journey will end but I’m in no hurry so for now I’m going to sit back and wait on the next bunch of tapes to come in and listen to those and enjoy the music!

Cheers

George

Hi George,

Can you share your observations thus far? What’s good and not so good with each DAC?

Hang in there. You’ll know which one to get when you are able to just sit back, relax and enjoy the music.

With the number of fine DAC's you have auditioned yet found all lacking it is unlikely you will ever find one that meets your standards. If your standards are tape and all other medium sound broken, the catalog of music available to you is far less than 1%. Even if it sounds like the are playing right in my room that is far to limiting for me.

George, if you find a DAC that beats your R2R, let me know. I’ll buy it tomorrow.

I will say this, the Select II with Digital Direct and Taiko running XDMS gets me the closest to my Studer’s.

I think the key George, is to enjoy digital for what it is: the world’s biggest buffet. It might not be 3 star Michelin dining, but there is a massive variety of music to enjoy, so it’s just that, enjoy it for what it is.

I’m no different. My Studer’s smokes any digital. Then I go to my customers in Ohio and hear his 1/2 inch tapes and it’s like another step above yet again. You’re sitting there listening to “Wish you were here” or “The Doors” or whatever and you’re just in awe.

Why is this? I’ve gone over this numerous times and until people see it in action (at the studios) like I have, it won’t hit home. The studios are using junk A2D converters and massive amounts of compression. When you have a direct tape to tape transfer, it’s like going from standard definition TV on an old set from the 80’s to a 200 inch 8K display today. What some of these studios do is akin to the guy recording the latest 200 inch 8K display at CES on his iPhone 4 and then playing it back on his Betamax on his 14 inch Hitachi from the 80’s.

Of course, you have the naysayers, “but the tapes are like $400…”. Yeah, you won’t be Willy Nilly buying every tape that comes out. But you will have a selection that is unrivaled by any other source to date.

But as you know, tape is a labor of love. I’ve talked many customers out of it, you know the ones who say “vinyl is such a hassle!” For those folks, I tell them tape is another level entirely of care and feeding, stick to digital.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Originally Posted by Ritmo

Hi George,

Can you share your observations thus far? What’s good and not so good with each DAC?

Hang in there. You’ll know which one to get when you are able to just sit back, relax and enjoy the music.

So each of the DACs has pro’s and con’s for sure but I think the common thing that I’m missing out of all of them compared to the R2R is the stunning level of clarity without any brightness the tape provides and a stunning soundstage with the tape (left to right and front to back) that the DAC’s just can’t match. The tape also provides for much better layering of the soundstage .. its like it becomes totally obvious to anyone that listens and its not as subtle as it is with the digital front ends. the best way I can sum it up as the digital definitely sounds like a copy of a recording and the tapes sound more like an actual performance. I agree with Mike’s statements that the digital isn’t going to match the tape for a variety of reasons and I’m going to have to accept that … just will try and find one that checks the most boxes for me. I find it quite interesting that until last year I had never even heard a good R2R machine in a high end system then heard one of these with Dire Straits On Every Street and was like … I’ve never heard anything sound that good.

I have quite a few tapes on order right now and can’t wait to get them. Was playing The Wall and Dark Side of the Moon last night on R2R and I was completely unaware of the time until I looked up and realized it was 4am. :-) I guess most of all that’s really what I’m looking for … to get totally absorbed into the music! Can’t wait to get my new Pre and Amps in likely in April/May time frame. Should take it to another level then I’ll get more serious about demo’ing DACs again.

Cheers everyone and thanks for the support!

George

Sounds like you've tried some nice DAC's.

Have you thought of trying a different streamer?

Originally Posted by Mike

I’m no different. My Studer’s smokes any digital. Then I go to my customers in Ohio and hear his 1/2 inch tapes and it’s like another step above yet again. You’re sitting there listening to “Wish you were here” or “The Doors” or whatever and you’re just in awe.

Why is this? I’ve gone over this numerous times and until people see it in action (at the studios) like I have, it won’t hit home. The studios are using junk A2D converters and massive amounts of compression. When you have a direct tape to tape transfer, it’s like going from standard definition TV on an old set from the 80’s to a 200 inch 8K display today. What some of these studios do is akin to the guy recording the latest 200 inch 8K display at CES on his iPhone 4 and then playing it back on his Betamax on his 14 inch Hitachi from the 80’s.

Of course, you have the naysayers, “but the tapes are like $400…”. Yeah, you won’t be Willy Nilly buying every tape that comes out. But you will have a selection that is unrivaled by any other source to date.

But as you know, tape is a labor of love. I’ve talked many customers out of it, you know the ones who say “vinyl is such a hassle!” For those folks, I tell them tape is another level entirely of care and feeding, stick to digital.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Mike, you are 100% correct. Unless you're dealing with a studio that strives for absolute sound quality, you're never going to get the quality of good tape with mainstream digital recordings. However, Paul McGowan of PS Audio and Octave Records claims that their DSD recordings are just as good as tape, but they also go those extra miles to have the best mics, cables and gear in their studio.

I for one do not mind the "hassle" of playing vinyl and tape. It's not really a hassle to me. But as far as tape is concerned, if the prices of reels were like $100 a pop, I would certainly be buying some here and there and being able to use my old Pioneer RT-1020L more often. I hate that it sits 99% of the time not being used at all. And if that were the case, then I'd be inclined to put the Rt-1020L under the knife and do some mods/upgrades to it to improve its performance even more.

This whole thread is how I feel, it's crazy !
Although I'm using analog and not R2R for that comparison, it is just exactly the same, and since I have the Clarisys audio speakers it is a lot more evidence!
The gaps are huge! I just told Floriannn a few weeks ago I'm really sad. I didn't have that "problem" so clearly emphasized.I am surely very invested in my analog rig, but my Digital is not sloth either. i feel exactly as you guys described, the Digital is like a mockup for the real music i am putting through LPs. so, I'm in a digital frenzy to get it up enough for me to enjoy it again as I used to.
I have some really amazing orders on the way, and I am very hopeful to get the same sansasual from my digital as from my analog... at least to have some very good sound to sit back and enjoy for the unlimited pool of music that we can listen to from it.
A.

Serious question, how does R2R transfer work? It would seem that if it was actual transfers they would be limited by the original tape degrading. And, if it was the original tape then nothing left to make a true transfer from.

An aquaintance does R2R and he told me things that has to be done that I wasn't aware of. I can't even fold paper straight, no way would I attempt playing tape, LOL I can't remember exactly the issue it seems he was telling me sometimes the tape has to be heated up. And, his tape don't even arrive already on the reells. Too much for me. Kudos to those who do it though and I'd love to have a listen. Years ago I did hear a "master tape" on a MBL system and it was the best I heard that album sound.

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

Sounds like you've tried some nice DAC's.

Have you thought of trying a different streamer?

So I have an Aurender W20SE and have compared that to the built in streaming in the Rossini Apex. The built in streaming in the Rossini Apex is better than the W20SE in my setup. That said I mostly play silver discs so that is how I’ve done most of my comparisons.

Also … so far the Rossini Apex is sounding better to me than my D-02X which is several years old at this point. Probably going to listen to a Vivaldi Apex setup next.

George

Originally Posted by gadawg

So I have an Aurender W20SE and have compared that to the built in streaming in the Rossini Apex. The built in streaming in the Rossini Apex is better than the W20SE in my setup. That said I mostly play silver discs so that is how I’ve done most of my comparisons.

Also … so far the Rossini Apex is sounding better to me than my D-02X which is several years old at this point. Probably going to listen to a Vivaldi Apex setup next.

George

i had the N10 a few years ago, actually Mike suggest it to me back than
it was fantastic! till i got my CH PRECISION C1.1 with the HD card so i sold it and im using the internal HD card with Roon Nucleus server.
(if i must be honest, i think the N10 was better... )
but i get it that in different systems something will work better than others and visa versa.

i am on the verge on getting my digital WAY (way!) up.... although i am very happy with the ch C1.2 i can imagine that there are a better road and a much better sounding to compete with our Analog.
will report when everything will be here and tested... i am very excited.

Originally Posted by gadawg

...I’ve not listened to the new D1XSE’s yet so they are a consideration..

It's a long stretch between that and everything else. Your reasoning is difficult to follow.

Was the 01sd broken in when you listened? I bought my N05xd new and it took a good while to break in and SQ changed quite a bit over that time.

You have the R2R as a reference so I'm following. However, to my taste dCS is the least analog sounding. I wish I had more time to listen to MSB, I did like their sound but with my limited time not convinced of how fast transients would be. After break in I am very happy with the N05xd in my system. Whenever I hear dCS they seem to lean analytical and rigid. They are popular though so we all have our taste. And, system synergy.

Originally Posted by brodricj

It's a long stretch between that and everything else. Your reasoning is difficult to follow.

Not sure what you mean? Yes the D1X SE is more expensive than most of the others I have listened to so far except for the MSB which is about the same price. When I bought my D-02X it was super close in performance to the then current D-1’s but I don’t know how much better the D1X’s are to be sure. I plan on listening to Vivaldi as well. Hopefully that helps clear things up?

George

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Was the 01sd broken in when you listened? I bought my N05xd new and it took a good while to break in and SQ changed quite a bit over that time.

You have the R2R as a reference so I'm following. However, to my taste dCS is the least analog sounding. I wish I had more time to listen to MSB, I did like their sound but with my limited time not convinced of how fast transients would be. After break in I am very happy with the N05xd in my system. Whenever I hear dCS they seem to lean analytical and rigid. They are popular though so we all have our taste. And, system synergy.

I think all of the DACs I’ve tried so far are pretty well broken in at this point. I really like some aspects of the new Esoteric but so far they don’t seem to have quite the sound stage size and depth that I’m used to but again the D-02X really excelled there to be sure. I’m thinking maybe the D-1X SE might be more up my ally.

With regards to the DCS Rossini Apex …. not analytical to me at all but I’m running it in an all tube setup so I’m sure that system synergy has something to do with it. Will be interested to compare the Vivaldi stack to D1X SE. That should be quite telling! The MSB sound in my system just doesn’t work. Seems to trade off some of the detail and pop for a smoother overall sound. Again in a different system I could imagine that being preferred .. just not in my setup.

George

Originally Posted by gadawg

... I’m thinking maybe the D-1X SE might be more up my ally.

I would not buy D1X-SE. I would buy N01XD-SE + G-05 and devote the money saved for other things.

Originally Posted by brodricj

I would not buy D1X-SE. I would buy N01XD-SE + G-05 and devote the money saved for other things.

I've auditioned the N01XD and was not overly impressed. Not sure how much better the SE will be ... Still preferred my D-02X to it for sure ... if I was going down that road I'd just keep my D-02X and add the G05 to it which I've tried and like the best of the Esoteric gear so far and that was close to the Rossini Apex but I still preferred the Apex. If the D1X SE sound stage isn't much larger than what I've already heard then for me I'll likely end up with a Vivaldi stack as I'm guessing it will greatly surpass the Rossini Apex.

I have in fact purchased the Rossini Apex and long term will use it with my headphone amp Feliks Audio Euphoria Evo but so far it sounds the best to me in my system so until I find something else I like better there it will stay. Again .. won't be doing much more auditioning until my VAC Statement system comes in sometime in April I'm guessing. What's next on the list right now is Vivaldi Apex, D1X SE, Wadax Atlantis DAC (not reference). All of those have matching transports so I can still play my SACD's which is important to me. Take care!

George

Originally Posted by gadawg

I've auditioned the N01XD and was not overly impressed. Not sure how much better the SE will be ...

I owned N-01 + G-02X and I thought it was excellent. I'm very impressed by current offerings of integrated amplifiers as an alternative to multi-box stacks. The Bladelius ASK is excellent. I'm sure Esoteric F-01 would also be excellent, although I don't think optional DAC is available for that. Any Esoteric spinner + F-01 I expect would be an excellent choice. I've got a hunch a new Grandioso level integrated will be announced this year.

Originally Posted by GSOphile

You've lived with your D-02X for a while and no doubt gotten it well adjusted to your ear and your system. I have a K-01XD (coming from a K-03X), and it's taken me a while to understand this unit and get it anchored into my system for my music. The DAC section of this unit is very similar to the N-01XD, and IMO it's new discrete component DAC technology is a big step up from the chip-based DACs in Esoteric's prior units. That said, the new filter and up conversion settings in the XD units can have a significant impact on what you hear - tone, detail, sound stage, etc. So I'm wondering if the N-01XD you heard really got a fair shake relative to DACs you've lived with. And if heard the same way with the same settings, like you, I'm wondering if a D1X or D1X SE's house sound will differ substantially.

A little history here might help ... before I bought the D-02X I had originally bought the K-03X then upgraded to the K-01X and never quite got happy with the size of the soundstage. However as I moved up the Esoteric line the soundstage became larger with more space and air. I noticed that more so than any change in timbre or tonal qualities as I moved up the line. In fact, it wasn't until I heard a D-02X that I was blown away with the sound. The D-02X design wise was closer to a single box D-1 than an upgraded K-01X or N-01 and it really checked all the boxes I was looking for at the time. That said ... even then I had heard a Vivaldi stack and while I liked it better wasn't in a position to spend that kind of money. So, I bought the D-02X and have been quite happy even when comparing that to my now sold-to-a-friend vinyl rig. It was after I bought my R2R that I decided that I wanted to upgrade my Digital front end as the R2R has created such a large gap that I was struggling to enjoy the digital front end. So, with that in mind I wanted to hear the new discrete DAC and I've had a chance to listen to a couple of models in my system at this point. They all have wonderful tonal qualities that I do like better than my current DAC but like before I am finding that as I listen to the progressively more expensive Esoteric DACs that the size and scope of the soundstage grows with it and is something super important to me personally. And yes this is personal preference and not an indicator of quality. So, since there isn't a D-02XD nor am I thinking one is coming, I am expecting that to get the sound I'm looking for I'll need to go all the way to the D1X SE if I stay in the Esoteric family of products. That said if I'm going to be at that price range then I will compare it to other comparable products from DCS and Wadax as well. I mentioned that I already bought the Rossini Apex and I did but its long term use will be my for my headphone setup.

As far as settings go .. the D-02X doesn't have the normal number of filters that could be changed as some of the other Esoteric dacs do so I can't say that its settings would be comparable but I can say that I did ensure all oversampling settings were consistent between models I compared. I also noticed that the newer models have different filter choices as you move up the line .. but for the most part I preferred the default settings and did most of my comparisons there.

What I am hoping to find is a DAC with the tonal qualities of the new Esoteric discrete dacs, the detail and layering that I'm hearing from the new Apex line of DCS DACs and a soundstage that blows out the walls of the room. I'll certainly update this thread once I hear some of the other DACs and its also possible that after I've swapped out my BAT Rex gear for the VAC Statement gear, my preferences may end up being totally different.

Cheers and thanks for going on the journey with me!

George

Just curious if you have listened to any of the top Lampizator DAC's?

Originally Posted by gadawg

A little history here might help ... before I bought the D-02X I had originally bought the K-03X then upgraded to the K-01X and never quite got happy with the size of the soundstage. However as I moved up the Esoteric line the soundstage became larger with more space and air. I noticed that more so than any change in timbre or tonal qualities as I moved up the line. In fact, it wasn't until I heard a D-02X that I was blown away with the sound. The D-02X design wise was closer to a single box D-1 than an upgraded K-01X or N-01 and it really checked all the boxes I was looking for at the time. That said ... even then I had heard a Vivaldi stack and while I liked it better wasn't in a position to spend that kind of money. So, I bought the D-02X and have been quite happy even when comparing that to my now sold-to-a-friend vinyl rig. It was after I bought my R2R that I decided that I wanted to upgrade my Digital front end as the R2R has created such a large gap that I was struggling to enjoy the digital front end. So, with that in mind I wanted to hear the new discrete DAC and I've had a chance to listen to a couple of models in my system at this point. They all have wonderful tonal qualities that I do like better than my current DAC but like before I am finding that as I listen to the progressively more expensive Esoteric DACs that the size and scope of the soundstage grows with it and is something super important to me personally. And yes this is personal preference and not an indicator of quality. So, since there isn't a D-02XD nor am I thinking one is coming, I am expecting that to get the sound I'm looking for I'll need to go all the way to the D1X SE if I stay in the Esoteric family of products. That said if I'm going to be at that price range then I will compare it to other comparable products from DCS and Wadax as well. I mentioned that I already bought the Rossini Apex and I did but its long term use will be my for my headphone setup.

As far as settings go .. the D-02X doesn't have the normal number of filters that could be changed as some of the other Esoteric dacs do so I can't say that its settings would be comparable but I can say that I did ensure all oversampling settings were consistent between models I compared. I also noticed that the newer models have different filter choices as you move up the line .. but for the most part I preferred the default settings and did most of my comparisons there.

What I am hoping to find is a DAC with the tonal qualities of the new Esoteric discrete dacs, the detail and layering that I'm hearing from the new Apex line of DCS DACs and a soundstage that blows out the walls of the room. I'll certainly update this thread once I hear some of the other DACs and its also possible that after I've swapped out my BAT Rex gear for the VAC Statement gear, my preferences may end up being totally different.

Cheers and thanks for going on the journey with me!

George

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Just curious if you have listened to any of the top Lampizator DAC's?

No sir not yet ... I know someone who has a GG2 and I'll go take a listen to his system soon but I'm not aware of any dealers in my area that would facilitate an in home demo of a Horizon. Lack of a matching SACD transport doesn't help either at least for me.

George

Originally Posted by nicoff

The thing is that you are comparing apples and oranges. What you like about your tapes includes hiss, wow and flutter, and, potential limitations in frequency response (depending on recording speed and tape formulation). I posted above a YouTube video of a music producer that mixes tape and digital in his music recordings by capitalizing on the strengths of both media.
If you were to create a digital copy of a tape from your R2R, for example, 1) take any tape, 2) play it on your R2R, 3) digitize that output, and 4) use the digitized output with the DACs that you are testing, you will be more likely to get the tape sound that you are missing.

I agree that R2R and digital are apples and oranges ... well that's all I agree with .. LOL

Good news is we don't have to agree and all is well with the world .. Cheers!

George

Originally Posted by nicoff

The thing is that you are comparing apples and oranges. What you like about your tapes includes hiss, wow and flutter, and, potential limitations in frequency response (depending on recording speed and tape formulation). I posted above a YouTube video of a music producer that mixes tape and digital in his music recordings by capitalizing on the strengths of both media.
If you were to create a digital copy of a tape from your R2R, for example, 1) take any tape, 2) play it on your R2R, 3) digitize that output, and 4) use the digitized output with the DACs that you are testing, you will be more likely to get the tape sound that you are missing.

If you have good analog , Digital will always sound broken when you switch between the two, for those who has both , you do realize its best to have a digital only session and or an analog only session.

The best i have heard digital get to analog is when using a lampi tooby DAC ..


Regards

Originally Posted by gadawg

No sir not yet ... I know someone who has a GG2 and I'll go take a listen to his system soon but I'm not aware of any dealers in my area that would facilitate an in home demo of a Horizon. Lack of a matching SACD transport doesn't help either at least for me.

George

Take it for a listen , BTW the newer dacs are supposedly ahead of the GG2 even the entry level ones ..

Regards

It would be pretty cool to hear what digital does to the analog recording

If you are in the US, try to contact Fred Ainsley, the US distributor for Lampizator and see whether he can arrange a demo of the Horizon for you. fred.ainsley@gmail.com.

Larry

The new Lampi DAC's are an evolution from the past models, I still have a preference for the older design. Lampizator never had a steroetypical tube sound but the new DAC's I don't think anyone could tell had tubes if they didn't already know. That's not necessarily a bad thing I just enjoyed that touch of flesh and texture from the older model I was used to hearing. I get them mixed up, it was what used to be the flagship. Based on the amount of Lampi owners that moved to the Horizon I think I am a minority in my preference, LOL

With all that being said there is system differences and people love to roll tubes to consider. YMMV

The N-01XD + clock is insanely good. I don't see how anyone wouldn't be happy with that. How were you feeding the N-01XD? Ethernet? From the P-02x? USB?

I use optical ethernet to the EtherRegen, then out of that to the Ethernet input of the N-01XD. I clock both the N-01XD and the EtherRegen.

It's very hard to beat that IMHO. Running the P-02X into it should be better, it should be about as good as you'll get without spending 6 figures.

I have in the past , recorded digital to analog tape @15ips , best i have ever heard digital , sounded very analog , Body , tone and drive no electronic hardness typical of digital sound ...

Originally Posted by gadawg

..What I am hoping to find is a DAC with the tonal qualities of the new Esoteric discrete dacs, the detail and layering that I'm hearing from the new Apex line of DCS DACs and a soundstage that blows out the walls of the room.

I have a 7 box Grandioso stack and instead of that I'm listening to Bladelius ASK integrated with optional DAC module. The ASK has no definable weakness, other than it's a bit operationally flakey when driven by the Spotify iOS app. The Volumio app seems to be rock solid.

Originally Posted by 2fastdriving

The N-01XD + clock is insanely good. I don't see how anyone wouldn't be happy with that. How were you feeding the N-01XD? Ethernet? From the P-02x? USB?

I use optical ethernet to the EtherRegen, then out of that to the Ethernet input of the N-01XD. I clock both the N-01XD and the EtherRegen.

It's very hard to beat that IMHO. Running the P-02X into it should be better, it should be about as good as you'll get without spending 6 figures.

Feeding with P-02X. Don’t get me wrong the N-01XD is very good .. just not sure its “better to me” than the D-02X that I already have when that was clocked with G-05. I’m just trying to see how much better I can get. Hoping for a larger improvement which may be very expensive as you alluded to. Have a friend who is receiving the newer N-01XD SE soon so I’ll take a listen to that also.

George

Originally Posted by nicoff

I have actually digitized a few of my LPs as an experiment. I then used software to name each track and to eliminate the pops and clicks. Loved the results. Digital has never sounded more analog than that to me.
PS. BTW, in the YouTube video above, you can listen to the combined analog/digital sound.

I did a very major project digitizing the bulk of my record and tape collection beginning around 2010. After doing a big shootout of the available A to D devices, I ended up with a Pacific Microsonics Model Two, using Merging Technologies Pyramix Software and Izotope RX Advanced for pops and clicks. I digitized at 192/24, the highest resolution that the Model Two does. All together took me six years, more than 12,000 hours to do 10,000 records and 2500 tapes, about 40+TB. Played through a top quality DAC (in my case a Lampizator Horizon) the sound is very fine - in some cases because of the scratches removed.

Larry