Criticizing a friend's system

**AVphile** · September 4, 2021, 02:55 PM

Earlier this week, I was invited to a friend's home to listen to what he said were "significant upgrades" to his audio system. Indeed, he had made numerous changes, the more significant ones being the acquisitions of: McIntosh MC1.25kw mono amplifiers; Kimber Select interconnects; Sunlight software update to his PS Audio Directstream DAC; and ISO Acoustics RHEA isolation feet (for his Magnapan 3.7i speakers). Unchanged were his McIntosh C2600 preamplifer, Kimber Monocle-XL speaker cables, PS Audio P20 Power Plant, and REL S/812 subwoofers (pair). I forgot to ask about his power cables. Roon/Tidal supplied the source material.

As you can imagine, he is very proud of his system. I had prepared a play list of pieces which I knew well and believed would provide a comprehensive test of his system's capabilities and quality. Very regrettably, his "new baby" was not beautiful. Various terms that come to mind in describing it are bright, shrill, piercing, exaggerated treble, etc. Notwithstanding the clarity of the reproduction, it was nearly painful to listen, and I could not wait to depart. I tried to be diplomatic in my providing him with my critique for I did not want to hurt his feelings, and, otherwise that mentioning that the sound was a little bit more bright than I would prefer, I was generally complementary about such aspects as the deep bass, how impressive the system was (actually I meant in appearance), etc.

I confess I am perplexed. He obviously spent a fortune on his upgrades, he did purchase well-regarded products, and yet his system overall sounded much worse than before he started his recent upgrading. In considering his "upgraded" system overall, can anyone suggest where and how it went astray?

**2fastdriving** · September 4, 2021, 03:01 PM

There are so many variables, it's impossible to say. Could be that after making so many changes, he needs to tweak his speaker placement. I know that in my system, just being off a little bit can mean the difference between bright and not. Maybe break in. Maybe kimber isn't a good match. Maybe it was the source material. Maybe it was your mood or the weather or humidity messing with you. I've had that happen! In short, you should just visit him again later and see if you feel the same way.

Sent from my SM-N986U1 using Tapatalk

**mep** · September 4, 2021, 03:06 PM

Tidal being the source of the music you heard didn’t help.

**Mike** · September 4, 2021, 03:07 PM

Ask Joe about the 1.25kw’s. We both had the same reaction: run out of the room. Fast. Nasty thin and bright.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

**Jim Smith** · September 4, 2021, 04:38 PM

System to room optimization. It can ALWAYS help to correct for various missteps in equipment choices.

**rbbert** · September 4, 2021, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

Ask Joe about the 1.25kw’s. We both had the same reaction: run out of the room. Fast. Nasty thin and bright.

My local MacIntosh dealer, who also carries Magnepan, will not carry the 1.25's. Unsurprisingly, his favorites for the 20.7's are the 2152 and the 275.

**TheOctopus** · September 4, 2021, 05:58 PM

Various Magnepan speakers can also very easily sound thin, lean and bright in combination with improper setup, bad room acoustics and poor synergy. Some gear brings out the best of them, some gear does not. McIntosh amps are typically not lean sounding with most speakers but there were some instances where the combinations did sound less than satisfying to my ears with the bigger amps. I have owned 275, 501, 2275 and 2301 McIntosh amps and have heard most of them except the MC1.25KW at one point or another. Hard for me to believe the MC1.25Kw are that bad but anything is possible.

**a.wayne** · September 4, 2021, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by AVphile

Earlier this week, I was invited to a friend's home to listen to what he said were "significant upgrades" to his audio system. Indeed, he had made numerous changes, the more significant ones being the acquisitions of: McIntosh MC1.25kw mono amplifiers; Kimber Select interconnects; Sunlight software update to his PS Audio Directstream DAC; and ISO Acoustics RHEA isolation feet (for his Magnapan 3.7i speakers). Unchanged were his McIntosh C2600 preamplifer, Kimber Monocle-XL speaker cables, PS Audio P20 Power Plant, and REL S/812 subwoofers (pair). I forgot to ask about his power cables. Roon/Tidal supplied the source material.

As you can imagine, he is very proud of his system. I had prepared a play list of pieces which I knew well and believed would provide a comprehensive test of his system's capabilities and quality. Very regrettably, his "new baby" was not beautiful. Various terms that come to mind in describing it are bright, shrill, piercing, exaggerated treble, etc. Notwithstanding the clarity of the reproduction, it was nearly painful to listen, and I could not wait to depart. I tried to be diplomatic in my providing him with my critique for I did not want to hurt his feelings, and, otherwise that mentioning that the sound was a little bit more bright than I would prefer, I was generally complementary about such aspects as the deep bass, how impressive the system was (actually I meant in appearance), etc.

I confess I am perplexed. He obviously spent a fortune on his upgrades, he did purchase well-regarded products, and yet his system overall sounded much worse than before he started his recent upgrading. In considering his "upgraded" system overall, can anyone suggest where and how it went astray?

The Maggie 3.7i is more than a decent speaker, my 2cent ,

Throw away the McIntosh pre amp , they never ever made a good pre amp after the C22 , i would do that first before Condemning the Class B amp ..!

Regards

**a.wayne** · September 4, 2021, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by rbbert

My local MacIntosh dealer, who also carries Magnepan, will not carry the 1.25's. Unsurprisingly, his favorites for the 20.7's are the 2152 and the 275.

Serge would love them , his auditory memory resets( self admitting ) every 2 mins , no way to recall how thin class B can sound ...!

Apparently you gotta buy vintage MAC to hear what its all about ...!

**TheOctopus** · September 4, 2021, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Serge would love them , his auditory memory resets every 2 mins , no way to recall how thin class B can sound ...!

Don't twist things out of context you "cable sound" expert...

**stereogeek** · September 4, 2021, 07:08 PM

If he is very proud of his system isn't that what matters? Plus, all of that new stuff will probably settle down after break in. ( Break in is part equipment and part listener)

**AVphile** · September 4, 2021, 07:50 PM

Thank you, all for the time you have taken to respond to my inquiry. Since I have heard his previously-configured system, albeit probably a year ago, as well, I think that Mike may really have it pegged. My friend has had his new McIntosh MC1.25kw mono amps for six to nine months, and he plays music close to every day; by now they probably are as broken-in as they are going get. When looking at his purchases, those amps stick out far more as the source of the problem than new cables or software or isolating footers.

Those new amps replaced MC611s in his system. As I recall, this terrible brightness was not evident with those amps. In fact, then his system sounded fairly good overall.

I guess this is another lesson of bigger, newer, and more expensive does not necessarily result in better.

**audio.bill** · September 4, 2021, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

Ask Joe about the 1.25kw’s. We both had the same reaction: run out of the room. Fast. Nasty thin and bright.

My experience hearing a completely different system which had recently incorporated MC1.25kw amps was in agreement with Mike and Joe's, way too bright and glassy sounding. Couldn't make a graceful exit fast enough!

**Jack** · September 4, 2021, 09:09 PM

Am I confused or aren't you the same guy that's just now asking about which one of these two McIntosh amps (611 0r 1.25kw) to purchase for your own personal system on another forum. If that's the case why the story about a friends system? This advise request was made hours after you told us how bad you thought the 1.25's sounded.

**TheOctopus** · September 4, 2021, 10:08 PM

To my ears and over the decades of listening, a great amplifier has very little to add on its own, if it is up to the challenge of driving the speakers properly. A good amplifier will simply reveal a speaker's true character. It is only when an amplifier can't keep up with the transient demand of music and the resulting varying impedance load of the speaker, be it due to insufficient power reserves or capacitive storage, that is starts to add nastiness of its own, depending on its topology.... I seriously doubt there is anything wrong with the MC1.25KW. In this video the Focal Scala Utopia sounds exactly what I would imagine it would sound like with virtually any powerful amp. The speaker sounds brutally revealing and HiFi'ish and that is exactly how it sounded the few times I heard it. Nothing new here. If the recording is good, the result will be good and vice-versa.

Let's not forget that an amp would seriously have to measure differently on the bench and be non-linear to actually "sound" that much different on the same pair of speakers compared to other amps... Does the MC1.25KW measure differently? I have not looked at them or heard them.

Also, I don't need to point out that REVIEWS will also "sound" very different that what is being claimed in this thread. I quote from Soundstage Ultra...

Having recently reviewed Merrill Audio’s Element 118 monoblock amplifier ($36,000/pair), I expected to hear a tonal shift with the McIntosh MC1.25KWs, and I did. The Element 118 is an exceedingly neutral, transparent, and revealing amplifier; in many ways, it’s a reviewer’s dream amp. The McIntosh MC1.25KW’s sound was warmer, richer, smoother -- in short, not quite as tonally balanced. Nonetheless, I found the MC1.25KWs’ sound to be compellingly indulgent overall. But in stark contrast with the Element 118 -- an amplifier whose sound I find to be uncolored until I push it very hard -- it was clear that McIntosh has engineered the MC1.25KW to sound better than the MC1.2KW, yet maintain a degree or two of McIntosh’s traditional house sound.

Review link McIntosh Laboratory MC1.25KW Mono Amplifiers

**TheOctopus** · September 4, 2021, 10:24 PM

Well, one useful thing came out of this thread. A new album discovered which I am enjoying.. LOL

**a.wayne** · September 5, 2021, 02:35 AM

So Serge,

No way to seriously hear if One amp sounds differently from another unless we bench test it ?

Sad to see such an iconic brand go down in flames like this , their along way off the MC3500 set the world standard trajectory of the 1960’s ..

I think our new world reviewer “Jay” gave them midfi packup and run status as they never made his top 10 American made amp list , which only had 3 amps listed ..

Jay’s food Hamburger rating analogies would put this “Big Mac” on the 1.00 value menu ..

Regards

**bzr** · September 5, 2021, 07:01 AM

for me, I had 2301's & Stradivari's, period!!! I knew then & there that there was not another pairing that was better as far as McIntosh need be mentioned. Some may disagree but the choir, well,.... they all heard it before. I've watched some really smart guys on here ride the massive power train as in high powered amps, of McIntosh, soon as they got to an exit, the brakes came on & the really nice coloured meters left the building...

**brodricj** · September 5, 2021, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by AVphile

...Sunlight software update to his PS Audio Directstream DAC..

My hunch there is the problem. I vaguely recall in the PS forums that something whacky can happen in rare cases with this update, consistent with your observations. Again, testing my memory, the solution was to roll-back to an earlier version software and do the Sunlight upgrade again.

**TheOctopus** · September 5, 2021, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by a.wayne

So Serge,

No way to seriously hear if One amp sounds differently from another unless we bench test it ?

Sad to see such an iconic brand go down in flames like this , their along way off the MC3500 set the world standard trajectory of the 1960’s ..

I think our new world reviewer “Jay” gave them midfi packup and run status as they never made his top 10 American made amp list , which only had 3 amps listed ..

Jay’s food Hamburger rating analogies would put this “Big Mac” on the 1.00 value menu ..

Regards

That's right. How do you hear "excellence"? If the amp is to be excellent, it needs to get out of the way of music and never add any flavor and color. Same with other components actually. Isn't that the idea of High End Audio? Or have we become Alchemists playing with ingredients looking for Fool's Gold while throwing fists full of dollars at the "laboratories" in our homes in the never ending quest for some "perfection". Perfection which is neither quantifiable nor can ever be agreed upon by two different parties due to our own physiological differences.

**mep** · September 5, 2021, 10:06 AM

Some people need to give up this hobby and find a new one because they obviously hate audio and feel all is for naught. if you spend more time trashing audiophiles and gear than you talk about the positive aspects of this hobby, it's time to move on.

**TheOctopus** · September 5, 2021, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by mep

Some people need to give up this hobby and find a new one because they obviously hate audio and feel all is for naught. if you spend more time trashing audiophiles and gear than you talk about the positive aspects of this hobby, it's time to move on.

Hate? Where did you pick up on that sour note? I've had and continue to have a very fortunate position to be enjoying music while having played with much gear over the decades and continue to do so. At some point, all that experience and wisdom along the way, has taught me what is and what is NOT important. But to each their own.

Actually this thread started out accusing some McIntosh amps of souring a system. In no time, there were other parties involved parroting the same notion...

I politely pointed out that some of our GOLDEN ears/Reviewers who we trust to bring us their "findings" from their laboratories, after careful scrutiny of audio gear, came to the conclusion the MC1.25KW is a very warm, rich and smooth amplifier.

Another words, exactly what I would have expected!

There is only one thing to AGREE on with this hobby is that we all DISAGREE....

But HATE has nothing to do with it. I enjoy the hobby very much because it lets me enjoy MUSIC that much more.

**joeinid** · September 5, 2021, 11:00 AM

Hi Serge,

Regarding the 1.25kw, they are not warm, smooth and rich - especially compared the the mc452 and that era amps. I’ve owned the 1.25’s and I couldn’t get past the harsh and aggressive treble with a slightly gritty texture. They were nothing like their predecessors, unfortunately. That was with my Strads and Studio2 speakers. I couldn’t take it.

I love McIntosh, but not every model.

**TheOctopus** · September 5, 2021, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by joeinid

Hi Serge,

Regarding the 1.25kw, they are not warm, smooth and rich - especially compared the the mc452 and that era amps. I’ve owned the 1.25’s and I couldn’t get past the harsh and aggressive treble with a slightly gritty texture. They were nothing like their predecessors, unfortunately. That was with my Strads and Studio2 speakers. I couldn’t take it.

I love McIntosh, but not every model.

Hence my point Joe. The review said completely the opposite. Hence we can never agree on anything audio related. Why not? Because there is no standard, no benchmark, way too many variables and it all starts at the foundation of the Speaker to Room interaction and builds from there. No systems, even if they are the same, will ever sound quite the same in two different rooms. Not to mention we do hear differently due to physiology, age and hearing acuity. One man's tweeter is another man's silence...

**Mike Lavigne** · September 5, 2021, 11:52 AM

i'm neutral on the Mac amp question as i've just not paid much attention to them for 4 decades.......since i owned a MC2105 and MR78 in 1976 with Bose 901's. i know there are very good ones, and others not so good.....but don't know them.

my 2 cents on how to react to your friend is that.....it depends. have you previously established a level of mutual trust that would be a basis for honest critique? that is a rare situation......and unlikely. apparently he purchased this gear without your feedback.

for now, i would be supportive but just give him space and allow him to get past the honeymoon period and see if tires of it on his own. he may get to a point where he has second thoughts and comes back to you for a second run at feedback. then you can let him know about your reservations, talk about room and system set-up, and maybe offer to lend your ears to help with room adjustments.....and allow things to take their own course.

basically this person has to 'learn' and the first step is to want to learn. right now he is in gear lust and needs to get past that. if he never does then that's on him and his path to system maturity might be blocked.

personally i went through the cycles of room lust and gear lust many times. where i was not open to feedback. but.....over time i would get past my ego part and get curious and lose interest in what i was hearing, which would open my mind to feedback. it's normal especially until you really get your own reference for what you want to hear.

**still-one** · September 5, 2021, 02:25 PM

Most of us realize that the happy owner probably has the same thoughts in his head after listening to your systems.

**a.wayne** · September 5, 2021, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by TheOctopus

Hence my point Joe. The review said completely the opposite. Hence we can never agree on anything audio related. Why not? Because there is no standard, no benchmark, way too many variables and it all starts at the foundation of the Speaker to Room interaction and builds from there. No systems, even if they are the same, will ever sound quite the same in two different rooms. Not to mention we do hear differently due to physiology, age and hearing acuity. One man's tweeter is another man's silence...

Agree..!

We all agree you could be partially deaf serge , all those years of riding with 2 Brothers open pipes ...

**Mr Peabody** · September 6, 2021, 12:34 PM

I wonder what your friend would say if you asked how he liked the new additions? Sometimes a person may just be looking for comfirmation, good or bad. Your elationship would dictate how much honesty he could handle. I have a friend who I know wants to know the truth and others I know to be more diplomatic with.

Sad to hear Mac went off course on the 1.2. Love them or notat least you used to know what you were getting with a Mac.

Man, I am sick of Octopus polluting every thread on the site. Did I say that out loud?

Or, maybe if we just didn't address him threads wouldn't evolve into such a mess.

**TheOctopus** · September 6, 2021, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

I wonder what your friend would say if you asked how he liked the new additions? Sometimes a person may just be looking for comfirmation, good or bad. Your elationship would dictate how much honesty he could handle. I have a friend who I know wants to know the truth and others I know to be more diplomatic with.

Sad to hear Mac went off course on the 1.2. Love them or notat least you used to know what you were getting with a Mac.

Man, I am sick of Octopus polluting every thread on the site. Did I say that out loud?

Or, maybe if we just didn't address him threads wouldn't evolve into such a mess.

Polluting? Adding reason to the grossly obvious, unreasonable and blind worship which often makes zero sense to anyone with even an ounce of reason left in their heads, outside the happy audio circle. That’s polluting?

You go on swinging from the nutsack tree and nod in unison like a good little audio parrot. Read more reviews, get more group confirmation bias and keep on with your delusions and spread them to your friends that want your very unbiased and educated opinion. It’s all time well spent and that’s not polluting.

**TheOctopus** · September 6, 2021, 01:12 PM

28 replies and not an ounce of useful information... A thread that starts out with an audiophile being proud of his system after spending a good chunk of money on it. Another concerned audiophile, a friend, happens to strongly dislike the new and improved sound. After a round of at least 3 opinions against an amplifier which at the same time is reviewed very positively by the "audiophile press" and those that consider themselves connoisseurs of good sound and audio knowledge to spread it to others while trusting their ears to bring accurate information forward... It seems determined they are crap...

At a glance one can deduce a few facts for sure but the main point is missed all together. That the guy with a grin on his face listening to his MC1.25KW may actually be happy and enjoying music, not being aware of the slamming of his amplifiers going on. Don't know if he would care or not armed with the knowledge that half a dozen of other audiophiles voiced their dissatisfaction of that amplifier but I would say that ignorance may truly be bliss.

**a.wayne** · September 6, 2021, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

I wonder what your friend would say if you asked how he liked the new additions? Sometimes a person may just be looking for comfirmation, good or bad. Your elationship would dictate how much honesty he could handle. I have a friend who I know wants to know the truth and others I know to be more diplomatic with.

Sad to hear Mac went off course on the 1.2. Love them or notat least you used to know what you were getting with a Mac.

Man, I am sick of Octopus polluting every thread on the site. Did I say that out loud?

Or, maybe if we just didn't address him threads wouldn't evolve into such a mess.

First Law :

Criticize the wife, the cooking , the house but never the Hifi system ...!

Based on current Mac comments it seems best bet is anything pre 1990 SS , to hear good Mac sound ..

**a.wayne** · September 6, 2021, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by TheOctopus

28 replies and not an ounce of useful information... A thread that starts out with an audiophile being proud of his system after spending a good chunk of money on it. Another concerned audiophile, a friend, happens to strongly dislike the new and improved sound. After a round of at least 3 opinions against an amplifier which at the same time is reviewed very positively by the "audiophile press" and those that consider themselves connoisseurs of good sound and audio knowledge to spread it to others while trusting their ears to bring accurate information forward... It seems determined they are crap...

At a glance one can deduce a few facts for sure but the main point is missed all together. That the guy with a grin on his face listening to his MC1.25KW may actually be happy and enjoying music, not being aware of the slamming of his amplifiers going on. Don't know if he would care or not armed with the knowledge that half a dozen of other audiophiles voiced their dissatisfaction of that amplifier but I would say that ignorance may truly be bliss.

I sense Irony , Rust and decay in this post ...!

**TheOctopus** · September 6, 2021, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by a.wayne

I sense Irony , Rust and decay in this post ...!

Audio and Irony go hand in hand. "Audio Irony", has a nice ring to it. Could be a good idea for a new "review" publication name...

**rbbert** · September 6, 2021, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by a.wayne

...
Based on current Mac comments it seems best bet is anything pre 1990 SS , to hear good Mac sound ..

Nothing wrong with the current tube offerings, and I suspect the same for some of the current SS lineup

**KeithR** · September 6, 2021, 10:36 PM

I loved my MC601s, sometimes miss such a simple all Mac setup.

What's interesting is I found the 601s so physically large, never even considered the 1.2ks

**tube-vds** · September 7, 2021, 05:48 AM

Of course, you should not say "This sounds like crap" - but I think it's ok to say what you do not like so much about the sound in a constructive way.

If a friend can not say his honest opinion to you, he's not a real friend.

My 2 ct.

**AJ Soundfield** · September 7, 2021, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by AVphile

Earlier this week, I was invited to a friend's home to listen to what he said were "significant upgrades" to his audio system.
Unchanged were his McIntosh C2600 preamplifer
Various terms that come to mind in describing it are bright, shrill, piercing, exaggerated treble, etc.
can anyone suggest where and how it went astray?

Hi AVP,
I'm not an audiophile, so please forgive/take my "remote" analysis, basic logic, reasoning, etc question(s) as such.
Did you double check to make sure the bass/treble/tone controls were zeroed on C2600 for each input you listened to?

cheers,

AJ

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