Could it be I don't care for Class A

I may have given the wrong impression of the 8. It could also be wrong of me to stereotype Class A sound.

I did some more listening today, amp swapping. I stayed withsome favorite Traffic songs which was interestingly really good for the comparison.

The 8 is just as quic as the 532h and I don't get rounded edges from the 8, in fact, drums were snappy and the bass lines cleaner. The 532h spreads the sound stage out more. The 8 in most aspects provides the most detail. There is just an undeniable synergy between the two Levinson pieces. Or, perhaps the 8 prefers a different preamp. My friend who replaced his Krell KSA-250 with an 8 also has the Coda 07x preamp. I unfortunately have not been able to check his rig out yet.

I would rather try to sell the 8 opposed to changing my system, another preamp etc.

I don't think it's Class A of the 8 as much as the tonal character of my system with it in. I can't explain that except it is. Keep in mind I sold a new 50.2 for similar reasons. Similar, for lack of a better word, what was the same I just didn't care for the sound I was getting with it in my system. The 8 is more like it's really good but not to my taste.

Calvin have you heard both Pass and Boulder? From the Boulder I've heard the brands have very different presentations. In fact, I was surprised to learn Boulder was Class A.

I just wondered what your impressions were of the two. Or, anyone else who may have heard both.

Mr Peabody said:

Calvin have you heard both Pass and Boulder? From the Boulder I've heard the brands have very different presentations. In fact, I was surprised to learn Boulder was Class A.

I just wondered what your impressions were of the two. Or, anyone else who may have heard both.

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I haven't heard the Boulder yet, only spoken about them with Mike who has me seriously considering the 2150s. It and the MSBs are on my Post-COVID List to listen too.

A friend who lives about a mile away and posts on this forum just purchased a Boulder stereo amp. He also owns(ed) Pass and Audio Research amps. He has a keen ear and doesn't purchase anything lightly. Unfortunately, he won't have it hooked up until next month when Mike delivers him some new speakers. What a system he will have!!!

It seems it was the older Boulder series I heard, Mike gave a description on another thread.

I didn't know Ed had such a nice collection. I wonder if he will keep the Soundfield speakers.

Calvin said:

I haven't heard the Boulder yet, only spoken about them with Mike who has me seriously considering the 2150s. It and the MSBs are on my Post-COVID List to listen too.

A friend who lives about a mile away and posts on this forum just purchased a Boulder stereo amp. He also owns(ed) Pass and Audio Research amps. He has a keen ear and doesn't purchase anything lightly. Unfortunately, he won't have it hooked up until next month when Mike delivers him some new speakers. What a system he will have!!!

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Feanor said:

Hi, Mechnutt. I see this post is quite awhile ago but the issue or "detail" versus "round" has been quite relevant for me recently. Reading the objectivist hype over at Audio Science Review I decided to try Purifi 1ET400A-based amp. I also decided to sell my Pass Labs X150.5 having owned and enjoyed it for several years.

Well, the Purifi is a champion of resolution, transparency, and dynamics and the expense of being stone cold and highly intolerant of 2nd rate recordings. See my review at Audio Asylum ... REVIEW: VTV Amplifier Purifi 1ET400A Stereo Amplifier (SS) - Feanor - Amp/Preamp Asylum

My dilema today is whether I ought to retreat to a "rounder" sounding amp or take some other measure to mitigate the coldness of the Purifi. I have tried my Schiit Freya + preamp in Tube v. Passive Mode: this did "round" the presentation a bit plus offered tubes' "holographic" sound. However I quickly found myself missing the full transparency of the straight Purifi. So I'm still wondering what's to do?

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Hi Bill,

You may want to consider a Pass 0.8 series amp which is a different animal from the 0.5 series. Great transparency and sound stage but not sterile sounding. Based on the reviews it may be what you are looking for without sacrificing detail. Another option is to try a Prima Luna tube preamp. Also, a DAC like an Aqua La Voce or an original Chord Hugo may give you what you are looking for.

Calvin said:

Interesting. Again, my statement was based upon what I've heard by Pass users in the forums.

From what I understand with the monos you have a greater overall surface area to help dissipate the heat better. 250.8 (19 x 21.25 x 9) as compared to the 260.8s (19 x 21.25 x 7.5 - *** times two). Everything in the 250.8 is stuck into one box, so wouldn't it feel and run hotter?

There's only 9 Class A watts difference between the the 250.8 and 260.8. I'm not sure we could tell the heat difference from 9 watts. And the 600s, which have app. triple the Class A watts of the 260s allegedly run about the same temp as the 260.8s. But they also have a larger chassis (19 x 21.5 x 11 - *** times two).

A question: Would the Power Consumption of both amps make a difference in heat? 250.8 - 450 watts vs the 260.8 at 375 watts.

IMO, the smaller surface area of a 250.8 may make it feel and run warmer.

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the initial Class A bias of the 260's is actually 18 watts greater than that of the 250. Remember, a Class A amp at idle has but one way to dissipate it's energy, through heat for there is no load being driven. Regardless I do not consider the 260's to be a major issue, is it noticeable in the summer time, yes, but not a deal breaker IMO.

Mikado463 said:

the initial Class A bias of the 260's is actually 18 watts greater than that of the 250. Remember, a Class A amp at idle has but one way to dissipate it's energy, through heat for there is no load being driven. Regardless I do not consider the 260's to be a major issue, is it noticeable in the summer time, yes, but not a deal breaker IMO.

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. My bad you are correct on the Class A wattage.

Feanor said:

Hi, Mechnutt. I see this post is quite awhile ago but the issue or "detail" versus "round" has been quite relevant for me recently. Reading the objectivist hype over at Audio Science Review I decided to try Purifi 1ET400A-based amp. I also decided to sell my Pass Labs X150.5 having owned and enjoyed it for several years.

Well, the Purifi is a champion of resolution, transparency, and dynamics and the expense of being stone cold and highly intolerant of 2nd rate recordings. See my review at Audio Asylum ... REVIEW: VTV Amplifier Purifi 1ET400A Stereo Amplifier (SS) - Feanor - Amp/Preamp Asylum

My dilema today is whether I ought to retreat to a "rounder" sounding amp or take some other measure to mitigate the coldness of the Purifi. I have tried my Schiit Freya + preamp in Tube v. Passive Mode: this did "round" the presentation a bit plus offered tubes' "holographic" sound. However I quickly found myself missing the full transparency of the straight Purifi. So I'm still wondering what's to do?

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Are you sure your system didn't take a backwards turn in SQ when you swapped out your Magnapan speakers for kit speakers you installed in a kit cabinet that was less than optimum in volume for the woofer used as well as replacing your Pass X150.5 amp with a cheaper priced Class D amp?

Larry, the Cary and Primare are opposite ends of the spectrum. What made your son decide to sell the A21? If he feels Cary is too warm I'd recommend something not as Primare, maybe small step that direction. I've not heard any current Primare but their gear came off as a bit edgy sounding to me. We used to have a Primare dealer so I've tried some of the gear and had one of their processors. Of course some balance could be gained by system matching I suppose. I was using Dynaudio at the time I played with Primare so those aren't overly bright speakers.

Bill, have you looked at the Schitt Alger power amp? Maybe misspelled. A friend bought two and tried as monoblocks, he loved the sound but they couldn't push his speakers. May be an option if your speakers are efficient. Larry had pretty good experience building a Pass preamp from a kit, that may be an option as well to keep good sound while adding a touch of warmth.

Feanor said:

The 1ET400A is indeed Purifi, not Hypex; it's really just another name for the Eigentakt.

By the way, the NAD M33 is very impressive in its capabilities.

That Purifi module is usually coupled to some sort of input buffer that provide a some extra gain. The point is that this buffer can color the sound to some extent. The buffer usually include an op amp but might used a discrete circuit to provide this gain. My VTV amp uses a VTV buffer with at Sparkos SS3062 op amp, while NAD uses its own, proprietary buffer, so it's possible that my amp and your NAD could sound subtly different.

In any case, I misspoke describing the Purifi as "stone cold": the phrase has too negative a connotation. Rather I should simply have said it that it's not warm.

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Thanks Bill. According to NAD, they worked with Purifi on the Eigentakt module and make it themselves rather than buy the standard unit off-the-shelf. They say:

"NAD’s renowned designers worked closely with Purifi Audio to customise the Eigentakt implementation to ensure every product featuring the technology would meet the high standards NAD is known for. For this reason, NAD manufactures its own Eigentakt modules rather than buy off-the-shelf. Eigentakt is a once-in-a-decade amplifier innovation that will define the pinnacle of power and performance for years to come. It’s not often that such novel audiophile technology is made available with so much value packed in."

How different the NAD version is compared with the off-the-shelf version I don't know but the output of NAD's M33 is quoted as 200 / 380 watts compaed with the 1ET400A's spec of ??? / 425 watts. Perhaps NAD found that de-powering improved the sound quality.

However, you can bet your boots that NAD will be looking to find an even better amp module long before the "once-in-a-decade" period has ended! I'm sure the M34 is less than a decade away!

For the time being, I'm happy with the M33 - as I was for a few years with its predecessor the Direct Digital based M32. Both great amps of exceptional value.

Peter

Mr Peabody said:

Larry, the Cary and Primare are opposite ends of the spectrum. What made your son decide to sell the A21? If he feels Cary is too warm I'd recommend something not as Primare, maybe small step that direction. I've not heard any current Primare but their gear came off as a bit edgy sounding to me. We used to have a Primare dealer so I've tried some of the gear and had one of their processors. Of course some balance could be gained by system matching I suppose. I was using Dynaudio at the time I played with Primare so those aren't overly bright speakers.
.

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My son really likes the Cary. It is not too warm but it does not have that very crisp attack and extreme detail that the Primare has. The Cary has a lot of detail and a rich full bodied sound with a huge sound stage and great dynamics. It really is a great integrated. The Primare is just different with more detail, resolution and transparency. He is just second guessing himself because we thought that the Primare-Wharfedale room with the new Evo 4.4 speakers (which he ended up buying and are a truly remarkable speaker at its price and out performs speaker costing twice as much) at RMAF was one of the better sounding rooms at the show.

He sold the A21 because he needed a new DAC and preamp and wanted a more audiophile sound. The Cary fits the bill and then some.

had a beautiful class A amp here , absolutely stunning with my tannoys but with my horns it was too much for my ears !! i guess it all depends on synergy with the speakers !!

Mr Peabody said:

Going back to my Pass X250, I enjoyed that amp and the sound, however, moved to Levinson liking the sharper leading edges and quicker response better.

There are characters of the Coda 8 that are better than my Levinson, more intelligible vocals and better detail in some aspects overall, it's just as fast, yet there is something I still likeabout listening to the Levinson better. The Coda has such a quiet background you'd have to hear it to believe.

I am mad at myself it takes me so long to figure these things out, now I am not able to return the 8. I'm going to try to get $5k back out of it, not even 120 days yet.

The real mystery to me is what is it I can't fully enjoy the 8, it's a great amp by anyone's standards. The 8 version I have is Class A for the first 12 watts, I'm wondering if I have an issue that I am one who may not prfer Class A. I don't like overly aggressive amps either. I guess we all have our sweet spot.

I also listen to a wide variety of music so amps that may excel on certain genres would present an issue for me.

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SS amplifiers have to be selected for the load they are going to drive no differently than how one would spend the time to match their tube amp selection to the speakers.


How much class A is the levinson ..?

Calvin said:

I don't recall anyone stating they could hear the slide from Class A to B. However, having more Class A bias does effect the sound of the amp overall. As Pass states on their website, "Like all of the class A/B .8's, this amplifier has some class A bias, rewarding its listeners with a whole new zenith of sound quality."

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The slide is noticeable , this is why its important to match to speakers sensitivity, impedance Load and listening level desired ..



Regards

I'm not sure, Levinson to my knowledge has never published that but I suspect very little.

I've never been able to detect the slide from classs A to A/B. Maybe I've not driven any of the amps that hard orjust don't know what to listen for. Unless the A/B had a high distortion rating I don't see how anyone could hear the transition. The power draw would vary depending on demand, if the transition was audible can you imagine the volume being on the threshold where the amp switched back and forth several times a song?

a.wayne said:

SS amplifiers have to be selected for the load they are going to drive no differently than how one would spend the time to match their tube amp selection to the speakers.


How much class A is the levinson ..?

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I have owned a ton of equipment as I like buying new stuff and seeing if I can make it work in my system. I also limit the amount I can spend on each purchase so I can try more stuff. That said, I have quite an inventory of cables so I can change the sound to my liking. Only once have I not been happy with my system when adding a new component (which was just recently). Why not take advantage of The Cable Company's loan program and try different cables with the Coda? It will probably be a bit cheaper to tune with cables than tune with components.

Perhaps Class D?

I run a pair of JBL 4365 monitors in a second system powered by Marantz PM-10 (and a SA-10 cdp). I find it enjoyable.

Of course some think of Marantz as low brow.......not me.

Mr Peabody said:

I'm not sure, Levinson to my knowledge has never published that but I suspect very little.

I've never been able to detect the slide from classs A to A/B. Maybe I've not driven any of the amps that hard orjust don't know what to listen for. Unless the A/B had a high distortion rating I don't see how anyone could hear the transition. The power draw would vary depending on demand, if the transition was audible can you imagine the volume being on the threshold where the amp switched back and forth several times a song?

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Most likely your only leaving class A on dynamic peaks if it was avg din outside of class A you would notice it most likely in the top end. Also heatsinks temps affects the slide if too hot they will stay out of class A meaning you wont notice anything as its permanently outside of class A.

This is worst case scenario thou , amp would have to be roasting the heat sinks with high temps, if so most likely there would be no class A Bias , which could be what you are hearing as oppose to more class A bias ..


Regards

Mr Peabody said:

Gary, the Wayback would certainly fix things.

Joe, I probably didn't explain myself well enough. I knew the Pass was Class A up to a point, I was trying to show I moved on from the Pass to the 532h, some Class A to an amp with very little.

Dave,I suspect you nailed it. Liking a more accurate amp and keeping with one that won't offend leaves a narrow field. Or, high price tag, LOL

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Your levinson has a 4amp idle draw so it has some class A power .. Im estimating 25-high of 30 watts per channel class A bias ..


Regards

I looked at that Marantz pair back when but couldn't find reviews or much said about them.

I'd like to hear what the ATI Class D sound like.

tom1040 said:

Perhaps Class D?

I run a pair of JBL 4365 monitors in a second system powered by Marantz PM-10 (and a SA-10 cdp). I find it enjoyable.

Of course some think of Marantz as low brow.......not me.

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