Budgeting your system

**Mike** · June 18, 2017, 07:32 AM

Do you agree with this ratio?

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**Melbguy1** · June 18, 2017, 08:44 AM

I would prefer it if an audiophile genuinely trying to work out how much to spend on different components posted this thread. I'm already flat out answering the dozen or more market research emails and texts I receive every week..

**Alpinist** · June 18, 2017, 08:57 AM

Hi Mike,

When I put together a system, I generally allocate as much funds as possible towards the speakers, because it is my anchor component. Then I back fill over time with amps, source, cables, power, etc. I generally agree with your pie chart, although the speaker percentage may be on the high side, I would say a range from at least 50% to what is shown on the pie chart. I do agree with the order. Of course, if the component you desire is an incredible deal or abnormally pricey, it could throw off these percentages (i.e. Magnepan 20.7 or Transparent cabling).

Best,
Ken

**Randy Myers** · June 18, 2017, 09:03 AM

Hmmmm.... not really... depends on speakers and size, etc. Are they grouping all electronics into that one small piece.... amp, preamp, DAC, reclockers, etc.?

I guess it is personal preference, but if you emphasis speakers that much the chances are you will not get the electronics to power them correctly, unless you are one of the lucky ones who has unlimited budget.

According to that chart it looks like about 70% in speakers. So say you are lucky enough to have a $30,000 budget. $21,000 in speakers, and $9000 in preamplifier, amplifier, DAC, reclockers, stands (including possibly speaker stands), cabling, music server, SACD/CD spinner, possibly a tuner and/or turntable (phono stage). No way in hell would this work. Unless you are someone fortunate enough to be able to purchase $100,000 - $200,000 speakers could this break down possibly work.

Take it even further and break down my system. I am very happy at this point to where it has gone and I have looked for and picked up improvements many times. Purely at retail value to try and see how it compares to the chart.

In my case I have a system at about $35k+/- range with speakers valued in the $5500 range... so according to this chart I should have $20,000+ speakers... basically I could have never put together a system. Or, judging by the rest of my component I should have a $70,000+/- speaker. Again, it could never have happened.

My point being, this type of chart is very prohibitive. Someone looking to get into this hobby would see that and put all of their money into speakers and never be able to actually enjoy the system because there would be no synergy and everything else would be so out of whack... The formula works for those with the upper tier budget, not for the average person in my opinion.

**CPP** · June 18, 2017, 09:30 AM

It must be right as I just can't see having a $10,000 amp pushing sound into a pair of $500 floorstanders. It just wouldn't be Audiophileish

But when you look at the mass market of music users, its a smart phone and ear buds. Kinda blows the chart all to heck don't it.

**the professor** · June 18, 2017, 10:17 AM

I think it's too high of a percentage for speakers. I would think that a single source and amps would be in the 50% range.

**a.wayne** · June 18, 2017, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

Do you agree with this ratio?

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Yes , those are reasonable ratios ...

**a.wayne** · June 18, 2017, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

Hmmmm.... not really... depends on speakers and size, etc. Are they grouping all electronics into that one small piece.... amp, preamp, DAC, reclockers, etc.?

I guess it is personal preference, but if you emphasis speakers that much the chances are you will not get the electronics to power them correctly, unless you are one of the lucky ones who has unlimited budget.

According to that chart it looks like about 70% in speakers. So say you are lucky enough to have a $30,000 budget. $21,000 in speakers, and $9000 in preamplifier, amplifier, DAC, reclockers, stands (including possibly speaker stands), cabling, music server, SACD/CD spinner, possibly a tuner and/or turntable (phono stage). No way in hell would this work. Unless you are someone fortunate enough to be able to purchase $100,000 - $200,000 speakers could this break down possibly work.

Take it even further and break down my system. I am very happy at this point to where it has gone and I have looked for and picked up improvements many times. Purely at retail value to try and see how it compares to the chart.

In my case I have a system at about $35k+/- range with speakers valued in the $5500 range... so according to this chart I should have $20,000+ speakers... basically I could have never put together a system. Or, judging by the rest of my component I should have a $70,000+/- speaker. Again, it could never have happened.

My point being, this type of chart is very prohibitive. Someone looking to get into this hobby would see that and put all of their money into speakers and never be able to actually enjoy the system because there would be no synergy and everything else would be so out of whack... The formula works for those with the upper tier budget, not for the average person in my opinion.

IME,

You would end up with a much better system using the pie chart ratios than your current ratios with your 35K budget, best to look at the chart as a flexable reference not a set in stone absolute , but yes, most of your budget should be for speakers ..

Its applicable even if buying new or used ... speaker first then amp to load and demand .

Regards

**Randy Myers** · June 18, 2017, 11:39 AM

I also believe that price is not always a determining factor in equipment. I will use my speakers as an example. Designed by Wolfgang Meletzky and designed to have similar sound characteristics as his first line but also affordable, well by what I heard him describe "a person with a good job can save up and afford his second line of gear". His first line was MBL; I assume many know this, but if not....

I feel I would have to go at least three times the price to get a speaker that would be as satisfying to me.

I have to look for value in equipment, otherwise I could not afford anything

...

**anji12305** · June 18, 2017, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

Do you agree with this ratio?

I spend money on equipment I can't build myself. Current Digital streamers rely on VLSI semiconductors and fine connections I can't see, let alone assemble.

I would say this ratio is reasonable, if you buy at retail prices: the modern electronics are amazingly good for the money such that transducers are now the single largest point of distortion.

Personally, I don't often buy new.

**LenWhite** · June 18, 2017, 12:30 PM

My current ratio (based on list):
Speakers 33%
Amplification 16%
Source Components 12%
Cabling 22%
Power Conditioning 2%
Resonance Control 3%
Room Acoustics 11%

**Mike Lavigne** · June 18, 2017, 12:33 PM

so much of any system is scaling the speakers to the room, and to your personal musical outlook. if the speakers either move too much air, or not enough, or it's driver type is not room compatible, then that will be an obstacle never conquered. next you need to match the amps to the speakers appropriately and to taste and balance.

if you can get those three things right and synergizing, you can go very, very, modest in other spots and have great sound. these days you can find digital players that can drive amps directly, and be fed by a laptop directly streaming......and sound excellent. preamps are important at the top of the food chain, but become liabilities at modest price points, as interconnects and budget circuits get in the way.

as far as budget, view speakers and amps as one package, and approach it in that way. and maybe even reach a little for the speakers if you need to, with an amp upgrade already determined as the next move. don't stress about sources and preamps.

of course; past a certain point every damn thing matters. but this thread is not about that. my budget ratio is not relevant to anyone else.

**the professor** · June 18, 2017, 12:39 PM

Very well said

I agree 100%

Thanks

**the professor** · June 18, 2017, 12:58 PM

Percentage wise - rough remembering of what I spent - Main system

Speakers plus subs 39%
Pre and power amps 24%
Power and interconnects 12%
Digital 3%
Tape 8%
Music material 14%

**the professor** · June 18, 2017, 01:02 PM

Sorta sad that my music is such a low percentage. It's actually an interesting experiment to calculate.

**a.wayne** · June 18, 2017, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne

so much of any system is scaling the speakers to the room, and to your personal musical outlook. if the speakers either move too much air, or not enough, or it's driver type is not room compatible, then that will be an obstacle never conquered. next you need to match the amps to the speakers appropriately and to taste and balance.

if you can get those three things right and synergizing, you can go very, very, modest in other spots and have great sound. these days you can find digital players that can drive amps directly, and be fed by a laptop directly streaming......and sound excellent. preamps are important at the top of the food chain, but become liabilities at modest price points, as interconnects and budget circuits get in the way.

as far as budget, view speakers and amps as one package, and approach it in that way. and maybe even reach a little for the speakers if you need to, with an amp upgrade already determined as the next move. don't stress about sources and preamps.

of course; past a certain point every damn thing matters. but this thread is not about that. my budget ratio is not relevant to anyone else.

Mike,

Such a pie chart is for those on a Budget , it will not apply to an all out SOTA attempt ( as stated ) like yours. The pie chart will be most relevant imo, when working with a budget of say 10-100K as a example, then it's best most of that budget goes towards speakers.

We agree on everything else ....

Regards

**Randy Myers** · June 18, 2017, 02:53 PM

I sort of agree in the upper end of your range.... in the lower end I do not. In say a $10k budget... $5 - $7k for speakers and the rest of the system for the remaining does not seem correct to me. Just too much to get for $3- $5k to make owning that level of a speaker worth while.... just my opinion....

**soundqcar** · June 18, 2017, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by LenWhite

My current ratio (based on list):
Speakers 33%
Amplification 16%
Source Components 12%
Cabling 22%
Power Conditioning 2%
Resonance Control 3%
Room Acoustics 11%

I like this breakdown. For me anyway, cabling % might be a bit high, but I can't stress the room acoustics enough, that's for sure.

**kzhtoo** · June 18, 2017, 04:34 PM

To me power foundation is the key to every system. Something like Denali conditioner or P10 regeneration is a must have. It also works if you have multi dedicated lines. But this is minimum if you aspire to true high fidelity.
The chart doesn't even contain power conditioning (power cable in it is more like 2-3%). If I just assume 5% for $4-5k for the power conditioning mentioned above, this chart won't work for me for systems up to $80-100k.
TBH this chart looks like it's made by someone from all cables, amps sound the same camp.

**a.wayne** · June 18, 2017, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

I sort of agree in the upper end of your range.... in the lower end I do not. In say a $10k budget... $5 - $7k for speakers and the rest of the system for the remaining does not seem correct to me. Just too much to get for $3- $5k to make owning that level of a speaker worth while.... just my opinion....

We can devil advocate your 10K system , i will use the high 70% budget, you use your method and less see what we come up with..

Let the games begin ... 😀

**a.wayne** · June 18, 2017, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

To me power foundation is the key to every system. Something like Denali conditioner or P10 regeneration is a must have. It also works if you have multi dedicated lines. But this is minimum if you aspire to true high fidelity.
The chart doesn't even contain power conditioning (power cable in it is more like 2-3%). If I just assume 5% for $4-5k for the power conditioning mentioned above, this chart won't work for me for systems up to $80-100k.
TBH this chart looks like it's made by someone from all cables, amps sound the same camp.

Power conditioners are supply dependent they make the biggest difference on bad lines and poorly designed PSU's , so not really a winner in every setup ..

a lipstick mod imo , as oppose to solid foundation basics ..

**kzhtoo** · June 18, 2017, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Power conditioners are supply dependent they make the biggest difference on bad lines and poorly designed PSU's , so not really a winner in every setup ..

a lipstick mod imo , as oppose to solid foundation basics ..

Not everyone can revamp their house electrical system to fit one's audio needs, hence these type of power conditioning, regeneration or isolation with dedicated lines.

**sharkmouth** · June 18, 2017, 07:15 PM

Is the pie rrp or what I paid discount?

There is no way in hell I'd pay rrp for all of this gear!

Speakers are 50%, amp & source are at 30%, cables & power are 20%

**AJ Soundfield** · June 18, 2017, 09:41 PM

Speakers should be 95%

**bonzo** · June 19, 2017, 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

Do you agree with this ratio?

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I agree on spending the most on speakers provided you can get speakers of your choice. What does a guy do if he is space constrained or budget constrained? IMO, you can get to a decent level of analog, digital (given my final choice is Lampi), and pretty good amps especially if you are on the SET or OTL front, much more easily than to the final set of speakers, as speakers will be limited by space too, let alone budget. There are no space limitation on electronics.

**Speedskater** · June 19, 2017, 07:46 AM

I like the pie chart in the first post with these modifications.

a] The room is as important as the speakers.
b] The amplifiers need to be happy driving the speakers. Not all good amplifiers mate with all good speakers.
c] With the exceptions of turntable & speaker stands, other stands are just furniture.
d] I would use the same cables with a modest system as an expensive system, so it's not a percentage.

**AJ Soundfield** · June 19, 2017, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by bonzo

What does a guy do if he is space constrained or budget constrained?

If one is a music lover, wisely chosen active speakers. Source (w/wo pre depending). Bam, music flows.
If one is afflicted with audiophilia, well...

**CPP** · June 19, 2017, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

If one is a music lover, wisely chosen active speakers. Source (w/wo pre depending). Bam, music flows.
If one is afflicted with audiophilia, well...

AJ kinda like this video you posted on another site

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9o_eZGaaMk And the hidden message within """ Is it a religion or a disease "

**Mike** · June 19, 2017, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by CPP

AJ kinda like this video you posted on another site

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9o_eZGaaMk And the hidden message within """ Is it a religion or a disease "

Is a hobby which invokes deep emotional passion - in a good way. It's how it makes you feel.

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**a.wayne** · June 19, 2017, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

Speakers should be 95%

Just enuff for a good chip amp ...

**a.wayne** · June 19, 2017, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

Not everyone can revamp their house electrical system to fit one's audio needs, hence these type of power conditioning, regeneration or isolation with dedicated lines.

Agree,

If you have a noisy supply or poor wiring then yes you will see worthwhile improvements and very little if you have a good supply. No way are conditioners going to turn an under achieving system to one of gold , if you can include conditioners in your budget then good , but to compromise on the speaker/amp combo to include a conditioner is a negative to me.

You have to get the fundamentals correct before jumping to lipstick mods ...

**AJ Soundfield** · June 19, 2017, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by CPP

AJ kinda like this video you posted on another site

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9o_eZGaaMk And the hidden message within """ Is it a religion or a disease "

I think that might have been posted here previously too.
But yes, what I meant is that active speakers would cut the need from the budget for amps and speaker wires (and endless dart throwing/ swapping thereof)...which might be unthinkable for some who live for such things.
So it might make sense to me within a tight budget/room constraints as Bonzo mentioned...but not someone else.

cheers,

AJ

**Mike** · June 19, 2017, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

I think that might have been posted here previously too.
But yes, what I meant is that active speakers would cut the need from the budget for amps and speaker wires (and endless dart throwing/ swapping thereof)...which might be unthinkable for some who live for such things.
So it might make sense to me within a tight budget/room constraints as Bonzo mentioned...but not someone else.

cheers,

AJ

I've been thinking about a thread on this topic for a long time.

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**AJ Soundfield** · June 19, 2017, 10:32 AM

Active speakers or "simple" systems?

**CPP** · June 19, 2017, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

I think that might have been posted here previously too.
But yes, what I meant is that active speakers would cut the need from the budget for amps and speaker wires (and endless dart throwing/ swapping thereof)...which might be unthinkable for some who live for such things.
So it might make sense to me within a tight budget/room constraints as Bonzo mentioned...but not someone else.

cheers,

AJ

Well said AJ

**CPP** · June 19, 2017, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

Is a hobby which invokes deep emotional passion - in a good way. It's how it makes you feel.

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Just like cars, photography and yes golf as they involve deep emotional passion regardless of the cash you spend. It doesn't have to be $50k speakers, or $10k camera lens or $325 green fees. If you feel good any hobby makes you happy regardless of the cash you spend. So much of late in this hobby has been about the price of gear and the showboating of gear which I think promotes a high level of quality along with innovation but you do not have to spend huge sums of money to enjoy any hobby and get that deep emotional enjoyment you seek. A hobby has never been about the price to enjoy it, it has always been about the passion.

**Mike** · June 19, 2017, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by CPP

Just like cars, photography and yes golf as they involve deep emotional passion regardless of the cash you spend. It doesn't have to be $50k speakers, or $10k camera lens or $325 green fees. If you feel good any hobby makes you happy regardless of the cash you spend. So much of late in this hobby has been about the price of gear and the showboating of gear which I think promotes a high level of quality along with innovation but you do not have to spend huge sums of money to enjoy any hobby and get that deep emotional enjoyment you seek. A hobby has never been about the price to enjoy it, it has always been about the passion.

Absolutely true. But just like with cars and boats, it's the Ferrari 488 and 45 foot Chaparral that people aspire too.

But like you said, it doesn't mean the guy with the $2000 DAC isn't enjoying that new album as much as the guy with the $90,000 DAC.

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**Speedskater** · June 19, 2017, 10:46 AM

With well designed hi-fi equipment, residential AC power should not be a problem.
Power all the hi-fi equipment from the same circuit.
Most electrical noise generating things don't operate 24 by 7, so any EMI/RFI should by traceable to it's source.

**KeithR** · June 19, 2017, 10:56 AM

I guess I'm in the more balanced camp than this example. My speakers and amp/preamp are 25% and 27% respectively of my system with sources totally another third (analog higher than digital of course). Cables are only 6% of my system and that probably won't change.

However, if I upgraded to something like a YG Hailey, then speakers would be 48% of my budget. I think the lesson is it depends on the budget. What might work for a 10k system probably won't do so for a 100k system.

**Mechnutt** · June 19, 2017, 11:12 AM

I guess that I am the odd ball. My electronic's cost way more than my speakers. BAT preamp, Pass amp, Luxman DAC and Magnepan 1.6 speakers with dual subs. I didn't start out that way though, I did upgrades to electronics along the way. Although I am looking at speakers in the $7K range, still way below the cost of the electronics.

**CPP** · June 19, 2017, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

Absolutely true. But just like with cars and boats, it's the Ferrari 488 and 45 foot Chaparral that people aspire too.

But like you said, it doesn't mean the guy with the $2000 DAC isn't enjoying that new album as much as the guy with the $90,000 DAC.

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I'm heading out in the morning to throw down $325 at TPC Sawgrass with three more crazy guys. Not to mention A box of $42.00 golf balls, plus a range ball to offer to the golfing gods on the first water hole.

**Mike** · June 19, 2017, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by CPP

I'm heading out in the morning to throw down $325 at TPC Sawgrass with three more crazy guys. Not to mention A box of $42.00 golf balls, plus a range ball to offer to the golfing gods on the first water hole.

Enjoy! It's a great track. Number 17 never bothered me though. Birdie, birdie, par in the three times I played it from the tips.

18 is another story. Tough hole to make even par on.

And for some reason, hole 1 has my name. The steep slopes on both sides of the green are a bugger.

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**EmiLiuZ** · June 20, 2017, 05:02 AM

My chart would look completely wrong LOL!

**Nikhil** · June 20, 2017, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by CPP

I'm heading out in the morning to throw down $325 at TPC Sawgrass with three more crazy guys. Not to mention A box of $42.00 golf balls, plus a range ball to offer to the golfing gods on the first water hole.

From a fellow hacker ... that is money well spent!

My system breakdown is:

Speakers 43%
Amps 25%
Source 25%
Stands 3%
Cables & Tweaks 4%

**Shadowfax** · June 20, 2017, 10:30 AM

Although I agree that more money towards speaker, in general, is better that too much money towards amplification, I can't even use the chart for my current system. I am finding that the same pair of speakers can sound very close whether paired with $15K worth of gear, or $100K worth.

For my current system, I spent 2x as much on my CDP than I ended up paying for Pre/Amp/Speakers/Cabling, but at the time the gear was new, without the CDP, it would have been

30% Pre
30% Amp
30% Speakers
10% Cables and CDP

When I built my previous system, I did spend double on Speaker vs Pre and Amp and was well rewarded for that choice.

**hifinutt** · June 20, 2017, 11:06 PM

i find it easy to budget my system currently as no money at all !! simple

but i would not agree with the pie chart , amps should have more budget imho

**Mordante** · June 21, 2017, 06:36 AM

I doubt that the pie chart makes any sense at all. There are too many variables. Some people like to have multiple sources. Tape, CD, Streaming, Vinyl etc.

It all depends on how you like to experience the hobby. Adding a vinyl source can really screw up the percentages.

**CPP** · June 21, 2017, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by Mordante

I doubt that the pie chart makes any sense at all. There are too many variables. Some people like to have multiple sources. Tape, CD, Streaming, Vinyl etc.

It all depends on how you like to experience the hobby. Adding a vinyl source can really screw up the percentages.

LOL, heck no you just buy more expensive speakers and amps to make the chart "fall in line"

LOL

**Mikado463** · June 21, 2017, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

But like you said, it doesn't mean the guy with the $2000 DAC isn't enjoying that new album as much as the guy with the $90,000 DAC.

truth be told Mike the guy with the lesser priced DAC probably enjoys his music more since the fella with the high priced unit is more worried about how his precious ego is perceived on the various audio forums ...........

**Devg** · June 22, 2017, 12:25 AM

Originally Posted by Mikado463

truth be told Mike the guy with the lesser priced DAC probably enjoys his music more since the fella with the high priced unit is more worried about how his precious ego is perceived on the various audio forums ...........

Can't agree more

on the corollary, folks who enjoy music with expensive gears probably doesn't bother visiting any audio forums....

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