Thread: Blind comparisons of speakers, amps, and DACs...

Short and sweet.

There is a real, quantifiable and measurable and therefore "audible" difference between 128k and Lossless files.

High quality Headphones, High quality DAC and not much luck with ABX.... Much like previous studies involving the recording industry experts, not enthusiasts...

Something that measures very much different, so that it will actually effect the outcome our ears can latch on should be easy, right? What chance do cables that measure the SAME have in terms of perceived difference by our ears then? Or are we going to keep calling cables "that which is immeasurable is magic and should not be discounted"? That's up to each individual I guess and their level of tolerance for what is reasonable and what is not.

The "Golden Ear" audiophiles posting on this thread have concentrated their arguments on the validity of blind tests for high end audio. Since the title of this thread specifically asks about "blind comparisons", it is easy for folks to obviate the bigger elephant in the room: physics.

With the physics that we know today, we are able to send satellites to planet Mars and explore it for afar. Using scientific testing and the physics known today it can be shown that many expensive high-end components perform no better than much lower-priced similar products.

Just as an example, I am not aware of a single high-end cable manufacturer that has shown reproducible scientific proof that their cables perform any different that an inexpensive cable. The same applies to many other categories of high-end equipment. Yet, "Golden Ear" audiophiles keep "hearing" stuff and keep denying physics.

Only after physics has been denied is that blind tests come into play. Blind tests present another opportunity for those "Golden Ears" to prove that they can "hear" stuff that cannot be scientifically measured. Not surprisingly, those same "Golden Ears" will find any possible reason to avoid being "blind tested" and will do all that they can to question the validity of blind testing.

Any folk who claims to have a "Golden Ear" is entitled to believe that he can "hear" whatever he thinks he is hearing (even if that person is an old folk with demonstrable hearing issues). However, physics confirms that not all of those "believes" are true.

Originally Posted by a.wayne

If music was only test tones and audiophiles robot Bots you would be correct , as everything would sound the same to everyone....


The work continues , Mars is an easier proposition ...!



Regards

there!! As stated by a full-fledged Golden Ear”audiophile. I rest my case.

Originally Posted by nicoff

The "Golden Ear" audiophiles posting on this thread have concentrated their arguments on the validity of blind tests for high end audio. Since the title of this thread specifically asks about "blind comparisons", it is easy for folks to obviate the bigger elephant in the room: physics.

With the physics that we know today, we are able to send satellites to planet Mars and explore it for afar. Using scientific testing and the physics known today it can be shown that many expensive high-end components perform no better than much lower-priced similar products.

Just as an example, I am not aware of a single high-end cable manufacturer that has shown reproducible scientific proof that their cables perform any different that an inexpensive cable. The same applies to many other categories of high-end equipment. Yet, "Golden Ear" audiophiles keep "hearing" stuff and keep denying physics.

Only after physics has been denied is that blind tests come into play. Blind tests present another opportunity for those "Golden Ears" to prove that they can "hear" stuff that cannot be scientifically measured. Not surprisingly, those same "Golden Ears" will find any possible reason to avoid being "blind tested" and will do all that they can to question the validity of blind testing.

Any folk who claims to have a "Golden Ear" is entitled to believe that he can "hear" whatever he thinks he is hearing (even if that person is an old folk with demonstrable hearing issues). However, physics confirms that not all of those "believes" are true.

How do you know the science as we know today is all there is about science and nothing more? How do you know a method to measure or a scientific understanding of what you term as “golden ears” hear won’t be developed in the future?

And I have yet to see any of you, if everything sounds the same, taking on $169.99 Best Buy cheap amp, $49.99 DAC and using all the free stock cables, while giving up all your gear currently in your system and still claim “I still enjoy my music”.

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

How do you know the science as we know today is all there is about science and nothing more? How do you know a method to measure or a scientific understanding of what you term as “golden ears” hear won’t be developed in the future?

And I have yet to see any of you, if everything sounds the same, taking on $169.99 Best Buy cheap amp, $49.99 DAC and using all the free stock cables, while giving up all your gear currently in your system and still claim “I still enjoy my music”.

Oh the bliss of being unaware (blind test ignorance)... Life can be so much simpler....

Originally Posted by BlueFox

Personally, I have never blind tested anything. However, I have blindly bought all my gear and cables, and I love the resulting system. However, it did take a while to get to my current system since I kept upgrading everything until I got here. Now if Magico would introduce a S7 Mk II speaker I will be done for life.

I have to say, this may actually be a rational approach to a hobby that can quickly become irrational if you give it even a tiny chance to pull you into the rabbit hole.

Buy the gear that appeals to you with speakers that fit your room and don't upset your ears and enjoy the results for what they are.

Upgrading endlessly to gain anything of significance, along an extreme slope of diminishing returns and then having to convince yourself you just spent tens of thousands of dollars so you better hear an improvement, well, most audiophiles are very familiar with that concept

Originally Posted by TheOctopus

Oh the bliss of being unaware (blind test ignorance)... Life can be so much simpler....

The fundamental thing missing in the thread. The naysayers putting the money where the mouth is.

How about show us your $500 systems?

Let’s see the walk, we surely have heard quite a bit of talk.

This raises an interesting point. I can recall orchestral music pretty well in my mind, ie, "play back" a piece with some semblance of the sounds of different instruments. I am also pretty good with geometrical images, but can't conjure up colors at all.
I'm not claiming that my memory is good enough to compare one speaker to another, just that I can remember music pretty well. I agree with the TheOctopus, don't misunderstand my point. I am curious, though, about other peoples memory modes.

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

The fundamental thing missing in the thread. The naysayers putting the money where the mouth is.

How about show us your $500 systems?

Let’s see the walk, we surely have heard quite a bit of talk.

I've done many comparisons over the years comparing many of my own DACs/CDPs/Transports to cheaper mid fi. Last comparison was the Oppo 4K Bluray player UDP203 and then the audiophile version 205 that my friend purchased for himself. I would challenge anyone to do a blind comparison against their favorite DAC.... The OPPO more than stands on its own. Problem being when one is aware they are listening to OPPO, the mind starts to make excuses why it should NOT sound as good. Never fails. That's why the blind test are both good and bad for the hobby....

Originally Posted by Capitol C

This raises an interesting point. I can recall orchestral music pretty well in my mind, ie, "play back" a piece with some semblance of the sounds of different instruments. I am also pretty good with geometrical images, but can't conjure up colors at all.
I'm not claiming that my memory is good enough to compare one speaker to another, just that I can remember music pretty well. I agree with the TheOctopus, don't misunderstand my point. I am curious, though, about other peoples memory modes.

Are you musically trained? I cannot recall anything of any song. I instantly recognize the song, I can evaluate all the audiophile parameters and qualities of any HiFi sound. I am good at that over 30 years but how can I be sure it is any different or better/worse than what I heard a few minutes before when science tells me I cannot? I already posted a video that asks to identify a tone after only a few seconds and I cannot be 100% sure if it is same or different, which is the whole point of it? If you have to guess, then it is NOT a good memory.

There is no WAY I can remember any piece of music note for note, pitch, timbre and other parameters. Only a captured file can be compared on a computer that way. Audiophiles of course ARE computers in their own mind LOL

I took lessons, including theory, for about 10 years, playing classical guitar, but stopped playing a long time ago, but the musical memory came first. I can remember a lot of the (popular) songs from the 60s, that is, I can sing the lyrics (with a not so good singing voice, sadly) and add a poor imitation of the instrumentals, but the original memory is pretty clear in my mind when I (mentally) play it back. (I mostly listen to classical music now.) However, and more to the point of your interesting thread, my memory is NOT good enough for me to listen to my restored AR-3a speakers and then say "Ah-ha! The GoldenEar Triton 2+ speakers downstairs did a better job on the bass, while the midranges are similar." By the way, both systems are driven by midfi electronics, a Carver HR 722 for the vintage speakers, and a Yamaha RS 700 downstairs. (I'll eventually get my AR-AU amp off my workbench to drive the AR speakers.) So I put my audio money where my beliefs are--decent electronics with enough power coupled to high-quality speakers. And the speaker wires are zip cord.

Originally Posted by mep

I believe it does. It was destined to be a clown show from the OP and it didn’t disappoint.

I am not the OP but I would be offended. You are one rude individual with zero to offer in terms of an intelligent conversation.

As far as CLOWNS, let's not go there... Don't do any blind tests OK?

Originally Posted by mep

The OP isn’t to blame because he hasn’t been around audio forums that long to know what he thought was an innocent thread would devolve into what it was destined to be. NOBODY puts together a system based on DBT.

That's exactly what I and half a dozen of my audiophile buddies did over at least a decade back in the 90's. We would evaluate different components and cables in the various systems that we owned. Blind testing was easy with each other's help and in various systems. The hard part was giving up on illusions but that is exactly why NOT ONE of my friends have made changes to their system in over a decade except me. I know all about the "Silence of Cables" OK? The Cable Company and Soundex, one being a cable lending library and the other a Mecca for all the top new and preowned gear in/around Philadelphia and surround areas, were our playground and play we did all through the 90s and early 2000s

By the way, I am thoroughly convinced that the nature of all of this is such that we will hear what we want to hear but only if we get to SEE it as well.

So it may very well be pointless to keep denying that expensive and pretty gear appears to sound better, even if a blind test will reveals a NO better than 50/50 or random guess of a difference between their actual performance.

If it is difficult or impossible to retain a good memory of a sound for more than a brief moment or recreate a song in your memory for an accurate comparison, then certainly looking at what it is you are listening to, will alter your perceived reality as memory is a MALEABLE construct.

It was so with the Violin experiment and it was so even with the Wine Expert experiment... So why would it be different for us audiophiles?

It needs to appeal to the eyes and it will appeal to the ears so long as the quality is such that there are no gross abnormalities with the response from speakers!

Enjoy with all your senses but don't forget to wipe the fingerprints off the shiny boxes or they may start to sound worse

I have done many blind tests. Once I was familiar with the sound characteristics of a component or cable or vibration device I would do blind tests with the same equipment. My blind tests nearly matched my sighted tests. It was not hard to hear differences in blind test for cables, especially digital cables once I was familiar with their sound characteristics. That is my science.

There is a reason you can no longer buy snake oil, it never worked. Cables still sell because they matter.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by TheGemState

I have done many blind tests. Once I was familiar with the sound characteristics of a component or cable or vibration device I would do blind tests with the same equipment. My blind tests nearly matched my sighted tests. It was not hard to hear differences in blind test for cables, especially digital cables once I was familiar with their sound characteristics. That is my science.

There is a reason you can no longer buy snake oil, it never worked. Cables still sell because they matter.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

Cables still sell because of forums. I would love to see your skills put to the test and I say that without trying to offend anyone. The very notion that there is a change will make our minds want to hear a change. Sure, we can all hear a difference when presented with a change... at least that's what our minds expect. Try to pick a cable out of a few others consistently. That's what I and my friends have attempted over decades. Wasn't happening. Alas, picking out the right cable, file resolution, violin... remains an elusive task at best.

In one of the videos above, being presented with the same exact digital file of certain resolution three times in a row but the professional engineers being told to expect a change, resulted in three different results with excellent, detailed and descriptive in audiophile terms, differences. SAME FILE!

That's what the neuro-science videos confirmed. FALSE memories, no bit for bit perfect copies exist in our heard anywhere. Memories are overlays of something we experienced before, not an exact match but good enough to recognize them as an event that took place (recently at least or of significant importance if a long time ago).

Diana Krall sings, you know it. Diana Krall calls on the phone and you will recognize her? Is the quality of the phone to blame or our actual lack of memory for such detailed information? Can you recall the voice of anyone from last week with clarity such that you'd be able to pick it out from a dozen others? NOPE....

How much computing power would be needed for us to remember a musical song/piece with bit for bit accuracy and everything else stored in our heads from the time you are born? Memories fade and how would you even know they are gone or if that ever happened? What happens with age or cognitive deficits? (Well, never mind that because someone will draw politics out of this somehow... )

Originally Posted by TheOctopus

Cables still sell because of forums. I would love to see your skills put to the test and I say that without trying to offend anyone. The very notion that there is a change will make our minds want to hear a change. Sure, we can all hear a difference when presented with a change... at least that's what our minds expect. Try to pick a cable out of a few others consistently. That's what I and my friends have attempted over decades. Wasn't happening. Alas, picking out the right cable, file resolution, violin... remains an elusive task at best.

Now you want to test me. Wow. So either you are calling me a liar or you want to setup "your" test to confirm your assumptions. You have a history of arguing topics on forums that eventually get shut down. I will not debate with you because my experience is real regardless of what you think and you can not argue what I have tested.

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Originally Posted by TheGemState

Now you want to test me. Wow. So either you are calling me a liar or you want to setup "your" test to confirm your assumptions. You have a history of arguing topics on forums that eventually get shut down. I will not debate with you because my experience is real regardless of what you think and you can not argue what I have tested.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

No, I don't want to test you and I told you that I meant no offense. I had a dozen audiophile friends that we tested each other constantly. Myself included. There is no more testing interest as I have had enough of that... One guy kept swearing he hears different pressure in the bicycle tire tubes he used to put under his components and describing exactly what he heard. Isolation was all the rage then, as were the debates about materials racks were made of. Stone vs wood, vs metal, vs various isolation and vibration control tweaks.

Of course we played a practical joke to prove him wrong and deflated them. He went on to use many adjectives he picked up on in the magazines to describe what 14 lbs of pressure sounds like as compared to 10 lbs of pressure under his CAT SL1 preamp he was very proud of...

Thanks but I'll pass. Don't be offended but I've seen and heard it all before.