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  1. #101

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    You should have put quotes around your post because you lifted every word directly from the link you posted. Measuring loudness levels in a new way is not tied to the discussion you were trying to create about dynamic range. You are still confusing loudness levels with dynamic range. Anyone who posts that someone speaking in a monotone voice has more dynamic range than jazz recordings has zero credibility on this topic.
    Then the article has zero credibility. You sir, are a very condescending man indeed. Must not be easy being you on a daily basis?

    I did not confuse loudness for dynamic range. I simply added another interesting topic. You still have not presented me with evidence of a recording of greater than 40dB. You lose.

    Here, I'll put the following in "quotes"

    "Condescending behavior is having or showing a feeling of patronizing superiority; showing that you consider yourself better or more intelligent. It is usually intended to make people feel bad about not knowing or having something and it often works."

    Have a nice day...

  2. #102
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    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Recorded music has limitations... If one is to appreciate the lowest to loudest passages within a reasonable SPL, compression must be used.

    Conclusion:
    The dynamic range of recorded music across genres based on an audio corpus of 1,000 songs was found to be smaller than the dynamic range of monologue speech in quiet. Samples from modern genres such as pop, rap, rock, and schlager generally had the smallest dynamic range, followed by samples from jazz and classical genres such as chamber, choir, orchestra, piano, and opera. Only in the lower frequencies was the dynamic range of speech surpassed by the dynamic range of music, and then only in the case of chamber music, opera, and orchestra.
    As an LP mastering engineer, I've yet to encounter a recording that actually required compression. Its certainly true that if I had simply used compression I'd have been able to get the job out faster. But I've found that if you spend a little more time with the project you can sort out how to master it without any processing.

    BTW anti-vibration is used in more areas of expertise other than audio. That is why anti-vibration stands exist for microscopes. They are also used for telescopes. I hope that the reasons for this are obvious.

  3. #103

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    As an LP mastering engineer, I've yet to encounter a recording that actually required compression. Its certainly true that if I had simply used compression I'd have been able to get the job out faster. But I've found that if you spend a little more time with the project you can sort out how to master it without any processing.

    BTW anti-vibration is used in more areas of expertise other than audio. That is why anti-vibration stands exist for microscopes. They are also used for telescopes. I hope that the reasons for this are obvious.
    Sure, the active vibration isolation platforms are indeed used for scanning microscopes and other sensitive laboratory equipment but not because any of the electronic components can "shift" or change "value" due to vibration.

    I have asked folks before to provide any evidence of vibrations causing a "shift" in electronic components so that the change in an audio signal would then be an obvious answer. I am still waiting to this day.

    I am also aware what the military grade testing procedures for electronic components are and no where does vibration measures and drifting values (other than to the point of mechanical failure of solder joints or components themselves) come into play.

    It would be tough to send missiles, rockets, shuttles, etc to the Moon, Mars, outside our solar system if vibration encountered along the way would cause electronic components to drift and cause erroneous results... It would also be impossible to completely isolate electronic components from experiencing vibrational levels of high G loadings, such as space flight and leaving our planet. We all see what the astronauts go through while leaving our atmosphere.

    It is not a problem for Darpa, NASA, ex Soviet Union tube powered military but it is a problem for the audiophile sitting in his living room and listening to Diana Krall...

    Soviet MIG-25 was still using vacuum tubes for avionics (to be EMP proof in case of that scenario playing out) and experiencing G-Loading and vibrational levels way beyond anything encountered by an audiophile.

    Give me a break guys... There are things that make sense and those that simply go against science and logic. But if one hears it... what does it matter right?


    I am not a recording engineer, I would not argue which recordings do or do not need compression. Common sense tells me that an orchestra is capable of reaching over 115dB and that simply would not be able to be captured by vinyl nor reproduced at home on any grade system without the recording being compressed into a more "digestible" format.

  4. #104

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    "A large orchestra can reach a dynamic range of 60 dB. This means that the maximum level is around 100 dBSPL, which is similar to a disco. If this dynamic range were to be played back without compression in the flat from the previous example, one would have to expect a maximum level of 120 dBSPL!"

  5. #105
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    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Sure, the active vibration isolation platforms are indeed used for scanning microscopes and other sensitive laboratory equipment but not because any of the electronic components can "shift" or change "value" due to vibration.

    I have asked folks before to provide any evidence of vibrations causing a "shift" in electronic components so that the change in an audio signal would then be an obvious answer. I am still waiting to this day.

    I am also aware what the military grade testing procedures for electronic components are and no where does vibration measures and drifting values (other than to the point of mechanical failure of solder joints or components themselves) come into play.

    It would be tough to send missiles, rockets, shuttles, etc to the Moon, Mars, outside our solar system if vibration encountered along the way would cause electronic components to drift and cause erroneous results... It would also be impossible to completely isolate electronic components from experiencing vibrational levels of high G loadings, such as space flight and leaving our planet. We all see what the astronauts go through while leaving our atmosphere.

    It is not a problem for Darpa, NASA, ex Soviet Union tube powered military but it is a problem for the audiophile sitting in his living room and listening to Diana Krall...

    Soviet MIG-25 was still using vacuum tubes for avionics (to be EMP proof in case of that scenario playing out) and experiencing G-Loading and vibrational levels way beyond anything encountered by an audiophile.

    Give me a break guys... There are things that make sense and those that simply go against science and logic. But if one hears it... what does it matter right?


    I am not a recording engineer, I would not argue which recordings do or do not need compression. Common sense tells me that an orchestra is capable of reaching over 115dB and that simply would not be able to be captured by vinyl nor reproduced at home on any grade system without the recording being compressed into a more "digestible" format.
    IMO, vibration isolation is such a grossly inferior methodology I don't even consider it a valid methodology. If, and it is so, the point source for vibrations is our components, the isolation "methodology" traps the vibrations within and causes the universal performance-limiting governor every last playback system is up against. But taken on its face, isolation makes oh so much sense.

    And yes, a vibration's behaviors as well as superior vibration controlling methods are universal and unchanging and hence should be eqaully applicable to all industries wherever performance is paramount. Did I mention that when taken on its face, isolation makes oh so much sense?
    "The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt and extreme forms of vibration mgmt, the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. No, wait. It's all just variations of managing electrical energy" -me

  6. #106

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stehno View Post
    IMO, vibration isolation is such a grossly inferior methodology I don't even consider it a valid methodology. If, and it is so, the point source for vibrations is our components, the isolation "methodology" traps the vibrations within and causes the universal performance-limiting governor every last playback system is up against. But taken on its face, isolation makes oh so much sense.

    And yes, a vibration's behaviors as well as superior vibration controlling methods are universal and unchanging and hence should be eqaully applicable to all industries wherever performance is paramount. Did I mention that when taken on its face, isolation makes oh so much sense?
    Just to be sure I understand your point. Are you implying that my DAC, Preamp or Amp is creating vibration all of themselves? Or do you mean they are affected by the soundwaves (bubbles actually) created by the moving cones of speakers and propagating through the room while affecting and creating vibration for everything in it?

    Do you have any evidence of our components being point sources of vibration? Speakers and mechanical devices such as turntables and tape decks excluded of course which is obvious for any mechanical/moving part.

  7. #107

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!


  8. #108

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Are you implying that my DAC, Preamp or Amp is creating vibration all of themselves?
    This is easy to answer: of course!

    And this is my point. Does (micro) vibrations introduced / captured by the system increase the distortion, and the subjective (objective?) dynamic perception of the recordings? On the other hand, if we (can) remove this garbage, would we have more pleasure in the listening, with a subjective (objective?) perception of a less compressed sound?

  9. #109

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    This is easy to answer: of course!

    And this is my point. Does (micro) vibrations introduced / captured by the system increase the distortion, and the subjective (objective?) dynamic perception of the recordings? On the other hand, if we (can) remove this garbage, would we have more pleasure in the listening, with a subjective (objective?) perception of a less compressed sound?
    It is not easy to answer at all. I will once again ask for evidence of any drift/shift/change in performance by any electronic component within the context of our system. Mechanical/moving devices excluded. If there is no evidence of any drift/shift/change of values/response of components, why would you assume that something has changed due to vibration? Because your ears are telling you that your system sounds better with a maple vs metal or glass shelf?

  10. #110
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    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Just to be sure I understand your point. Are you implying that my DAC, Preamp or Amp is creating vibration all of themselves? Or do you mean they are affected by the soundwaves (bubbles actually) created by the moving cones of speakers and propagating through the room while affecting and creating vibration for everything in it?

    Do you have any evidence of our components being point sources of vibration? Speakers and mechanical devices such as turntables and tape decks excluded of course which is obvious for any mechanical/moving part.
    Let me try this.

    It's important to note that when electrical current flows thru a wire or electronic object, that flow will induce vibrations small or great. For a "great" example, think power supplies.

    1. Air-borne and internally-generated vibration will be captured at the component/speaker and nothing can stop this from happening.

    2. Floor-borne vibrations will not be captured at the component/speaker because once captured they become the point source and energy's behavior is such that it seeks first and foremost to travel away from its point source. IOW, since the components/speaker are the point source, the flow of their unwanted energy is directed toward the floor - provided they are given such an exit path (not trapped within).

    Regardless of which source(s) of vibrations are captured at the component/speaker, once captured the component/speaker becomes the point source.

    The isolation method especially the "superior" versions will attempt to ensure that unwanted energy remains trapped within and hence, release its energy within.

    That should do it. In a nutshell. Did I mention that on its face, the isolation methodology makes oh so much sense?
    "The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt and extreme forms of vibration mgmt, the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. No, wait. It's all just variations of managing electrical energy" -me

  11. #111

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    When Ralph speaks, you should listen. You are welcome.

  12. #112

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stehno View Post
    Let me try this.

    It's important to note that when electrical current flows thru a wire or electronic object, that flow will induce vibrations small or great. For a "great" example, think power supplies.

    1. Air-borne and internally-generated vibration will be captured at the component/speaker and nothing can stop this from happening.

    2. Floor-borne vibrations will not be captured at the component/speaker because once captured they become the point source and energy's behavior is such that it seeks first and foremost to travel away from its point source. IOW, since the components/speaker are the point source, the flow of their unwanted energy is directed toward the floor - provided they are given such an exit path (not trapped within).

    Regardless of which source(s) of vibrations are captured at the component/speaker, once captured the component/speaker becomes the point source.

    The isolation method especially the "superior" versions will attempt to ensure that unwanted energy remains trapped within and hence, release its energy within.

    That should do it. In a nutshell. Did I mention that on its face, the isolation methodology makes oh so much sense?
    The earth spinning on its axis and background micro vibrations is also a source. Where is the proof any of it changes sound? You are speaking of controlling vibrations but offer no proof that it makes a difference. It’s like a mousetrap for a fictional or folklore pest?

  13. #113

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    I will once again ask for evidence of any drift/shift/change in performance by any electronic component within the context of our system.
    Because your ears are telling you that...?
    You want "keyboard proofs", where everyone writes what they want.
    Of course, in the final analysis, it is my ears that tell me that.
    And I am not alone. In fact, in the text that served as the motto for this post says

    Self-induced vibrations are generated within the component either by mechanical devices (CD drives, transports, etc.), and smaller micro-vibrations generated by transformers.

  14. #114
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    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Gentleman, let's keep it civil please.
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  15. #115

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    You want "keyboard proofs", where everyone writes what they want.
    Of course, in the final analysis, it is my ears that tell me that.
    And I am not alone. In fact, in the text that served as the motto for this post says

    Self-induced vibrations are generated within the component either by mechanical devices (CD drives, transports, etc.), and smaller micro-vibrations generated by transformers.
    Right, so in the absence of any proof, it takes us right back to the fact that our echoic or audible memory is 2-4 seconds and that is a scientific fact. Besides, if vibration isolation has any effect, then there would be a vector by which one can fine tune the response of whatever component can possibly make that happen. Why would it always be for the best only (as is a list always the claim in audio).

    One way to prove it would be an anechoic chamber, a quality a microphone and a resolving enough system with speakers to capture the resulting sound from the components being on a shaker table... Let’s see anything change. If the recording analysis does not show a change from the sound coming out of the speakers, then it is not existent for your ears either. Who is willing to put their product to the test?

    I’d love to be proven wrong but until then, I shall remain a skeptic and yes, I have played around with just about every every form of a tweak from A-Z over 30 plus years. So it’s not for the lack of trying.

  16. #116
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    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
    A conductor moving in a magnetic field will create a voltage proportional to the length of the conductor, the strength of the magnetic field, and the velocity the conductor is moving through the magnetic field.

    emf=l*h*v

    This is Faraday’s Law.
    l=length of the conductor in meters
    h=field strength in Tesla’s
    v=velocity of the conductor in meters/sec.

    The earth’s magnetic field is about 0.00005 Tesla.
    A 1m cable vibrating with a velocity of 1 m/s would create. 50 uV signal which is actually well above the noise floor of a good system.

    I need to do the calculus on just what kind of displacement that is at 1 kHz but it isn’t very much.

    Sorry to geek out on you but I am a believer in the basic laws of physics.
    I said I would finish the analysis so here it is, with a little background. I confused some folks with the 1 m/sec comment, but remember that is a velocity, not an amplitude.

    I used a sine wave in the analysis to make the math simple. Arbitrary waveforms can be analyzed using Fourier analysis. Derivation is in the attachment.

    The amplitude A of a vibration needed to create a velocity v of the same conductor is simply A=v/w where w= angular velocity = 2*Pi*f where f = frequency of the vibration.

    So, at 1 kHz and a velocity of 1 m/sec we get an amplitude of 160 microns. About the width of a human hair. Slightly larger than an RCH, probably about the same width as a muggeseggele. (Look it up)

    Is this audible? I don’t know and it’s not my purpose here to make that call. Believers will believe, non-believers won’t - pretty cut and dried.

    Suffice it to say that a small amount of movement in a wire is enough to create a voltage that will turn your beautiful 24 bit signal (really only 21 bits but that’s a subject for another day) into a 14 bit one.


    Somebody asked about vibration effects on other electronic components. Sure, there are plenty. Common ceramic capacitors with high Q dielectrics like X7R and COG exhibit piezoelectric properties and so can create voltages under vibration. This is especially true of MLCC SMT capacitors. Other large film and foil capacitors will also exhibit value modulation under vibration. The Crystal oscillators that are so foundational to digital audio are very susceptible to even small vibrations, which modulate their output frequency.
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  17. #117
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    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    The earth spinning on its axis and background micro vibrations is also a source. Where is the proof any of it changes sound? You are speaking of controlling vibrations but offer no proof that it makes a difference. It’s like a mousetrap for a fictional or folklore pest?
    You neglected to mention that the earth is revolving at the Equator at 1000 mph, the earth is orbiting the sun at 66k mph, and the galaxy is traveling thru the universe at 450k mph. Ever hear of the phrase, still waters? Think that phrase is folklore? Please pour yourself a glass of water and let it settle on the counter and then study it closely for any visual movement. Then again, nothing is entirely stable, is it?

    I should note again that it's impossible to isolate any ojbect from all sources of vibration simultaneously. And if one successfully isolates vibrations from one source, then inherently the vibrations from at least one other source remain trapped.

    But the bottom line is, unwanted energy can never be isolated or squashed but it can be redirected before it induces its catastrophic harm. Exactly like lightning and a lightning rod, grounding wire, and grounding spike.

    BTW, I've already provided a few in-room videos but remember that you're a music lover first.



    The folklore lies with the vibration isolation method. In fact, when taken to the extreme, the resonant energy transfer methodology (the one true methodology) I employ not only exposes the vibration isolation method for what it is not, it also potentially exposes about 10 other very popular folklore in high-end audio.

    I have better examples but in this video which was already posted, the in-room volume levels were about 104db peak. Most other playback systems start to fall apart long before reaching that volume level. The format is DVD - roughly the equivalent to the supposedly inferior Redbook format. The playback system itself i.e. the source, the amps, subwoofer, and speakers combined retailed new for $11k - which is chump change by today's standards (excluding the $17k invested in extreme forms of electrical and mechanical energy mgmt). But compare this level of musicality to any playback system at any cost. Also, there is no active linestage and yet the dynamics are perhaps more natural and realistic than any active linestage could offer.

    Even though this in-room video is a counterfeit of a counterfeit of a counterfeit of the original live performance and you may be listening to it via headphones, listen closely and carefully consider whether your listening perspecive is in the listening room or somewhere / anywhere inside the concert hall. That's because soooo much more music info remains audible above the system's drastically lowered noise floor rather than inaudible below a much raise noise floor. In this video you should be hearing volumes more of the live peformance's ambient info (the lowest of all low-level detail) at the speaker that vibration isolation makes inaudible. I'm guessing you'd be pretty hard-pressed to point me toward another playback system at any price with this level of musicality, dynamics, and sense of realism especially at these volume levels.

    I should also note that my just barely reasonble enough listening room contains no acoustic treatments or bass traps which is more folklore. IOW, with the vibration mgmt methodology I employ so much more music info remains audible at the speaker (due to a drastically lowered system noise floor) that most/all room acoustic anomalies are so completely overshadowed, that the room is essentially gone and now your listening perspective should be somewhere / anywhere in the recording hall. This applies to most any inferior-engineered recording including those from the 50's, 60's, etc.

    Lastly, I care zero about floor-borne vibrations which is just more folklore required for isolaiton folklore to exist and have purpose. My subwoofer is about 2ft to the right of my custom racking system in the vdieo. Both are coupled firmly to the subflooring and may even share the same floor joist. That's how much I care about floor-borne vibrations and my routine listening near / at live performance volume levels is just more proof that I don't care about floor-borne vibrations. I also don't care about air-borne vibrations or at least I don't think I care. What I do care about is the multitude of internally-generated vibrations or resonant energy induced by electric current flow that establishes a playback system's much raised noise floor perhaps the moment we push the power on button. The one energy type nobody else seems to care about.

    And be sure to crank up the volume to ensure you get the fullest effect.
    "The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt and extreme forms of vibration mgmt, the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. No, wait. It's all just variations of managing electrical energy" -me

  18. #118

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Then the article has zero credibility. You sir, are a very condescending man indeed. Must not be easy being you on a daily basis?

    I did not confuse loudness for dynamic range. I simply added another interesting topic. You still have not presented me with evidence of a recording of greater than 40dB. You lose.

    Here, I'll put the following in "quotes"

    "Condescending behavior is having or showing a feeling of patronizing superiority; showing that you consider yourself better or more intelligent. It is usually intended to make people feel bad about not knowing or having something and it often works."

    Have a nice day...
    Now you are confusing someone that points out obvious errors with statements you were trying to present as “facts” with condescension. It’s hopeless to have a meaningful dialog with you. Uncle.
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  19. #119

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Now you are confusing someone that points out obvious errors with statements you were trying to present as “facts” with condescension. It’s hopeless to have a meaningful dialog with you. Uncle.
    Remember, I only quoted an article written by scientists involved with the topic. They are the ones who compiled 1000 pieces of music to compare to conversational speech and compare/contrast dynamic range of such. You said it had "zero credibility" undermining other people's work without offering an ounce of proof to the contrary. That really IS condescending in my book.

  20. #120

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by W9TR View Post


    I said I would finish the analysis so here it is, with a little background. I confused some folks with the 1 m/sec comment, but remember that is a velocity, not an amplitude.

    I used a sine wave in the analysis to make the math simple. Arbitrary waveforms can be analyzed using Fourier analysis. Derivation is in the attachment.

    The amplitude A of a vibration needed to create a velocity v of the same conductor is simply A=v/w where w= angular velocity = 2*Pi*f where f = frequency of the vibration.

    So, at 1 kHz and a velocity of 1 m/sec we get an amplitude of 160 microns. About the width of a human hair. Slightly larger than an RCH, probably about the same width as a muggeseggele. (Look it up)

    Is this audible? I don’t know and it’s not my purpose here to make that call. Believers will believe, non-believers won’t - pretty cut and dried.

    Suffice it to say that a small amount of movement in a wire is enough to create a voltage that will turn your beautiful 24 bit signal (really only 21 bits but that’s a subject for another day) into a 14 bit one.


    Somebody asked about vibration effects on other electronic components. Sure, there are plenty. Common ceramic capacitors with high Q dielectrics like X7R and COG exhibit piezoelectric properties and so can create voltages under vibration. This is especially true of MLCC SMT capacitors. Other large film and foil capacitors will also exhibit value modulation under vibration. The Crystal oscillators that are so foundational to digital audio are very susceptible to even small vibrations, which modulate their output frequency.
    Tom, as I have mentioned it before in this thread, this can all be easily proved/disproved. Shaker table, anechoic chamber, microphone, software, compare signals coming out the speakers. No difference, zero effect, difference, then some components are changing values due to vibration and thus would benefit from some form of vibrational control or better choice of electronic components. I am aware of the piezo electric effect of "some" capacitors by the way but would never think that the minute vibrations of an audio piece in a listening room would be enough to even register a difference in measurement. I have never looked into it beyond that. Cool analysis, would be good to see it proved! You may be on to something with this.

  21. #121

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stehno View Post

    Lastly, I care zero about floor-borne vibrations which is just more folklore. My subwoofer is about 2ft to the right of my custom racking system in the vdieo. Both are coupled firmly to the subflooring and may even share the same floor joist. That's how much I care about floor-borne vibrations and my routine listening near / at live performance volume levels is just more proof that I don't care about floor-borne vibrations. I also don't care about air-borne vibrations or at least I don't think I care. What I do care about is the multitude of internally-generated vibrations or resonant energy induced by electric current flow that establishes a playback system's much raised noise floor perhaps the moment we push the power on button. The one energy type nobody else seems to care about.

    And be sure to crank up the volume to ensure you get the fullest effect.
    Stehno, that was a lot of information in one post. I quoted the last paragraph. What do you propose to do about the internal vibration of components if you see it as a problem? Do manufacturers not do enough in your opinion?

  22. #122
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    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Stehno, that was a lot of information in one post. I quoted the last paragraph. What do you propose to do about the internal vibration of components if you see it as a problem? Do manufacturers not do enough in your opinion?
    Serge, I do what I can to allow the unwanted resonant energy to travel away from its point source as expediently as possible. And I propose others do likewise. Well, unless I don't like them.

    Mfg'ers for the most part do nothing about it because I suspect like others they know nothing about it. Gotta' remember that the entire world is committed to the "isolation" methodology because it's just so much common sense. Actually, it's worse than that. Nobody does nothing about it which implies everybody is doing something about it and that means by their designs, construction, materials, and executions they most always make the situation worse not better. Even in the case of a mfg'er's stock footers, their remedies will most always and unknowingly trap the unwanted resonant energy within the component so somebody like me has to work around their significant shortcomings. And it ain't so easy sometimes. But if you think about, it's pretty difficult to remedy a problem we don't even realize exists or remedy a problem that flies in the face of "common sense" that's been handed down over the generations.

    But the bottom line is, vibration isolation with its focus primarily on floor-borne vibrations and the remedy is to isolate sensitive components from the floor, is nothing but folklore. But common sense dictates that speakers (and the earth) vibrate and if their vibrations enter the floor, then they're coming straight for my components in my rack and they must be stopped. Common sense right? Sure. Except that floor-borne vibrations were never the performance issue.

    Even when it comes to turntables which are a nightmare to remedy with their layer upon layer of isolation. With TT enthusiasts there's always the typical story of one hosting a party and a 400 lbs. guest dancing in front of the TT causes the stylus to jump 14 grooves and the host freaks out. What's the solution? Common sense dictates isolation. And guess what? It works. Now the 400 lbs. guest brings their 300 lbs. friends to the party and can dance in front of the TT 'til the cows come home and the stylus no longer jumps a single groove. This is what some call performance in high-end audio.

    What they don't realize is that the 400 lbs. guest dancing in front of the TT has zero to do with vibrations but rather has everything to do with shock and impact which is an entirely different subject matter and has no place in high-end audio. Besides, shock and impact requires absorbtion (think isolation) which has zero to do with real performance. Well, except for TT's used at parties.

    IMO, it is exactly this typical story that popularized vibration isolation in high-end audio. Golly, if isolation worked for George's TT down the street, maybe I could try hanging my 150 lbs. amplifier from the rafters using bungee cords which may or may not impact performance good or bad ever so slighty. But as usual, this "common sense" just starts flying everywhere.

    And yes, I'm well aware that some will claim to hear genuine improvements and in some cases they may but the improvements are never large. But that's a whole nuther story.

    BTW, I really do try to steer clear of most vibration mgmt threads as they usually become bottomless rabbit holes.
    "The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt and extreme forms of vibration mgmt, the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. No, wait. It's all just variations of managing electrical energy" -me

  23. #123
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    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stehno View Post
    Serge, I do what I can to allow the unwanted resonant energy to travel away from its point source as expediently as possible. And I propose others do likewise. Well, unless I don't like them.

    Mfg'ers for the most part do nothing about it because I suspect like others they know nothing about it. Gotta' remember that the entire world is committed to the "isolation" methodology because it's just so much common sense. Actually, it's worse than that. Nobody does nothing about it which implies everybody is doing something about it and that means by their designs, construction, materials, and executions they most always make the situation worse not better. Even in the case of a mfg'er's stock footers, their remedies will most always and unknowingly trap the unwanted resonant energy within the component so somebody like me has to work around their significant shortcomings. And it ain't so easy sometimes. But if you think about, it's pretty difficult to remedy a problem we don't even realize exists or remedy a problem that flies in the face of "common sense" that's been handed down over the generations.

    But the bottom line is, vibration isolation with its focus primarily on floor-borne vibrations and the remedy is to isolate sensitive components from the floor, is nothing but folklore. But common sense dictates that speakers (and the earth) vibrate and if their vibrations enter the floor, then they're coming straight for my components in my rack and they must be stopped. Common sense right? Sure. Except that floor-borne vibrations were never the performance issue.

    Even when it comes to turntables which are a nightmare to remedy with their layer upon layer of isolation. With TT enthusiasts there's always the typical story of one hosting a party and a 400 lbs. guest dancing in front of the TT causes the stylus to jump 14 grooves and the host freaks out. What's the solution? Common sense dictates isolation. And guess what? It works. Now the 400 lbs. guest brings their 300 lbs. friends to the party and can dance in front of the TT 'til the cows come home and the stylus no longer jumps a single groove. This is what some call performance in high-end audio.

    What they don't realize is that the 400 lbs. guest dancing in front of the TT has zero to do with vibrations but rather has everything to do with shock and impact which is an entirely different subject matter and has no place in high-end audio. Besides, shock and impact requires absorbtion (think isolation) which has zero to do with real performance. Well, except for TT's used at parties.

    IMO, it is exactly this typical story that popularized vibration isolation in high-end audio. Golly, if isolation worked for George's TT down the street, maybe I could try hanging my 150 lbs. amplifier from the rafters using bungee cords which may or may not impact performance good or bad ever so slighty. But as usual, this "common sense" just starts flying everywhere.

    And yes, I'm well aware that some will claim to hear genuine improvements and in some cases they may but the improvements are never large. But that's a whole nuther story.

    BTW, I really do try to steer clear of most vibration mgmt threads as they usually become bottomless rabbit holes.
    I've read a number of your posts on this and another forum and am still not clear specifically what you are proposing be done with vibrations and what products and/or methods should be used. You seem to imply that we are all doing it wrong, but I'm not sure what right is in your opinion.
    Morgan

    NEW SYSTEM UNDER CONSTRUCTION

  24. #124
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    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Sure, the active vibration isolation platforms are indeed used for scanning microscopes and other sensitive laboratory equipment but not because any of the electronic components can "shift" or change "value" due to vibration.

    I have asked folks before to provide any evidence of vibrations causing a "shift" in electronic components so that the change in an audio signal would then be an obvious answer. I am still waiting to this day.
    I apologize for my remarks in advance.

    Your notion that electronic parts are unaffected by vibration is rubbish and obvious nonsense. That is why no-one has provided you any 'evidence'- where do you even start?? Anyone that has ever serviced electronics equipment is well acquainted with this issue- it has a word even: 'microphonic'

    So I have to assume your contact with audio in general is limited, since microphonics is a well-known issue! Mercury Records famously put out a recording of the Minneapolis Symphony (Sythian Suite, Love of Three Oranges) on which a microphonic tube can clearly be heard along with the orchestra.

    Ampex isomerically isolated the circuit boards in their 351 electronics to help reduce microphonics. Having serviced electronics since 1974 on a professional basis, I've encounter opamps that were microphonic as well- this phenomena is not limited to tubes, and it affects resistors and capacitors as well. As a manufacturer, we learned early on to avoid hermetically sealed Teflon capacitors because they could ring like a bell. Piezo electric transducers of course rely on microphonics for their MO.

    Here's a link, since this word is apparently new to you:
    Microphonics - Wikipedia

  25. #125

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    I apologize for my remarks in advance.

    Your notion that electronic parts are unaffected by vibration is rubbish and obvious nonsense. That is why no-one has provided you any 'evidence'- where do you even start?? Anyone that has ever serviced electronics equipment is well acquainted with this issue- it has a word even: 'microphonic'

    So I have to assume your contact with audio in general is limited, since microphonics is a well-known issue! Mercury Records famously put out a recording of the Minneapolis Symphony (Sythian Suite, Love of Three Oranges) on which a microphonic tube can clearly be heard along with the orchestra.

    Ampex isomerically isolated the circuit boards in their 351 electronics to help reduce microphonics. Having serviced electronics since 1974 on a professional basis, I've encounter opamps that were microphonic as well- this phenomena is not limited to tubes, and it affects resistors and capacitors as well. As a manufacturer, we learned early on to avoid hermetically sealed Teflon capacitors because they could ring like a bell. Piezo electric transducers of course rely on microphonics for their MO.

    Here's a link, since this word is apparently new to you:
    Microphonics - Wikipedia

    Well, I for one serviced a lot of electronic equipment. I have an electronics degree (not an engineer). In fact I worked on computers and troubleshooting and repair down to component level back in the days of the IBM PC and XT and when the integrated circuit boards were actually fixable, not disposable... I know my way around the lab equipment, a heat gun, a freeze spray and a soldering iron.... Like I said, "vibration" was never part of any troubleshooting or repair other than in anger... The heat gun and freeze spray were much more often utilized to weed out those pesky "intermittent problems" related to thermal instability or defects of ICs and other components.

    So in a nutshell, I know what equipment and tools were used for troubleshooting. An occasional gentle "tap" as a test for bad connection would be the extent of "testing for vibration".

    Tube microphonics is a well known phenomena and it typically applies to small signal tubes going bad. Like I said earlier, the MIG-25 used vacuum tubes for decades for its avionics and that aircraft was subject to all kinds of vibrations and G-loadings. Give me a break with your tube microphonics and Diana Krall's voice changing for you. Don't make me laugh...

    Some capacitors as Tom mentioned above are indeed exhibiting piezo-electric effect. How much vibration is needed, I have no idea. What effect that has on any signal is unknown to me. If you have that info, please share. Any other evidence of vibration control directly measurable and evident, would also be appreciated. As it stands right now, this is in no way better than the "un-demonstrable" effect of audio cables...

  26. #126

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    How about reading some "real" world challenges for electronic circuit from the serious people of "NASA"

    What do they do about 9 million pounds of thrust and dynamic pyrotechnic shock that causes high frequency/high magnitude stress shockwaves that rip through the rocket on its way to outer space...

    The Harsh Environmental Conditions of a Spacecraft and the Hazards Posed to the Electronics
    The first hurdle for space electronics to overcome is the vibration imposed by the launch vehicle. The demands placed on a rocket and its payload during launch are severe. Rocket launchers generate extreme noise and vibration. There are literally thousands of things that can go wrong and result in a ball of flame. When a satellite separates from the rocket in space, large shocks occur in the satellite’s body structure. Pyrotechnic shock is the dynamic structural shock that occurs when an explosion occurs on a structure. Pyroshock is the response of the structure to high frequency, high magnitude stress waves that propagate throughout the structure as a result of an explosive charge, like the ones used in a satellite ejection or the separation of two stages of a multistage rocket. Pyroshock exposure can damage circuit boards, short electrical components, or cause all sorts of other issues. Understanding the launch environment provides a greater appreciation for the shock and vibration requirements, and inspections imposed on electronic components designed for use in space level applications.

    Do those vibrations cause any deviation from the norm for the electronic circuits? Can we ever get to Mars if we can't even listen to music without vibration isolation?


    Challenges for Electronic Circuits in Space Applications | Analog Devices.

  27. #127
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    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    ...

    So in a nutshell, I know what equipment and tools were used for troubleshooting. An occasional gentle "tap" as a test for bad connection would be the extent of "testing for vibration".

    ....
    That reminds of a "meaningful dialogue" I engaged in with a well-known component designer back around 2013. As he was trying to put me in my place regarding my lack of vibration mgmt experience, he wanted everybody to know that he tested for vibrations by flicking a finger on a component's top plate and called it his "ding test." Common sense rears its ugly head again, right?

    Anyway, he was none too fond when I suggested he call it his "ding-a-ling test".

    But more importantly, we got into a rather nasty knock-down-drag-out discussion and eventually he admitted that every last one of his designs as well as all others' designs contained at least one serious unknown flaw for which his professionally calibrated measuring equipment was of no value.

    He was also none too fond when I suggested his designs (which I've never listened to) most likely contained no such serious unknown flaws whatsoever but rather his designs were simply incomplete - as were all others' designs.

    I like to think I've matured since then. But maybe not.

    But seriously, that is one way to look at every component and speaker. Their designs are simply incomplete without a superior foundation and as such they can only perform closer to their base levels rather than their optimal levels.
    "The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt and extreme forms of vibration mgmt, the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. No, wait. It's all just variations of managing electrical energy" -me

  28. #128

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Oh, no..... Mr.Musk... we don't know how to tell you this but the rocket is lost somewhere between Jupiter and Saturn... Turns out the new batch of resistors were slightly microphonic causing gross errors in navigational thrust correction sequences...

    Well damn... I thought I sent out a memo that some of our Model 3 Tesla were making errors in autonomous driving control due to the bad road conditions, pot holes and those new ceramic capacitors going Piezo on us... Damn Michigan winters, bloody potholes and vibrations. Here we all thought the GPS signal in space has a global average user range rate error (URRE) of ≤0.006 m/sec but we never took the potholes and bad roads into account... One Model 3 is still stuck in the side of that old brick building and the owner is threatening to sue Tesla...

    Voice from the back of the control room...

    Hehehe... That could have all been avoided if you guys only listened to what I was telling you about my new footers under my preamp while listening to Led Zeppelin but NO... you guys always just make fun of me..




  29. #129

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Not going to find harsher conditions for electronic devices than space flight. Go ahead and peruse the article. You will see all kinds of concerns, including Soft and Hard Errors induced by radiation exposure in space, temperature extremes, even the Tin Whiskers phenomena... But do a search on "microphonics" and "vibration" induced errors or glitches in that article and you come up empty handed..

    Sorry but I trust Analog Devices and NASA when it comes to credible information more than any audiophile. Nothing personal guys.

    Challenges for Electronic Circuits in Space Applications | Analog Devices

  30. #130
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    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Not going to find harsher conditions for electronic devices than space flight. Go ahead and peruse the article. You will see all kinds of concerns, including Soft and Hard Errors induced by radiation exposure in space, temperature extremes, even the Tin Whiskers phenomena... But do a search on "microphonics" and "vibration" induced errors or glitches in that article and you come up empty handed..

    Sorry but I trust Analog Devices and NASA when it comes to credible information more than any audiophile. Nothing personal guys.

    Challenges for Electronic Circuits in Space Applications | Analog Devices
    I take it my comment about the designer's ding-a-ling test hit a little too close to home? It wasn't intended for you. My apologies.

    I guess I have matured since the last time that ding-a-ling test was mentioned.
    "The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt and extreme forms of vibration mgmt, the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. No, wait. It's all just variations of managing electrical energy" -me

  31. #131

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stehno View Post
    I take it my comment about the designer's ding-a-ling test hit a little too close to home? It wasn't intended for you. My apologies.

    I guess I have matured since the last time that ding-a-ling test was mentioned.
    No worries, I did not take it personally and I do not get offended that easily.

    Side note, I have walked away from vibrations in my audio by streaming...

    The notion of the turntable "dragging" its stylus to the point of heating up and nearly melting vinyl as a mode of normal operation, the tape "dragging" itself across the heads and the CD spinner creating vibrations by spinning itself at 500 to 200 rpm depending on the reading sector is just so.... well vibrationally lame.

    Streaming is modern, efficient, silent and so "vibration free"...

    Perhaps that is the reason I spend a lot of time listening to music and zero time on seeking vibrational control gizmos? Discussions are fun though but do create a bit of vibration as I type all this out on the keyboard and my Roon core is on my main PC so that may affect my music fidelity. No, not really....

  32. #132
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    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Not going to find harsher conditions for electronic devices than space flight. Go ahead and peruse the article. You will see all kinds of concerns, including Soft and Hard Errors induced by radiation exposure in space, temperature extremes, even the Tin Whiskers phenomena... But do a search on "microphonics" and "vibration" induced errors or glitches in that article and you come up empty handed..

    Sorry but I trust Analog Devices and NASA when it comes to credible information more than any audiophile. Nothing personal guys.

    Challenges for Electronic Circuits in Space Applications | Analog Devices
    Well you've not managed to debunk anything with your comments although you've made a good case for trolling.

    If you've not experienced microphonics in parts other than tubes as a technician then you are either very lucky or very inexperienced. We use extensive damping techniques in our preamps and the effect of them is easily measured. And obviously audible. If you wish to continue with this sort of pointless exercise, take it to a forum that isn't involved with high end audio and people there will think a great deal more of your comments.

    Now to be clear I'd love it if we didn't have to deal with microphonic issues in parts. It would make our assemblies go much easier. But they are a fact of life. You can be assured that in aerospace applications the parts used are meeting a variety of specification including microphonic issues. So its a simple explanation (Occam's Razor) that you are trying to conflate apples and oranges. So yeah, you can trust NASA on this- why not ask them rather than presume that these things don't exist at all? There is a rather obvious logical fallacy at play here. False Dilemma comes to mind. 'Nothing personal guys' and then rolling your eyes rather suggests it is personal. Please stop trolling this forum.

  33. #133

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    Well you've not managed to debunk anything with your comments although you've made a good case for trolling.

    If you've not experienced microphonics in parts other than tubes as a technician then you are either very lucky or very inexperienced. We use extensive damping techniques in our preamps and the effect of them is easily measured. And obviously audible. If you wish to continue with this sort of pointless exercise, take it to a forum that isn't involved with high end audio and people there will think a great deal more of your comments.

    Now to be clear I'd love it if we didn't have to deal with microphonic issues in parts. It would make our assemblies go much easier. But they are a fact of life. You can be assured that in aerospace applications the parts used are meeting a variety of specification including microphonic issues. So its a simple explanation (Occam's Razor) that you are trying to conflate apples and oranges. So yeah, you can trust NASA on this- why not ask them rather than presume that these things don't exist at all? There is a rather obvious logical fallacy at play here. False Dilemma comes to mind. 'Nothing personal guys' and then rolling your eyes rather suggests it is personal. Please stop trolling this forum.
    It’s hopeless Ralph. He’s getting to be a clone of Ethan Winer.
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  34. #134
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    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    It’s hopeless Ralph. He’s getting to be a clone of Ethan Winer.
    Per chance, you don't mean THE Audio Expert, do ya?
    "The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt and extreme forms of vibration mgmt, the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. No, wait. It's all just variations of managing electrical energy" -me

  35. #135

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    If you've not experienced microphonics in parts other than tubes as a technician then you are either very lucky or very inexperienced.
    Octopus is very angry with the audio. Someone promised him nirvana and he spend a lot of money on "top" systems and never found it.
    As a consolation I also haven't found it yet but I still try and I still believe that it exists.
    But Octopus wants us all to give up ...

  36. #136
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    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stehno View Post
    Per chance, you don't mean THE Audio Expert, do ya?
    You mean the one that denies the existence of Ohm's Law? I only say that because I saw someone with that name on a YT video that claimed that power cords couldn't make a difference in audio products, but apparently had never tried measuring anything about them. Power cords obey Ohm's Law like everything else in electronics...

    Audiophile Guru Syndrome (AGS): when only the audio monologue from the Guru can be trusted; all else is hearsay, anecdote and possibly blasphemy.

  37. #137
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    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    You mean the one that denies the existence of Ohm's Law? I only say that because I saw someone with that name on a YT video that claimed that power cords couldn't make a difference in audio products, but apparently had never tried measuring anything about them. Power cords obey Ohm's Law like everything else in electronics...

    Audiophile Guru Syndrome (AGS): when only the audio monologue from the Guru can be trusted; all else is hearsay, anecdote and possibly blasphemy.
    Nope. Must be a different The Audio Expert. The Audio Expert I'm thinking of used to claim that all components were identical and all cables were identical as all maintained the fidelity of the input signal and that if we weren't hearing the live performance via our playback systems, the problem had to be with recording microphone placements during the recording session.

    Rats. I was kinda' hoping there wasn't more than one The Audio Expert.
    "The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt and extreme forms of vibration mgmt, the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. No, wait. It's all just variations of managing electrical energy" -me

  38. #138

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Well, I for one serviced a lot of electronic equipment. I have an electronics degree (not an engineer). In fact I worked on computers and troubleshooting and repair down to component level back in the days of the IBM PC and XT and when the integrated circuit boards were actually fixable, not disposable... I know my way around the lab equipment, a heat gun, a freeze spray and a soldering iron.... Like I said, "vibration" was never part of any troubleshooting or repair other than in anger... The heat gun and freeze spray were much more often utilized to weed out those pesky "intermittent problems" related to thermal instability or defects of ICs and other components.

    So in a nutshell, I know what equipment and tools were used for troubleshooting. An occasional gentle "tap" as a test for bad connection would be the extent of "testing for vibration".

    Tube microphonics is a well known phenomena and it typically applies to small signal tubes going bad. Like I said earlier, the MIG-25 used vacuum tubes for decades for its avionics and that aircraft was subject to all kinds of vibrations and G-loadings. Give me a break with your tube microphonics and Diana Krall's voice changing for you. Don't make me laugh...

    Some capacitors as Tom mentioned above are indeed exhibiting piezo-electric effect. How much vibration is needed, I have no idea. What effect that has on any signal is unknown to me. If you have that info, please share. Any other evidence of vibration control directly measurable and evident, would also be appreciated. As it stands right now, this is in no way better than the "un-demonstrable" effect of audio cables...
    I have already warned you that when Ralph speaks you had better listen. If you keep on speaking you "might" start to sound silly.

  39. #139

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    Octopus is very angry with the audio. Someone promised him nirvana and he spend a lot of money on "top" systems and never found it.
    As a consolation I also haven't found it yet but I still try and I still believe that it exists.
    But Octopus wants us all to give up ...
    You got me figured out all wrong. I actually did find nirvana. It is called not being obsessed with things that can neither be measured meaningfully nor proved properly and a whole bunch of pseudo-science crap that no one but the audiophile community can ever take seriously. Tube microphonics are real, I've experienced that and still listened to music with microphonic tubes. The world did not end. I am not about to tap my tubes before every listening session... When I feel they have reached their useful life span, I will replace them all in one shot.



    I take music seriously, I listen to music a lot. That's the main point of this hobby for me. That's my nirvana. My nirvana does not require $300k speakers, power conditioners and fancy power cords but if you are convinced that it does, by all means, spend away and keep spending and upgrading. Yes, I have been around the block with this hobby and owned some serious gear and built a few dedicated rooms for all that sonic horsepower. It was fun and I walked away having formulated much deeper understanding of what it is I want out of this hobby. Took me 30 years or so but I'm all set now.

    At some point, everyone realizes that chasing absolutes that are undefined, highly subjective to begin with and do not have a clear bullseye on the target to aim for, well, it just serves for a lot of audio forum babbling, like lunatics, trying to prove to each other your version of a system is superior to others. Just one thread on internet switches is enough to make me cringe.


    Not to mention that even on a basic physiological level, we all hear different. Some people have much fresher ears, some rely on hearing aids. It's all good, they are still in the hobby for whatever aspect of it brings them pleasure. Nothing wrong with that.

    Have fun chasing your vibrational gremlins... Don't forget to have at least some fun with music between all the bouts of sympathetic and unsympathetic resonance in your listening room.

    I'm out. No need to go further with this topic for me as it proves nothing and everyone walks away with their own conclusions. Hopefully no feathers were ruffled beyond repair.

  40. #140

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    Well you've not managed to debunk anything with your comments although you've made a good case for trolling.

    If you've not experienced microphonics in parts other than tubes as a technician then you are either very lucky or very inexperienced. We use extensive damping techniques in our preamps and the effect of them is easily measured. And obviously audible. If you wish to continue with this sort of pointless exercise, take it to a forum that isn't involved with high end audio and people there will think a great deal more of your comments.

    Now to be clear I'd love it if we didn't have to deal with microphonic issues in parts. It would make our assemblies go much easier. But they are a fact of life. You can be assured that in aerospace applications the parts used are meeting a variety of specification including microphonic issues. So its a simple explanation (Occam's Razor) that you are trying to conflate apples and oranges. So yeah, you can trust NASA on this- why not ask them rather than presume that these things don't exist at all? There is a rather obvious logical fallacy at play here. False Dilemma comes to mind. 'Nothing personal guys' and then rolling your eyes rather suggests it is personal. Please stop trolling this forum.
    My electronics days were after tube era and were focused on electronic repair of computers and then medical devices. Some of our customers were RCA, GE, Campbell Soup and a few other "serious" folk outfits. They were quite satisfied with my experience level.

    I did not have the pleasure of measuring tubes on antique tube testers for audiophile purposes...

    Look, I understand the position of audio gear manufacturers, I watch enough of Paul McGowan stuff on youtube and the way he tries to explain the typical audiophile questions by first saying "oh boy, you've opened a can of worms". I get it, it is a guild. I'm simply the wrong guy to be kneeling at your altar when it comes to pseudo-science if you catch my drift. There are logical and proven concepts of solid audio gear design and many manufacturers are good at it. I don't see extraordinary claims from the serious players.

    When I see power cords being promoted, I can't help but to think that AC that is magnetically induced by a transformer, rectified, filtered and stored by the power supply to be used at the voltage rails has very little to do with a few milliohms of a difference between them.

    But you don't need to waste your time convincing me about power cords, I would have rather listened to what great lengths you go to to protect your gear from vibrations, what quality components you use in them, how you select tubes, how you test them, what you have discovered in your journey of audio gear design and the sound of "vibration". What does it sound like by the way. How do vibrations manifest themselves within the context of say an amplifier if it not the tubes but capacitors, resistors, inductors, etc. Do they all sound different or similar? Any advice on how to address them? How does one "tune" the sound with vibrational control. Surely there must be a vector for that?

    I know, lots of questions...


    Have a good one Mr.Ralph and keep building that gear that stirs the soul.

  41. #141
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    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!




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  42. #142

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Out of sheer curiosity, I did find at least something resembling some real information on the topic. It is in two parts. It is a discussion of piezo-electric behavior of some ceramic capacitors.

    "While working on a low-noise amplifier circuit I found that the ceramic capacitors on my printed circuit board (PCB) were exhibiting piezoelectric effects and ruining the otherwise extremely low noise of the circuit. This behavior is common in non-C0G type ceramic capacitors, and to remedy the situation, I decided to test three alternative capacitor types: soft-termination ceramic, tantalum and film. All of the capacitors tested were 2.2uF surface-mount types."


    Some fuel for the obsessive fire to build as some audiophiles will no doubt be stressed out over which capacitors they have in their gear. I would suggest not to... Unless you think your gear will be subjected to mechanical vibrations of the magnitude described in part 2.



    Part 1. Stress-induced outbursts: Microphonics in ceramic capacitors (Part 1) - Precision Hub - Archives - TI E2E support forums


    Part 2. Stress-induced outbursts: Microphonics in ceramic capacitors (Part 2) - Precision Hub - Archives - TI E2E support forums

  43. #143
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    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post

    ....

    I take music seriously, I listen to music a lot. That's the main point of this hobby for me. That's my nirvana. My nirvana does not require $300k speakers, power conditioners and fancy power cords but if you are convinced that it does, by all means, spend away and keep spending and upgrading. Yes, I have been around the block with this hobby and owned some serious gear and built a few dedicated rooms for all that sonic horsepower. It was fun and I walked away having formulated much deeper understanding of what it is I want out of this hobby. Took me 30 years or so but I'm all set now.

    ....
    Per chance, is there any evidence you can share that would substantiate your claim that you take music seriously?

    You may have a love for music but I certainly wouldn't jump to any conclusions that you take music seriously.

    For example. A 5-year old child can and often times do have a love for music. But they do nothing to improve the sound quality of their music. Wasn't it you who said earlier you acquire the equipment and mission accomplished? Isn't that roughly the equivalent of what a 5-year old child might do once they've convinced their parent to spring for a little music player? Might that not be their sonic nirvana as well?

    I'm not trying to be offensive here. Hopefully, I'm just trying to connect the dots you're tossing out there. I'm just saying that with what little I've observed, you seem to lack any ability to discern / interpret what you hear, perhaps like the 5-year old? The fact that you do nothing but acquire gear and mission accomplished certainly seems to substantiate my observation that you do nothing to improve the sound quality.

    It would also seem that if you had any significant involvement with high-end audio over the past 30 years as you claim, I would suspect that you would have realized about 25 years ago that any playback system worth listening to (from a sound quality perspective) requires care and nurturing to achieve even a minimally reasonable musical presentation. Yet, you seem to lack this basic understanding.

    And yes, I wholeheartedly agree there is a certain type of nirvana to not care about the quality of sound associated with the music we love. Life is certainly simpler that way and frees up more resources for other endeavors one may be more passionate about and it's certainly cheaper too.

    But here you seem up on your perch claiming to be a lover of music, one who takes music seriously, and in a state of nirvana with what you have. Yet, anytime somebody makes any mention of any attempted effort striving toward a more musical playback presentation, which is one of the reasons this hobby exists, you mock them for their efforts, almost as if you're in some ivory tower.

    What up with that? Especially when I've yet to encounter a single child music lover exhibit this kind of behavior?

    BTW, what exactly do you mean when you say you take music seriously?
    "The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt and extreme forms of vibration mgmt, the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. No, wait. It's all just variations of managing electrical energy" -me

  44. #144
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    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stehno View Post
    Per chance, is there any evidence you can share that would substantiate your claim that you take music seriously?

    You may have a love for music but I certainly wouldn't jump to any conclusions that you take music seriously.

    For example. A 5-year old child can and often times do have a love for music. But they do nothing to improve the sound quality of their music. Wasn't it you who said earlier you acquire the equipment and mission accomplished? Isn't that roughly the equivalent of what a 5-year old child might do once they've convinced their parent to spring for a little music player? Might that not be their sonic nirvana as well?

    I'm not trying to be offensive here. Hopefully, I'm just trying to connect the dots you're tossing out there. I'm just saying that with what little I've observed, you seem to lack any ability to discern / interpret what you hear, perhaps like the 5-year old? The fact that you do nothing but acquire gear and mission accomplished certainly seems to substantiate my observation that you do nothing to improve the sound quality.

    It would also seem that if you had any significant involvement with high-end audio over the past 30 years as you claim, I would suspect that you would have realized about 25 years ago that any playback system worth listening to (from a sound quality perspective) requires care and nurturing to achieve even a minimally reasonable musical presentation. Yet, you seem to lack this basic understanding.

    And yes, I wholeheartedly agree there is a certain type of nirvana to not care about the quality of sound associated with the music we love. Life is certainly simpler that way and frees up more resources for other endeavors one may be more passionate about and it's certainly cheaper too.

    But here you seem up on your perch claiming to be a lover of music, one who takes music seriously, and in a state of nirvana with what you have. Yet, anytime somebody makes any mention of any attempted effort striving toward a more musical playback presentation, which is one of the reasons this hobby exists, you mock them for their efforts, almost as if you're in some ivory tower.

    What up with that? Especially when I've yet to encounter a single child music lover exhibit this kind of behavior?

    BTW, what exactly do you mean when you say you take music seriously?
    A cogent and reasonable post.
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  45. #145

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stehno View Post
    Per chance, is there any evidence you can share that would substantiate your claim that you take music seriously?

    You may have a love for music but I certainly wouldn't jump to any conclusions that you take music seriously.

    For example. A 5-year old child can and often times do have a love for music. But they do nothing to improve the sound quality of their music. Wasn't it you who said earlier you acquire the equipment and mission accomplished? Isn't that roughly the equivalent of what a 5-year old child might do once they've convinced their parent to spring for a little music player? Might that not be their sonic nirvana as well?

    I'm not trying to be offensive here. Hopefully, I'm just trying to connect the dots you're tossing out there. I'm just saying that with what little I've observed, you seem to lack any ability to discern / interpret what you hear, perhaps like the 5-year old? The fact that you do nothing but acquire gear and mission accomplished certainly seems to substantiate my observation that you do nothing to improve the sound quality.

    It would also seem that if you had any significant involvement with high-end audio over the past 30 years as you claim, I would suspect that you would have realized about 25 years ago that any playback system worth listening to (from a sound quality perspective) requires care and nurturing to achieve even a minimally reasonable musical presentation. Yet, you seem to lack this basic understanding.

    And yes, I wholeheartedly agree there is a certain type of nirvana to not care about the quality of sound associated with the music we love. Life is certainly simpler that way and frees up more resources for other endeavors one may be more passionate about and it's certainly cheaper too.

    But here you seem up on your perch claiming to be a lover of music, one who takes music seriously, and in a state of nirvana with what you have. Yet, anytime somebody makes any mention of any attempted effort striving toward a more musical playback presentation, which is one of the reasons this hobby exists, you mock them for their efforts, almost as if you're in some ivory tower.

    What up with that? Especially when I've yet to encounter a single child music lover exhibit this kind of behavior?

    BTW, what exactly do you mean when you say you take music seriously?

    You win the "least intelligent post of the thread award" for this one and I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I guess the majority of musicians who are not audiophiles and most ARE NOT audiophiles, must not be serious about music?



    If you followed what I said earlier, I did mention I had "serious gear" so that by definition is caring about music. What did I imply by serious? How about 6 different pairs of Sonus Faber speakers, 5 pairs of various Wilson Audio speakers, Dynaudio, Martin Logan as well as my own hand built speakers in my youth. My current pair of speakers is Harbeth 30.2 40th anniv. Same speakers that Puma Cat the "reviewer/Snunyata ambassador" on this forum uses.


    The pair of speakers before that, were the Wilson Audio Alexias with D'Agostino Momentum monoblocks in a custom built room with over $20k of acoustic treatments. Total investiment in that room with gear was over $200K. Serious enough or perhaps your personal seriousness levels exceeds it?

    I am currently enjoying my Harbeths with PrimaLuna Dialogue HP integrated running in triode mode or I can fire up my Luxman L590AXII Class A integrated if I feel like solid state.

    I am logging more than 60hrs a week on Roon since I have the luxury to work from home at my own pace and listen to any music I want all day long. I love streaming for that reason, it would get old cleaning and flipping records or even pulling CDs at that rate. I easily listen to 9-12 albums a day sometimes. If I feel like late night listening and don't want to disturb my wife, I have various headphones and both Tube and Class A headphone listening choices.

    Now, so if we are talking "serious" and being able to discern like the connoisseurs we are.... Was my prior system "better"? In absolute terms, YES. Do I not find my current system enjoyable because I have experienced better in my life? That is like saying I can no longer enjoy food because I had that steak at Wolfgang Puck's Cut steakhouse in Vegas a few times...

    Realize that there is no "BEST" it is an elusive term at best and also lets not ignore one little FACT.... If one audio system truly is a "reference" and gets everything "Right", then every other system on the planet is not a reference by definition and is "Wrong". Since 99% will not agree with that logic, we all play on our own levels of comfort and willingness to "get serious" about our hobby.

    I would never judge anyone by the amount of $$$$ spent on their system but I do get impressed when I can discuss favorite music and the audiophile actually knows more than a handful of "audiophile grade recordings" and we can talk composers, performers and favorite compositions... My passion is Jazz but I listen to Classical and Blues and even some classic Rock from time to time. If anything, with all the time I do have to listen, I really do not have time to listen to everything I would want to...

    I fail to see much sense in collecting shiny boxes and obsessing over vibration control if music is not the main objective. Love of music does not require expensive audio gear either, as I have alluded to at the beginning.


    As it relates to the original topic, my PrimaLuna uses the not so inexpensive SCR Tinfoil Caps which are not microphonic as well as high quality Takman resistors and my tubes are still healthy. No vibrational worries on my end. YMMV...

  46. #146
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    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    I'm simply the wrong guy to be kneeling at your altar when it comes to pseudo-science if you catch my drift. There are logical and proven concepts of solid audio gear design and many manufacturers are good at it. I don't see extraordinary claims from the serious players.

    When I see power cords being promoted, I can't help but to think that AC that is magnetically induced by a transformer, rectified, filtered and stored by the power supply to be used at the voltage rails has very little to do with a few milliohms of a difference between them.

    But you don't need to waste your time convincing me about power cords, I would have rather listened to what great lengths you go to to protect your gear from vibrations, what quality components you use in them, how you select tubes, how you test them, what you have discovered in your journey of audio gear design and the sound of "vibration". What does it sound like by the way. How do vibrations manifest themselves within the context of say an amplifier if it not the tubes but capacitors, resistors, inductors, etc. Do they all sound different or similar? Any advice on how to address them? How does one "tune" the sound with vibrational control. Surely there must be a vector for that?

    I know, lots of questions...


    Have a good one Mr.Ralph and keep building that gear that stirs the soul.
    I think the biggest issue that you have to overcome to support your position about vibration is the simple fact that the word 'microphonic' is a thing, which apparently has been around longer than your entire career.

    As a side note about power cords I'm not a fan of expensive power cords, but I can very easily demonstrate with a DVM and a dummy load (for a power amplifier) that voltage drops occur across power cords and is why they have audible effects. If you can stand another anecdote, we had an amplifier measured by Bascomb King about 22 years ago. We rate the amp at 140watts RMS and he only got 100 out of it. When we got it back, I immediately put in on the bench to find out why. Now we spec the amp at 120VAC; and to do that we measure the voltage at the IEC connection while the amp is at full power. I set the variac to 120VAC and sure enough, the amp only made 100 watts. So I measured the voltage at the IEC connector and found it to be about 117volts. So I increased the voltage on the variac until I was reading 120VAC at the IEC and at that point the amp was making the 140watt spec. The roughly 3 volt drop was robbing the amp of 40 watts. This isn't surprising, given that if you let the amp run for an hour, the power cord itself is warm. That is why we installed IEC connectors- so you're not stuck with a particular power cord.

    We've made power cords that are considerably heavier (and also not particularly expensive) and our customers comment that they like the sound. When you see 28% of the power gone out of an amplifier, there are other knock-on effects like increased output impedance and distortion. So it should be no surprise that power cords can have an audible effect. But a good cord does not have to be crazy money and we can also conclude that lower powered solid state gear is far less likely to be influenced by a power cord, although a high powered solid state setup will be easily affected. Its just Ohm's Law.

    Returning to your position on vibration, you may notice that when I pointed out that Scully went to great lengths to prevent vibration from affecting an LP mastering lathe, you backed off a bit and from that point on excluded mechanical reproducers from the conversation. So I crossed that line in the sand and talked about Ampex; then you acknowledged tubes were out. I then posted a link to a Wiki page on the topic when you complained that no-one was able to show any links or proof on the topic. Then it was how capacitors can be microphonic and so you came up with some links confirming that certain caps can indeed have microphonic effects...

    Do you see how your position has been eroded? Now I do concede that over time, all components have gotten much better at reducing microphonic effects with the exception of tubes, which are probably worse these days. I'll also point out that your comments about NASA and your work with computers are Red Herrings, on account of NASA took great pains to prevent microphonics from causing problems in their early telemetry by using FM modulation. Later it appears they went to a digital system and like computers, that's helpful for reducing microphonic effects. In audio, we're still working with analog devices: amps, preamps, tuners, tape machines and the like and while they have improved, vibration is still a thing. I've seen microphonic semiconductors, resistors, capacitors and inductors. I don't think I've ever found an electrolytic to be microphonic, nor can I recall seeing that in transformers. And you can seriously make the argument that the components where I've seen this were defective and I would not argue. But right there is a bit of a slippery slope: how defective is the part if the component in which its lurks is easily able to meet its bench specs?

    If you've worked with computers a lot you may have run into the occasional noisy cable, and by this I mean one that makes noise when its disturbed. In the recording studio I've run into this many times. A long time ago, George Cardas very generously gifted me with a set of cables made for my Neumann U67s. They were 50 feet long and I shudder to think what they must have cost. But they were unusable, because the slightest mechanical disturbance of the cables resulted in a very audible sound! (not a hum or buzz; I'd best describe it as a sort of 'squishy' sound.) I've seen both balanced line and single-ended cables exhibit this phenomena (its common in multichannel snakes), but not to the extent that those cables did (Neumann mic cables contain all the power connections as the mics employ outboard power supplies, so they are a bit more complex than regular mic cables). Because of that I've kept my mouth shut when I've seen stands for cables in audio systems (and this is partly because I don't want to get into an argument; if these stands are trying to solve this problem IMO they are going about it wrong), because I've seen that cables can produce microphonic noise. Not all cables do IME (most don't have any issues at all) and I simply replace the cable if I find one that is making noise due to physical motion (and to be clear, I'm not talking about a cable that simply has a bad connection somewhere).

    Regarding our own preamps, we recognized vibration as a problem early on. Because I worked with Ampex gear while in college, when our first preamp was designed it employed isomeric isolation between the chassis and circuit boards. I was never a fan of fancy expensive front panels but then I discovered that a thicker front panel resonates at a different frequency from the chassis and if they are rigidly coupled the result is a far more dead enclosure. Additionally we offer a damping package that uses a variety of materials to further deaden the chassis. The effects of this are easily heard and measured. At any rate those thicker front panels turned out to be more than just bling. And there's no 'tuning'; if you are doing that you are dealing with a resonance.

  47. #147

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    I've been following this thread and was about to put in my 2c regarding the disjointed comments equating one's level of gear obsession with one's level of music appreciation -- but Octopus responded for himself just fine!

    I don't know if vibrations within components is a serious sound quality issue or not. Some people I respect say it is.

    But what strikes me about this thread is how fragile and defensive the audiophile tribe can be when their particular world view is challenged.
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  48. #148
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    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    I haven’t kept up with this thread entirely, but I’ve enjoyed Ralph’s posts.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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  49. #149

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Me too!
    Source: Taiko Audio Server, Cisco 2960 Switch, Gigafoil, Lampizator Pacific Dac. Amp: Bakoon 13r Speakers: AvantGarde Duo Mezzo XD, Cables: Alan Maher Designs Power, Duelund Speaker, Shunyata Sigma IC's Audioquest Diamond ethernet. Room Treatment Vicoustic.

  50. #150

    Re: The biggest secret has been revealed?!

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    I think the biggest issue that you have to overcome to support your position about vibration is the simple fact that the word 'microphonic' is a thing, which apparently has been around longer than your entire career.

    As a side note about power cords I'm not a fan of expensive power cords, but I can very easily demonstrate with a DVM and a dummy load (for a power amplifier) that voltage drops occur across power cords and is why they have audible effects. If you can stand another anecdote, we had an amplifier measured by Bascomb King about 22 years ago. We rate the amp at 140watts RMS and he only got 100 out of it. When we got it back, I immediately put in on the bench to find out why. Now we spec the amp at 120VAC; and to do that we measure the voltage at the IEC connection while the amp is at full power. I set the variac to 120VAC and sure enough, the amp only made 100 watts. So I measured the voltage at the IEC connector and found it to be about 117volts. So I increased the voltage on the variac until I was reading 120VAC at the IEC and at that point the amp was making the 140watt spec. The roughly 3 volt drop was robbing the amp of 40 watts. This isn't surprising, given that if you let the amp run for an hour, the power cord itself is warm. That is why we installed IEC connectors- so you're not stuck with a particular power cord.

    We've made power cords that are considerably heavier (and also not particularly expensive) and our customers comment that they like the sound. When you see 28% of the power gone out of an amplifier, there are other knock-on effects like increased output impedance and distortion. So it should be no surprise that power cords can have an audible effect. But a good cord does not have to be crazy money and we can also conclude that lower powered solid state gear is far less likely to be influenced by a power cord, although a high powered solid state setup will be easily affected. Its just Ohm's Law.

    Returning to your position on vibration, you may notice that when I pointed out that Scully went to great lengths to prevent vibration from affecting an LP mastering lathe, you backed off a bit and from that point on excluded mechanical reproducers from the conversation. So I crossed that line in the sand and talked about Ampex; then you acknowledged tubes were out. I then posted a link to a Wiki page on the topic when you complained that no-one was able to show any links or proof on the topic. Then it was how capacitors can be microphonic and so you came up with some links confirming that certain caps can indeed have microphonic effects...

    Do you see how your position has been eroded? Now I do concede that over time, all components have gotten much better at reducing microphonic effects with the exception of tubes, which are probably worse these days. I'll also point out that your comments about NASA and your work with computers are Red Herrings, on account of NASA took great pains to prevent microphonics from causing problems in their early telemetry by using FM modulation. Later it appears they went to a digital system and like computers, that's helpful for reducing microphonic effects. In audio, we're still working with analog devices: amps, preamps, tuners, tape machines and the like and while they have improved, vibration is still a thing. I've seen microphonic semiconductors, resistors, capacitors and inductors. I don't think I've ever found an electrolytic to be microphonic, nor can I recall seeing that in transformers. And you can seriously make the argument that the components where I've seen this were defective and I would not argue. But right there is a bit of a slippery slope: how defective is the part if the component in which its lurks is easily able to meet its bench specs?

    If you've worked with computers a lot you may have run into the occasional noisy cable, and by this I mean one that makes noise when its disturbed. In the recording studio I've run into this many times. A long time ago, George Cardas very generously gifted me with a set of cables made for my Neumann U67s. They were 50 feet long and I shudder to think what they must have cost. But they were unusable, because the slightest mechanical disturbance of the cables resulted in a very audible sound! (not a hum or buzz; I'd best describe it as a sort of 'squishy' sound.) I've seen both balanced line and single-ended cables exhibit this phenomena (its common in multichannel snakes), but not to the extent that those cables did (Neumann mic cables contain all the power connections as the mics employ outboard power supplies, so they are a bit more complex than regular mic cables). Because of that I've kept my mouth shut when I've seen stands for cables in audio systems (and this is partly because I don't want to get into an argument; if these stands are trying to solve this problem IMO they are going about it wrong), because I've seen that cables can produce microphonic noise. Not all cables do IME (most don't have any issues at all) and I simply replace the cable if I find one that is making noise due to physical motion (and to be clear, I'm not talking about a cable that simply has a bad connection somewhere).

    Regarding our own preamps, we recognized vibration as a problem early on. Because I worked with Ampex gear while in college, when our first preamp was designed it employed isomeric isolation between the chassis and circuit boards. I was never a fan of fancy expensive front panels but then I discovered that a thicker front panel resonates at a different frequency from the chassis and if they are rigidly coupled the result is a far more dead enclosure. Additionally we offer a damping package that uses a variety of materials to further deaden the chassis. The effects of this are easily heard and measured. At any rate those thicker front panels turned out to be more than just bling. And there's no 'tuning'; if you are doing that you are dealing with a resonance.
    Thanks for sharing your experience and thoughts on the topic. I will respond with a few points.

    A power cord is not excluded from Ohm's Law... But laws and rules are sometimes broken? Superconductors ARE excluded from OHMs law. You talk about the voltage drop and having adequate gauge of conductors to realize full potential. I agree. A power cord has to be sufficient to meet specs as advertised if it is included. At the same time, let's not ignore the often cheap FUSE after the power cord that also heats up and its cold resistance is different from its HOT resistance... The dichotomy of having a multi-thousand dollar power cord with an often rather cheap FUSE in line with the whole equation is a bit absurd NO?



    My career with electronics was indeed brief. I was field rep that would fix computers and then became one of the most valuable bench techs because I was the only one that actually could troubleshoot and diagnose down to component level, while the other techs were field "board swappers" and would bring them back to me from the field to fix...

    I had a lot of fun with electronics but I went back for further education and changed over to medical field where my passion for electronic equipment was fused with medicine and diagnostic imaging of patients utilizing multi-million dollar equipment to get a glimpse into a human body from the inside... That always fascinated me and I enjoyed my career. I often discussed many topics with the medical equipment engineers and since I was working with equipment that was utilizing "superconductors", which always intrigued me, there were many great conversations that took place.

    You see, when you have power cables resembling actual Anaconda for a "real reason", that actually can physically move from the pulsing gradients of the superconductor magnet, which is providing 1.5 Tesla or 30,000 times the strength of the magnetic field of the Earth and the power pulses or "switching currents" flowing through the cables that are actually "audible", well, power cords for my 35w in Triode mode power amplifier is just silly by comparison... So do vibration levels of my PrimaLuna sitting perched on its rack with about 65-75dB of Jazz softly playing in the background...

    Not to say that any of that is not important in audio, it is but we do like to overdramatize things in audio which is often used for the obvious and in my opinion "as a person who values honesty and integrity in people", simply used for the bad marketing and exploitation of certain concepts as well as straight up pseudo-science claims and some pure snake oil in the traditional sense of the word, for $$$$ profit.... As if a $10K power cord will rock anyone's world in the context of any system...


    But I digress...


    NASA was an example used because I thought it would be an extreme and obvious application of putting electronic components to the test. Stress, vibration, shockwaves, temperature extremes, glitch inducing levels of radiation....

    If NASA can get around those, surely we can get around the bit of microphonics present in some low grade or poor choice for the application components. Place your creations on a shaker table and break out the oscilloscope before calling the project done?


    What does NASA do?


    The primary purpose of most dynamic tests of spacecraft is the simulation of the flight dynamic
    environments, which are typically so severe as to cause failure of electronic components,
    mechanisms, optics, and structures that were not specifically designed to survive these
    environments (NASA-HDBK-7005, Dynamic Environmental Criteria).

    These high levels of
    vibration and sound are generated by the launch vehicle and other sources, such as the firing of
    pyrotechnic devices or the impact of a spacecraft landing, as in the case of the Mars Exploration
    Rover (MER) spacecraft (Coleman and Davis, 2004).

    In the case of flight microphonics, which
    are vibrations caused by the operation of on-board equipment, the vibration test levels are
    usually not so high as to cause failure but rather degradation in the performance of sensitive
    instruments.

    The most straightforward way of testing for these dynamic environments would be
    to exactly simulate the flight environment, but this is not appropriate in most cases. Rather, the
    tests typically represent a simulation of the dynamic environments defined from a statistical
    analysis of many missions and many different operational conditions.

    It is also common practice
    to define the flight environments using descriptors that can be reasonably specified and
    controlled, e.g., random vibration power spectral densities (PSDs), one-third octave band
    acoustic levels, or shock response spectra (SRSs) (NASA-HDBK-7005).



    There isn't much more to add other than if I was an Audio Designer, I would certainly pay attention and run some tests to see how audible vibration levels really are and document my findings. If the oscilloscope is not showing much action from a preamp/amp being on a shaker table, then there is nothing to worry about? If it is, we can narrow it down and take care of it with either good isolation measures such as the steps you mentioned in your creations or we switch to higher level, microphonic free products.

    My own PrimaLuna uses French Tinfoil caps SCR and since I am happy with the resolution, musicality and engagement qualities of my integrated, I assume the vibrations are not manifesting anything worth talking about in my own system.

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