Thread: The biggest problem with….

The Biggest Problem with Audio Reviewers (and Manufacturers)


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Interesting article... however, as usual with anything I have read from Jeff I simply do not like his writing style. He spends far too much of the article on tangents to make a point that could have been made much more efficiently. I also don't really agree with him although he makes some good points. Four companies... and that's it.... hmmm, what about Fynne, Kharma, MBL, Harbeth, KEF, B&W, etc., etc., etc.? But he does try to write about interesting, or lets say unique topics that are not usually written about. I will give him credit for that one.

Randy - I think his points are very valid and become quite choppy waters if not navigated properly.


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Originally Posted by Randy Myers

...He spends far too much of the article on tangents to make a point that could have been made much more efficiently...

True of audio reviewing in general, I think...

Originally Posted by Mike

Randy - I think his points are very valid and become quite choppy waters if not navigated properly.

He certainly has some valid points, but I am not a big fan... and I don't like the way he discounts so many brands, and what many of us consider some of the best brand... statements like this...

"Still, the four brands I just named all make top-tier products, and I feel safe recommending that someone in the market could do a lot worse, and probably no better, than auditioning and choosing a speaker from one of these four manufacturers."

Jeff's point seems to be that reviewers ought to have a point of reference with regards to the best the industry can offer, in his words “the upper reaches of the quality spectrum: the ultra in audio, so to speak.”

Failure to have such a point of reference in his opinion can lead to inaccurate assertions that “second tier” products are “competitive with the best”.

Fair enough.

While consumers would love to believe their tier X products are competitive with the best there is on offer, in the finish is it not more relevant is how competitive their product is versus other products at a similar price point?

If the answer is yes then perhaps one take away for audio reviewers is to resist the urge of comparing with the “ultra” or the so called "best" which is always debatable and focus instead on comparing with a line-up of similarly priced products.

Originally Posted by kiwi_1282001

point of reference with regards to the best the industry can offer

Audiophiles can't agree on what day it is, much less what's "best".

cheers,

AJ

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

Audiophiles can't agree on what day it is, much less what's "best".

cheers,

AJ

I totally agree.

That was a spot-on assessment of reviewing and manufacturing in high end audio today.

I see a lot of manufacturers making schoolboy errors in ‘statement’ pieces because they don’t have the knowledge or competitive context to really play in certain product categories. Then reviewers without the appropriate context write glowing subjective reviews of these products, which then drive sales, perpetuating the cycle.

Originally Posted by kiwi_1282001

If the answer is yes then perhaps one take away for audio reviewers is to resist the urge of comparing with the “ultra” or the so called "best" which is always debatable and focus instead on comparing with a line-up of similarly priced products.

This was also a point I was trying to get across. This fixation with the ultra and making it seem like you can never be done, or your system being satisfying unless you have the ultra is just plain ridicules. It also is a huge turn off to some people who might otherwise love our hobby, thinking they could never afford it so why bother. Instead, the comparisons should be made with gear that people can actually afford and strive for instead of gear that very few people will ever be able to afford.

Originally Posted by Alkyogre

For me all those reviews are the same, everything sounds warm, gentle, subtile, detailed, analogue etcetera

Take some scissors, cut 20 hifi pictures (speakers, amps, dacs, cables,powersupplies, may be mixed), and seperate from the conclusion about sound quality. I bet not many are able to replace the right conclusion to the right item.

This adds to my opinion expressed above about audio reviews in general being too verbose with (usually) irrelevant tangents. Although measurements may have limited value, at least those sections of reviews which include them stay on-topic.

It’s fun to find reviews of equipment you already own to see if the reviewer’s perceptions match your experience with the product.

I’d never heard of Jeff Fritz, the author of the subject of this thread. I read his Sonus Faber Amati Futura review and I think he did a fine job of describing how they sound and what to expect.

Reviewers are only valuable if they have a very long tenure in the business and have experienced a lot of product. If you own or have owned or experienced gear they have reviewed, you can figure out if your tastes match those of the reviewer.

Originally Posted by W9TR

...
I’d never heard of Jeff Fritz, the author of the subject of this thread. I read his Sonus Faber Amati Futura review and I think he did a fine job of describing how they sound and what to expect.

Reviewers are only valuable if they have a very long tenure in the business and have experienced a lot of product.

He would appear to fit your criteria. He's been reviewing for a while, and for a pretty wide variety of components in the $10k - $100k MSRP range

I like the article, and agree with many of the points. I disagree with the author's title for the article though... "The biggest problem..."
Mike already identified "the biggest problem with reviewers" in a previous thread, one in which a fellow member and contributor to Part Time Audiophile noted the trend to only publish positive reviews, and simply not publicize unfavorable ones. Mike pointed out that that would be anathema in any other industry (autos, for example).
I agree.

IMO, Jeff's title of his article is so far off the mark, it's laughable. As for the point I think he was trying to get across was a bit irrelevant or perhaps should go without saying.

If Jeff is saying others ought to do their homework first, I'm fine with that. But if Jeff is saying, one must first research, know, comprehend, etc all little idiosyncrasies of the market or competition, Jeff's assuming these idiosyncrasies are all noteworthy and benefiicial and I doubt there's much proof of that.

Overall, I thought the article was a big nothing burger.

Originally Posted by rbbert

He would appear to fit your criteria. He's been reviewing for a while, and for a pretty wide variety of components in the $10k - $100k MSRP range

Rob, you may be right. I’ll check out some of his other reviews. Maybe I’m prejudiced but I haven’t found many (any?) online reviewers with the ‘chops’ to be really credible. Some of the more straightforward functional online reviews (how it works, not how it sounds) are pretty good.

Great article! Thanks for sharing Mike.
I like Jeff's content and usually end up reading a few more articles whenever I visit Soundstage Ultra

Not sure what the fuss is all about with the article but I found it to be balanced with the appropriate counterpoint where needed.



.

Originally Posted by Ricky64

I like the article, and agree with many of the points. I disagree with the author's title for the article though... "The biggest problem..."
Mike already identified "the biggest problem with reviewers" in a previous thread, one in which a fellow member and contributor to Part Time Audiophile noted the trend to only publish positive reviews, and simply not publicize unfavorable ones. Mike pointed out that that would be anathema in any other industry (autos, for example).
I agree.

"" in a previous thread, " I must have missed that thread

Originally Posted by Henry303

Most of the "long tenure in the business" reviewers are just guns for hire. Feel free to point me to any critical or even 'less than stellar' review you read lately by any of them.

Did you see this?

Alta Audio Alec Loudspeakers


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Originally Posted by Henry303

Most of the "long tenure in the business" reviewers are just guns for hire. Feel free to point me to any critical or even 'less than stellar' review you read lately by any of them.

The more reviews I read the more I tend to agree. I have seen some reviews where the reviewer is not falling all over themselves however I have not recently read a "bad" review of anything. I have heard that if a reviewer writes a less than stellar review it basically gets thrown away, not published. Therefore, really what is the purpose anyway with actually writing the review.

Originally Posted by Mike

Did you see this?

Alta Audio Alec Loudspeakers


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So he gives them a bad review because of the midbass primarily and says the construction quality was subpar compared to the SF speakers he had which cost $5k more mixed in with thick vocals and a ribbon tweeter that wasn't to his liking. The manufacturer said the review samples were defective and we never heard if they actually shipped a second pair back to Fritz.

By the way, a 1/4 wavelength transmission line designed to be flat to 30 Hz isn't "several feet" long. The line would be over 9' long (9.416').

I've always like Jeff's written reviews and in any of the videos I've seen of him he seems knowledgeable, articulate and on point.

This article is basically saying buyer (i.e. reader/watcher of reviews) beware because some reviewers don't know what they don't know. It's a fair point.

The issue of bad reviews has been discussed by editors at several times in the past, although with the growing number of solely online review sites the rationale behind avoiding nad reviews is less convincing (i.e., that with a limited number of pages it is more important to highlight the worthwhile products than to pint out the less worthy).

Also worth considering is that the majority of reviewers request products that have positively impressed them already.

I often wonder these days, especially with electronics in general, are their really any “bad” sounding gear? Seems to my ears, most of the amps, preamps, streamers, etc., all sound very good in general, and maybe it is truly difficult to write a bad review, without just finding some little oddity or other to nit pick about. So many things come in to play with the gear itself, and dare I even say, how it looks or feels? Easy to say it is all about the “sound” of course….Speakers are another thing altogether. Just my penny of thoughts right off.

Reviews are entertainment. Nothing more. If you have direct experience with products that have been reviewed you can then start to draw some conclusions about how the reviewer’s experiences match your own. That has some value.

It was nice to see a less than stellar review of a poorly designed loudspeaker. Very refreshing.

Buying Hifi is like buying a car. There is no "best". Many cars look great and drive fine for their budget.

Why should I care what somebody else prefers? Most reviews are paid PR anyway; direct or indirect.

Just trust yourself and choose your favorite model and enjoy.

Or not - and keep watching your neighbors & friends stuff, read magazines and change every month.

Your local dealer might indeed like that a lot.

reviews are good to find out details on a product you might be considering. I find Manufacturers websites lacking in useful information generally.

I take reviews with a big grain of salt other than that. I've seen rviewers writing about a product that is clearly beyond the reviewers system he is using. I know some reviewers who write for those online audio pages who I don't feel are qualified, lack of experience. You have to handle some gear, have it pass through your system, go to some shows, be in the business or other experience, just because you own a system and maybe have upgraded don't make you a reviewer.

And, don't get me started on these YouTube guys, most have an agenda and cater to a certain crowd, most don't care if what they say is true or who they slander.

I've actually gotten burned by trusting a reviewer. I used to think the long time well known reviewers might be credible. I read a Stereophile review where the writer says he couldn't tell any difference between these two products in performance, one was more expensive. I had a chance to get the cheaper product on a deal but no way to audition, I knew better but did it anyway. I did not like the sound of the product, I sold it. I auditioned the more expensive product and placed the order that day with the dealer who brought it over. I don't want to think the reviewer would lie but the two products he said sounded the same clearly did not. In fact, the difference in price was well worth it.

And, sometimes the more you findout about the reviewers you know whether you would consider them or not. There's a welll knone reviewer who I saw on FB post things I don't agree with and wouldn't even bother reding anything else by him, from his comments I just do not have confidence in the person's judgment on audio.

Originally Posted by tube-vds

Buying Hifi is like buying a car. There is no "best". Many cars look great and drive fine for their budget.

Why should I care what somebody else prefers? Most reviews are paid PR anyway; direct or indirect.

Just trust yourself and choose your favorite model and enjoy.

Or not - and keep watching your neighbors & friends stuff, read magazines and change every month.

Your local dealer might indeed like that a lot.

There is always a best to those who care and can appreciate the difference ..!


Regards

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

reviews are good to find out details on a product you might be considering. I find Manufacturers websites lacking in useful information generally.

I take reviews with a big grain of salt other than that. I've seen rviewers writing about a product that is clearly beyond the reviewers system he is using. I know some reviewers who write for those online audio pages who I don't feel are qualified, lack of experience. You have to handle some gear, have it pass through your system, go to some shows, be in the business or other experience, just because you own a system and maybe have upgraded don't make you a reviewer.

And, don't get me started on these YouTube guys, most have an agenda and cater to a certain crowd, most don't care if what they say is true or who they slander.

I've actually gotten burned by trusting a reviewer. I used to think the long time well known reviewers might be credible. I read a Stereophile review where the writer says he couldn't tell any difference between these two products in performance, one was more expensive. I had a chance to get the cheaper product on a deal but no way to audition, I knew better but did it anyway. I did not like the sound of the product, I sold it. I auditioned the more expensive product and placed the order that day with the dealer who brought it over. I don't want to think the reviewer would lie but the two products he said sounds ded the same clearly did not. In fact, the difference in price was well worth it.

And, sometimes the more you findout about the reviewers you know whether you would consider them or not. There's a welll knone reviewer who I saw on FB post things I don't agree with and wouldn't even bother reding anything else by him, from his comments I just do not have confidence in the person's judgment on audio.

Great review Peabody ...!!!

Originally Posted by mep

So he gives them a bad review because of the midbass primarily and says the construction quality was subpar compared to the SF speakers he had which cost $5k more mixed in with thick vocals and a ribbon tweeter that wasn't to his liking. The manufacturer said the review samples were defective and we never heard if they actually shipped a second pair back to Fritz.

By the way, a 1/4 wavelength transmission line designed to be flat to 30 Hz isn't "several feet" long. The line would be over 9' long (9.416').

Isn't that several feet long ...!!

TL speakers tend to score low on PRAT , really good on low bass sleepy stuff , pretty difficult to overcome Line length ..!



Regards

Great discussions here. I enjoy reading the reviews, but let the ultimate arbiter be my own ears. I really enjoy the work and effort the reviewers put in. It’s not meant to be a perfect science, it’s mean to be objective and fun! Remember, this is all entertainment at the end of the day. We aren’t curing cancer here.

What I see as the biggest “threat” to the integrity of the industry is not the reviewers, not even close, it’s the COMPENSATED shills. The shills are cloaked in a dark veil. They are hidden under the shroud of being genuine, when they are ultimately, anything but.

You guys have no idea what goes on. The big name manufacturer guys wouldn’t have anything to do with such a thing, but the little manufacturer guys trying to knock the big manufacturer guys off their pedestal will resort to engaging the online shills. I personally would NEVER do that. I’ve sold and loaned a lot of stuff, but never once have I asked anyone to shill. It’s completely disingenuous. If people love it and post about it, GREAT! If they love it, but keep it to themselves, that’s GREAT too. Guys, just be on the lookout for the same guy posting on multiple forums, even audiogon about the second coming of his new amp or whatever. There is hinky business going on. That I can assure you. Only trust your ears. Don’t fall into the trap of believing the shill.

My advise for everyone is to use your own ears. Trust YOUR judgement. Don’t second guess yourself. If you fall in love with Paradigm speakers and McIntosh amps with an ARC CD player, rock on!!!!!

I love what I love and get quite defensive about it. But I also understand that people like bad digital, Class D amps and bright speakers. My wife likes mint chocolate chip. I tell her it tastes like toothpaste and wouldn’t have anything to do with it.


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The more equipment I try the more that I think most gear sound good, of course some better, some worse. But all have their points.

So, it really comes down to what makes you happy, that simple. Much of it comes down to what I refer to as the warm and fuzzies... what pieces just put a smile on my face... whether it be the looks, or the features or more importantly how the features actually work. Of course, sound, although the more I listen the more I believe that my getting older ears just cannot hear much difference.

What makes me happy... I am thrilled with my recent moves back into McIntosh gear. My hometown connection makes me happy, all the custom controls on the pre-amp makes me happy, how easy these controls can be used makes me happy, how it all integrates together and even integrates other manufactures amplifiers really makes me happy.... just one man's perspective.

Originally Posted by Mike

Great discussions here. I enjoy reading the reviews, but let the ultimate arbiter be my own ears.

With that being said, those of us that have been around long enough know how to 'read between the lines'. As much as I want to trust my ears I also know that different 'biases' are at play as well, therefore I like to know good specs are also in order.

Originally Posted by Mikado463

With that being said, those of us that have been around long enough know how to 'read between the lines'. As much as I want to trust my ears I also know that different 'biases' are at play as well, therefore I like to know good specs are also in order.

I definitely check out the specs too.


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Originally Posted by Mikado463

With that being said, those of us that have been around long enough know how to 'read between the lines'. As much as I want to trust my ears I also know that different 'biases' are at play as well, therefore I like to know good specs are also in order.

I agree; I certainly will not rely completely on specs, but I do want to know that a piece at least has good solid specs.

Originally Posted by a.wayne

There is always a best to those who care and can appreciate the difference ..!

And a secret handshake. Don't forget the secret handshake.

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

And a secret handshake. Don't forget the secret handshake.

DAMMIT.... I guess I am not in the know.... no one ever taught me the secret handshake... son of a bitch and blast it all.....

Mike, what the hell? I thought I could count on you .

The best

... I will have to start working with my critters to make sure they know the "hand shake", since obviously I need all three to help!