Thread: Audiophiles - a bunch of hypocrites?

Nary a day goes by when we aren't bemoaning the outrageous cost of the latest DAC, Phonostage, Turntable, cartridge, pair of speakers, preamp, amp or set of cables. We can't believe the DAC of the month is now $90,000 when the previous DAC of the month was $60,000.

We bemoan the cost of the latest $50,000 preamp/DAC from Switzerland or the latest Field Coil speakers from Japan. We look at the latest $100,000 speaker cables and remember fondly the days when most expensive was "only" $60,000.

But despite all this, many turn their noses up at great products costing a lot less. Why?

I was reading the latest issue of TAS and it contained a terrific review of the Classe CP800 preamp (current MSRP is about $7000 with DAC and Phonostage and EQ and and and). The first review I ever read of the Classe CP800 preamp was over 3 years ago and I remember buying one even before that first review came out on the recommendation of a friend.

I said at the time that the CP800 was as good, if not better, than my McIntosh C1000C/P which I A:B for many weeks before selling the C1000C/P and keeping the CP800.

Although I don't have the CP800 anymore, I have no reservations in saying it was one of the best preamps I've ever owned - regardless of price and is exactly the type of product we should be putting on a pedestal in high end audio.

The Hegel H30 was another great product. Another giant killer. Ditto for the Devialet 400. Ditto for Harbeth and Living Voice speakers, which are at least 90% as good as the Strads - and certainly better in the midrange. Ditto for Maggies. Ditto for KEF LS50's. Ditto for First Watt. Ditto for the Vinnie Rossie Lio and pretty much anything by Dan Wright. Ditto for the Avantgarde Zero's. Ditto for so many more reasonably priced products out there which are true giant killers.

I was speaking with another dealer friend yesterday who sells YG. He said to me his biggest challenge is price. I thought he was about to complain they cost too much, but he explained, "Wilson owners, Magico owners, frankly, owners of many very expensive speakers come into my store to hear the YG's, they will even tell me how great they sound, some even saying they sound better than their speakers at home, but once they learn the price, they leave saying 'it can't be as good as my XLF's or Q7's because my speakers cost more'." Huh?

Yes, yes, I often buy some crazy expensive stuff myself, but I also LOVE finding a great product that costs a hell of a lot less and at the trade shows, that's what I'm hunting for - the hidden gems.

When surrounded by $200,000 speakers and $200,000 amp/preamp combos, how hard is it to accept that the $3000 Vinnie Rossi Lio with the $7000 Harbeth's was one of the best sounds at the last show?

My point is that there are great products out on the market which don't have to cost as much as a car or even a small home and just because something doesn't cost as much as something else, doesn't necessarily mean it isn't as good - or in many cases, better.

I agree Mike. Well said.

I don't have enough money to qualify as a hypocrite!

Good post!

Not related to audio, but I have friends that won't shop at Kmart or Walmart but will buy the exact same item from Macy's for more money so they can say they bought it at Macy's and don't have to admit they shop at walmart.

Some people just have a mindset that if it is more expensive, it must be better and that is exactly what the $200,000 MFG is hoping for. I get there is R&D and testing and lots of unrelated to the actual product costs, but there is really no way that there is $200,000 worth of parts and labor in any given product. You are paying for the R&D over and over and every customer does the same.

Does any MFG ever lower the price of a product once they recoup the R&D and actual MFG costs? I don't know of any.

There are so many reasonably priced components out there that even the above average Joe could not help but to admit sounds as good or even better sometimes than it's 20x more expensive competition.

It's a shame Eric did not go further with his Low Cost Show Report and that others don't demand the cost of products be in line with actual worth. Too many people actually do have that kind of money to blow without blinking, but not me. I read all these posts about all the gear I will never be able to afford only to weed out the ones I could, like the Hegal and many more great pcs of gear talked about here.

For some, it's the entry cost of the Elite Club of those with more money than common sense sometimes, and I don't say that to offend anyone here, but at no time does a $200,000 pair of speakers ever sound 200x better than a $2000 pair, but if you have the money to blow, go for it. I probably would also if my financial situation was in line with that mindset.

I usually only buy new gear when something dies completely so far and few between. But, at least I will know what to buy because of everyone here
Every time I get the itch, I listen to what I have and really think it sounds great. Could it be better? Yes, but at what price to performance ratio?

Is it any wonder that young people are less interested in audio quality given the high cost of admission?

Well said Mike. When I stared to get more serious about audio I went for gear that was a lot of bang for the buck due to paying off college and med school student loans and putting 2 kids though college. I started with Maggie's and Van Alstine tube gear (I live 3 minutes from Frank VA and 20 minutes from the Maggie Factory) as well as some budget Monitor Audio S1 and PSB B6 speakers. These systems sounded great, better than some systems that cost 2-3 times as much. And currently there is a lot of gear at reasonable prices that sounds great.

It's east to throw money around, if you have it, but it takes real work to find those pieces of gear that play WAY above their price point.

But it's also the most rewarding when you find that piece.

I won't shop at Walmart because I hate the place and they attract the famously weird and deranged. Local police departments hate Walmart because they suck up all their resources arresting the great people who shop there. One of the cities in Indiana just declared the local Walmart a public nuisance. You guys probably saw the video of the two women beating each other in Walmart with one of the woman's children joining in the fun. That's the Walmart that was declared a public nuisance. Last week at the same Walmart a guy was being detained for shoplifting and he pulled out a gun and ran out of the store to a Chinese restaurant run by Vietnamese. He went into the bathroom and blew his brains out.

Originally Posted by Mike

My point is that there are great products out on the market which don't have to cost as much as a car or even a small home and just because something doesn't cost as much as something else, doesn't necessarily mean it isn't as good - or in many cases, better.

Well said

I'd love to chime-in; but it would take me pages and pages...to even try and scratch the surface, of what I believe the audiophile mind to be.

http://www.cnet.com/news/study-90-wine-tastes-better-than-the-same-wine-at-10/

Originally Posted by mep

I won't shop at Walmart because I hate the place and they attract the famously weird and deranged. Local police departments hate Walmart because they suck up all their resources arresting the great people who shop there. One of the cities in Indiana just declared the local Walmart a public nuisance. You guys probably saw the video of the two women beating each other in Walmart with one of the woman's children joining in the fun. That's the Walmart that was declared a public nuisance. Last week at the same Walmart a guy was being detained for shoplifting and he pulled out a gun and ran out of the store to a Chinese restaurant run by Vietnamese. He went into the bathroom and blew his brains out.

I only used Walmart-Kmart vs Macy's for examples. I personally try to stay away from them myself, but will not pay double for the same product just for bragging rights of where I bought it (which just says I paid too much)

I buy from Walmart but only online and use their free shipping for orders over $35.

Originally Posted by asiufy

Well put, Mike.

As dealers, I think it's our duty to keep at it, and find the products that not only sound good (and are reliable, from reputable companies/individuals), but are also priced correctly, and provide good bang for the audiophile's buck.

Another product line that I've seen a little prejudice towards is the iFi stuff. The iPhono is unbelievable, dead quiet, dynamic phono stage for $400 and change. But comes in a little dinky box, so people won't take it seriously, or think it's just for headphone listening...

Interesting observation. On the flip side, and I can't remember which thread, but someone posted the internals of a mega buck DAC that was nothing more than a larger fancy box with almost nothing inside. I guess size does matter with men

Well...I will say this: it is biased, prejudiced, and hypocritical; but it's not always about money.

A lot of it, is what I like to call the cred or cache factor. You might have an audiophile, favor a $500 piece...over a $5,000 piece; but it's because the $500 piece is an audiophile darling. When he tells people he has it, they know of it and approve.

Or sure; I'll get lit-up, because there will be those who swear...all that matters is sound. Of course we say that; and of course it's most important. But those of us who are honest with themselves...are willing to admit; there is conscious and unconscious factors at play.

I just started saying I like this one...better than that one; could be for a number of reasons...but of course one of them being, I at least think it sounds "better" (whatever that mean sometimes).

$200 Regen...in front of your $10,000 DAC?

Originally Posted by CDLehner

$200 Regen...in front of your $10,000 DAC?

What about thousands of dollars in power conditioning, after market power cables, $300 outlets ALL going back thru a $10 breaker?

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

What about thousands of dollars in power conditioning, after market power cables, $300 outlets ALL going back thru a $10 breaker?

What about the change in signal (capacitance) at the speaker terminal stage? Ha!

I am very shocked that some company hasn't gone after the $10 breakers and upgraded them to cryro super gripping ones for $250.

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

What about thousands of dollars in power conditioning, after market power cables, $300 outlets ALL going back thru a $10 breaker?

So...are we all selling-off? Because I'd like first dibs, on some of the kit around here...lol.

Mike brought up the Classe CP 800 as an example, and it's a great example. I've recommended it so many times that I think I won't anymore. Nobody gives it any respect, it's not expensive enough. It's not made in Switzerland. It's not a boutique brand. All it has done is beat the pants off of many, much more expensive preamps in my system.

Oh well, I guess I'll just sit back and enjoy what a true bargain it is while a bunch of people chase the Dragons tail.

Originally Posted by MDP

Mike brought up the Classe CP 800 as an example, and it's a great example. I've recommended it so many times that I think I won't anymore. Nobody gives it any respect, it's not expensive enough. It's not made in Switzerland. It's not a boutique brand. All it has done is beat the pants off of many, much more expensive preamps in my system.

Oh well, I guess I'll just sit back and enjoy what a true bargain it is while a bunch of people chase the Dragons tail.

Wish it did DSD

Originally Posted by Smile

I shop at WalMart and appreciate what they do for my low income community. They lower the cost of living for poor people. As well, they single-handedly lower the nations rate of inflation and increase productivity. Impressive for a single company. They are under pressure from Amazon, as are many retailers.

WalMart's slogan should be "Only as cheap as we need to be." No two Walmarts in the same state sell products at the same price. The more rural you are and the less competition they have, the higher their prices are. The majority of people who work in WalMart stores are part time employees with no benefits and they don't earn a living wage.

Back to being an audiophile hypocrite...

Not to sound above the frey (and I'm sure I am guilty of some cost bias myself), but I've always thought a world class system could be assembled under $30k for EVERYTHING. And I'm not talking diminishing returns here. I'm talking full on world class. I've never believed that $30k preamps or $60k amps had anything to offer over $8k preamps and $8k amps. I'm not even sure if a $30k preamp is more likely to sound better than an $8k preamp. What I'm saying is I believe that sound quality and cost generally correlate in a linear fashion until you get above a certain threshold (say $10k) and then I think the correlation completely breaks down. I think it's even more true with speakers given how many behemoth speakers I've hear at shows that don't sound so great.

I buy what I want that I can afford. Whining about the rest of the world's purchasing habits is a huge waste of time and energy. In the pursuit of the things we want, we need to learn to be happy with what it is we have. There is no such thing as having it all no matter how much money you are worth. You can't buy true love, you can't buy health, and you can't buy eternal life. A man's true worth is measured in the hearts of those who will miss him when he is gone. The toys are irrelevant. We never actually own anything, rather we simply stand guard on our possessions until we are no longer of this Earth. It's at that moment we leave with what we came with.....nothing.

One of my favorite thoughts to dwell upon: If you want to feel rich, count the things you have that money can't buy.

Dan, what dog is that in your avatar? Some kind of hound?

Originally Posted by jaxwired

Not to sound above the frey (and I'm sure I am guilty of some cost bias myself), but I've always thought a world class system could be assembled under $30k for EVERYTHING. And I'm not talking diminishing returns here. I'm talking full on world class. I've never believed that $30k preamps or $60k amps had anything to offer over $8k preamps and $8k amps. I'm not even sure if a $30k preamp is more likely to sound better than an $8k preamp. What I'm saying is I believe that sound quality and cost generally correlate in a linear fashion until you get above a certain threshold (say $10k) and then I think the correlation completely breaks down. I think it's even more true with speakers given how many behemoth speakers I've hear at shows that don't sound so great.

Well said Tom.

Originally Posted by Double-D

I buy what I want that I can afford. Whining about the rest of the world's purchasing habits is a huge waste of time and energy. In the pursuit of the things we want, we need to learn to be happy with what it is we have. There is no such thing as having it all no matter how much money you are worth. You can't by true love, you can't buy health, and you can't buy eternal life. A man's true worth is measured in the hearts of those who will miss him when he is gone. The toys are irrelevant. We never actually own anything, rather we simply stand guard on our possessions until we are no longer of this Earth. It's at this moment that we leave with what we came.....nothing.

One of my favorite thoughts to dwell upon: If you want to feel rich, count the things you have that money can't buy.

If you have enough money, you can buy a damn good imitation of it! Seriously, there is a lot of truth to what you said and your words represent a conglomeration of 10-15 greeting cards or 20 different bumper stickers.

Here's another great product for the money...a blue chip amp: M1.2 description

Originally Posted by Mike

The Hegel H30 was another great product. Another giant killer. Ditto for the Devialet 400. Ditto for Harbeth and Living Voice speakers, which are at least 90% as good as the Strads - and certainly better in the midrange.

Mike I really love this thread! This is a feeling I think we are all familiar with. I guess most of us spent more than a family car on audio gear (some even a few or a big fancy car) and we all realize that we do it for the last few percent of improvement like you mention in this example.
I am anxiously waiting to receive the Auralic Aries mini streamer which will cost 500 Euro. I will use it to be able to stream DSD next to my Linn that is not able to do that but if the sound quality comes close to the high expectations of the audio press I guess this device will come close to the Linn / Aurender / Lumin stuff that we are using. I have ordered a decent 250 Euro pus with it and that is it.


If you combine this with a pair of Neumann KH 120A speakers for 100 - 1500 EUR a pair you will have a great sounding audio system. For a starter who takes a Qobuz or Tidal membership you are ready.

And this set will give you neutrality, detail, imaging and all the values we care for.

I am not sure if it is hypocrite but yes, we go a long way for the last bit of better sound. Let's face it: audiophiles are freaks!

George.......That is a Photoshopped picture of a German Wirehaired Pointer titled "Old Dog". Sums me up to a Tee.

Originally Posted by mep

If you have enough money, you can buy a damn good imitation of it! Seriously, there is a lot of truth to what you said and your words represent a conglomeration of 10-15 greeting cards or 20 different bumper stickers.

Mark.......You don't really "buy" imitation love, you just rent it. Actually, you pay to get the "love" to leave.

Your right about the greeting card tone of my post. It didn't strike me that way while typing it but it does now. Maybe I can get a work-from-home job with Hallmark.

Originally Posted by asiufy

I don't think I agree with you. Not all of them, mind you, but as a rule, a $30k preamp WILL be better than an $8k amp. There are plenty of examples out there. Yes, it IS diminishing returns here, but to flat out say a $30k preamp is a sham, and everybody should be happy with an $8k preamp is kinda... well... just doesn't seem right.

alexandre

Not really saying $30k preamps are a sham but what I am saying is that at some point money simply can no longer by small improvements in sound quality. For example, do you think that a million dollar preamp is even a micron better than a $200k preamp? I'd say hell no, state of the art is state of the art and more money cannot make it any better. And i do think $10k can buy a state of the art preamp. Any differences between a superb $10k preamp and a superb $30k preamp I'd chalk up to designer approach and buyer preference and not clear sound quality improvements.

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

Jax, I hear you but you of course realized you are basically calling out a bunch of us as knuckleheads. I am fine with that cuz you have the right to your views but I emphatically disagree. That said, I am renowned for my knuckleheadedness.

Yeah, I guess you're right. No offense.

But here's the thing, while I do think that at some point money no longer buys sound quality improvements, it does buy gorgeous build quality. There is no question that most $30k preamps are stunning compared to the plainer offerings in the $8k range. Also, I'm not saying that preamps don't all sound different, they surely do. So it's not like $30k on a preamp can't be justified if the buyer enjoys that particular preamp the most.

And the other thing to note is, I could be completely wrong. Just ask my wife.

Originally Posted by jaxwired

For example, do you think that a million dollar preamp is even a micron better than a $200k preamp? I'd say hell no...

If you agree with the above point but you disagree with my previous assertions, than we don't fundamentally disagree. We just disagree on the price of state of art. Maybe it's not $10k. Maybe it's $40k. But I know damn well there's products selling above that line wherever that line is.

Magicos MRack sells for $40k. I'd say state of the art in rack technology falls somewhat below that price point.

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

No Jax, I like your posts and do NOT take offense at all. I generally think your comment is correct, but I might change the slope on the curve a bit. There is no question our hobby has huge diminishing returns but the slope may stay positive on the line that correlates price and performance for a little bit beyond the $8000 mark. Also, I think your point that people pay a lot for "different" as opposed to "better" is an excellent point but that becomes highly subjective and even a semantical argument at some point.

i think you're right. If I could start this thread over, I'd pick a higher number than $8k. But now I'm stuck with it so I have to defend it to the end.

Mike -

Interesting thread. There is a ton of gear that one can buy for a reasonable amount of money and have a wonderful musical experience. Some brands have already been mentioned here so I won't repeat them again.

Having spent the last 34+ years of my career in technology, I find it very difficult to understand some of the pricing we see with DACs and other audio equipment these days. But, hey, if people buy them, why not?

Yes, one can get a wonderfully sounding system for a reasonable amount of money. It doesn't take five or six figures to enjoy the music.

The no. 1 difference between a pair of (well designed) $2000 speakers and a a pair of $20000 ones is:
the look.
The weight is no.2.
The sound itself most often doesn't make to top 10.

Originally Posted by jaxwired

i think you're right. If I could start this thread over, I'd pick a higher number than $8k. But now I'm stuck with it so I have to defend it to the end.

LoL

Too funny!

Originally Posted by Ritmo

Mike -

Interesting thread. There is a ton of gear that one can buy for a reasonable amount of money and have a wonderful musical experience. Some brands have already been mentioned here so I won't repeat them again.

Having spent the last 34+ years of my career in technology, I find it very difficult to understand some of the pricing we see with DACs and other audio equipment these days. But, hey, if people buy them, why not?

Yes, one can get a wonderfully sounding system for a reasonable amount of money. It doesn't take five or six figures to enjoy the music.

Well when you have an industry sub-sector with absolutely no economies of scale, price becomes, welll...extremely elastic. Basically they are selling functional sculptures.