Thread: Audio path upgrade, where to start?

Dear audiosharks, on my way to upgrade for the better my audio path however against a little budget I try to find out the smartest next step. I've limited the options to two.
I have an amp with decent grip on my speakers, but out of auditioning I know a more horsepower amp will deliver stronger grip and as such better bass performance and more clear and peaceful soundstage. So upgrade of amp is #1 of the possibilities. Investment 3k.
Then, the amp I currently have has a fairly good + well implemented internal DAC, and I'm thinking that I'd be able to get a more clear and peaceful soundstage by upgrading from internal to to an external dac, e.g. from RME or otherwise scientifically proved professional DAC. This is possibility #2 at say 2k.
What is wise in your experienced opinion?

Can you post what equipment you have?

updated the signature

I guess I am at the point of breaking from integrated amp into dedicated parts.
The current H90 is fine as it is, as it performs very well for its weight. Hegel H190 would be my reference though, after careful comparison.
I would not choose upgrade to a H190 as if so I'd always be curious to find if the Hegel DAC is the best possible DAC for my system, and it would also towards the future limit me to explore analog only amps.

First things first:

That's loudspeakers and room.

Note that the amps have to be happy driving the chosen loudspeakers.

room is ok (for me), by the way it's 5m w x 4m deep x 3m hi approx, I know the acoustics and reflections, they're treated as much as possible, and I don't have issues with standing waves as long as I do not play too loud (and I never do)(ref level 70dba max)
speakers are (at least at this moment) for me ok. I know them inside out and they deliver sufficient dept and detail in the sound image.
amp is, even though it is a very good match with the speakers, not strong enough to provide a stable basis i.e. the mid freq details get lost upon playing low freq i.e. strong bass, and the bass freqs in some musical genres seem " on vacation" as how I'd say that. In the H190 they clearly appear. So for this reason the amp is on the list of swapping out. Then the issue with an integrated amp is that I have no separate DAC, so if I want to upgrade to a full analog amp without a digital sections I'd always need a dac first. so that is why I think of a dac as well.

Originally Posted by Speedskater

First things first:

That's loudspeakers and room.

Note that the amps have to be happy driving the chosen loudspeakers.

so after year or so I have learned that even though the little amp is happy to drive the loudspeakers a more horsepower amp will do it with more fun and ease = happiness in the soundstage

Thx. Filling the room for me is relative as I listen at fairly low listening levels and even at the lower levels I'd like an amp that makes the dynes shine to their max. Hegel H90 as advertised would do this, they advertised at the time that " The grip, or damping factor as it is called, is up to 20 times higher than the industry average. Ensuring a dynamic and powerful bass response, even on larger floor standing loudspeakers. " which is why I chose for H90 as my preferred amp back when I started with hifi. for now I know there's more to gain and decided meanwhile to go for a DAC that can handle the D to A which opens possibilities towards a fully analog or dual mono amp which has more beef to it. (as well as if I'd ever part with x18 it could similarly opens the possibilities for active speakers like Dyn BMxxa)

I love the sound of the dynaudio, they would work well in my listening room but for your purpose they have very beautiful passive floorstands which will far better sound in a large listening room

If you still like bookshelves, I know a few bookshelves tested in a Dutch audio show, which where able to fill such a space like that, will cost about 5-6k

Second thing: I notice that you did not invest in better cables and power supply. I absolutely make use of high end cables, I use a power filter for my stuff and of course tested for my stuff how to hook the power line in the block. moreover, I make use of high quality linear power supplies, In my opinion: power is very underestimated. Bit nr... on a dac does need so little amount of voltages that the Electronical bias from the powersupply and the electromagnetical distortion from other components makes that last bit already useless. So the bias of that bit is 0.00001% and the bias of the power supply is 0.0001%. How can that last bit work?

Also, I miss some demping for the speakers

Originally Posted by Jim Smith

[..]Having voiced over 1000 systems to rooms, I am certain that getting your system to work WITH the room is always going to produce the greatest results, especially in the musical engagement area.

It also costs less than most high end components and cables.

And when you do decide to purchase the next component, you'll be much more confident in your choice, because now you can hear it better.

The best advice sofar thanks a lot. I believe also that the knowing the room acoustics + getting the system to work with the room is the best approach. Also when listening not so loud you can, in my opinion, work around the room modes in comparison to listening at concert level.

I guess looking at all replies and my own answers I’ll choose to upgrade to an external dac that has options to adjust to room modes Hopefully this will as 2nd option also result on a more peaceful sound image compared to the internal dac of the h90. In the case the low frequencies will remain missing (I assume this will remain) I can then always have a look at a more powerful amp.

(By the way proper good quality cabling and galvanic separation where possible are for me basics, so I didn’t mention them in my orig question)

I don’t understand you. The dac does not have anything to do with room corrections. If you want room corrections try dirac on another amp. If you want better lows you need other (larger) speakers. Another dac is also an improvement , but does not solve these issues about lows and roon correction.

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Just another option for the ointment, have you thought about adding a subwoofer? Add some bottom end and making the amp'sjob easier.

To get an integrated with muscle at $3k you may have to go used. The Parasound might fit but also has a DAC.

I would look at the Schiit Yggy for the DAC in your budget, you may want to contact them the DAC comes in a couple different flavors.

I’ve thought of a subwoofer indeed. It started as thought a nice addition if trimmed well but could in a square box room trigger more standing waves to fix, so I stayed out of that region so far. The integrateds I try to move away from as I rather spend the future budget at solely the amp and not on overlapping internals e.g. dac.
I know I chose a path to upgrade from source to dac to amp to speakers, for me reasonable and logic approach that not all will understand, bit without dac I can never move to into the terrain of a nice amp that’s just an analog powerhouse

Originally Posted by Alkyogre

I don’t understand you. The dac does not have anything to do with room corrections. If you want room corrections try dirac on another amp. If you want better lows you need other (larger) speakers. Another dac is also an improvement , but does not solve these issues about lows and roon correction.

A dac at all if external will provide imo more choice for amps in the future. Otherwise I will be stuck with integrated how I see it. A first thing to look at.

For better bass I agree there is no alternative for surface area. Nice to have.

For better grip I’d say there is no alternative to amp power. A 2nd to look at.

For room modes I dislike to correct them with software or eq or otherwise, better to learn yourself to work with the room and the equipment inside . Where I mentioned to be able to possibly fix (or destroy) the room acoustics with dac I thought of the advanced parametric eq that is in some RME dacs.

Originally Posted by BlueFox

A DAC has absolutely nothing to do with an amp.

Lol

Current:
Digital source > integrated amp

Desired:
Digital source > dac > amp

Originally Posted by BlueFox

An integrated amp has a built in preamp. Separate amps require an external preamp.

Understood. I’d intend to use this dac as (instead of) preamp.

Originally Posted by plonkywonki

Understood. IÂ’d intend to use this dac as (instead of) preamp.

About preamp functionality, How about the Topping D30 Pro Dac instead?

Originally Posted by Alkyogre

About preamp functionality, How about the Topping D30 Pro Dac instead?

Looks good as well.

I sense that “Preamp ability” seems nowadays to be frontpanel&remotecontrol control of the output volume on the dac.

Me thinks dac for reference quality input into the amp and later amp for better control of the speakers will start to outshine the speakers in the end

Been rethinking in order not to end up spending in a bottomless pit.
My thoughts remain kind of. A DAC might be good path forward, but as long I'm without a dedicated good power amp that I'd be able to keep for 20 years or so it makes no sense. Then for such an amp that would be fully analog and well designed this will (very likely) go outside the budget range as with a better amp I'd go for better speakers as well that match well. For now I love my speakers, I respect my amp, but my path forward would be to step out of the integrated domain when possible, but requires patience.

I now miss my mission 760i's. They fitted in a shopping bag. I wouldn't do that to my current dynes though

Votes so far:
Room improvement: 3
Speakers: 4
Add a Sub: 3
Amp: 0
Cables: 1
DAC: 0

I have today quite intensively checked, listened a/b-ed etc.
1. Speakers - x18's vs evoke20's with slightly deeper bass found in the evoke. No surprise since bigger woofer and case (and specs 44 vs 40 hz lowest freq)
2. Amp - h90 (with int dac) vs h190 (with int dac) with h190 improved grip on the bass, as checked on the evokes.
3. Dac internal integrated - h190 with its better dac provides less distortion and a quieter background compared to h90.
4. Ext dac - h90 only - took a motu sound card (with AKM AK4358 dac chip) and used that as external dac to h90 to compare to h90 built in. The built in shows a somewhat more balanced sound stage at the expense on some detail while the external one opens up the image with additional detail and slightly quieter background but it seems more fatiguing after some time, as tested on x18's.

My opinion afterwards is that speakers might be upgradable to eg evoke, I'd gain 4hz on the bottom end and better speaker components. Not sure if that already makes sense. Amp wise a stronger amp will or may help bring some quieter background though not sure if that would make sense in terms of its investment. Also learned from an ext dac to the h90 that h90 outshines itself with note if any dac it shall be "musical" and not be fatiguing.