Welcome to the AudioShark Forums.
Results 1 to 41 of 41

Thread: Audio Memory

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    St. Louis, MO, USA
    Posts
    1,846

    Audio Memory

    I see people posted on forums that "audio memory" is short, only seconds and not reliable, etc. Most of this is from "all things sound the same" people or those selling DBT. But! let's not go there.

    I would like to know what you think of your "audio memory". I have the impression mine is unusually good but I want more input from others into audio and used to comparing gear. To see how we might compare. Not as a contast, just to provide a base line if you will.. Some comments on another thread prompted me to ask.

    I cannot remember every single audition at a show or even the gear I heard, however, I can remember what certain systems sounded like that left an impression on me for better or worse. I remember systems that impressed me as I started out in high end and what impressed me. I remember gear that I like and dislike and what about them gave me the impression.

    I don't remember every concert I've been too but I do remember some and the sound. Back in the 90's I was at a Blues Fest, I remember Dr. John coming on and his sound being one of the best I've heard at a concert, the congos were clear, piano, vocals, everything was nicely balanced and unusually clear for live music. I remember Rush, the volume was loud but not so I needed ear plugs and the sound was good.

    Not long ago I was at a friend's house listening to music, I noted his sound stage was more open than mine, he did have a larger room, however, I came home and played with my speaker placement to come closer to what I liked about his. My memory of the event was good enough I know what I was trying to achieve.

    So the types of things I mentioned pretty much normal for you as well? I admit I haven't done research on audio memory or if any exists on the subject at all.
    Aurender ACS10 w/AQ Diamond,
    Mark Levinson #526, Coda Continuum 8 , JBL 4367's
    Clearaudio Performance DC w/Maestro cart
    All Clarus Crimson cabling, AC to binding post. Surgex
    HT: Marantz AV8003, Linn 5125, JBL SAM3ha, Revel s30,
    SVS PC13 Ultra
    Transparent, Analysis Plus & Tributaries. PS Audio filtering
    Sony XBR-75X940D & BDP
    Parasound P6, Coda CSX, Artisan speakers

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    718

    Re: Audio Memory

    My audio memory is focused on repeating or bettering what has been the best reproduction from my playlist as I visit clients for RoomPlay sessions, and/or set-up for RoomPlay Reference sessions.

    My memory of concerts is on a different basis, and wouldn't meet my standards for memory with RP & RPR sessions, although memory of concerts is way more fun...
    Small Green Computer; gigaFoil 4 Ethernet w/ Keces PS-3; Sonore ultraRendu; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; Shunyata Alpha & Sigma USBs; AudioQuest Diamond USB 5M: ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; AQ Diamond AES - 3M; AQ Diamond Ethernet - 1.5M; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; PecanPi USB dac; Ayre Codex dac - updated; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amp; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamp, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Wyred 4 Sound STP-750E Mk II amp w/Kimber TCX wiring & WBT binding posts; Quicksilver Mid Mono amps w/Gold Lion KT77s, Joseph Audio Perspective 2 Graphenes; Fyne Audio 703s; Symposium Svelte Plus & Ultra Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata Denali 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.

    www.getbettersound.com

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    624

    Re: Audio Memory

    Mr Peabody,

    Thanks for expressing this in better terms than I’ve been able to on the other thread.

    When you get the image ingrained a certain way, that’s what you want - at least I do. While our audio memory of a single event might fade fairly quickly, I don’t believe when you listen to the same record or CD multiple times it fades.

    It’s like riding a bike. If you’ve heard the same song 1000 times on the same system, then you have heard it a particular way all those times. You’ll know when you hear it that way again - or if it has changed.
    Sincerely,

    Calvin

  4. #4

    Re: Audio Memory

    Once one becomes aware that memory is nothing like a bit for bit perfect digital copy stored on a hard drive or a book in some library, one realizes that memories are a very abstract concept and are less than reliable.

    There are tons of articles on the concept of "false memories". "In psychology, a false memory is a phenomenon where a person recalls something that did not happen or recalls it differently from the way it actually happened. Suggestibility, activation of associated information, the incorporation of misinformation and source misattribution have been suggested to be several mechanisms underlying a variety of types of false memory phenomena."

    When it comes to sound, I believe the memories should have a stronger and more reliable neural network as an instinct of survival. One would not want to confuse the roar of a tiger from behind the brush with anything else that would suggest it is safe to be there... But I am not a scientist so my knowledge on the subject is very limited.

    Here is a good video on the concept of memory. Robert Bilder - How Does Memory Work? - YouTube
    Serge

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    St. Louis, MO, USA
    Posts
    1,846

    Re: Audio Memory

    I know what you mean. I remember when Ifirst heard one of the local radio stations who began playing mp3, the familiar songs just didn't sound right, almost like some type of remix. I remember a friend brought over a recorded CD of Pink Floyd DSOTM, I played it for him but had to mention something sounded off, or not the way I was used to hearing it, he admitted his friend who made the CD did some EQ'ing on it.

    To be honest, when I listen to ripped or streaming Tidal the difference isn't that big for me. But my LP playing has gone way down, part to my vision and part not wanting to take the time to clean and such anymore. I think the difference would be more heard between digital and LP, no matter how good the digital is, it's just two different mediums and too many variables for there not to be a detectable difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
    Mr Peabody,

    Thanks for expressing this in better terms than I’ve been able to on the other thread.

    When you get the image ingrained a certain way, that’s what you want - at least I do. While our audio memory of a single event might fade fairly quickly, I don’t believe when you listen to the same record or CD multiple times it fades.

    It’s like riding a bike. If you’ve heard the same song 1000 times on the same system, then you have heard it a particular way all those times. You’ll know when you hear it that way again - or if it has changed.
    Aurender ACS10 w/AQ Diamond,
    Mark Levinson #526, Coda Continuum 8 , JBL 4367's
    Clearaudio Performance DC w/Maestro cart
    All Clarus Crimson cabling, AC to binding post. Surgex
    HT: Marantz AV8003, Linn 5125, JBL SAM3ha, Revel s30,
    SVS PC13 Ultra
    Transparent, Analysis Plus & Tributaries. PS Audio filtering
    Sony XBR-75X940D & BDP
    Parasound P6, Coda CSX, Artisan speakers

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    624

    Re: Audio Memory

    That none of us remember a bit for bit “perfect” digital copy of anything is a given, but we do recall what a song meant to us at a certain moment, the details that made an impression upon us, the emotions it captured, and when it is reproduced today and it brings all this and much more back, that is part and parcel of our audio memory at work.

    Music isn’t just about an audio signal, it affects the entire individual, our entire being.

    As far as psycho measurements - “Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." – William Bruce Cameron.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Once one becomes aware that memory is nothing like a bit for bit perfect digital copy stored on a hard drive or a book in some library, one realizes that memories are a very abstract concept and are less than reliable.

    There are tons of articles on the concept of "false memories". "In psychology, a false memory is a phenomenon where a person recalls something that did not happen or recalls it differently from the way it actually happened. Suggestibility, activation of associated information, the incorporation of misinformation and source misattribution have been suggested to be several mechanisms underlying a variety of types of false memory phenomena."

    When it comes to sound, I believe the memories should have a stronger and more reliable neural network as an instinct of survival. One would not want to confuse the roar of a tiger from behind the brush with anything else that would suggest it is safe to be there... But I am not a scientist so my knowledge on the subject is very limited.

    Here is a good video on the concept of memory. Robert Bilder - How Does Memory Work? - YouTube
    Sincerely,

    Calvin

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    St. Louis, MO, USA
    Posts
    1,846

    Re: Audio Memory

    I have to agree with you for the most part, just as multiple eye witnesses stories will vary when telling what they saw.

    I have forgotten some details of memories over years but to my knowledge have never had a false memory. I have had family members retell an event I was at as well and say things that didn't happen, whether they forgot and attempted to fill in or they actually remember it that way I don't know.

    I believe if possible I could put a system together of exact components I have heard together in the past, let someone listen for a while without me there and I could tell them accurately the character of that system they just heard without me having to hear it again.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Once one becomes aware that memory is nothing like a bit for bit perfect digital copy stored on a hard drive or a book in some library, one realizes that memories are a very abstract concept and are less than reliable.

    There are tons of articles on the concept of "false memories". "In psychology, a false memory is a phenomenon where a person recalls something that did not happen or recalls it differently from the way it actually happened. Suggestibility, activation of associated information, the incorporation of misinformation and source misattribution have been suggested to be several mechanisms underlying a variety of types of false memory phenomena."

    When it comes to sound, I believe the memories should have a stronger and more reliable neural network as an instinct of survival. One would not want to confuse the roar of a tiger from behind the brush with anything else that would suggest it is safe to be there... But I am not a scientist so my knowledge on the subject is very limited.

    Here is a good video on the concept of memory. Robert Bilder - How Does Memory Work? - YouTube
    Aurender ACS10 w/AQ Diamond,
    Mark Levinson #526, Coda Continuum 8 , JBL 4367's
    Clearaudio Performance DC w/Maestro cart
    All Clarus Crimson cabling, AC to binding post. Surgex
    HT: Marantz AV8003, Linn 5125, JBL SAM3ha, Revel s30,
    SVS PC13 Ultra
    Transparent, Analysis Plus & Tributaries. PS Audio filtering
    Sony XBR-75X940D & BDP
    Parasound P6, Coda CSX, Artisan speakers

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    624

    Re: Audio Memory

    I agree for the most part, but I still hear a difference in my CDs and streaming. It may be my DAC / SACD on the Luxman. It is good IMO.

    I’m still considering a turntable. My eyes are getting bad though (numerous surgeries), so I’m afraid that I’ll scratch the records and just end up using them as frisbees. But I still remember that sound. I still want it back. I’m considering MSB. It should get me close to a turntable - from what I understand as close as one can get to a high end table without purchasing one. I probably am going too far with that statement, but it gets the point across.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    I know what you mean. I remember when Ifirst heard one of the local radio stations who began playing mp3, the familiar songs just didn't sound right, almost like some type of remix. I remember a friend brought over a recorded CD of Pink Floyd DSOTM, I played it for him but had to mention something sounded off, or not the way I was used to hearing it, he admitted his friend who made the CD did some EQ'ing on it.

    To be honest, when I listen to ripped or streaming Tidal the difference isn't that big for me. But my LP playing has gone way down, part to my vision and part not wanting to take the time to clean and such anymore. I think the difference would be more heard between digital and LP, no matter how good the digital is, it's just two different mediums and too many variables for there not to be a detectable difference.
    Sincerely,

    Calvin

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    St. Louis, MO, USA
    Posts
    1,846

    Re: Audio Memory

    You have the same ACS10 so your streaming should be pretty good. Are you using the Luxman as the DAC for the ACS10?

    You will be surprised at how easy it is playing LP's with low vision. My issue is seeing the jacket to pick out what to play. I use my left hand to find the edge of the spinning LP and bring the arm over with my right. You can tell where to sit the needle, most LP's have some type of elevated part around the outer edge. I've had years of developing my technic though, LOL I suspect people hold their breath as I lower the arm since not using the lift but it's more accurate by touch than estimated where to drop the lift.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
    I agree for the most part, but I still hear a difference in my CDs and streaming. It may be my DAC / SACD on the Luxman. It is good IMO.

    I’m still considering a turntable. My eyes are getting bad though (numerous surgeries), so I’m afraid that I’ll scratch the records and just end up using them as frisbees. But I still remember that sound. I still want it back. I’m considering MSB. It should get me close to a turntable - from what I understand as close as one can get to a high end table without purchasing one. I probably am going to far with a that statement, but it gets the point across.
    Aurender ACS10 w/AQ Diamond,
    Mark Levinson #526, Coda Continuum 8 , JBL 4367's
    Clearaudio Performance DC w/Maestro cart
    All Clarus Crimson cabling, AC to binding post. Surgex
    HT: Marantz AV8003, Linn 5125, JBL SAM3ha, Revel s30,
    SVS PC13 Ultra
    Transparent, Analysis Plus & Tributaries. PS Audio filtering
    Sony XBR-75X940D & BDP
    Parasound P6, Coda CSX, Artisan speakers

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    624

    Re: Audio Memory

    Well that is cool to know. Maybe all is not lost for a turntable. I didn’t think of using that methodology. Thanks.

    I have the ACS10 connected to the N100H and stream thru the N100H. I was streaming thru the ACS10 for a while. But found the quality go up slightly - very slightly - by doing the chain I now have, which was suggested by Mike. I have plans to upgrade to a N30 when it comes out, but will still have it hooked thru the ACS10. Well I should say that is my intention. I may change my mind after I hear it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    You have the same ACS10 so your streaming should be pretty good. Are you using the Luxman as the DAC for the ACS10?

    You will be surprised at how easy it is playing LP's with low vision. My issue is seeing the jacket to pick out what to play. I use my left hand to find the edge of the spinning LP and bring the arm over with my right. You can tell where to sit the needle, most LP's have some type of elevated part around the outer edge. I've had years of developing my technic though, LOL I suspect people hold their breath as I lower the arm since not using the lift but it's more accurate by touch than estimated where to drop the lift.
    Sincerely,

    Calvin

  11. #11

    Re: Audio Memory

    Besides the blind test in which a listener is supposed to be able to tell a difference between components/cables being switched, what is even more interesting is that very often when NOTHING is changed, the listener claims to have heard a difference. I have ran this experiment many times with friends often asking them to describe what changed and they will in detail... Except NOTHING was changed. What does that tell us about a memory?
    Serge

  12. #12

    Re: Audio Memory

    Quote Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
    That none of us remember a bit for bit “perfect” digital copy of anything is a given, but we do recall what a song meant to us at a certain moment, the details that made an impression upon us, the emotions it captured, and when it is reproduced today and it brings all this and much more back, that is part and parcel of our audio memory at work.

    Music isn’t just about an audio signal, it affects the entire individual, our entire being.

    As far as psycho measurements - “Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." – William Bruce Cameron.
    I would agree and even go as far as saying that the emotional response is what makes the memory stronger and long term. We seldom forget an emotionally significant moment and can describe it in great detail but try describing a non eventful day from last week or a month or your 6th grade history teacher... Unless there was a strong emotion attached, chances are, it is gone forever.

    The human brain is very impressive with the amount of connections or switches that form memories, we have more of them in our brain than all the computers on this planet. But remembering what one had for breakfast exactly 21 days ago is not something many would be capable of. In fact even our processing power and cognitive function when it comes to recollection is so much slower than our predecessors. Check this out! Chimpanzees destroy humans in memory test... Chimp vs Human! | Memory Test | BBC Earth - YouTube
    Serge

  13. #13

    Re: Audio Memory

    I remember when I was a kid and I had a Waltham like this

    Music Centre - Stereo Cassette AM/FM Radio Waltham Electroni

    and I frequently visited home appliance stores in my town, which was where we found those vintage complete systems from Pioneer, Sony, Marantz, Akay, Schneider etc. There was even a store that always had a loudspeaker at the entrance door, facing the street. And that made a 13 or 14 years old kid stop to listen and dream.
    And one day my father, so generous attending the difficulties, decided to spend almost 3 salaries to buy me a complete system from Pioneer (yes, he likes me! ). And I happily lived for several years with that system.
    But the same way we grow and lose innocence and the knowledge makes us anguished about our own existence (happy are the poor in spirit because the kingdom of heaven is theirs), I also tasted the poison of the permanent search for something better, for a more complete sound. And it still lasts today.
    But interestingly, the audio memory tells me that I was happier at the time with my Pioneer that played from fado to heavy metal, and this without ever complaining about the recordings.


    A few days ago a friend who hadn't seen in 15 years called me. His first words were: do you know who's talking? And I answered the name right away and he smiled...

  14. #14

    Re: Audio Memory

    I think what people refer to as aural memory, is the level of accuracy over time.

    The questions is, how well and how accurately can you differentiate between small details. E.g. when switching a cable or adding a tweak, when comparing it to another similar thing in let’s say two weeks, a month, a year. Would you be able to pick out that minor detail, if you heard it in another context?

    I think the point is, for e.g. our visual sense it’s easier to memorize accurately, to remember, and apply it. You would recognize the Mona Lisa anywhere, or pick up the setup of the Last Supper in a different context. With aural memories perhaps less accurately so.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    “Life’s too short to listen to bad audio.”

    Big rig: Brinkmann Taurus DD TT + 12.1 arm + Lyra Etna Lambda SL MC + HRS M3X2/ Cardas Clear Beyond phono/ Stillpoints LPI/ Soulution 520 preamp with phono/ Synology NAS with Roon + HD Plex linear PSU + Shunyata HD/ AQ Vodka RJ45 + Aqvox Network Switch SE + AQ Diamond RJ45 into DAC/ Brinkmann Nyquist MK II/ Soulution 511/ Cardas Clear Beyond ICs/ Semi-active Lansche Audio 4.2 LS/ Inakustik Reference LS 4004 AIR/ 2x Audioquest Thunder HD for LS/ Audioquest Niagara 5000/ Shunyata AlphaHC (x2)+Alpha+Alpha Analogue+Alpha Digital/ Finite Elemente Pagode/ Stillpoints Ultra SS.

    Small rig: Naim UnitiServe/ Curious USB/ Tidal/ Linn Klimax DS3/ Shunyata Power cable/ Pass Labs INT-60/ Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II/ HiD Diamond 8/ Harbeth 30.2 40th Anniversary/ Shunyata Venom EU7 & Venom 3 HD.

    HP rig: MacBookAir/ Tidal/ Auralic Gemini 2000/ Sbooster LPSU/ Audeze LCD-2 Classic + WyWires Red/ Shunyata HD/ Shunyata Hydra 2/ Shunyata Venom.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    624

    Re: Audio Memory

    Decades ago: I'll never forget the sound of some huge Wilson speakers (WAMMs I believe) playing Hotel California in Atlanta, Ga. The dealer was great. We listened to the song over and over. A simple CD - my CD. The detail was absolutely amazing.

    I've never heard that song reproduced the same way since. Even other Wilson speakers haven't lived up to the task - yet. Of course, it's the whole chain that produced the sound, not just the speakers.

    I don't wake up every morning having to rediscover the same detail I heard on a song 10 years ago. I don't have to rediscover it, as I never forgot it - the memory is still there.

    Perhaps it is the way that we listen that makes the difference. Everyone listens, but there are different degrees of listening. Some make mental notes of what they should hear on track XYZ at a certain time. They listen for certain details - here comes that piano note, the sax, etc.... Others simply don't. Nothing wrong either way, they are just different ways of listening.

    But the one that does make these mental notes (and we all do to some extent, but some more so than others) burns in a certain image of a song. And once that image is burned in you (at least I) don't want to settle for anything less. And please don't add to it. I don't like many remasters.
    Sincerely,

    Calvin

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    chicago burbs
    Posts
    325

    Re: Audio Memory

    listening for specific details between speakers is easy, components are different as I can listen to multiple amps that all sound the same to me before finding one I can hear differences in. As to taking those listening memories on the road? specific details seem to travel, subtle changes not so much.
    Meridian dsp8000 se upgrade, meridian 218 zone controller, Paradigm Persona 7f, Hegel h360, rega jupiter, roon nucleus, revox tuner.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Palm Coast, FL 'The Hammock'
    Posts
    4,352

    Re: Audio Memory

    Quote Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
    Decades ago: I'll never forget the sound of some huge Wilson speakers (WAMMs I believe) playing Hotel California in Atlanta, Ga. The dealer was great. We listened to the song over and over. A simple CD - my CD. The detail was absolutely amazing.

    I've never heard that song reproduced the same way since. Even other Wilson speakers haven't lived up to the task - yet. Of course, it's the whole chain that produced the sound, not just the speakers.

    I don't wake up every morning having to rediscover the same detail I heard on a song 10 years ago. I don't have to rediscover it, as I never forgot it - the memory is still there.

    Perhaps it is the way that we listen that makes the difference. Everyone listens, but there are different degrees of listening. Some make mental notes of what they should hear on track XYZ at a certain time. They listen for certain details - here comes that piano note, the sax, etc.... Others simply don't. Nothing wrong either way, they are just different ways of listening.

    But the one that does make these mental notes (and we all do to some extent, but some more so than others) burns in a certain image of a song. And once that image is burned in you (at least I) don't want to settle for anything less. And please don't add to it. I don't like many remasters.
    I don't wake up every morning having to rediscover the same detail I heard on a song 10 years ago. I don't have to rediscover it, as I never forgot it - the memory is still there.
    Same here. Some days I can sing word for word old CCR songs, or old Zombie's and/or Vanilla Fudge songs. My wife knows all the Elvis songs word for word. So her memory is spot on at 62.

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    1,966

    Re: Audio Memory

    IMO repetition of playback burns in the mind.

    Growing up, it was the same rotation on all types of playback.

    You’ll know when a voice is more prominent, a guitar more alive, the attack or decay of drums, percussion.

    When it’s better, it’s better!

    Moving forward to critical listening, I break down tracks and listen to specifics for absolute certainty that a tweak, cable or whatever performs or does not.

    I’m confident in what I hear, or don’t.




    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
    Source Analog: Kuzma Stabi R w/4point 11 arm | Kuzma 50 Cartridge
    Source Digital: Aurender N10 | Brinkmann Nyquist MK II
    Amplification: Dan D’Agostino Momentum HD and M400’s | Boulder 508
    Speakers: Wilson Alexias
    Cabling: Nordost Leif, Norse, V2 and Odin
    Power and Isolation: Audio-Ultra Home & Room Power Foundation Performance Package with StromTank S1000 | HRS









  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    St. Louis, MO, USA
    Posts
    1,846

    Re: Audio Memory

    That is a very good point about different degrees of listening. I also think this is why DBT is useless unless it's done with those used to listening and able to detect changes. No offense to anyone but I can't understand how someone cannot hear differences in amps. Some brands are some similar and may make it difficult but, for instance, a person should be able to hear the difference between two very different sounds like Pass vs Hegel, or Bryston vs Mac etc.

    A small group of us got together at a friends house to listen to his system, on the first song it sounded like mono but I wasn't familiar with the song, the second song sounded mono but no one said anything, finally I spoke up and asked about it. Sure enough, the system had somehow been mono and he fixed the issue. It made for a laugh but why was I the only one to notice.
    Aurender ACS10 w/AQ Diamond,
    Mark Levinson #526, Coda Continuum 8 , JBL 4367's
    Clearaudio Performance DC w/Maestro cart
    All Clarus Crimson cabling, AC to binding post. Surgex
    HT: Marantz AV8003, Linn 5125, JBL SAM3ha, Revel s30,
    SVS PC13 Ultra
    Transparent, Analysis Plus & Tributaries. PS Audio filtering
    Sony XBR-75X940D & BDP
    Parasound P6, Coda CSX, Artisan speakers

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    St. Louis, MO, USA
    Posts
    1,846

    Re: Audio Memory

    I think it says nothing about memory and more to human nature. Just like when Jay Lenno used to take the camera to the street and ask about a news story or event that never happened but people acted like they knew what he was asking about and even commenting on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Besides the blind test in which a listener is supposed to be able to tell a difference between components/cables being switched, what is even more interesting is that very often when NOTHING is changed, the listener claims to have heard a difference. I have ran this experiment many times with friends often asking them to describe what changed and they will in detail... Except NOTHING was changed. What does that tell us about a memory?
    Aurender ACS10 w/AQ Diamond,
    Mark Levinson #526, Coda Continuum 8 , JBL 4367's
    Clearaudio Performance DC w/Maestro cart
    All Clarus Crimson cabling, AC to binding post. Surgex
    HT: Marantz AV8003, Linn 5125, JBL SAM3ha, Revel s30,
    SVS PC13 Ultra
    Transparent, Analysis Plus & Tributaries. PS Audio filtering
    Sony XBR-75X940D & BDP
    Parasound P6, Coda CSX, Artisan speakers

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,248

    Re: Audio Memory

    Clearly there is expectation bias when you ask people what changed when you fake changing gear.

    I am not a big believer that you need to do a double blind test to discern changes when comparing gear. I review gear for Frank Van Alstine on the AC forum. I take his amps, preamps and DAC's and compare them to 2 systems in my house and invite friends over and occasionally bring the gear to a friends and can easily pick out changes and describe the differences. Friends also bring their gear to my house and we compare and can all hear the same differences. USB cables were an eye opener and all 4 of us heard the same differences between 4 cables. We even compared the same recordings in FLAC and WAV. The differences were subtle but we all preferred WAV. This was done as a blind test. Now my friends are seasoned audio people who know how to listen and what to listen for.

    Back to the original post. I do think that there is audio memory but it does not fade as quickly as some people say or at least it does not for me. I do believe that if the differences are subtle that it fades more quickly.
    My Gear- Mains System-Pass X250 amp, BAT VK-51se preamp, Luxman DA-06 DAC, Magnepan 1.6's, Thorens TD-145 TT, Dual Martin Logan Subs, Vintage Luxman T-110 Tuner, Other systems- Parasound A21 amp,Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid tube DAC and Preamp, Magnepan MMG's, Monitor Audio S1's, PSB B6's, Def Tech Pro Monitor 1000's, Velodyne sub, Adcom GFR-700 AVR, Music Hall 25.2 modified CDP, Cables by Cardas Parsec, AQ Columbia DBS 72v, Wire World.

  22. #22

    Re: Audio Memory

    I see folks here complaining about their poor vision as a result of aging. Yet nobody mentions their hearing as if that has not changed in the 40 years since they first heard that sound that became engrained in their memory.
    So if today that person were able to find a system that reminds him of what he heard 40 years ago, obviously the actual sound of todays system cannot be the same of that of yesteryear simply because the person's hearing has changed (even if their memory has not)! That is a major problem of subjective listening: everybody hears whatever they think they are hearing regardless of the actual sound.

  23. #23

    Re: Audio Memory

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    I see folks here complaining about their poor vision as a result of aging. Yet nobody mentions their hearing as if that has not changed in the 40 years since they first heard that sound that became engrained in their memory.
    So if today that person were able to find a system that reminds him of what he heard 40 years ago, obviously the actual sound of todays system cannot be the same of that of yesteryear simply because the person's hearing has changed (even if their memory has not)! That is a major problem of subjective listening: everybody hears whatever they think they are hearing regardless of the actual sound.
    The hearing fluctuates even during the day, not to mention the steep notch filter hearing loss as well as the upper spectrum loss as one gets older. The 10-12KHz cutoff is quite the norm after 50 yrs of age or even younger for some. That's the fun part of this hobby, no need to engage in blind listening tests, those just destroy the illusions we as audiophiles create and that's no fun at all. Bias is very much what determines what we hear and confirmation bias is very strong indeed. That cable sounds bright, that amp sounds warm, that preamp has tons of resolution...
    That is exactly what we try to listen for and that will be exactly what one hears first.

    No bias? Uneventful listening and I have proved this many times to my friends. Not sure if proving that point is the main objective though. It is a hobby and if one "hears" what they want to hear, even if is just an "illusion", once heard, it can not be unheard, for better or for worse.

    The mood is also a big determining factor. Sit down to listen with passion and in a good mood, everything sounds great, bad mood, cranky, distracted, the system sounds like crap today... Need to upgrade a few cables here and there and that $8,000 power conditioner is exactly what will fix this crappy sound...
    Serge

  24. #24

    Re: Audio Memory

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    The hearing fluctuates even during the day, not to mention the steep notch filter hearing loss as well as the upper spectrum loss as one gets older. The 10-12KHz cutoff is quite the norm after 50 yrs of age or even younger for some. That's the fun part of this hobby, no need to engage in blind listening tests, those just destroy the illusions we as audiophiles create and that's no fun at all. Bias is very much what determines what we hear and confirmation bias is very strong indeed. That cable sounds bright, that amp sounds warm, that preamp has tons of resolution...
    That is exactly what we try to listen for and that will be exactly what one hears first.

    No bias? Uneventful listening and I have proved this many times to my friends. Not sure if proving that point is the main objective though. It is a hobby and if one "hears" what they want to hear, even if is just an "illusion", once heard, it can not be unheard, for better or for worse.

    The mood is also a big determining factor. Sit down to listen with passion and in a good mood, everything sounds great, bad mood, cranky, distracted, the system sounds like crap today... Need to upgrade a few cables here and there and that $8,000 power conditioner is exactly what will fix this crappy sound...
    Of course! And don’t forget the green marker and the rock! Audio Memory

  25. #25

    Re: Audio Memory

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Of course! And don’t forget the green marker and the rock! Audio Memory
    Oh boy, I've painted my fair share of CDs and charged those green glow in the dark CD mats with black light... Of course we always heard the difference with my friends! Those things rocked..... until a few blind tests proved us wrong but it is difficult to give up on the idea once it is implanted in the head
    Serge

  26. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    624

    Re: Audio Memory

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    I see folks here complaining about their poor vision as a result of aging. Yet nobody mentions their hearing as if that has not changed in the 40 years since they first heard that sound that became engrained in their memory.
    So if today that person were able to find a system that reminds him of what he heard 40 years ago, obviously the actual sound of todays system cannot be the same of that of yesteryear simply because the person's hearing has changed (even if their memory has not)! That is a major problem of subjective listening: everybody hears whatever they think they are hearing regardless of the actual sound.
    Yes our hearing does change and that’s why I believe our systems often change as well. For me, I’ll never get back my (or my father’s) old systems. I’ll never hear that Wilson WAMM system in my living room. And I’m now in a different home then what I heard all those systems in, etc. (and the Wilson system was at a dealer).

    But today I do have numerous other options to help get me back to the audio memories that I still desire. With the proper modifications it doesn’t have to be the same equipment, as matter a fact it probably shouldn’t be after 40 years and a different listening room. Another system may still give me the audio memories I remember.
    Sincerely,

    Calvin

  27. #27
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    London Canada
    Posts
    26

    Re: Audio Memory

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Besides the blind test in which a listener is supposed to be able to tell a difference between components/cables being switched, what is even more interesting is that very often when NOTHING is changed, the listener claims to have heard a difference. I have ran this experiment many times with friends often asking them to describe what changed and they will in detail... Except NOTHING was changed. What does that tell us about a memory?
    It probably suggests the game is rigged against them. There is already a preset expectation that something will be different . So , and I’m guessing here, the bias is to actually hear or perhaps listen differently.

    Maybe off topic maybe not.... but

    I was fortunate a couple of weeks ago to to receive a completely unprompted phone call from what what phone described as an “unknown number”. Within 3 words I knew exactly who it was and I had not spoke to him for approx 15 years since he moved to Australia .

    So 15 years removed with the challenged sonics of a phone call from Melbourne to Canada...

    I’d say by that the auditory memory is pretty dam good.

    More on topic.

    I find differences in my system rather easy to distinguish, to determine if they are to my preference is another matter all together. I let my emotional involvement (and whatever causes that within us) determine if a change is preferable and that typically takes some time.

  28. #28

    Re: Audio Memory

    Quote Originally Posted by ADCO View Post
    It probably suggests the game is rigged against them. There is already a preset expectation that something will be different . So , and I’m guessing here, the bias is to actually hear or perhaps listen differently.

    Maybe off topic maybe not.... but

    I was fortunate a couple of weeks ago to to receive a completely unprompted phone call from what what phone described as an “unknown number”. Within 3 words I knew exactly who it was and I had not spoke to him for approx 15 years since he moved to Australia .

    So 15 years removed with the challenged sonics of a phone call from Melbourne to Canada...

    I’d say by that the auditory memory is pretty dam good.

    More on topic.

    I find differences in my system rather easy to distinguish, to determine if they are to my preference is another matter all together. I let my emotional involvement (and whatever causes that within us) determine if a change is preferable and that typically takes some time.
    From an article: Makes sense as it is part of the survival mechanism.

    Interestingly, the human ear is more sensitive to certain octaves in the musical spectrum than to others. The ear is tuned more toward the midrange frequencies, where speech and voice communication occur (I guess we’re still cave people), than to the outer octaves of low bass and high-frequency musical harmonics. As a result, very small energy changes in the midrange frequencies cause much more noticeable effects than do larger changes in the very low and/or very high frequency ranges. So what is bass? What is treble? Oh, and what about midrange? Let’s break them down right here.
    Serge

  29. #29

    Re: Audio Memory

    Audio memory is fixed by the emotional impression that a given moment left in us. I have much better sound today than I did with my Pioneer. And yet, the memories of Pioneer are happier. Maybe that's why some audiophiles goes after vintage products. Maybe because they remember being happy with them before.

    It is curious that over time we will lose hearing qualities and we will hear less but at the same time we are increasing our level of demand, so we want to hear more!

  30. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,248

    Re: Audio Memory

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    Audio memory is fixed by the emotional impression that a given moment left in us. I have much better sound today than I did with my Pioneer. And yet, the memories of Pioneer are happier. Maybe that's why some audiophiles goes after vintage products. Maybe because they remember being happy with them before.

    It is curious that over time we will lose hearing qualities and we will hear less but at the same time we are increasing our level of demand, so we want to hear more!
    I liked my 15wpc 1970's Pioneer receiver, JVC TT with my Altec Lansing Model 3 speakers better because it was all I could afford and it sounded great to me at the time. I never was critical of the sound or searching for the holy grail of audio gear. Things were simpler.
    My Gear- Mains System-Pass X250 amp, BAT VK-51se preamp, Luxman DA-06 DAC, Magnepan 1.6's, Thorens TD-145 TT, Dual Martin Logan Subs, Vintage Luxman T-110 Tuner, Other systems- Parasound A21 amp,Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid tube DAC and Preamp, Magnepan MMG's, Monitor Audio S1's, PSB B6's, Def Tech Pro Monitor 1000's, Velodyne sub, Adcom GFR-700 AVR, Music Hall 25.2 modified CDP, Cables by Cardas Parsec, AQ Columbia DBS 72v, Wire World.

  31. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    St. Louis, MO, USA
    Posts
    1,846

    Re: Audio Memory

    Whether vision, hearing or other sense, if one gets weak it has no baring on the health of the others. Hence, if my vision is bad doesn't mean my hearing will necessarily get weaker, in fact, since one may rely on that sense more due to one becoming worse an argument could be made if vision gets weak the hearing becomes more acute. Maybe not by measurement but by reliance and necessity.

    I've had something for music from a young child, beginning with a mere record player. I was not happier with any of those entry systems. If I didn't think I was improving I passed. Some of the higher end gear I owned in the past I could easily live with but choices had to be made. I still like and respect many of the brands I owned in the past. Point is I wasn't changing to be changing, I changed because the improvement was large enough to me to spend the money necessary to keep what I was evaluating.

    I think the phone call example was very relevant.

    Even if our hearing isn't exactly the same today as 15 years ago, the sound of a 15 year old amp shouldn't change that much. I think what I heard 15 or 20 years ago would still be close to what I would hear today. One example, Maybe more than 20 years ago I heard an Audio Research system driving some Martin Logan ReQuests, I believe I'd hear the same life like presence today as I did then. It was like the artist was there in the flesh. Krell of that day would still have the same iron grip control and bass power. Things like that.
    Aurender ACS10 w/AQ Diamond,
    Mark Levinson #526, Coda Continuum 8 , JBL 4367's
    Clearaudio Performance DC w/Maestro cart
    All Clarus Crimson cabling, AC to binding post. Surgex
    HT: Marantz AV8003, Linn 5125, JBL SAM3ha, Revel s30,
    SVS PC13 Ultra
    Transparent, Analysis Plus & Tributaries. PS Audio filtering
    Sony XBR-75X940D & BDP
    Parasound P6, Coda CSX, Artisan speakers

  32. #32

    Re: Audio Memory

    There is a big difference between recognizing someone’s voice over the telephone after many years. It happens to me quite frequently.

    That’s because it is not only the timbre that one remembers but the cadence, the accent, even the idiosyncratic way a person talks. Every person has a “signature” sound. Using that as proof that one’s 70 year old hearing is the same as that of a 30 year old makes no sense to me.

    In jazz, for example sax players also have a signature. John Coltrane sounds very different than any other player. Same applies to Eric Dolphy, Archie Shepp, Ben Webster, etc. Even with my old hearing, I can tell each of those players apart with no problem. But I will never claim to have the same hearing ability of my 30 year old self.

  33. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    St. Louis, MO, USA
    Posts
    1,846

    Re: Audio Memory

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    There is a big difference between recognizing someone’s voice overIt happens to me quite frequently.
    > Is it? I don't see how.

    That’s because it is not only the timbre that one remembers but the cadence, the accent, even the idiosyncratic way a person talks. Every person has a “signature” sound. Using that as proof that one’s 70 year old hearing is the same as that of a 30 year old makes no sense to me.

    And, why can't someone remember the timbre and other characters of a sound system? You either misunderstood or reaching, no one said recognizing a friend is related to hearing stability over years. Nobody's hearing ages the same either.

    In jazz, for example sax players also have a signature. John Coltrane sounds very different than any other player. Same applies to Eric Dolphy, Archie Shepp, Ben Webster, etc. Even with my old hearing, I can tell each of those players apart with no problem. But I will never claim to have the same hearing ability of my 30 year old self.
    Interesting how you claim to recognize the characteristics of a musician however want to deny a sound system would have nothing to recognize aurally about it.
    Aurender ACS10 w/AQ Diamond,
    Mark Levinson #526, Coda Continuum 8 , JBL 4367's
    Clearaudio Performance DC w/Maestro cart
    All Clarus Crimson cabling, AC to binding post. Surgex
    HT: Marantz AV8003, Linn 5125, JBL SAM3ha, Revel s30,
    SVS PC13 Ultra
    Transparent, Analysis Plus & Tributaries. PS Audio filtering
    Sony XBR-75X940D & BDP
    Parasound P6, Coda CSX, Artisan speakers

  34. #34

    Audio Memory

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    Interesting how you claim to recognize the characteristics of a musician however want to deny a sound system would have nothing to recognize aurally about it.
    I can recognize any of those jazz players even when being played on a cheap car radio. And I can also recognize the voices of old friends via a regular telephone (which I m sure everyone agrees does not qualify as a decent sound system).

  35. #35
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Location
    Scottsdale
    Posts
    5

    Re: Audio Memory

    Audio memory is very short. In the old days when I was younger I needed a series of codes to help me diagnose broadcasting equipment. It is not something I rely on heavily to analyze sounds.

  36. #36

    Re: Audio Memory

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hart View Post
    Audio memory is very short. In the old days when I was younger I needed a series of codes to help me diagnose broadcasting equipment. It is not something I rely on heavily to analyze sounds.
    Sounds to me that you rely on some kind of scientific (I.e., repeatable) measurements.

  37. #37
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    The Neutral Zone
    Posts
    239

    Re: Audio Memory

    I was at an Audio Engineering Society convention in Chicago and participated in a demonstration where we were asked to express a preference for one of two guitars that were played by the same musician behind an acoustically transparent screen. No amplification.

    One of the guitars was a department store Yamaha, the other a custom guitar built for Andres Segovia.

    There were several trials where a short composition was played on each guitar. The audience applauded after each piece was played.

    In every case the audience preferred the guitar that was played second. Why? The moderator noted two things; order bias, where people tend to prefer the most recent stimulus, and the effect of white noise of clapping ‘resetting’ your hearing between songs.

    Fascinating.

    So while I do believe there is Audio memory, many outside factors and biases cloud the picture.
    Tom

    Audio:
    Amati Futura Mains
    Amati Homage VOX Center,
    Proac Response 1sc Rears,
    Three MC2301's for L,C,R
    MC 602 for the rears
    C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 77
    Nottingham Dais with Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation
    SurfacePro 3, JRiver, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC

    Video:
    MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.

    Lake House:
    Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 80, Rega P3

    OnDeck:
    McIntosh MAC 4300v

  38. #38

    Re: Audio Memory

    How about professional musicians, read... "violin" players not being able to recognize and preferring the sound of the modern violin to the coveted, multimillion dollar Stradivarius? It's not like they have never heard a Stradivarius before, some have even played them. Yet when blind as to which is playing, game over.... Same with wine experts, blinded, even confusing white to red wine and these are top rated critics/experts. That's a different sense though. Keeping in mind that human senses are nothing more than electrical impulses, based on which the brain creates an illusion of sight, taste, smell, hearing, touch, etc... No one sees, tastes or hears things exactly the same as the person next to him.
    Serge

  39. #39
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Location
    Scottsdale
    Posts
    5

    Re: Audio Memory

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Sounds to me that you rely on some kind of scientific (I.e., repeatable) measurements.
    Here's an example. Does a piece of equipment have pace and momentum? I play JJ Cale's debut album Naturally. Is a primitive drum machine reproduced properly? I've been testing in a similar way since the seventies.

  40. #40

    Re: Audio Memory

    "The process of how physically hearing sounds translates to experiencing sounds has been a mystery for a long time, but Harvard Medical School has begun breaking it down into its components. When the inner ear receives sounds, it triggers a reaction from the different brain cells that are responsible for transmitting the information to your brain. That triggering forms different types of patterns that, in turn, touch different parts of the brain, explaining why we associate certain sounds with certain memories and feelings."
    Serge

  41. #41
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    chicago burbs
    Posts
    325

    Re: Audio Memory

    True dat. Songs that trigger memories have little to do with fidelity tho'
    Meridian dsp8000 se upgrade, meridian 218 zone controller, Paradigm Persona 7f, Hegel h360, rega jupiter, roon nucleus, revox tuner.

AudioShark - The Best High End Audio Discussion forum.

AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.

The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.

At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.

We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!

Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com

Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.

Sincerely,
The Audioshark.org Team

Audio Memory

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •