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  1. #51
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
    I have tried regeneration and isolation transformers. The regeneration was a bust, the isolation transformer made some things better and some worse.

    More recently I have taken a more scientific approach using commercial off the shelf power line filters from Corcom and putting them in the power feeds of my gear. I measured the before/after noise using my Audio Precision System 222 up to 500 kHz and a software defined radio from 500 kHz to 10 MHz. Bottom line - they work very well keeping all the trash generated by my digital front end off of the power line. Also I have created a separate ground buss that is connected to earth through a 7 Hy inductor. That has helped as well. I am still experimenting with this.

    I am lucky in that our utilities to the house are on a single transformer I don’t share with the neighbors.
    2 questions.
    Why would an off the shelf filter work better than a purpose build one by a company dedicated to power quality. I have done the same. They absolutely block noise. And a whole lot of music. Your TV probably looks amazing.

    Second, are you floating a ground out in the yard so that a line to ground fault will never clear and leave 120 volts in your earth. Please say no. If you are, remove it. Or build a ground fault sensor into the line connected to a normally closed contact that will shut and positively bolt the ground to the service bus ground as soon as any leak from the hot is going to some place other than the neutral.

  2. #52
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    i've been done with any sort of power conditioning since i installed my 'big boy' 10WQ Equi=tech 10kva balanced isolation transformer wall panel system back in 2011.

    Wall Cabinet Systems | Equitech

    i run my whole system on that. i also have 'dirty' power outlets next to my 'clean' power outlets in my room so it's easy to always be able to compare balanced regenerated power with straight through power grid power. so far; 100% of the time it's no contest.

    i do strongly believe that power grids and solutions are not one size fits all. i happen to live in a newer housing community with modern lines and equipment, my room is in a barn, which is a separate building from my home. my home does have it's own transformer. i'm away from the city in the mountains on acreage, away from power grid polluting industry. my power comes from hydro sources and my location is relatively close to the power grid source.

    even with all those advantages (or possibly because of them), my Equi=tech made a significant improvement in lower noise, increased dynamics and increased refinement and ease. and it replaced a dedicated 70 amp line and panel already installed.

    would my Equi=tech be equally effective everywhere? no clue.

    i've had manufacturers bring their gear to my room claiming that their gear would not be helped with my Equi=tech. so we did a quick A/B. not hard to hear the advantage of the Equi=tech. interestingly, one of those events happens to be my local friend Ted Smith.......who designs the dac for PS Audio (Paul McGowan), brought his dac design over a few years back to hear in my system.

    here is Paul, mentioning Ted.

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    What made you think an Equi=Tech was needed or you had good power for all that you stated?


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  3. #53

    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    2 questions.
    Why would an off the shelf filter work better than a purpose build one by a company dedicated to power quality. I have done the same. They absolutely block noise. And a whole lot of music. Your TV probably looks amazing.
    "Off the shelf" filters are purpose built and dedicated to power quality. Corcom products are sold by Digikey.
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  4. #54
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraFast69 View Post
    What made you think an Equi=Tech was needed or you had good power for all that you stated?


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    the acoustical designer for my room build back in 2004, Chris Huston, designed mastering and recording studios and he had specd the Equi=tech for a number of them. also; my dear departed friend, Winston Ma, lived near me in my last home in Redmond, and he specd the Equi=tech for his remarkable room.

    then i did my own research and what i found was positive.

    i could not afford to include the Equi=tech in my original build budget, but did have my spot and wiring set up so i could add it later; and finally in 2011 i did have it installed. which did allow me 7 years to listen without it, and then to add it and so the effect was easy to hear.

    there are alternatives similar to the Equi=tech that are also good. but to me the issue is comparing stand alone 'small box' conditioners that plug into your 120v outlets, to whole system wired in regenerators. my Equi=tech weighs 400 pounds and is built into a wall.

  5. #55
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    2 questions.
    Why would an off the shelf filter work better than a purpose build one by a company dedicated to power quality. I have done the same. They absolutely block noise. And a whole lot of music. Your TV probably looks amazing.

    Second, are you floating a ground out in the yard so that a line to ground fault will never clear and leave 120 volts in your earth. Please say no. If you are, remove it. Or build a ground fault sensor into the line connected to a normally closed contact that will shut and positively bolt the ground to the service bus ground as soon as any leak from the hot is going to some place other than the neutral.
    1. I am using purpose built filters designed by power conditioning experts who have been doing this long before any audiophile products were being offered. I use Corcom and Schurter filters. They have had nothing but a positive impact - no issues with them blocking any audio goodness.

    2. Absolutely not. I am doing what Audioquest is doing in some of their Niagara conditioners - adding a large inductor from house earth to 'equipment earth' to keep all the emi that typically gets dumped on the house earth away from the gear. This inductor is rated to handle the fault current and I have tested it multiple times.

    This didn't used to be a problem at all, when everything was analog. Now that we have digital in the mix the game has changed dramatically. This has been a fun project that has created a far better digital front end than I had before.
    Tom

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  6. #56

    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    A question for the "thinking man".

    If say a power cord could somehow change what is going on inside an electronic box such as your amp, preamp, DAC, etc. How would laboratories and government agencies such as NMI and NIST would get around that? How would any of the world's most precise instruments be trusted if a power cord could change the results?

    Don't tell me about shielding and electromagnetic radiation please, the shielded cords are used in the industrial applications. Audiophiles did not invent them.

    Read this article and just think about the accuracy of the world's most precise instruments. Team improves the world's most accurate instrument for resistance measurement

    If someone is running the most precise equipment that measures radiation doses in cancer treatment and decided to plug in a Ching Cheng power cord vs (insert your favorite) and the results are different... How does that scenario even fit into an audiophile's thinking cap?

    If you are going to respond we don't need measurements, trust your ears or get a better system, I can easily respond, trust your eyes, the earth is flat and get a better zoom camera, the earth really is flat...

    Let me know your thoughts. After reading the article, if you care to.

  7. #57
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    [QUOTE=W9TR;317305]1.

    2. Absolutely not. adding a large inductor from house earth to 'equipment earth' to keep all the emi that typically gets dumped on the house earth away from the gear. This inductor is rated to handle the fault current and I have tested it multiple times.

    What is house earth and equipment earth. I get so nervous when audiophile think they are doing something for sound and severely violate the NEC negating life and property safety. There is only 1 ground at your premise. Everything has to attach to it. If you want to choke a branch circuit with a UL listed device, that is ok.

    Environmental Potentials also makes a choke to put on branch circuit grounds. But it is all part of one common grounding system.
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  8. #58
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    That’s what I’m doing - adding a choke to the ground of a branch circuit. No NEC violation that I’m aware of.

    Here is the patent which shows a number of embodiments - one of which is used in the Audioquest Niagara power conditioners.

    US8988168B2
    Tom

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  9. #59
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    A question for the "thinking man".

    If say a power cord could somehow change what is going on inside an electronic box such as your amp, preamp, DAC, etc. How would laboratories and government agencies such as NMI and NIST would get around that? How would any of the world's most precise instruments be trusted if a power cord could change the results?

    Don't tell me about shielding and electromagnetic radiation please, the shielded cords are used in the industrial applications. Audiophiles did not invent them.

    Read this article and just think about the accuracy of the world's most precise instruments. Team improves the world's most accurate instrument for resistance measurement

    If someone is running the most precise equipment that measures radiation doses in cancer treatment and decided to plug in a Ching Cheng power cord vs (insert your favorite) and the results are different... How does that scenario even fit into an audiophile's thinking cap?

    If you are going to respond we don't need measurements, trust your ears or get a better system, I can easily respond, trust your eyes, the earth is flat and get a better zoom camera, the earth really is flat...

    Let me know your thoughts. After reading the article, if you care to.
    i see no conflict between the value of measurements and the value of our hearing.

    measurements tell us about numbers, but cannot determine music reproduction preferences. numbers cannot determine levels of musical expressiveness. numbers cannot define musical refinement. hifi related power grid products have to be technically successful and sound good too.

    the numbers do help us to improve the technical performance of gear; then final design decisions involve listening. at least for the gear i own.

    even race cars and lap times involve human interaction as the final component. who would even care about a race between machines.

  10. #60
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    [QUOTE=Kingrex;317325]
    Quote Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
    1.

    2. Absolutely not. adding a large inductor from house earth to 'equipment earth' to keep all the emi that typically gets dumped on the house earth away from the gear. This inductor is rated to handle the fault current and I have tested it multiple times.

    What is house earth and equipment earth. I get so nervous when audiophile think they are doing something for sound and severely violate the NEC negating life and property safety. There is only 1 ground at your premise. Everything has to attach to it. If you want to choke a branch circuit with a UL listed device, that is ok.

    Environmental Potentials also makes a choke to put on branch circuit grounds. But it is all part of one common grounding system.
    i do have a separate ground rod for my barn Equi=tech 10WQ isolation transformer. but it is a separate building 75 feet away from my home. my Electrical Contractor who did the install said it was proper code since it was a separate building. the regular 'dirty power' 100 amp panel in my barn for lights and HVAC does not have a separate ground rod.

  11. #61

    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    i see no conflict between the value of measurements and the value of our hearing.

    measurements tell us about numbers, but cannot determine music reproduction preferences. numbers cannot determine levels of musical expressiveness. numbers cannot define musical refinement. hifi related power grid products have to be technically successful and sound good too.

    the numbers do help us to improve the technical performance of gear; then final design decisions involve listening. at least for the gear i own.

    even race cars and lap times involve human interaction as the final component. who would even care about a race between machines.
    I am sorry, I did not understand your point at all. In the typical audiophile fashion, the conversation turns to that which is unmeasurable...

    I'll ask you to imagine a high precision electronic scale that is calibrated and finds use in a laboratory for highly precise and important scientific work.

    Except that day, the lab tech decides to substitute a power cord for another. If you are telling me that a power cord can make a difference in audio, then it can make a difference with an electronic scale...

    Circuits are different but same "type" of components inside the electronic scale as audio. Microchips, resistors, capacitors, inductors, etc.

    The scale is then used to measure precisely the amount of whatever the chemist is working on to come up with a life saving vaccine...

    The scale shows him something other than what it was calibrated for because the power cord is different.

    Can one imagine this scenario? How would any scientific standard or unit be kept if after calibrating with one power cord, the other would change that unit?

    How does any of this fit into any technology that we have accomplished with precise measurements since electricity was invented and the first power cord got the juice flowing?

    Will we ever reach mars or the moon if we keep switching power cords?

    You will still say that if we cannot measure a power cord, it still makes a difference. It is no different than the flat earth society claiming that no matter what evidence is presented, the earth is still flat. One group "hears" the difference and the other "sees" the flat horizon.

    By the way, I worked in and invested into the industry where the greatest minds design equipment that treats and saves lives. That multi-million dollar diagnostic and treatment equipment is used all over the world.

    At no point in any of the rational conversations with the engineers of these global leaders of medical equipment over the 20 years, have I ever heard any of them agree with my statements about power cords or cables in general. Yes, I have asked... When one is buying equipment costing millions of dollars, a fancy power cord would be the least of their concerns if they improved anything.

  12. #62

    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    ^I thought Shunyata was selling their power cords into the medical imaging community.
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  13. #63

    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    ^I thought Shunyata was selling their power cords into the medical imaging community.
    Shunyata can sell them anywhere they want. I even have one in my system. An audiophile doctor can also believe what he wants and if his malpractice insurance covers non-standard equipment in a hospital setting...

    That does not negate anything I have said earlier.

    If a scientist is running spectroscopy ( the study of the interaction between matter and electromagnetic radiation as a function of the wavelength or frequency of the radiation) and a different power cord gets him a different result, we would be in trouble...

  14. #64
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    I am sorry, I did not understand your point at all.
    well.......maybe simplify and clarify your point......

  15. #65
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    [QUOTE=Mike Lavigne;317341]
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post

    i do have a separate ground rod for my barn Equi=tech 10WQ isolation transformer. but it is a separate building 75 feet away from my home. my Electrical Contractor who did the install said it was proper code since it was a separate building. the regular 'dirty power' 100 amp panel in my barn for lights and HVAC does not have a separate ground rod.
    Correct. NEC requires a ground rod be added for an outbuilding subpanel. But that geound rod is tied to the ground bus in the panel that goes back to the primary bonding and grounding at the service.

    My concern is audiophile who take the ground from their audio receptacle at the rack and do not tie it to the branch circuit ground. They instead pull a single wire out of the box, put a hole in the side of their house and take that wire to a ground rod. That is how kids, and pets die. As well as the meter reader or Concast tech.

  16. #66
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    I am sorry, I did not understand your point at all. In the typical audiophile fashion, the conversation turns to that which is unmeasurable...

    I'll ask you to imagine a high precision electronic scale that is calibrated and finds use in a laboratory for highly precise and important scientific work.

    Except that day, the lab tech decides to substitute a power cord for another. If you are telling me that a power cord can make a difference in audio, then it can make a difference with an electronic scale...

    Circuits are different but same "type" of components inside the electronic scale as audio. Microchips, resistors, capacitors, inductors, etc.

    The scale is then used to measure precisely the amount of whatever the chemist is working on to come up with a life saving vaccine...

    The scale shows him something other than what it was calibrated for because the power cord is different.

    Can one imagine this scenario? How would any scientific standard or unit be kept if after calibrating with one power cord, the other would change that unit?

    How does any of this fit into any technology that we have accomplished with precise measurements since electricity was invented and the first power cord got the juice flowing?

    Will we ever reach mars or the moon if we keep switching power cords?

    You will still say that if we cannot measure a power cord, it still makes a difference. It is no different than the flat earth society claiming that no matter what evidence is presented, the earth is still flat. One group "hears" the difference and the other "sees" the flat horizon.

    By the way, I worked in and invested into the industry where the greatest minds design equipment that treats and saves lives. That multi-million dollar diagnostic and treatment equipment is used all over the world.

    At no point in any of the rational conversations with the engineers of these global leaders of medical equipment over the 20 years, have I ever heard any of them agree with my statements about power cords or cables in general. Yes, I have asked... When one is buying equipment costing millions of dollars, a fancy power cord would be the least of their concerns if they improved anything.
    I would say that piece of scientific equipment was designed to operate on a perfect 60 herts sine wave at 120 volts. The instrument in a hospital environment with all sorts of light, motors, medical devices etc all back polluting DC and harmonics onto the power grid have created a situation where that medical device is now operating in an environment where the voltage fluctuates and the sine wave is distorted. The new power cord and a Denali are trying to get the power back to lab grade quality which is what the gear was designed to operate properly under. Without the power conditioner and cord, you are correct, the medical equipment might be giving inaccurate information.

  17. #67
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    ^I thought Shunyata was selling their power cords into the medical imaging community.
    They developed a separate line for the medical community, and incorporated the technology into their audio cables. They explained all this on their web site, but I haven't checked lately.

    It was interesting. They showed medical equipment measurements with stock power cords, and then with the Shunyata power cords. The background electrical noise dropped and the medical measurements were clearer and more precise at lower levels.
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  18. #68

    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    I would say that piece of scientific equipment was designed to operate on a perfect 60 herts sine wave at 120 volts. The instrument in a hospital environment with all sorts of light, motors, medical devices etc all back polluting DC and harmonics onto the power grid have created a situation where that medical device is now operating in an environment where the voltage fluctuates and the sine wave is distorted. The new power cord and a Denali are trying to get the power back to lab grade quality which is what the gear was designed to operate properly under. Without the power conditioner and cord, you are correct, the medical equipment might be giving inaccurate information.
    Are you serious?
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  19. #69

    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    well.......maybe simplify and clarify your point......
    I thought I was very clear. There are standards and calibrations for all kinds of equipment as well as laboratories and government labs that certify things. If a power cord made a difference, calibration or standardization for scientific work would be next to impossible. I don't think it can get any simpler than that? If a scale tells you your 1 LB weight is not 1 LB anymore because the "other" power cord is making it say so, we are all in trouble.

  20. #70

    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    I would say that piece of scientific equipment was designed to operate on a perfect 60 herts sine wave at 120 volts. The instrument in a hospital environment with all sorts of light, motors, medical devices etc all back polluting DC and harmonics onto the power grid have created a situation where that medical device is now operating in an environment where the voltage fluctuates and the sine wave is distorted. The new power cord and a Denali are trying to get the power back to lab grade quality which is what the gear was designed to operate properly under. Without the power conditioner and cord, you are correct, the medical equipment might be giving inaccurate information.
    Do you think robotic surgery equipment that can peel the skin off a grape and suture it back on is relying on anything but precise and clean power that is already built into it or does it need an XYZ power cord to do it?

  21. #71

    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    So much said -so little agreement
    Attached Images Attached Images

  22. #72
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    I thought I was very clear. There are standards and calibrations for all kinds of equipment as well as laboratories and government labs that certify things. If a power cord made a difference, calibration or standardization for scientific work would be next to impossible. I don't think it can get any simpler than that? If a scale tells you your 1 LB weight is not 1 LB anymore because the "other" power cord is making it say so, we are all in trouble.
    we are not reading a scale. or listening to numbers.

    at least i am not doing either one. if that is what you like to do, then by all means enjoy it. i'm going to listen to music.

    i have no illusions that my words are going to change any objectivist's mind.

  23. #73
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Do you think robotic surgery equipment that can peel the skin off a grape and suture it back on is relying on anything but precise and clean power that is already built into it or does it need an XYZ power cord to do it?
    Nope they do relay on some of these requirements. IEC 60601-1-2 EMC for Medical Devices: EN/IEC 60601-1-2, 4th Edition - Medical Design Briefs

    Just a sample of what medical equipment goes through to ensure patients safety and equipment performance.
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  24. #74

    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    we are not reading a scale. or listening to numbers.

    at least i am not doing either one. if that is what you like to do, then by all means enjoy it. i'm going to listen to music.

    i have no illusions that my words are going to change any objectivist's mind.
    Judging by the participation in the "what are you listening to thread" I am doing a hell of a lot more listening than others.

    I am fortunate to have freedom to do so all day long and the music is ON all day long. Power cords do not change my enjoyment one bit one way or the other.

    I like to keep things logical and rational and because I also have a background in electronics.

    I spent a few decades in the medical field with diagnostic equipment such as MRI, CAT scan, Positron Emission Tomography, Ultrasound and was even around Radiation Therapy equipment. Besides using the equipment and understanding the theory and how things work (because of the electronic background as well as medical diagnostics) I was also involved with setting up a state of the art free-standing facility that had all the top notch equipment. As such, I spend a great deal talking with representatives from companies all over the world, both equipment and radiology related PACS (picture archiving and communication system).

    Meeting with the top representatives and field engineers from Siemens, Toshiba, Hitachi, GE Medical. Over the many years, occasionally the topic of high end audio would come up....

    Who do you think is innovating and at the forefront of technology? Audio manufacturers peddling power conditioners and DACs or medical companies?

    Do you have an idea what an MRI machine consists of? You want to talk about radio transmission, cryogens, gradient coils, superconductors, nuclear magnetic resonance? This is not an overpriced DAC we are talking about here but a state of the art $2M machine with devices in some cases taking up additional rooms. State of the art DACs included.

    As I already mentioned, these conversations would simply make any of the engineers smirk.

    Here is a very simple video from a guy who understands the basics at least. There is nothing in this video to debate or debunk. It is this video vs that which is cannot be measured and trust your own ears philosophy. Just because he doesn't see value or agree with power cords, does not make him wrong and an audiophile trusting what he thinks is good memory and ears right... Do Audiophile Power Cables Make A Difference? - YouTube

  25. #75

    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by CPP View Post
    Nope they do relay on some of these requirements. IEC 60601-1-2 EMC for Medical Devices: EN/IEC 60601-1-2, 4th Edition - Medical Design Briefs

    Just a sample of what medical equipment goes through to ensure patients safety and equipment performance.
    And in that whole article, did you see anything even remotely mentioned as to be using some exotic power cords or power conditioners? Would that be even logical that medical equipment be relying on a specific aftermarket power cord? Why "that one" and "not the other" then?

    The article talks about the equipment itself meeting safety specs. In fact, the equipment has to be designed as to be "immune" to all the things we are discussing.

    Some of the equipment is DC (battery) operated even so there is really no place for a power cord in that equation.

  26. #76

    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Having said all that, here is what I do believe. I believe that we cannot unhear that which we see.. We see a nice power cord and the expectations are high. You will hear what you are expecting to hear. If you don't right away, it will need a break in period. Then listen to "other" recordings... yep, that's better. Ask on the forums, get confirmation bias. Between all that, of course it will sound different and the mind will be convinced. How is that any different than reality? It becomes reality and does it even matter whether it was real or not? What power conditioners and power cords do is buy an "audiophile peace of mind". Yep, guilty myself over the years.

  27. #77

    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    A bit off topic but I love this video. Paul McGowan designs, builds and sells DACs. He was asked about USB cables. Do USB cables make a difference? - YouTube

  28. #78

    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    From the video above, Curious Cable commercial. Curious usb Cable - YouTube

  29. #79
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Do you think robotic surgery equipment that can peel the skin off a grape and suture it back on is relying on anything but precise and clean power that is already built into it or does it need an XYZ power cord to do it?
    I wired the surgery rooms and worked on the distribution switchgear at the University of Washington Medical Pavilion. I would say no. They do not have any specialied filtration systems so to speak. In each surgery room the power from the main switchgear goes to a battery UPS switchboard. From there it is fed to a panel at each surgery room with a isolation transformer. Its not a very sophisticated system.

    And the fact that hospitals are purchasing the Shunyata equipment tells the whole story. Maybe you should get on the phone and start calling hospitals and labs. Explain who you are and advise them they are being fleeced. That the improved performance they are realizing is subliminal. They want it to be better so it appears so when its really is not.

    It is possible things have changed. 5 years ago when I was bidding and PM electrical distribution packages for hospitals and data centers for Square D, the emphisis was on uninterrupted power and back up. As well as grounding. I did not see any radical breakthrough technology to quote on the blueprints. It was a pretty standard package.

  30. #80
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    I also wired the entire Radiation Oncology wing at Overlake hospital. That was even more basic. A small distribution sub switchboard at the front end with branches to subpanels at the linear accelerators, exam and prep rooms. Maybe the equipment they connect up has filters built in. But again, these hospitals are purchasing the equipment from Shunyata for a reason.

  31. #81

    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    I wired the surgery rooms and worked on the distribution switchgear at the University of Washington Medical Pavilion. I would say no. They do not have any specialied filtration systems so to speak. In each surgery room the power from the main switchgear goes to a battery UPS switchboard. From there it is fed to a panel at each surgery room with a isolation transformer. Its not a very sophisticated system.

    And the fact that hospitals are purchasing the Shunyata equipment tells the whole story. Maybe you should get on the phone and start calling hospitals and labs. Explain who you are and advise them they are being fleeced. That the improved performance they are realizing is subliminal. They want it to be better so it appears so when its really is not.

    It is possible things have changed. 5 years ago when I was bidding and PM electrical distribution packages for hospitals and data centers for Square D, the emphisis was on uninterrupted power and back up. As well as grounding. I did not see any radical breakthrough technology to quote on the blueprints. It was a pretty standard package.
    I have no idea which hospitals are buying what. Does anyone know? I don't care what the audio manufacturer would say to be honest and not to sound offensive. I already mentioned that I worked with top health equipment providers in the world like Siemens, GE, Hitachi, Toshiba and many others. When I was setting up radiology departments, I would have never allowed any external or aftermarket equipment to be used due to liability issues and insurance policies that would have loved to hear about that aftermarket power cord if something happened. It was always all the equipment provided by the company and strict preventive maintenance practices with field engineers of the equipment. If other hospitals are buying power conditioners and power cords, that is their problem but I would have never taken that responsibility on my myself or put the institution at risk. I am sure Shunyata makes great products, my doubts of such things aside, but many do not even have a UL rated and listed product. That's a big NO for the health industry.

    Trust me, when you are dealing with equipment that makes the liquid nitrogen, cryogenically chilled superconductor cables, drawing so much current as to make them dance, as the gradient coils are pulsing RF into the patient, to make the MRI machine see the hydrogen atoms/water map of your body (your organs), those companies think of everything, including power demands and how to keep power clean and provide so much power to begin with. Surgical suites and their equipment is state of the art in most places too, at least in the bigger cities.

  32. #82
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    I have no idea which hospitals are buying what. Does anyone know? I don't care what the audio manufacturer would say to be honest and not to sound offensive. I already mentioned that I worked with top health equipment providers in the world like Siemens, GE, Hitachi, Toshiba and many others. When I was setting up radiology departments, I would have never allowed any external or aftermarket equipment to be used due to liability issues and insurance policies that would have loved to hear about that aftermarket power cord if something happened. It was always all the equipment provided by the company and strict preventive maintenance practices with field engineers of the equipment. If other hospitals are buying power conditioners and power cords, that is their problem but I would have never taken that responsibility on my myself or put the institution at risk. I am sure Shunyata makes great products, my doubts of such things aside, but many do not even have a UL rated and listed product. That's a big NO for the health industry.

    Trust me, when you are dealing with equipment that makes the liquid nitrogen, cryogenically chilled superconductor cables, drawing so much current as to make them dance, as the gradient coils are pulsing RF into the patient, to make the MRI machine see the hydrogen atoms/water map of your body (your organs), those companies think of everything, including power demands and how to keep power clean and provide so much power to begin with. Surgical suites and their equipment is state of the art in most places too, at least in the bigger cities.
    I agree, the type of equipment you are referring to has its own cord which is generally hardwired to a breaker. I don't think any audio companies make 70 amp to 400 amp power cords.

    But do you know Shunyata is not selling to the manufacturer?
    Serg, your taking a very flowery story, but the product is being designed and customers are buying it. Are you trying to convince people that is a lie. If not, let it go. They make a product for the medical industry.

    Industry such as medical are overflowing with subcontractors making the smallest fitting such as special nuts and bolts, to special glass for lenses, blaa bla blaaa. Its the way it is.

  33. #83

    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    I agree, the type of equipment you are referring to has its own cord which is generally hardwired to a breaker. I don't think any audio companies make 70 amp to 400 amp power cords.
    The gradient cables were the size of a real Anaconda and under the floor with access panels. Also strapped down every 12 to 18 inches if I remember correctly, as they would literally start to wiggle and boogie from power pulses. Serious stuff.

  34. #84
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    The gradient cables were the size of a real Anaconda and under the floor with access panels. Also strapped down every 12 to 18 inches if I remember correctly, as they would literally start to wiggle and boogie from power pulses. Serious stuff.
    Every job has a spec. Thats where you make or break the profits.

  35. #85

    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    One of my other hobbies is flying radio control 3D/Stunt helicopters. My models with the bigger electric motors draw over 200 amps peak from a 44.4V 12s LiPo battery that is no bigger than a 12x4x3 inches. Talk about power density! Of course they are extremely volatile if punctured or something shorts out or goes wrong with the chemistry inside them. VIOLENT! When I solder the connectors on, I have to be extra careful until the exposed leads are well covered and do not short.

    I can see some of today's chemistry easily accommodating any audio components except the amps perhaps. I don't think it was really ever a big advantage though so we did not see the battery operated components take off or become popular.

  36. #86

    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Very cool. But I think those cables need upgrading Don't take it so seriously guys. This is just a hobby after all.

    Researchers in the UK have produced the most accurate cryogenic current comparator – a device used for comparative measurement of current. The new instrument is more exact than previous designs and can, in principle, be operated without liquid helium.

    From the picoamps of ionizing radiation delivered to cancerous tissue to the hundreds of amps traded by electricity suppliers, accurate measurement of electric current is vital to modern physics. The most accurate device to measure a direct current is a cryogenic current comparator (CCC). As the name implies, however, it can only operate at temperatures close to absolute zero, which can be problematic for laboratories without ready access to liquid helium.

    Superconducting circuits
    CCCs rely on superconducting materials and a quantum magnetic flux detector to measure current ratios. To measure an unknown electric current, two wires are passed through a tube of superconductor. An adjustable current is passed in the opposite direction to the current being measured, down one of the two wires. The current induced on the inside wall of the superconductor is equal and opposite to the difference between the currents. This current in turn completes a circuit with an equal and opposite current on the outside wall – a current used to induce a magnetic field measured by a superconducting quantum interference device (SQUID). When the SQUID measures zero magnetic field, there is no current in the superconductor, meaning the current in both wires is the same. Vastly different currents can be compared by adjusting the number of times that each current-carrying wire passes through the superconducting tube – so a current in amps can be compared to a current in picoamps, for example.




  37. #87
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    I've owned a Furman power conditioner for about 25 years. I've only used it for my electric guitars and amps. I'm not even sure it's designed for home audio? I was wondering if I should give it a try in my system?

    I have a dual power supply MSB Discrete DAC which is sort of a "power conditioner" in it's own right. Is it safe to give the Furman a try with my home audio components? Is there even anything to be gained with the Furman power conditioner?
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  38. #88

    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrassphile View Post
    I've owned a Furman power conditioner for about 25 years. I've only used it for my electric guitars and amps. I'm not even sure it's designed for home audio? I was wondering if I should give it a try in my system?

    I have a dual power supply MSB Discrete DAC which is sort of a "power conditioner" in it's own right. Is it safe to give the Furman a try with my home audio components? Is there even anything to be gained with the Furman power conditioner?
    It won't hurt anything and neither will it change anything. Furman is not exotic enough or expensive enough to have audiophile fame

  39. #89
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrassphile View Post
    I've owned a Furman power conditioner for about 25 years. I've only used it for my electric guitars and amps. I'm not even sure it's designed for home audio? I was wondering if I should give it a try in my system?

    I have a dual power supply MSB Discrete DAC which is sort of a "power conditioner" in it's own right. Is it safe to give the Furman a try with my home audio components? Is there even anything to be gained with the Furman power conditioner?
    Your digital system is way beyond that conditioner. It will be a backwards move. It will most likely compress the stage and rob it of life. But its a solid well built device that is safe to use. And its always fun to experiment.

    Out of curiosity, what are you trying to achieve. Do you think the DAC is polluting the AC and other gear. Or do you think the DAC is under performing because of dirty power?
    First Sound Mark3SI preamp. Audion Black Shadow 845 SET Monoblocks. Mojo Audio Deja Vu Server. Mojo Audio Mystic 3 DAC. Linear Solution Ethernet Switch. Gigafoil with LPS. STST Motus II TT with Vertere SG1 arm, Hana ML Cartridge, Allnic H1201 phono pre. Pure Audio Project Trio 15 Horn speakers with Mundord Supreme oil caps. Power via 10 awg Oyaide cable from panel to custom distribution strip feeding front end. Oyaide dedicated10 AWG branch circuits from panel to each amp. Inakustik speaker and interconnect cables, Genesis Interconnect.
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  40. #90
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrassphile View Post
    I've owned a Furman power conditioner for about 25 years. I've only used it for my electric guitars and amps. I'm not even sure it's designed for home audio? I was wondering if I should give it a try in my system?

    I have a dual power supply MSB Discrete DAC which is sort of a "power conditioner" in it's own right. Is it safe to give the Furman a try with my home audio components? Is there even anything to be gained with the Furman power conditioner?
    You won't know till you try it and let your ears decide.
    2chl : Vincent Sp331MkII, W4S STP-SE Stage 2, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, Bryston CD, BHA-1, Quicksilver Headamp, HD650, HD800s, HD820's, Dan Clark 1.1, Focal Stellia, OPPO 203, 105. ( Boxed up: Pass Xa-30.5, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV-20XL, Manley Chinook, Cadenza Bronze)

  41. #91
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by CPP View Post
    You won't know till you try it and let your ears decide.
    And, only your ears can decide. Some one else's ears can't determine what you hear.
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  42. #92
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    I have been using Shunyata’s conditioners for about 10 years. Currently using a Triton III. Eventually climbing up to Everest.
    _______________

    Mike

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  43. #93
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritmo View Post
    I have been using Shunyata’s conditioners for about 10 years. Currently using a Triton III. Eventually climbing up to Everest.
    Same here. While I am sure the Everest sounds great, I am just absolutely satisfied with my current Shunyata gear. Of course, being retired also impacts my purchase decisions.
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  44. #94
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Getting back to the OP's question - Yes. I am. Just purchased an Everest to replace my P20 regenerator.

    Cincy
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  45. #95
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    I have no idea which hospitals are buying what. Does anyone know? I don't care what the audio manufacturer would say to be honest and not to sound offensive. I already mentioned that I worked with top health equipment providers in the world like Siemens, GE, Hitachi, Toshiba and many others. When I was setting up radiology departments, I would have never allowed any external or aftermarket equipment to be used due to liability issues and insurance policies that would have loved to hear about that aftermarket power cord if something happened. It was always all the equipment provided by the company and strict preventive maintenance practices with field engineers of the equipment. If other hospitals are buying power conditioners and power cords, that is their problem but I would have never taken that responsibility on my myself or put the institution at risk. I am sure Shunyata makes great products, my doubts of such things aside, but many do not even have a UL rated and listed product. That's a big NO for the health industry.

    Trust me, when you are dealing with equipment that makes the liquid nitrogen, cryogenically chilled superconductor cables, drawing so much current as to make them dance, as the gradient coils are pulsing RF into the patient, to make the MRI machine see the hydrogen atoms/water map of your body (your organs), those companies think of everything, including power demands and how to keep power clean and provide so much power to begin with. Surgical suites and their equipment is state of the art in most places too, at least in the bigger cities.
    I guess this Doctor must also be an Audiophile since he is easily duped.

    Shunyata Research Medical Uses - The Audio Beat - www.TheAudioBeat.com
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  46. #96
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cincy2 View Post
    Getting back to the OP's question - Yes. I am. Just purchased an Everest to replace my P20 regenerator.

    Cincy
    Wow, you decided to go for it. Congrats!! Hang onto your P20 for a few months just until you’re sure you’re happy with the change. What brand of power cords do you have? I have found that matching power cords to the power conditioner is an important step to achieving synergy.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases and Femto 33 Clock; Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus; MSB UMT V Signature Transport
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  47. #97

    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by still-one View Post
    I guess this Doctor must also be an Audiophile since he is easily duped.

    Shunyata Research Medical Uses - The Audio Beat - www.TheAudioBeat.com
    He is an audiophile and it says so the article. I am aware of the story. That’s not the point. Long before Shunyata, medical equipment was taking all that into consideration and will continue to do so.

    To say that the top engineers at leading global health equipment such as GE, Siemens, Hitachi, Toshiba and others are incapable of designing equipment that is immune to inaccuracies due to a “noisy power” environment is frankly an insult and can only exist in an audiophiles mind. I have worked with those brilliant minds since the late 80’s.

    Perhaps Shunyata should be involved with building a better MRI, PET or a robotic surgery station then? Obviously the engineers are incapable?

    How did we ever get this far with such bad power cords? Scanning electron microscopes, spectroscopy equipment and other extremely precise laboratory equipment must be creating all kinds of erroneous results since their power cords are nothing more than the high quality, built to accepted, proven, engineering standards for such equipment.

    Should we all start bringing a favorite power cord with us when going for a doctors appointment? (If one uses another brand, can that cause a misdiagnosis?)

    I really don’t like these conversations and I can only hope that audiophilia does not start spilling out outside our listening rooms where it exclusively belongs.

    Everyone loves the exotic vibration control and people spend as much as $40k on an audiophile rack in search of better sound when an “active” vibration platform used for precision instruments that are sensitive to vibration can be bought for less than $4k...

    Of course when one realizes that there are NO components sensitive to vibration inside a DAC or a Preamp of the solid state variety (tubes can be slightly sensitive due to microphonics) but still hears a difference, it doesn’t mean that the scientific world should be turning to audiophile products because we think we can “hear” something that cannot be measured and worse yet falls apart with blind listening tests...

    Back to listening to music... (not analysing the sound coming from my speakers)

  48. #98

    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    In case anyone remains skeptical and does not trust the scientific approach of the medical/scientific community (the absurdity of such a notion) here is a brief example.


    Abstract
    Ultrasound Doppler techniques are widely employed in detecting the velocity of moving fluids both in medical and industrial applications. Echo Doppler electronics systems include a highly sensitive front-end suitable to processing the very low power ultrasound echoes received by the transducer. Moreover, the front-end input bandwidth typically ranges between 100 kHz and 10 MHz, which is the same frequency range where modern switching regulators work. Thus, the front-end is particularly prone to the noise produced by the suppliers that power the board itself. Electromagnetic interference (EMI) filters and spread-spectrum modulation of the switching regulator frequency help, but the results are often not optimal, and unacceptable artifacts are visible in the Doppler spectrum. In this paper a spread-spectrum modulation is proposed that concentrates the switching noise in the low-frequency range of the Doppler spectrum (e.g., 0–100 Hz). This range is removed by the high-pass clutter filter normally used in velocity Doppler investigations, thus switching noise and artifacts are eliminated. The method is verified through mathematical simulations and tested in measurements carried out with a research Doppler system. An example is presented in which the artifacts present during the investigation of a 0.4-m/s flow in a 25.4-mm diameter pipe are effectively removed by the proposed method.


    Electronics | Free Full-Text | Switching Power Suppliers Noise Reduction in Ultrasound Doppler Fluid Measurements



  49. #99
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinist View Post
    Wow, you decided to go for it. Congrats!! Hang onto your P20 for a few months just until you’re sure you’re happy with the change. What brand of power cords do you have? I have found that matching power cords to the power conditioner is an important step to achieving synergy.

    Ken
    Ken,

    I've got Transparent power cables. I've owned Shunyata's in the past but to my ears, TA's always sounded better. The P20 is going to a new home so there is no turning back. I'm not worried because I've also owned Shunyata Triton and loved it too.

    Eric
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    CH Precision M10 Amplifier
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    Nordost ODIN 2 speaker cables and interconnects
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    Shunyata Everest power conditioner
    Vicoustics Room Treatments

  50. #100
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    Re: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cincy2 View Post
    Ken,

    I've got Transparent power cables. I've owned Shunyata's in the past but to my ears, TA's always sounded better. The P20 is going to a new home so there is no turning back. I'm not worried because I've also owned Shunyata Triton and loved it too.

    Eric
    Hi Eric,

    You might want consider running an Omega XC power cord from the wall to your Everest like Mike does in his home system. That way you’ll experience the Omega/Everest synergy and can retain the Transparent power cords from your Everest out to your components. Mike has AQ Dragons from his Everest out to his components.

    Enjoy,
    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases and Femto 33 Clock; Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus; MSB UMT V Signature Transport
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps; MSB M204 Mono Amps
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Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

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