Thread: Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

Originally Posted by 2fastdriving

Well well well. You got pretty upset when I said that anyone that doesn't hear a difference with a power conditioner needs better hearing (obviously joking but somehow ruffled a lot of feathers here). But here you are, one-upping me, saying we are "flat earthers". And you're not kidding or joking.

That's fine, I can take it.

You do realize that Shunyata started a whole separate company to supply medical power conditioners and cables because they DID make a difference?!

Just be glad if you can't hear a difference. You'll save a lot of money that way.

Yes, I am aware. Good luck to Shunyata, I hope they find success in their ventures.

Yes, in a sense we are flat earthers.

Like I said, our group relies on "hearing" that which is immeasurable in the face of evidence that certain things do not make a difference. The other group in the face of evidence that the earth is round relies on their eyes and that they see no curvature so the Earth is FLAT.

When both groups are presented with evidence that their assumptions are wrong through experimentation, there is a pause and a silence and then it all goes right back to business as usual. The evidence is presented in the form of double blind listening tests that reveal not only audiophiles but professional musicians, recording engineers and yes, the best ears of them all, the AUDIOPHILE is often just flat out wrong when participating in the blind experiments.

The Flat Earthers are also an enthusiastic group, they even go out and buy very expensive equipment to prove themselves wrong but they don't give up either. Since the eye does not lie and the zoom camera at 1000x still shows no curvature... well, the Earth is still FLAT.

I am an audiophile myself. I have no problem recognizing the difference in sound between different speakers, amplifiers, preamplifiers, certainly digital products and various designs of dacs and filters necessary in digital. I can relate to the difference between cartridges, tonearms, even tonearm cables since we are dealing with a very fragile signal that is much more sensitive to all the external electromagnetic interference. A shielded power cord near a tonearm cable will most likely be better than an unshielded power cord spewing electromagnetic radiation.

But forgive me if I subscribe to a power cord makes no difference camp. The power cord is not a signal carrying entity. It supplies current to the modulating circuitry as it requests it. The electrons come and they go through the power cord. Nothing else. What happens after the rectification and ripple smoothing, AC to DC converting power supply is beyond the business of a power cord that stops at the power supply receptacle...

Yes, I guess I am lucky. Do you honestly think that living literally within a nice cruise distance from The Cable Company I did not use their lending library over the past 30 years to try and figure these things out?

Originally Posted by TheOctopus

But forgive me if I subscribe to a power cord makes no difference camp. The power cord is not a signal carrying entity. It supplies current to the modulating circuitry as it requests it. The electrons come and they go through the power cord. Nothing else. What happens after the rectification and ripple smoothing, AC to DC converting power supply is beyond the business of a power cord that stops at the power supply receptacle...

In SS electronics, a signal is never passed through in literal sense. From input stage to amplifying stage to buffer stage to output stage, a signal is recreated in each stage through its circuit’s power rails.

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

In SS electronics, a signal is never passed through in literal sense. From input stage to amplifying stage to buffer stage to output stage, a signal is recreated in each stage through its circuit’s power rails.

Having an electronics degree, I fully understand that. Thanks. Is there something I am missing about the power cord and power rails after the AC is converted, filtered and smoothed over by the power supply? Do we not have adequate capacitive storage for better transient response in audio amplifiers? How does a power cord affect the energy already stored in capacitors for the voltage rails?

The audio signal however is carried by interconnects. Interconnects can have an effect of the sound if they are specifically made to alter the sound/tone with unusual specs in capacitance, resistance or inductance.

Running over a hundred feet of standard grade microphone cable at a low signal level is not a problem for the recording industry so it is really not a problem for the audio system either. Let's not get ridiculous guys.

Understand that AC is met by the amplifier through its transformer. The electrons are traveling through the windings of the primary and back out the power cord. The voltage is "induced" through the core and secondary of the transformer. All this happens by magic we call electricity and transformer inductance. There is no way to prettify and beautify the induced voltage with a fancy, serpent named power cord... OK?

The power supply then takes the induced AC voltage and rectifies it to DC as well as filter and smooth the ripples over. Capacitors store the energy used by the voltage rails to amplify the incoming signal through the amplification stages/transistors that make the current flow through the speaker wires to speakers in an AC waveform. Some audio IC cables are even directional! Absurdity in itself when it is an alternating current but some audiophiles claim to hear a difference! Of course they should know better and the directional arrows on ICs point to the grounding plane which should be through the preamplifier.

One of my wife's grandfathers was a "Flat Earther." When shown the ocean for the first time in his old age, he remarked, "Hmm, not as big as I though it'd be." Which, when you think about it, was him seeing his view of the ocean disappear over the horizon. I know that when I plugged in my first non-stock power cards, the impact on SQ was a definite, non-subtle improvement in SQ, especially clarity. I couldn't explain it, but I damn sure know what I heard. Confirmation bias or some such? I don't think so.

Originally Posted by GSOphile

One of my wife's grandfathers was a "Flat Earther." When shown the ocean for the first time in his old age, he remarked, "Hmm, not as big as I though it'd be." Which, when you think about it, was him seeing his view of the ocean disappear over the horizon. I know that when I plugged in my first non-stock power cards, the impact on SQ was a definite, non-subtle improvement in SQ, especially clarity. I couldn't explain it, but I damn sure know what I heard. Confirmation bias or some such? I don't think so.

And that is the million dollar question. Well, much. much, more than a million has been spent of power cords over the last 3 decades.

Much, much more than a million has been made by youtubers promoting the flat earth theory and their subscribers gladly eating it up. Psychologically it is a great feeling of belonging to an exclusive group that has the forbidden knowledge that we are being lied to by all the scientists in the world and NASA is at the forefront of that lie... The Earth is as flat as a pancake and some claim there is a dome. No such thing as gravity. It doesn't exist. There is no way we are hurtling through space somewhere on the outskirts of the Milky Way Galaxy at over 1,300,000,000 mph.. That can't be because we don't feel it!

One can draw their own parallels here.

I believe in the confirmation bias much more than I believe I have heard a difference in power cords over my own 3 decades of participating. Fancy ICs? Sure, I have played around, Purist, Nordost, Kimber, Cardas, Wireworld, Transparent, a lot of Transparent! I still use Transparent speaker cables and ICs but they have a network so they are essentially a grunge filter/tone control and I like it!

I also have a Shunyata power cord, it is well made and is well shielded. As such, I find it useful behind my rack where there are a whole bunch of ICs nearby. It doesn't make my system sound different because it dresses up the electrons for the musical parade but because it doesn't seem to spew electromagnetic radiation as much and polluting the nearby components and ICs.

I cannot after 30 years of this hobby in good conscience claim that I definitively heard a difference in cables or power cords but I can without a doubt say that I have also heard that which I "saw" with my eyes and was pre-biased to, with confirmation from other enthusiasts.

Notice how all the cables that are all the rage are simply always blowing the others away. They are always "better". We have invented a lot of adjectives for our descriptive writing but never stop to think what better actually implies. How does one cable make everything "better"? What is "better"? There is no standard or a gauge to go by.

In the end, I have no objection to any of the toys and tweaks. It is what I would call the "jewelry" of the audio world. It is no different than any other hobby where one takes a perfectly well designed and manufactured wheel and "upgrade" to a wheel made by an uncertain quality outfit because it "looks" better. Power conditioners/power cords are no different. If one thinks or even "knows" they hear a difference, so be it. It's your money, spend it as you see fit.
.

Originally Posted by TheOctopus

The audio signal however is carried by interconnects. Interconnects can have an effect of the sound if they are specifically made to alter the sound/tone with unusual specs in capacitance, resistance or inductance.

Same for power. Given that these audio signals will have to be recreated in circuit stages through power rails.

Another visual example while I am at it. I have often thought of what a good example would be. Imagine that old water pump, pumping water from a well. That well is our 120V 60Hz AC household line. That old pump will keep pumping the electrons through your power cord at 60 "pumps" per second. Back and forth, back and forth.

From the power station, down the overhead or underground lines, to the pole transformer, stepped down drastically from the 155,000V to (765,000 volts high voltage lines) to a 240V split phase and in at 120V (114V-126V) AC line to your 120V receptacle.

Those electrons being pumped back and forth through the transformer primary are happy to share their joy through the MAGNETIC FIELD created by alternating current. There are no electrons flowing through the transformer... The electrons are going back to the pump at this point. The magnetic field induces current into the secondary winding of the transformer.

So as one can easily see, there power cord has nothing in common with the electric current that was induced though the transformer and is now happily stored in capacitors in DC to be used as the Voltage rails demands the "energy juice" from the "juice containers" called capacitors we have stored our magnetically induced energy in.

But I think that a video is always worth more than a thousand words? How does a Transformer work - Working Principle electrical engineering - YouTube

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

Same for power. Given that these audio signals will have to be recreated in circuit stages through power rails.

Watch the video I posted above.

Power Inverters. How do they work? Power Inverters Explained - How do they work working principle IGBT - YouTube

How Inverters Work - Working principle rectifier - YouTube

Power supply and Rectifier.

Power Supply And Rectifier - YouTube

Originally Posted by TheOctopus

Watch the video I posted above.

Can you watch this video instead?

MACARENA - Movies Dance Scenes Mashup - (AMAZING VIDEO) 2016 - YouTube

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

Can you watch this video instead?

MACARENA - Movies Dance Scenes Mashup - (AMAZING VIDEO) 2016 - YouTube

Great Macarena. Thanks. My computer has a standard power cord so I am not sure if my experience was as good?

While still on the topic of power supplies. Linear vs Switching Power Supplies. Linear vs Switching DC Power Supplies - What's the Difference? - YouTube

Originally Posted by TheOctopus

Great Macarena. Thanks. My computer has a standard power cord so I am not sure if my experience was as good?

Probably not.

I have had a Denali at my place. Shunyata gear can make a distinct change in tone that to most is positive. Its appears more dynamic, clean and lively. The soundstage also expands in a good way. I would have kept it had I not had other devices in my system that created the same sonic signature.

In the not the distant future I want to put my Zub Zero on a power strip with a couple defenders in parallel. But like all noise, it had a specific frequency. If your not filtering that frequency your not doing anything good.

I have a Niagara 1000 which worked quite well with my then blue heaven power cords, I then upgraded to Nordost Frey 2 power cord to amp and Hemidall 2 for pre and phono stage, I found that the sound was "muddled", i tried different variations and no change. I now plug directly into wall and sound quality much better. Question is if I decide to spend the money on a power generator will it drastically improve the performance of my system.
Any thoughts?

Thanks

Power Conditioner?
I’m like 7-Up: never had it, never will.

Originally Posted by Kingrex

Yes, my refrigerator. It is a high pollution household appliance. It has fans and compressor motors. Not only electrical noise emanates from them to the power line, there is mechanical noise impacts. When my refrigerator turns on I get a small low level warble noise from my speakers. It also mechanically resonates in the far corner of my house behind one of my speakers. That is louder than the speaker noise. Its odd as the floor is decoupled by 2 steel beams and separate floor joist. I think its air born the low frequency piles up in the corner. But anyhow, the electrical noise may be mitigated to some degree by a couple defenders on a power strip with the refer also in the power strip. This is just a guess. I have not tried it yet. Its a heavy refrigerator and take blankets and plywood on the floor to protect surfaces when moving it. I'm also a little unsure the space constraints behind it.

Sounds like your electrical set up at home needs work. I used to have flickering lights when I played music very loud. Hired an electrician to have each of my amps on separate breakers. One of the best investments I made. (Not to mention much Cheaper than any fancy power cord or power conditioner).

Originally Posted by nicoff

Sounds like your electrical set up at home needs work. I used to have flickering lights when I played music very loud. Hired an electrician to have each of my amps on separate breakers. One of the best investments I made. (Not to mention much Cheaper than any fancy power cord or power conditioner).

Why. Because my 20 year old refrigerator creates noise. My house electrical is solid. 1.2 ohm ground resistance. 0 milivolts potential between neutral to ground at the ends of all my power cords. My electrical is far beyond most anyone on here. Only my DAC, server and phono preamp are on receptacles. The amps and preamps are direct connected to their branch circuits and feed by OFC cabling from the panel to rack. As is the power strip feeding my front end.

What I have is inferior amps. Internal design issues. They sound good, but they are not built 100% right. And my old appliance leaks polution into my power. But I'm not ready to spend $11k to get a new refrigerator. No amount of utility and electrical infastructure upgrade will get rid of noise caused by pumps, fans, motors, hvac, poor light dimmers etc. It can be mitigated to a degree, but your gear has to be built to tolerate it. I don't believe most is.

Here is an example of bad wiring impacts. My Black Shadows have internal ground issues, so I have to lift the ground. They also bias at 98 watts which is too high for many 845 tubes. They are redplating my Psvane ACME ,so I pulled the BS and put my Casablanca back into rotation. I did not want to pull my rack from the wall to access the wiring and reconnect the ground. So the Casablanca are running as ungrounded. What I notice is when motors from fans and such turn on, there is a pretty loud snap that comes out my speakers. The Casablanca never does this when grounded. There is also a bit more noise in the background. The room is not as settled. Grounding matters.

Originally Posted by Kingrex

Here is an example of bad wiring impacts. My Black Shadows have internal ground issues, so I have to lift the ground. They also bias at 98 watts which is too high for many 845 tubes. They are redplating my Psvane ACME ,so I pulled the BS and put my Casablanca back into rotation. I did not want to pull my rack from the wall to access the wiring and reconnect the ground. So the Casablanca are running as ungrounded. What I notice is when motors from fans and such turn on, there is a pretty loud snap that comes out my speakers. The Casablanca never does this when grounded. There is also a bit more noise in the background. The room is not as settled. Grounding matters.

Wait... And you are claiming that your electrical is far beyond most anyone here?

Its not good to tear down and rebuild to often. I always trim when I terminate. Crushing and recrushing wire causes strands to break and terminations to break apart and fail. Especially when using wire nuts. Split bolts less so, but they are not rated for multiple wires and harder to safely insulate.

Originally Posted by mep

In spite of how many times he has stated that he has finally solved all his hum and noise issues, the truth always comes out and his system is always plagued with hum and noise issues. What Electrician never mind a Master Electrician would talk about plugging a Sub Zero refrigerator into a power strip? In what state would that meet electric code requirements?

I like your Audio Research Ref 75 amps. They are well built. A friend has the ref mono 160s. Here is what you should try. Turn your volume to 0. Do you hear music? Go as low on the volume as you can before the volume goes away. Note the position. Now, try this tonight when all the neighborhood and you have Christmas lights on. I bet you have to raise the volume a little to get sound. Try this again early in the morning when everyone is asleep and lights are off. I bet you can hear music as a lower volume setting. Its a way to tell how much noise is actually impacting your gear. Even wel built gear is impacted by noise. Lesser quality gear is impacted in more dramatic way.

Can you show me a installation guide or NEC code reference where a home appliance such as a refrigerator is banned from connecting via a power strip. I couldn't find it.

Originally Posted by mep

In spite of how many times he has stated that he has finally solved all his hum and noise issues, the truth always comes out and his system is always plagued with hum and noise issues. What Electrician never mind a Master Electrician would talk about plugging a Sub Zero refrigerator into a power strip? In what state would that meet electric code requirements?

Not to mention bypassing ground in an electrical network meant to be grounded. I always thought that this was a no-no and does not meet code...