Thread: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

There are reports that some people achieved a gain in SQ by switching from Roon GUI to Roonserver, especially with a direct USB DAC connection from a computer.

Some interference can be airborne, some amp (not just DAC) might be affected by RFI EMI for those with a computer sitting close to the audio setup.

*NOT* implying this affects everybody and every system.

I did test this early on with Roon. Actually Roon tech at the time suggested this and stated that they noticed a fairly large difference running only Roon Server (what is was called early on, now they call it Roon Core). I tried it and it was an obvious noticeable improvement running only the core on the server.

I recently had an issue that parallels the OP's. It involved a 3 year/old LG smart TV. We purchased the TV from a Walmart Store in my home town. It listed all the apps that the TV came with on the box. One of the apps it listed was Hulu.

Fast forward to now, we decided that we wanted to activate the Hulu app after researching virtually every streaming app made. It was the only app that had almost all the channels and features we wanted. Our current carrier is a local (fiberoptic) cable provider.

We knew the TV came with Hulu but when we tried activating the Hulu app nothing happened. To shorten a long story, the LG support tech told me that LG stopped supporting the Hulu app (at least for our particular model of LG smart TV). So, I have a TV that not only lists Hulu as an app, on the box. But it also appears as an app on the TV itself during start up.

Evidently (according to the LG tech), LG discontinued support of the Hulu app on my specific LG model 08/2019. However, I was able to get Hulu on my LG smart TV using Chromecast and EZMira. We ended up not subscribing to Hulu as my wife's favorite channel was not one of those offered by Hulu.

But I feel kind of ripped off by LG. The box showed Hulu as an app. Hulu was listed as an app on start up. Needless to say I won't be purchasing any LG products in the future. As an aside, several years ago my wife purchased an LG cell phone and it was the most complicated, least intuitive phone I had ever used. So, we've not had good experiences with LG.

Anyway, I hope you have good luck with your audio streaming issues. So far I've had good luck with my Roon Nucleus and it sounds great. No noise problems at all.

Originally Posted by nicoff

For less than $30 ($50 if you want 4K) you can buy an Amazon Fire Stick that you can connect to one of your HDMI connections on your TV. To use the Fire Stick you must have an active Amazon account. The Fire Stick gives you access to all kind of channels including Hulu. In fact, if I recall, it is compatible with Amazon Alexa and can work with voice commands. The GUI of the fire stick is much better than that of any TV and the apps are updated regularly.

Another option is a Roku box. Works similarly to the Fire Stick but does not require Amazon subscription. The remote of the Roku is the most intuitive of any of these type of devices.

I should have one of each non 4K versions laying around. (I switched to 4K and therefore don’t use them anymore). If interested in any one of those, send me a PM with your address and I will give them to you at no cost.

Thank you for the heads up on the Fire Stick. I'd read just a little about it but am not very familiar with it. I'll check it out. Thanks again.

Yup. And many are working on “hacks” as we speak as they are tired of the moving goal posts.

Should get interesting.



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Hasn't Aqua already gone in that direction?

Originally Posted by Jack

Hasn't Aqua already gone in that direction?

Yup. Already got the hack.


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Smart guys at that company. Great sounding gear too. Need to try and hear the LinQ after the first of the year and I get the house in SC settled in.

Originally Posted by Jack

Smart guys at that company. Great sounding gear too. Need to try and hear the LinQ after the first of the year and I get the house in SC settled in.

I have ordered 5 and all sold before I got them!


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It seems like they hit a home run with this one and the elimination of USB is kind appealing. So have you actually not got to even set one up in the store for a listen?

Originally Posted by Jack

Smart guys at that company. Great sounding gear too. Need to try and hear the LinQ after the first of the year and I get the house in SC settled in.

I have ordered 5 and all sold before I got them!


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Originally Posted by crwilli

I was at a manufacturer today who confirmed directly that they do not get their products back when they send them to ROON in New York for testing. Not a rumor. Fact. Can’t speak to what other manufacturers experiences are.

I thought it was understood that Roon would keep the products sent in for certification. Is that not the case?

Originally Posted by crwilli

I was at a manufacturer today who confirmed directly that they do not get their products back when they send them to ROON in New York for testing. Not a rumor. Fact. Can’t speak to what other manufacturers experiences are.

Post #31

If more manufacturers adopt this hack, I suspect it may trigger a response from Roon Labs to address it in the future.

I also suspect it would be illegal. I assume that they would not advertised that they are Roon compatible because I am sure that would trigger a law suit.

As a software developer I really do not like hackers. If you do not want to use Roon, fine don't use it, but hack software in 100% unacceptable. They have every right to both control and protect their product. If a manufacture does not want to abide by that, fine, make you own system.

If Roon does respond to the unauthorized workarounds to Roon Certification, which they kind of need to do, I expect it to increase costs and complexity for the legitimate authorized manufacturers and to also possibly create problems that may result in older devices becoming unsupported or requiring firmware updates. If Roon fails to address this, their ecosystem will be harmed.

I feel compelled to call this out so that people understand there can be significant negatives due to the creation of unauthorized solutions.

Originally Posted by NekoAudio

If Roon does respond to the unauthorized workarounds to Roon Certification, which they kind of need to do, I expect it to increase costs and complexity for the legitimate authorized manufacturers and to also possibly create problems that may result in older devices becoming unsupported or requiring firmware updates. If Roon fails to address this, their ecosystem will be harmed.

I feel compelled to call this out so that people understand there can be significant negatives due to the creation of unauthorized solutions.

Yup. It’s a mess. You have clients who think they have bought a fully Roon certified solution and we (dealers & customers) are all learning at the same time:



Ahhh...thank goodness for the great and free Lumin app (and Aurender app too!)


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Originally Posted by crwilli

No idea what Post #31 is as I have no easy way of knowing which it is on my phone.(I am not counting posts)

That is a public list of devices that Roon keeps after certification, in support of (not against) what you said.

If these hacks require knowledge of how RAAT operates that is embedded in the Roon-licensed SDK then by definition it is theft of intellectual property. Very cut and dried. It will be very interesting to see what Roon’s response will be.

To me (non Roon subscriber and no real interest in it - have seen and heard it and the interface is great) it seems to remind me what THX did. It was a bunch of specs which were required for certification. Onkyo got tired of it and then released receivers with 'Re EQ' (Cinema Re-Equalization) which did substantially the same thing. If they continue on their course and tighten things up, I think you'll eventually see a company or two do their own testing. If it happens with enough companies doing that, it won't be good for Roon at the end of the day. I think they need to take a step back and think of it from the perspective of manuafacturers and dealers.

Originally Posted by Mike

Yup. It’s a mess. You have clients who think they have bought a fully Roon certified solution and we (dealers & customers) are all learning at the same time:

Ahhh...thank goodness for the great and free Lumin app (and Aurender app too!)

Well it pretty much proves that Roon is at the pinnacle when everyone wants to have the Roon logo on their products. That alone speaks volumes. Also knowing that Roon has always been willing to work with manufactures to me this sounds like manufactures either being cheap or lazy but then trying to take advantage of what Roon has built.

If the other apps were as good then knowing how some people are they would be trying to steal them also... or trying to use it with their products. I could be wrong but are not the Lumin app and Aurender app for their specific hardware? Do people hack them to use them with other hardware? I would be surprised if they do, but I assume they don't (and since I have no knowledge in that I could be wrong ).

However, any hack on any persons or companies intellectual property is wrong and honestly illegal. If a company wants the benefits of being Roon compatible then they are required to get certified. Roon does this for customer protection. If the company does't want to do this they have no right to try to gain the advantage of claiming Roon compatibility. It is the manufactures that are in the wrong, not Roon. Yes, as a customer you feel you should get what you paid for. Being able to use Roon with the product that you purchased believing it was Roon certified. Not getting that feels like you have been cheated and rightfully so. But be angry at the correct parties that are at fault and that is not Roon.

Any hack is illegal and that alone would make me never again consider a product by a company that is willing to do this. They have proved themselves to being willing to cut corners and do unethical things. What would make me think they would not do the same in other areas in their manufacturing... lets say electrical safety regulations???

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

Well it pretty much proves that Roon is at the pinnacle when everyone wants to have the Roon logo on their products. That alone speaks volumes. Also knowing that Roon has always been willing to work with manufactures to me this sounds like manufactures either being cheap or lazy but then trying to take advantage of what Roon has built.

If the other apps were as good then knowing how some people are they would be trying to steal them also... or trying to use it with their products. I could be wrong but are not the Lumin app and Aurender app for their specific hardware? Do people hack them to use them with other hardware? I would be surprised if they do, but I assume they don't (and since I have no knowledge in that I could be wrong ).

However, any hack on any persons or companies intellectual property is wrong and honestly illegal. If a company wants the benefits of being Roon compatible then they are required to get certified. Roon does this for customer protection. If the company does't want to do this they have no right to try to gain the advantage. It is the manufactures that are in the wrong, not Roon. Yes, as a customer you feel you should get what you paid for. Being able to use Roon with the product that you purchased believing it was Roon certified. Not getting that feels like you have been cheated and rightfully so. But be angry at the correct parties that are at fault and that is not Roon.

Any hack is illegal and that alone would make me never again consider a product by a company that is willing to do this. They have proved themselves to being willing to cut corners and do unethical things. What would make me think they would not do the same in other areas in their manufacturing... lets say electrical safety regulations???

The Lumin app can be used by many other vendors FOR FREE. Linn folks have abandoned the Linn app and now use the Lumin app as an example. Esoteric licensed with the good folks at Lumin for Lumin to make them an Esoteric version of the Lumin app.

Agreed on the Roon app. They should pay to use it. But if you look at the hundreds and hundreds of “lesser known” brands out there, many from over seas, it’s going to be a challenge for the folks at Roon. The game of whack-a-mole comes to mind.

Originally Posted by Mike

The Lumin app can be used by many other vendors FOR FREE. Linn folks have abandoned the Linn app and now use the Lumin app as an example. Esoteric licensed with the good folks at Lumin for Lumin to make them an Esoteric version of the Lumin app.

Agreed on the Roon app. They should pay to use it. But if you look at the hundreds and hundreds of “lesser known” brands out there, many from over seas, it’s going to be a challenge for the folks at Roon. The game of whack-a-mole comes to mind.

Ok, there are a few companies using the Lumin app. Thanks for the info. So Roon may have a long road ahead protecting their intellectual property. It is too bad and we all know who will actually pay for it.

If it were not for all of these scum bag pieces of shit trying to steal everything there would not be need for Roon and other companies to go to extra steps and expenses. We would also not need virus scanners, malware protection, constant updates... on and on and on. Sitting by and acting like it is ok is not good. Actually supporting these assholes by using their products is a lot worse, and these "customers", if they know it is hacked are culpable.

We all pay for it; don't kid yourselves thinking we don't. I use legal copies of any software I use, and anybody who doesn't is part of the problem... I have some choice words for them that I will not print here.

this has turned into a quite an interesting thread and i am really enjoying the discussion of roon's business model. here is my armchair, big-picture take:

in the audiophile / high-end segment of the market roon has proven to be an extraordinarily disruptive company… with a roon subscription it is no longer a necessity for this market segment to adhere to any specific topology or to buy specialized audio equipment in order to play their locally stored or streamed music files... it is now a choice.

basically, for $9.99 per month roon has provided subscribers the freedom to design and configure their file-based, digital back-end in any fashion that makes sense for them. these subscriber solutions can range from costless by simply installing roon on an existing computer and pointing it to a playback endpoint to costing many multiples of $10k by opting for bespoke servers, high-end streamers/transports, etc.

furthermore, in creating a high-quality product with a great UI and UX they are the market leader and the de-facto go-to software — their brand awareness and recognition are high. realistically, any company wishing to sell digital playback hardware in meaningful unit quantities absolutely must take roon into account. and, for those companies wishing to have networked products this means becoming roon-certified. sure, its a PINTA and takes time + resources to do it right and, thereby, do right by their own customers.


so, roon is in a position to significantly influence not only the market for playback software but, more importantly for the discussion here, the market for playback hardware. from this perspective, it is easy to understand the discomfort of the entire hardware manufacturing/distribution chain. simply put, roon in empowering their customers has altered the trajectory of this market segment and, thereby, its economics …no wonder they are now a target.

and, as they say: therein lies the rub.
_________________________

as some what of an aside: being someone knowledgeable about software development and having been involved in the ecosystem of early-stage, startup companies, roon is the poster-child for how to do things right. from identifying a large addressable market to executing on a plan to monetize the opportunity to being capital efficient to building market share and brand recognition to almost any metric relevant to the success of a start-up they have succeeded… wildly.

their masterstroke was the release of ROCK which opened an almost limitless number of hardware options for roon subscribers. i view it as being as important to roon as was apple's decision in the early days of the iPhone to open up app development to third party companies and provide them with an SDK to build apps.

and, if nothing else you have to admire this.

Originally Posted by Mike

The Lumin app can be used by many other vendors FOR FREE. Linn folks have abandoned the Linn app and now use the Lumin app as an example. Esoteric licensed with the good folks at Lumin for Lumin to make them an Esoteric version of the Lumin app.

Agreed on the Roon app. They should pay to use it. But if you look at the hundreds and hundreds of “lesser known” brands out there, many from over seas, it’s going to be a challenge for the folks at Roon. The game of whack-a-mole comes to mind.

Wouldn’t that also be true for Lumin with their app being available to 3rd parties?

Originally Posted by asindc

Wouldn’t that also be true for Lumin with their app being available to 3rd parties?

Lumin allows others to use it. No complaints. They even encourage it!


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Originally Posted by aKnyght

this has turned into a quite an interesting thread and i am really enjoying the discussion of roon's business model. here is my armchair, big-picture take:

in the audiophile / high-end segment of the market roon has proven to be an extraordinarily disruptive company… with a roon subscription it is no longer a necessity for this market segment to adhere to any specific topology or to buy specialized audio equipment in order to play their locally stored or streamed music files... it is now a choice.

basically, for $9.99 per month roon has provided subscribers the freedom to design and configure their file-based, digital back-end in any fashion that makes sense for them. these subscriber solutions can range from costless by simply installing roon on an existing computer and pointing it to a playback endpoint to costing many multiples of $10k by opting for bespoke servers, high-end streamers/transports, etc.

furthermore, in creating a high-quality product with a great UI and UX they are the market leader and the de-facto go-to software — their brand awareness and recognition are high. realistically, any company wishing to sell digital playback hardware in meaningful unit quantities absolutely must take roon into account. and, for those companies wishing to have networked products this means becoming roon-certified. sure, its a PINTA and takes time + resources to do it right and, thereby, do right by their own customers.


so, roon is in a position to significantly influence not only the market for playback software but, more importantly for the discussion here, the market for playback hardware. from this perspective, it is easy to understand the discomfort of the entire hardware manufacturing/distribution chain. simply put, roon in empowering their customers has altered the trajectory of this market segment and, thereby, its economics …no wonder they are now a target.

and, as they say: therein lies the rub.
_________________________

as some what of an aside: being someone knowledgeable about software development and having been involved in the ecosystem of early-stage, startup companies, roon is the poster-child for how to do things right. from identifying a large addressable market to executing on a plan to monetize the opportunity to being capital efficient to building market share and brand recognition to almost any metric relevant to the success of a start-up they have succeeded… wildly.

their masterstroke was the release of ROCK which opened an almost limitless number of hardware options for roon subscribers. i view it as being as important to roon as was apple's decision in the early days of the iPhone to open up app development to third party companies and provide them with an SDK to build apps.

and, if nothing else you have to admire this.

I totally agree, but also remember they did not just jump into the market. They started by developing the Sooloos system for Meridian. After they fulfilled their contract with Meridian they went their separate way and started developing Roon. So they were not new comers to the industry.

Initially offering the lifetime subscription to raise necessary start up capital, knowing full well that they were not wanting to do lifetime subs for the long haul. This is primarily the reason they raised the lifetime rate and will eventually eliminate it entirely (this was straight from one of the founders to me personally). They have done well and offer and excellent product that most people can use without issues. They are also attempting to make sure that all customers can use it. Their reasoning is very sound.

The Apple example I guess is pertinent here even though I am not an Apple fan. Yes they allow and encourage third party development of apps, but remember also that any of those apps can only be sold in the Apple App Store and that Apple gets a relatively large percentage. Not unlike manufactures wanting to be part of the Roon eco system and gaining all of the advantageous that go with it. It does cost to be part of and gain advantages from the Roon environment. And that is only fair.

We should start learning tomorrow if people log in here to say their DAC or streamer isn’t working.


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Originally Posted by Randy Myers

I totally agree, but also remember they did not just jump into the market. They started by developing the Sooloos system for Meridian. After they fulfilled their contract with Meridian they went their separate way and started developing Roon. So they were not new comers to the industry.

sure, and microsoft (to use a perhaps more palatable computer analogy) was not the first operating system, but they did create software that could run on many different computers (i.e. the "ibm clones") ...my point is that companies that democratize their markets and disrupt entrenched business models and companies are usually the winners. hence, all the current industry ajida.

with respect to ROCK, i don't think it's full impact has yet to be felt. my opinion is that ROCK opens up the avenue for sound quality concerned consumers to entirely bypass audiophile, high-end computer and networking hardware in favor of a now vastly larger universe of consumer grade products connected by fiber ethernet or an equivalent such as the MSB pro-ISL module.

if one really wants to do a fair test of this theory, take a dac which has fiber input such as a lumin x1 or an MSB w/ pro-ISL and then feed it the exact same digital stream (no hardware or software specific upsampling, DSP, etc) from front ends that range from takio all the way down to a raspbery-Pi and then see if you can tell the difference. if you do hear one, it is in your head not your ears. think about it ...how would it be possible for a dac to convert the exact same digital stream, delivered free of all upstream electrical noise differently?

ymmv, but i am happy to take all that dough saved on an audiophile upstream digital infrastructure and spend it on speakers, an amplifier or even a killer dinette set. herein lies the real value proposition of roon.

Originally Posted by Mike

We should start learning tomorrow if people log in here to say their DAC or streamer isn’t working.

given that 1) roon announced this new policy with very short effect and 2) that roon has communicated the underlying issue with manufacturers for over a year, whom should they see about their now non-functioning networked roon endpoint?

like you -- can't wait to see the show!!

Originally Posted by aKnyght

given that 1) roon announced this new policy with very short effect and 2) that roon has communicated the underlying issue with manufacturers for over a year, whom should they see about their now non-functioning networked roon endpoint?

like you -- can't wait to see the show!!

They should go straight to the manufacturer.


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Agreed, I believe it is a manufactures issue, not Roon. It is not like Roon has hidden any of this to the manufactures.

Just a comment that reverse engineering is different than IP theft which is also different than unauthorized activity/communication.

To legally reverse engineer you need virgin engineers (have never seen nor heard about the product). They are given a list of features that are required and told to create this. This is what Compaq did to create the IBM clone. The I/O chip set is the only thing IBM did not purchase off the shelf. Compaq had virgin engineers create an I/O chip that provided the same functions but certainly not the same chip or firmware construction, but it performed the same functions.

This is not what hackers are doing. The are stealing code which is highly illegal.

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

To legally reverse engineer you need virgin engineers (have never seen nor heard about the product). They are given a list of features that are required and told to create this. This is what Compaq did to create the IBM clone. The I/O chip set is the only thing IBM did not purchase off the shelf. Compaq had virgin engineers create an I/O chip that provided the same functions but certainly not the same chip or firmware construction, but it performed the same functions.

This is not what hackers are doing. The are stealing code which is highly illegal.

for those interested in this very topic, i can recommend the series halt and catch fire which i believe is now available on netfix -- a great dramatization of the software development and events surrounding the rise of silicon prairie. a very enjoyable binge!

But several of them seem to offer better sound quality with less equipment hassle and expense. Many of us live quite happily with the software from Lumin, Aurender, Auralic and Innuous etc and see no need for the extra gear or software.

Auralic, Lumin and Aurender use their own proprietary in house software.