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  1. #201
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Mike

    Maybe time to see if Arthur will let you try out the new Euphony Summus.

    Euphony SUMMUS Music Server i7
    Yes. For sure!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, Esoteric, Estelon Loudspeakers, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  2. #202
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    300 baud works just fine. Love the noise it makes when we connect to this incredible thing called “AOL”.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    I love watching the bits by bits move across the screen.
    Amps: Hattor "The Big", Hattor Tube Active Stage, Bel Canto REF500S, T+A AMP 8, McIntosh MC754, Bryston BHA-1
    Vinyl: Rega RP8 w/Rega Neo PSU, Rega Ania Pro, Moon 310LP, Hexmat Yellow Bird, Record Doctor VI
    Digital: Falcon Northwest PC Server, T+A DAC 8 DSD, W4S Recovery, Roon & HQPlayer, Astell&Kern AK240
    Transducers: Magnepan MG .7's w/Magna Riser Stands, Rythmik L12's (x2), B&W MM-1's, Abyss Diana Phi's
    Other: McIntosh MR7083, Oppo BDP105, AudioQuest Niagara 1000

  3. #203
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by NekoAudio View Post
    I guess another possibility is you have some sort of virus or trojan that is eating up resources. That could explain why it is on both your home and work systems, since there's a good chance they've had some way to communicate with each other (via the network, USB sticks, etc.). It could also explain why the system seems to be overloaded even if you have a super small set of music loaded into Roon, or why the issue seems to be intermittent instead of constant.
    I was actually thinking this also. People think Macs never get viruses but in actuality they actually get more because of the sense of invulnerability that Apple promotes and many times leaves system exposed. It sure sounds like something going on.... Roon is not a resource hog, at all. It uses a minute amount of resources on my system. Honestly HQPlayer uses a ton more but even with both running the resources are not being pushed.
    Amps: Hattor "The Big", Hattor Tube Active Stage, Bel Canto REF500S, T+A AMP 8, McIntosh MC754, Bryston BHA-1
    Vinyl: Rega RP8 w/Rega Neo PSU, Rega Ania Pro, Moon 310LP, Hexmat Yellow Bird, Record Doctor VI
    Digital: Falcon Northwest PC Server, T+A DAC 8 DSD, W4S Recovery, Roon & HQPlayer, Astell&Kern AK240
    Transducers: Magnepan MG .7's w/Magna Riser Stands, Rythmik L12's (x2), B&W MM-1's, Abyss Diana Phi's
    Other: McIntosh MR7083, Oppo BDP105, AudioQuest Niagara 1000

  4. #204

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    We are running a NAS (Synology 1812+). The laptop has the latest version of Mac OS.

    My hunch is that Roon constantly wants to update the library and our library is large. My guess is that it’s getting stuck somewhere. But that being said, my home setup is completely different and still has the same issues. It’s why I want to try something a little more powerful.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    A couple of suggestions:
    1. Make sure that your NAS drive (shares) is mounted to the Mac.
    2. Disable the sleep mode of your NAS

  5. #205
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Jack is correct. We use Roon a lot in the store because many of our products require it. We also help customers with Roon Nucleus’ and the like.


    However, for us in the store and me at home (I have Roon running for my NAIM music server which I use in the family room) and it’s buggy in both places, buggy as hell. I’ve been taking videos and will soon start a channel and post them. It’s constantly crashing and it hangs ALL. THE. TIME.
    I had the same issue too. It was hanging all the time. My problem was in the router, or actually the combination of my router and accesspoint. I gave them both the same IP range: 192.168.178.2. All my stuff worked, except roon. It sometimes worked for a few seconds and then stops playing. It was luck to get a minute of music out of Roon. Then I was thinking: maybe those 2 routers are in conflict and changed one of them to 192.168.178.3. And to my surprise, all my stuff kept going and Roon was fixed. Just Right in time, the tryout period was almost over and took the subscription.
    enjoy the music

  6. #206
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkyogre View Post
    I had the same issue too. It was hanging all the time. My problem was in the router, or actually the combination of my router and accesspoint. I gave them both the same IP range: 192.168.178.2. All my stuff worked, except roon. It sometimes worked for a few seconds and then stops playing. It was luck to get a minute of music out of Roon. Then I was thinking: maybe those 2 routers are in conflict and changed one of them to 192.168.178.3. And to my surprise, all my stuff kept going and Roon was fixed. Just Right in time, the tryout period was almost over and took the subscription.
    Makes sense. You can't use the same IP on multiple devices.
    Bud

    Lumin X1 file player
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR for preamp, Denali 2000 (2) for amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.

  7. #207

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkyogre View Post
    I had the same issue too. It was hanging all the time. My problem was in the router, or actually the combination of my router and accesspoint. I gave them both the same IP range: 192.168.178.2. All my stuff worked, except roon. It sometimes worked for a few seconds and then stops playing. It was luck to get a minute of music out of Roon. Then I was thinking: maybe those 2 routers are in conflict and changed one of them to 192.168.178.3. And to my surprise, all my stuff kept going and Roon was fixed. Just Right in time, the tryout period was almost over and took the subscription.
    Your comment reminds me of one very important thing to check:
    make sure that your NAS is assigned a static IP address in your network!

    If the NAS uses a dynamic IP address, when the IP changes Roon cannot find the NAS drive (or the music stored in it) and will stop playing.

  8. #208
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Duplicate - that can't be simply deleted! Sorry.
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M33, NAD M12, Consonance Cyber 845, NAD M32 for sale
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo XD, Avantgarde Duo (2006 - aesthetically modified), Martin Logan Expression 13A (for sale)

  9. #209
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    It's stated here that the NAD M33 is yet to be certified but the M32 already has been - for years.

    The basic M32 (or M12 preamp for that matter) has no streaming ability unless the BluOS module is added. So, presumably it's the module that is Roon Ready and certified. What's to stop the owner of an M33 (when they become available and assuming no certification) from adding a BluOS module to his M33? The device would have 2 streamer modules (one built-in) but that's surely no problem as they'd each be identified by the software and Roon could respond to the BluOS module and ignore the built-in streamer.

    I ask because I'm planning to get the M33 but already have the BluOS module that I could remove from my M32 / M12. Peter
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M33, NAD M12, Consonance Cyber 845, NAD M32 for sale
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo XD, Avantgarde Duo (2006 - aesthetically modified), Martin Logan Expression 13A (for sale)

  10. #210

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    I was actually thinking this also. People think Macs never get viruses but in actuality they actually get more because of the sense of invulnerability that Apple promotes and many times leaves system exposed. It sure sounds like something going on.... Roon is not a resource hog, at all. It uses a minute amount of resources on my system. Honestly HQPlayer uses a ton more but even with both running the resources are not being pushed.
    I've been using a headless Mac Mini for Roon Core since Q4, 2016 and for the most part, it's been flawless. I've got 3495 albums and 43,204 tracks. I think I've had that bouncing Roon icon "failure to launch" upon startup failure mode maybe 3 times, when you need to go into the Terminal mode and reboot from there. Using a quad-core Ivy Bridge i7 with Mac OS Mojave and 16 GB RAM. All my music is on an external 4TB Thunderbolt LaCie Rugged Drive. Other than that, it's been flawless. Mac Mini is powered by a Shunyata Venom V14D Digital PC and the Cryoparts power strip its plugged into is powered by a Shunyata Venom NR-V12 PC. I'm connecting to my downstream network bridge via fiber.

  11. #211
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    I've been using a headless Mac Mini for Roon Core since Q4, 2016 and for the most part, it's been flawless. I've got 3495 albums and 43,204 tracks. I think I've had that bouncing Roon icon "failure to launch" upon startup failure mode maybe 3 times, when you need to go into the Terminal mode and reboot from there. Using a quad-core Ivy Bridge i7 with Mac OS Mojave and 16 GB RAM. All my music is on an external 4TB Thunderbolt LaCie Rugged Drive. Other than that, it's been flawless. Mac Mini is powered by a Shunyata Venom V14D Digital PC and the Cryoparts power strip its plugged into is powered by a Shunyata Venom NR-V12 PC. I'm connecting to my downstream network bridge via fiber.
    Yup, even though I am not a fan I do believe that Apple is not the issue either. I will say I have heard more people having issues when using Apple's but I do not necessarily blame that on Apple. I do believe that there are more issues simply because of users who are drawn towards Mac, with exceptions of course, tend to be less comfortable with computers. However I do blame Apple for actively minimizing the threats towards their computers leading to a false sense of security. Apples are fully capable of running Roon, issue free, and many Apple users have Roon working flawlessly for them.

    With all that said using an Apple does not explain Mike's issues, as many other Apple users do not have issues.
    Amps: Hattor "The Big", Hattor Tube Active Stage, Bel Canto REF500S, T+A AMP 8, McIntosh MC754, Bryston BHA-1
    Vinyl: Rega RP8 w/Rega Neo PSU, Rega Ania Pro, Moon 310LP, Hexmat Yellow Bird, Record Doctor VI
    Digital: Falcon Northwest PC Server, T+A DAC 8 DSD, W4S Recovery, Roon & HQPlayer, Astell&Kern AK240
    Transducers: Magnepan MG .7's w/Magna Riser Stands, Rythmik L12's (x2), B&W MM-1's, Abyss Diana Phi's
    Other: McIntosh MR7083, Oppo BDP105, AudioQuest Niagara 1000

  12. #212
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Your comment reminds me of one very important thing to check:
    make sure that your NAS is assigned a static IP address in your network!

    If the NAS uses a dynamic IP address, when the IP changes Roon cannot find the NAS drive (or the music stored in it) and will stop playing.
    You really make a good point here. Since a few years I invested time in getting my home network all static, and it was far more reliable. Every device that you use has its own mac address.My network is organized that every single mac address gets its own IP. For instance: my pc gets 192.168,178,216 my smartphone: 192.168,178,228, my printer: 192.168.189.221

    Every single device has its own mac address and every single mac address I assigned manually its own IP. Thats about routers:

    One more thing: Yesterday I changed my accesspoint behind the TV,
    I went to an audio specialist and wanted to listen to the silent angel bonn n8. Within a few minutes I decided to buy one. The shop owner was surprised, he never ever had a listener who liked to compare this silent angel bonn, while he sold 500 of these things! After listening I was convinced and got one. At home I found out what a switch is: nothing to do with IPs etcetera, it only works for Roon,

    So my conclusion is this: a router with a static IP gives a stable Roon connection. put a switch after it, one made for audio of course, and everything works stable, with an amazing sound due to the audio switch.
    enjoy the music

  13. #213
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    It's stated here that the NAD M33 is yet to be certified but the M32 already has been - for years.

    The basic M32 (or M12 preamp for that matter) has no streaming ability unless the BluOS module is added. So, presumably it's the module that is Roon Ready and certified. What's to stop the owner of an M33 (when they become available and assuming no certification) from adding a BluOS module to his M33? The device would have 2 streamer modules (one built-in) but that's surely no problem as they'd each be identified by the software and Roon could respond to the BluOS module and ignore the built-in streamer.

    I ask because I'm planning to get the M33 but already have the BluOS module that I could remove from my M32 / M12. Peter
    I asked NAD about these matters and received this reply:

    Vishnu M. (BluOS)

    Sep 23, 2020, 9:34 PM EDT

    Hello Peter,

    Thank you for getting back in touch.

    NAD Electronics is very aware of the situation and have spoken with ROON about their certification process regarding NAD BluOS Enabled products with a detailed front panel display.

    NAD is confident the NAD M10 and C658 will be certified before then and no foreseeable hurdles with the NAD M33 or newer products entering the certification process and will continue a great relationship with ROON Labs. Due to the nature of the certification we cannot provide an ETA at this point, but rest assured this is being worked on.

    In regards to your second question, the M33 runs BluOS as its main firmware so adding an MDC BluOS module to the M33 is not possible.

    We add MDC BluOS to older players to enable BluOS for these devices.

    Also please note that at this point no NAD or Bluesound devices are Roon certified. They are Roon endpoints. The certification is in progress.



    I'm not sure what I make of the last paragrapg. Roon Ready vs Roon Certified? As long as they work with Roon (and vice versa), I'm not sure if I need to worry about the wording. Or should I before buying the M32? Peter
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M33, NAD M12, Consonance Cyber 845, NAD M32 for sale
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo XD, Avantgarde Duo (2006 - aesthetically modified), Martin Logan Expression 13A (for sale)

  14. #214
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    The 21st has come and gone.

    I'm hopeful, that with no reports of loss of signal here, everyone has come through unscathed.
    Synology 1019D+ - SGC Sonictransporter I9 w Roon/HQ Player- UltraRendu- PBD Stream IF to Playback Designs MPS5 via fiber optic - ARC 40th Anniversary Pre - ARC 610 T's - Martin Logan CLX's - 4 Martin Logan Depth i Subs - Shunyata Hydra, IC's and PC's. Audio Quest Vodka CAT 7's. Acoustically treated room with one permanent chair.

  15. #215

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    The OP disappeared from this thread...

  16. #216
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    The OP disappeared from this thread...
    He lives in the same neighborhood as my store. I’m sure he will be back.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, Esoteric, Estelon Loudspeakers, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  17. #217
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    I have been lurking. Since Roon came up with an interim solution for uncertified “Roon Ready” devices, my Bricasti M3 is safe for now.
    MAIN SYSTEM - SST Ambrosia 2000 Second Edition Preamp and SST Son of Ampzilla II Amp, Bricasti M3 DAC/Streamer w/MDX upgrade, PS Audio P3 Power Plant, Focal Sopra No. 1 Speakers, JL Audio F112 Subwoofer, Elac SUB3070 Subwoofer, 20TB Synology NAS

    HOME OFFICE SYSTEM - KEF Nocturne LS50W Speakers with Roon

  18. #218

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    I am not sure Roon is being straight forward regarding it being free to get certified. I remember talking to a manufacturer and they mentioned Roon was charging a pretty hefty fee which put them off enough to not want to get certified.

    I don’t disagree that they should only support certified gear. However, charging a large fee to be certified restricts not only their own growth it hurts the end customer as well. This would explain why their adoption of new vendors is slow. They have one of the few decent experiences out there for streaming music. One would think they should have been able to secure more vendors to join by now. The last thing high end audio manufacturers want to do is to write and support software.
    -----------------------------------------
    Virtus RI-101, Martin Logan Impression 11A, Lumin T2, AudioQuest WEL and Thunderbird Zero

  19. #219
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by eziggy View Post
    I remember talking to a manufacturer and they mentioned Roon was charging a pretty hefty fee which put them off enough to not want to get certified.
    Roon Labs do no charge a fee to certify devices.

    In addition to Roon Ready work on Lumin, I also help a few manufacturers as part of my job. If Roon Labs charged us or the manufacturers I help, I would have known.
    Peter Lie
    LUMIN Firmware Lead

  20. #220

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by wklie View Post
    Roon Labs do no charge a fee to get certified.

    In addition to Roon Ready work on Lumin, I also help a few manufacturers as part of my job. If Roon Labs charged us or the manufacturers I help, I would have known.
    Interesting, thanks Peter that’s good insight. Are there no charges whatsoever to get certified from beginning of the process to end?

    Wonder what those other guys were referring to.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    -----------------------------------------
    Virtus RI-101, Martin Logan Impression 11A, Lumin T2, AudioQuest WEL and Thunderbird Zero

  21. #221
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Perhaps they're referring to the resources to make devices Roon Ready - that could be significant in terms of development time (man-months) depending on individual hardware and software architecture.

    Edit: On second thought, a more likely scenario is that the hardware manufacturer you talked to relies on a third party to make their devices Roon Ready. Many traditional audio companies have expertise in hardware, but would seek external help for streaming / software.
    Peter Lie
    LUMIN Firmware Lead

  22. #222

    Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    There are a number of companies that tend to deride other technologies alleging poor sound quality or whatever (like non-existing certification costs) when in reality they just don’t have the know-how to do it themselves or just want folks to use their own proprietary (often inferior) product.
    So they come up with all kind of “reasons” (i.e., excuses) why they don’t do it. I recall a company saying that they will never use room correction on their products citing sound quality concerns. In reality that company did not have the technology know-how to do it on its own. Eventually that company bought/licensed somebody else’s product, rebadged it with its own brand and now sells that product as their top of the line.
    So my experience has been that when an old-school/traditional manufacturer uses a “reason” why they don’t adopt certain new technology, I am always a bit skeptical.

  23. #223
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Peter Lie
    LUMIN Firmware Lead

  24. #224
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, Esoteric, Estelon Loudspeakers, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  25. #225
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    The Roon folks certainly have taken a strong stance in this exchange.

    I wonder if Audirvana will produce a Linux version to license to manufacturers?




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, Esoteric, Estelon Loudspeakers, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  26. #226
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Other than Danny trying to throw his weight around what is there reasoning for needing the non-Roon modules?
    Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon DL-301 Mk II, Gold Note PH-10, Nuprime CDT-8, Auralic Aries G1, Aqua La Voce S3, Supratek Chardonnay, PS Audio BHK 250, Verity Otello, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Audio Envy IC's & PC's, Triode Wire Lab SC, PC's & USB , PS Audio Stellar P3, Timbernation rack

    Family Room - Oppo UDP-203, Teac NT505, Kinki Studio EX-M1+, Nola KO, (2) Rythmik F-12G, Wireworld SC & IC's, Neotech PC's, SurgeX SA-1810

    Travelers Rest, SC- Marantz HD-CD1, Auralic Aries, PSA Directstream Sr., Audia Flight FL Three S, Harbeth C7-ES3 (2) RSL Speedwoofers, PI Audio Uberbuss, Audio Sensibility IC's and SC's, Triode Wire Lab PC's.

  27. #227
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Other than Danny trying to throw his weight around what is there reasoning for needing the non-Roon modules?
    I asked and they said they wanted to give people options. Aqua also said the modular approach allows them to maybe one day be able to build a better Roon module and upgrading would be plug & play.


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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    I have read the whole exchange. I hope Aqua reconsiders their stanace and restarts working with Roon to have the unit certified. LinQ seems like a great product.
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Mike

    I meant what is Roon's reasoning for demanding to get there hands on and test modules that don't have anything to do with Roon. I understand Christian's stance on why multiple modules.
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  30. #230

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    From Roon COO above:

    “We will do whatever needed to stop you from distributing our intellectual property without a license to do so. Either you do this the right way, or you don’t do it.”

    Don’t see what’s the point frankly. Roon Labs has and can easily block any unauthorized products from working with Roon. As a consumer and Roon subscriber, I would not bother buying a product that at any moment can stop working with Roon.

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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post

    I meant what is Roon's reasoning for demanding to get there hands on and test modules that don't have anything to do with Roon. I understand Christian's stance on why multiple modules.
    Roon is speculating that LinQ might have issue when switching between different modules and hence they want to test it. In my opinion, that's not Roon's problem - that is for Aqua to fix and Roon's demand on testing with a 2nd module seems unreasonable. In that way, for a streaming device you need the whole shebang of things (network cables, switches, routers, modems, etc) that makes a network streaming device either work or not work.

  32. #232
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    I sort of see Roon's point on this one. People understand that networking problems, cables, etc., are not Roon's issue or fault, but when it comes to a Roon certified device they will definitely blame Roon.

    An add on card can and many times do cause issues with or affect performance of other cards within a particular device. Their certification is for the device and therefore if a firmware change or an add-in card can affect the device then it is very much their business.

    I do not understand why Aqua is having such an issue with it. It is not like they have built a good working relationship and from history know they can count on their updates, etc. I would also assume that down the road Roon might not be as restrictive with add on's, knowing from history how Aqua works.

    There is a very good reason why all these hardware manufactures want to be able to list Roon Ready, Roon certified, etc., on their products. They obviously believe it is a highly respected product and something that will increase sales of their hardware.
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  33. #233

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    Roon is speculating that LinQ might have issue when switching between different modules and hence they want to test it. In my opinion, that's not Roon's problem - that is for Aqua to fix and Roon's demand on testing with a 2nd module seems unreasonable. In that way, for a streaming device you need the whole shebang of things (network cables, switches, routers, modems, etc) that makes a network streaming device either work or not work.
    Agreed, the Roon guys are trying to control too much. This tactic only works for companies like Apple who own the entire ecosystem.

    To grow they need to be as flexible as possible toward device manufacturers since they sit in between them and the end user. Limit the number of devices supported limits your customers base.

    That being said, they need some controls so the experience is not negatively impacted. Seems like they are going to one extreme quickly without taking small steps to recify any issues they may be facing with rogue devices.
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  34. #234
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    From Roon COO above:

    “We will do whatever needed to stop you from distributing our intellectual property without a license to do so. Either you do this the right way, or you don’t do it.”

    Don’t see what’s the point frankly. Roon Labs has and can easily block any unauthorized products from working with Roon. As a consumer and Roon subscriber, I would not bother buying a product that at any moment can stop working with Roon.
    I also would not consider any product that is not Roon certified!
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    I don't think it is unusual or unreasonable for a certification process to include other aspects of the device's hardware and software that could have an impact on the features or functionality of the portion being certified. I know other certification programs either cover those things or have a shared API / integration requirements that ensure other parts of the product won't have a negative impact.
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  36. #236
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    And not surprisingly the usual suspects believe Roon to always be right and think that the world of digital streaming cannot survive without them. Beat a dead horse often as if we all don't know what your opinions on any Roon related subject are.
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  37. #237
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    And not surprisingly the usual suspects believe Roon to always be right and think that the world of digital streaming cannot survive without them. Beat a dead horse often as if we all don't know what your opinions on any Roon related subject are.
    Exactly. It won't be long before someone will say "Excuse me but what is Roon ?"

    Roon should really slow down and improve their playback quality issues (a real issue) that all these high-end streaming devices is supposed to be certified with.

  38. #238
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by NekoAudio View Post
    I don't think it is unusual or unreasonable for a certification process to include other aspects of the device's hardware and software that could have an impact on the features or functionality of the portion being certified. I know other certification programs either cover those things or have a shared API / integration requirements that ensure other parts of the product won't have a negative impact.
    its only an audio playback s/w, not a FIPs certification

  39. #239
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    And not surprisingly the usual suspects believe Roon to always be right and think that the world of digital streaming cannot survive without them. Beat a dead horse often as if we all don't know what your opinions on any Roon related subject are.
    It really isn't "beating a dead horse". There is a subject being discussed and many people give their opinions, on either side of the discussion. I don't see any reason a snarky comment is called for? Oh well, I guess it will happen every time their is a lively discussion going on. Sort of learned to expect it now ...
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  40. #240
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    its only an audio playback s/w, not a FIPs certification
    Yes, but when people pay top dollar for software, which I believe Roon is, they expect certain things. Roon is protecting themselves, or more importantly doing their best to assure their customers are getting the experience they are paying for. This is not an uncommon practice with software companies. Adobe and Corel have done similar things for many years.
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  41. #241
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Randy

    There is nothing snarky about my comment in fact in your last two posts you are making my point for me. There are a handful of guys on this forum, some of whom go from forum to forum everyday, defending and promoting Roon as if they were Roon employees. It is just a piece of software not a "religious movement" even though it is treated as such by a group of people. They are not the only option for digital playback and there are many that would claim just as fervently as you that it is not the best either. The people at Aurender, Auralic, Lumin, Innuos, and many others are doing just fine with their own software and did before there was Roon and would continue to do so if it went away. In fact not being in the "Roon camp" has not hurt Aurender at all based on their sales and recent hardware releases. Just like every time a "newbie" comes on this forum and asks about getting into streaming the same group immediately starts up with the multi-box Roon setups when all the person may need is a basic streamer until they acclimated but that is not the kind of recommendation they get. If this did not apply to you then you would not have responded as if you are personally offended. And just as you claim to have the right to express your opinion over and over so do I and will do so every time this starts up.

    As to Aqua if Roon wants to test and certify the Roon Module which was submitted to them then do so but they have no right to examine separate modules that have nothing to do with the operation of their software. And just to throw their weight around stall the certification until they got there way. That's my opinion and I am not alone.

    As to you not buying a device that's not "Roon Certified" you have stated on more occasions than I can count that you think building your own box is the best way so you will never buy one anyway. So not sure why it matters to you at all.
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  42. #242
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    There are a handful of guys on this forum, some of whom go from forum to forum everyday, defending and promoting Roon as if they were Roon employees. It is just a piece of software not a "religious movement" even though it is treated as such by a group of people.
    Talk about cult and this is one of the finest example in audio industry. Man, ever talk in Roon forums against their s/w and pointing our flaws and where they can improve and you will be hammered to death by the same fan followers over and over again....such a mess where they can't even sportingly take sound advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Just like every time a "newbie" comes on this forum and asks about getting into streaming the same group immediately starts up with the multi-box Roon setups when all the person may need is a basic streamer until they acclimated but that is not the kind of recommendation they get.
    People who recommends multi-box setup just don't realize that the protocols (ROON RAAT) employing these multiple boxes is actually lossy. Sometimes simplifying things benefits SQ.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post

    As to Aqua if Roon wants to test and certify the Roon Module which was submitted to them then do so but they have no right to examine separate modules that have nothing to do with the operation of their software. And just to throw their weight around stall the certification until they got there way. That's my opinion and I am not alone.

    As to you not buying a device that's not "Roon Certified" you have stated on more occasions than I can count that you think building your own box is the best way so you will never buy one anyway. So not sure why it matters to you at all.
    Roon actually has no right to ask for hardware that doesn't touch their s/w. Its a BS claims they make that they need the other module to certify it as Roon ready - if you design s/w properly and have proper interfaces, the rest can be just treated as a black box.

    If the manufacturer is proactively giving it to them to test, that's another story but if the manufacturer (Aqua is this case) is opposed to this idea, Roon's aggressiveness is not a good sign. In the end, it actually hearts the customers. I feel bad for that poor guy who just bought the LINQ and found himself in trouble. Honestly Roon is making a big mess out of it - can't see the forest for the trees!

  43. #243
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    I feel bad for that poor guy who just bought the LINQ and found himself in trouble. Honestly Roon is making a big mess out of it - can't see the forest for the trees!
    Bingo!!!! Couldn't have said it better myself...

  44. #244
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Yes Jack you are right and all people who enjoy Roon are wrong...

    Every time there is a discussion about Roon there are a few people that come in and start saying negative things about the product. Whenever one of the people who enjoy their product come in and express their positive experiences some people start the snarky remarks, like those that enjoy the product are wrong in defending it. It is rather hypocritical.

    Roon certified and Roon ready is for DACs also and that is what I am referring to.

    Oh, and for the record, I do not post on any other forum, about Roon or other products other than headphone discussions very occasionally on Head-Fi...

    And once again here we go, gaining up on members who were in fact having a good discussion before others started changing the tone. Thank you once again... you few make coming to AS just so enjoyable.

    Anyway, I will not be pulled into this again....
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  45. #245
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    It's only a good discussion to you if nobody disagrees with you and your specific philosophy about how streaming should work. Never said you were wrong about what you believe is right for you but it is not the answer for everyone as you seem to believe. I have owned seven different streamers from five different companies and run more streaming software suites than that so I have a little experience on the subject as opposed to just having one approach. It just doesn't have to be your approach and I don't try to convince everyone else that it is the best way like the Roon gang does. Roon is only one way and not the only way and certainly not the only right way. That is my point this time and every time but you don't seem to grasp that but instead try to make out that it is personal and say you are out yet you never are.

    Also none your points in your last post has anything to do with the current topic in this thread which is Roon demanding to have in their possession the three LinQ modules that have nothing to do with Roon before they agree to complete certification. Instead as usual always in defense of anything Roon from UI, sound, to their policies. That type of stance has nothing to do with "enjoying Roon" but goes far beyond that.
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  46. #246
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Randy
    As to Aqua if Roon wants to test and certify the Roon Module which was submitted to them then do so but they have no right to examine separate modules that have nothing to do with the operation of their software. And just to throw their weight around stall the certification until they got there way. That's my opinion and I am not alone.
    I think you are wrong here.

    Aqua Roon module is not stand alone, like MSB Renderer module for example.

    All Aqua LinQ modules share a single Ethernet input, so I agree with Roon that input switching between say UPNP and Roon may potentially cause issues.

    I'm pretty sure, that MSB hasn't been asked to provide all SPDIF / analog IO modules for testing with their DACs as they are different in concept.
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    I do not know what other manufacturers were required to submit for their certification process, but I do know that Roon Ready "convenience switching" requirement applies to both Ethernet and non-Ethernet inputs, i.e. a Roon Ready device must automatically switch from (stop) the other input (SPDIF, USB input, UPnP, NAA, Spotify Connect, etc.) upon Roon playback, without any glitch and without requiring user intervention.
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  48. #248

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by wklie View Post
    I do not know what other manufacturers were required to submit for their certification process, but I do know that Roon Ready "convenience switching" requirement applies to both Ethernet and non-Ethernet inputs, i.e. a Roon Ready device must automatically switch from (stop) the other input (SPDIF, USB input, UPnP, NAA, Spotify Connect, etc.) upon Roon playback, without any glitch and without requiring user intervention.
    That’s a really big ask for manufacturers and I imagine makes architecture more complicated. I get making it easy for the end user but that would agitate me as a manufacturer. Seems like they want others to manufacture audio components for them vs. trying to work with the manufacturers to create an proper ecosystem. They want to be the Apple of high end audio but don’t want to make the hardware.

    If Roon wants to make this easier for the end user how about they start by fixing the large amount of bugs in their server and iPad app. Not sure how long they will last as more and more manufacturers, then users, hop off their bandwagon. Many of the very high end manufacturers are adding Roon as a cool feature since users ask for it. They mostly focus their generally limited R&D budget on the sound produced not on networking components.

    The way this is all unforlding I imagine Roon will end up supporting a hand full of streaming devices that can be added to a system. If you want it then buy the supported component and connect it to your DAC.
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Roon's requirement is described in this Roon forum post and the same thread also contains a video that shows one user's LinQ failing to behave as required.

    To my knowledge, the same sort of requirement applies to every other multi-tenant device using OTT services and applications, because if the suspended or backgrounded activity still continued even after you switched away then things would never be in the correct state from the user perspective.
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    I have played with Roon core/bridge/rock for quiet a bit and still like and use it on regular basis (though its not the best SQ playback s/w in my setup) but I am still not able to understand this ask. Perhaps I do not understand Roon Ready well enough but isn’t it of the best interest of the manufacturers themselves to actually test the input switching and fix it in case it doesn’t work ? This looks like a basic test to me. Why should Roon have to test when it requires other hardware that doesn’t involve Roon - I understand its their policy for certification but their policy seems out of bounds.

    What do you do if, say for LInQ HQP module Miska (Hqp developer) has objection to send something running his code to other 3rd parties for verification ? It gets very dubious when there is a conflict of interest.

    This looks more like a paranoia stemming out for the control in the name of software redistribution.

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Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com

Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.

Sincerely,
The Audioshark.org Team

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