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  1. #151
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    And everybody has their own opinion. Mike uses all of it on a daily basis and even sells Roon and it's products and he might not agree with you. If I wanted all the complication I still have a full vinyl rig and 2000+ albums I can fuss over.
    Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon DL-301 Mk II, Gold Note PH-10, Nuprime CDT-8, Auralic Aries G1, Aqua La Voce S3, Supratek Chardonnay, PS Audio BHK 250, Verity Otello, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Audio Envy IC's & PC's, Triode Wire Lab SC, PC's & USB , PS Audio Stellar P3, Timbernation rack

    Family Room - Oppo UDP-203, Teac NT505, Kinki Studio EX-M1+, Nola KO, (2) Rythmik F-12G, Wireworld SC & IC's, Neotech PC's, SurgeX SA-1810

    Travelers Rest, SC- Marantz HD-CD1, Auralic Aries, PSA Directstream Sr., Audia Flight FL Three S, Harbeth C7-ES3 (2) RSL Speedwoofers, PI Audio Uberbuss, Audio Sensibility IC's and SC's, Triode Wire Lab PC's.

  2. #152
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Dev

    I don't know anything about the UI or the Library management features and have no reason to find out as I only use my streamers for Tidal and Qobuz and the Internet radio function. If I want to hear what's on my CD's or vinyl I just play them. I am not surprised that Mike and others have said that the sound quality of Roon which is a one size fits all solution falls short of the dedicated software in sound quality. I find nothing missing in the sound or UI of of either LDS or the Lumin app that would make me go through the hassle or expense of the Roon software or the extra hardware. My opinion and we all have our own and don't need to convince everybody else that our way is the best and only way.
    Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon DL-301 Mk II, Gold Note PH-10, Nuprime CDT-8, Auralic Aries G1, Aqua La Voce S3, Supratek Chardonnay, PS Audio BHK 250, Verity Otello, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Audio Envy IC's & PC's, Triode Wire Lab SC, PC's & USB , PS Audio Stellar P3, Timbernation rack

    Family Room - Oppo UDP-203, Teac NT505, Kinki Studio EX-M1+, Nola KO, (2) Rythmik F-12G, Wireworld SC & IC's, Neotech PC's, SurgeX SA-1810

    Travelers Rest, SC- Marantz HD-CD1, Auralic Aries, PSA Directstream Sr., Audia Flight FL Three S, Harbeth C7-ES3 (2) RSL Speedwoofers, PI Audio Uberbuss, Audio Sensibility IC's and SC's, Triode Wire Lab PC's.

  3. #153
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    I suppose if you listen to Internet radio, or other Internet music sources then Roon might be useful. However, I buy all my music as either CDs that I rip, or high-res downloads from HDTracks, so Roon is unnecessary. The Lumin app is just fine for my needs.
    Bud

    Lumin X1 file player
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR for preamp, Denali 2000 (2) for amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.

  4. #154
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Dev

    I don't know anything about the UI or the Library management features and have no reason to find out as I only use my streamers for Tidal and Qobuz and the Internet radio function. If I want to hear what's on my CD's or vinyl I just play them.
    The UI/Lib management/AI features of Roon is slick. Once you are accustomed to it, there is no going back. Again I haven't used Lumin/Aurender/Auralic, so I don't know how they compare but I know some others like Innuous has and the UI feels pretty amateurish after you are used to Roon :-)


    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    I am not surprised that Mike and others have said that the sound quality of Roon which is a one size fits all solution falls short of the dedicated software in sound quality.
    I have bought the sound quality issue with Roon a while back on this forum when folks thought it otherwise....so I am very much aware of it.

  5. #155
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Auralic, Lumin and Aurender use their own proprietary in house software.
    Ok, but I am curious to know what OS are they using, Linux ? Don't think they run Windows though but I could be mistaken.

  6. #156
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    Ok, but I am curious to know what OS are they using, Linux ? Don't think they run Windows though but I could be mistaken.
    Don't quote me, but I believe Lumin uses a stripped down version of Linux. However, the app that controls the files being played runs on the OS used by the iPhone.
    Bud

    Lumin X1 file player
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR for preamp, Denali 2000 (2) for amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.

  7. #157
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    As far as I know they are all Linux based. I was all set last year to try one of the Euphony PTS streamers but Arthur ran out of stock and Euphony was too busy building out their new top of the line unit to worry about the PTS. I wanted to try the Stylus software as I had heard good things about it. In the meantime I got caught up in the second house project and kind of put that aside. Arthur reached out to me last week to let me know that had stock again but since I am going back and forth between two places for now it is not convenient to learn a new OS. Maybe after the first of the year.
    Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon DL-301 Mk II, Gold Note PH-10, Nuprime CDT-8, Auralic Aries G1, Aqua La Voce S3, Supratek Chardonnay, PS Audio BHK 250, Verity Otello, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Audio Envy IC's & PC's, Triode Wire Lab SC, PC's & USB , PS Audio Stellar P3, Timbernation rack

    Family Room - Oppo UDP-203, Teac NT505, Kinki Studio EX-M1+, Nola KO, (2) Rythmik F-12G, Wireworld SC & IC's, Neotech PC's, SurgeX SA-1810

    Travelers Rest, SC- Marantz HD-CD1, Auralic Aries, PSA Directstream Sr., Audia Flight FL Three S, Harbeth C7-ES3 (2) RSL Speedwoofers, PI Audio Uberbuss, Audio Sensibility IC's and SC's, Triode Wire Lab PC's.

  8. #158

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    And everybody has their own opinion. Mike uses all of it on a daily basis and even sells Roon and it's products and he might not agree with you. If I wanted all the complication I still have a full vinyl rig and 2000+ albums I can fuss over.
    Yes, but, respectfully, as I am the customer in this case, I get to decide what constitutes a value proposition for me. The dealers job, in this particular case, is to understand my specific needs, translate those into product requirements, and then help me make an informed decision about which product offerings constitute a value proposition for me.

  9. #159

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    Roon is indeed excellent for the UI and library management and its second to none. Not so much on the sound quality side. I haven't heard Auralic, Lumin or Aurender, so can't compare but I can definitely say that the Innuous player will beat Roon in terms of sound quality any day.
    Iím not so sure, Dev. The Innuos might be better if the music server/streamer is in the music rack near the DAC, compared to Roon, but Iím not at all convinced that if the music server and Roon core is 40 feet away from the DAC, and thereís optical fiber, extremely clean linear power supplies, and an EtherReGEN, between the music server and DAC, that that would still be the case. I would love to do the experiment to find out, especially as I gave serious consideration to getting an Innuos. Hopefully, we can get together someday, and find out. Cheers.

  10. #160
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    And as I am also a customer in your scenario I also get to make the choice and it is not going to coincide with yours. You buy all the parts and pieces you think are necessary to run what you think is an "optimum" Roon system while I "make do" with my simple multiple linear power supply streamer with it's well thought out dedicated software. In the end we get to the same place with my solution being far less complicated and more than likely a whole lot less costly than your multi piece solution with high end ethernet cables, USB cables, switches and LPS's. Then we both get to decide for ourselves and not anybody else how it sounds to us. Your solution is not always right for anybody but yourself nor is mine and in the end that is all that counts. You don't try to sell me on yours being the only right way and I will do the same.
    Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon DL-301 Mk II, Gold Note PH-10, Nuprime CDT-8, Auralic Aries G1, Aqua La Voce S3, Supratek Chardonnay, PS Audio BHK 250, Verity Otello, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Audio Envy IC's & PC's, Triode Wire Lab SC, PC's & USB , PS Audio Stellar P3, Timbernation rack

    Family Room - Oppo UDP-203, Teac NT505, Kinki Studio EX-M1+, Nola KO, (2) Rythmik F-12G, Wireworld SC & IC's, Neotech PC's, SurgeX SA-1810

    Travelers Rest, SC- Marantz HD-CD1, Auralic Aries, PSA Directstream Sr., Audia Flight FL Three S, Harbeth C7-ES3 (2) RSL Speedwoofers, PI Audio Uberbuss, Audio Sensibility IC's and SC's, Triode Wire Lab PC's.

  11. #161
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Jack is correct. We use Roon a lot in the store because many of our products require it. We also help customers with Roon Nucleusí and the like.

    Roon is hands down the UI champ. Itís search function and UI are second to none. Very powerful too.

    However, for us in the store and me at home (I have Roon running for my NAIM music server which I use in the family room) and itís buggy in both places, buggy as hell. Iíve been taking videos and will soon start a channel and post them. Itís constantly crashing and it hangs ALL. THE. TIME.

    On the flip side, the Lumin app is stable and Iíve been using it so long, and sounds great. It is basic, but fully functional with great support from Peter and the rest of the gang. But certainly itís not as pretty as Roon. The good news is that Lumin gives you the option of using their software or Roon.

    Aurender is the same way: stable, functional and sonically superior to Roon in our A:B tests using the same DAC, cables, etc. Aurender repeatedly says ďitís all about the sound.Ē Thatís always their focus first. Their app is very nice and I use it at home in the big system. Stable and sounds incredible.

    You just canít beat Roon for search and the gorgeous UI. But in my experience and several A/B tests, sonically it gives up a little something to the competitors.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, Esoteric, Estelon Loudspeakers, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  12. #162
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    For me, itís the meta data that ROON brings to its UI that pulls me towards it. I really enjoy following the reviews and links to new albums, composers, contributing artists etc. I do that while I am listening and it adds to the experience.

    IF I am giving up a little SQ, I am willing to do that.

    However, I have as Mike points out, started to see its reliability/stability degrade. If that continues I will reluctantly have to find an alternative.

  13. #163
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    My favorite feature is Roon Radio and the way it interacts with Qobuz. It allows me to discover new music thatís aligned with my individual taste in music. Getting the maximum value out of Roon Radio requires providing feedback to their algorithm by pressing the thumbs up/down icons with tracks you like/dislike. The more feedback you give, the better the algorithm gets at learning your musical taste. It doesnít require you to rate every song, but the more you rate the less likely RR will serve up songs you donít like.

  14. #164
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    Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    One final topic is support. As a dealer, we have received incredible support from Lumin (Peter rocks!) and Aurender. With the Aurender support, itís built into the app. Click the support button and Aurender will remotely IP into your Aurender and diagnose the issue while youíre asleep. 99% of the time they can fix any issues remotely. Awesome!

    When our Roon Nucleus in the store stopped working earlier this year, I had no support person to call for help. I emailed Roon, two days later got a response was told to go to the portal.

    Went to the portal, requested support and waited. It basically went like this:

    Day 1: send email
    Day 2: no response
    Day 3: told to go to portal
    Day 3: went to portal and filled out form for support
    Day 4: no response
    Day 5: asked if we rebooted the nucleus, responded that we tried to but it was dead. Wouldnt turn on.
    Day 6: no response
    Day 7: asked if we see a red light on inside. Responded that we did.
    Day 8: no response
    Day 9: asked if we see a white light on inside. Responded that we did not.
    Day 10: no response
    ...

    .....and this went on for several more days before we finally got a RA#.

    You can imagine the F bombs from me. Itís bloody ridiculous that as a busy dealer we are having to jump through these hoops for support.

    You can see the issue here. We couldnít run Roon in the store and as a dealer, we needed a replacement ASAP, not three weeks later.

    You wonít see Roon on our website anymore. I will not carry Roon products like the licenses and hardware (Nucleus) until they get their act together for supporting dealers. We are referring people to that Andrew fellow at Small Green Computer for now.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, Esoteric, Estelon Loudspeakers, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  15. #165
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    I have never once had an issue with Roon. It just works every time for me.

    A buddy recently had an issue. After the latest update his system stopped working. I told him it sounded like his very old Mac was using a very old OS and had probably finally reached its end of life. I told him to post in their forums. He did this and a short time later a Roon support person replied that he indeed needed to update his Mac OS. When he did this everything worked perfect again. Since I keep my PC up to date I have never encountered an issue such as this.

    I have found that Roon monitors their forums and reply quickly to people who post about an issue. This also works well for doing a quick search for support issues if you ever encounter one. I cannot say that the search answers all the questions because I have not personally had any issues.
    Amps: Hattor "The Big", Hattor Tube Active Stage, Bel Canto REF500S, T+A AMP 8, McIntosh MC754, Bryston BHA-1
    Vinyl: Rega RP8 w/Rega Neo PSU, Rega Ania Pro, Moon 310LP, Hexmat Yellow Bird, Record Doctor VI
    Digital: Falcon Northwest PC Server, T+A DAC 8 DSD, W4S Recovery, Roon & HQPlayer, Astell&Kern AK240
    Transducers: Magnepan MG .7's w/Magna Riser Stands, Rythmik L12's (x2), B&W MM-1's, Abyss Diana Phi's
    Other: McIntosh MR7083, Oppo BDP105, AudioQuest Niagara 1000

  16. #166

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Jack is correct. We use Roon a lot in the store because many of our products require it. We also help customers with Roon Nucleusí and the like.

    Roon is hands down the UI champ. Itís search function and UI are second to none. Very powerful too.

    However, for us in the store and me at home (I have Roon running for my NAIM music server which I use in the family room) and itís buggy in both places, buggy as hell. Iíve been taking videos and will soon start a channel and post them. Itís constantly crashing and it hangs ALL. THE. TIME.

    On the flip side, the Lumin app is stable and Iíve been using it so long, and sounds great. It is basic, but fully functional with great support from Peter and the rest of the gang. But certainly itís not as pretty as Roon. The good news is that Lumin gives you the option of using their software or Roon.

    Aurender is the same way: stable, functional and sonically superior to Roon in our A:B tests using the same DAC, cables, etc. Aurender repeatedly says ďitís all about the sound.Ē Thatís always their focus first. Their app is very nice and I use it at home in the big system. Stable and sounds incredible.

    You just canít beat Roon for search and the gorgeous UI. But in my experience and several A/B tests, sonically it gives up a little something to the competitors.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Are you saying Roon is buggy as hell and crashes all the time? If so, are you talking about the Roon core or the Roon app on your iPad or phone crashing?
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

  17. #167

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    But several of them seem to offer better sound quality with less equipment hassle and expense. Many of us live quite happily with the software from Lumin, Aurender, Auralic and Innuous etc and see no need for the extra gear or software.
    It is interesting that among those you have listed above, only Aurender has no association with Roon. Auralic and Lumin have multiple products that are certified as Roon Ready. All of Innuos products are marketed as compatible with Roon Core and Bridge. Much like auto manufacturers who spend thousands of dollars to develop their own proprietary infotainment systems while at the same time offering customers the option to use Apple Carplay or Android Auto instead.
    Anthony
    Analog: VPI CLASSIC 3/Ortofon A95> ASR Basis Exclusive HV---->

    Digital: Antipodes CX> CARY DMS-600 DAC/Streamer---->
    ...........Cary 306 SACD PRO Disc Player---->

    ===> Cary SLP-05 (Ultimate Upgrade edition)----> Clayton M-300----> MARTIN LOGAN SPIRES

    [Synergistic Research/Furutech/Blue Circle/SRA/Adona/ Stillpoints/Track Audio/GIK Acoustics]

  18. #168

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    I have never once had an issue with Roon. It just works every time for me.
    ...
    Same here.

  19. #169
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Are you saying Roon is buggy as hell and crashes all the time? If so, are you talking about the Roon core or the Roon app on your iPad or phone crashing?
    We arenít 100% sure. I believe itís the core, because we use 2 iPads and my phone in the store to control Roon and all are doing the same thing. Weíve replaced the core. No change.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, Esoteric, Estelon Loudspeakers, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  20. #170

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    We arenít 100% sure. I believe itís the core, because we use 2 iPads and my phone in the store to control Roon and all are doing the same thing. Weíve replaced the core. No change.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    In my experience, the Roon core running on my Nucleus+ is extremely stable. I have never had to power down my Nucleus+ to solve any problems. What does happen is that the Roon remote app running on my iPad occasionally loses the wireless "handshake" with the Roon Nucleus+ which means it can't find the Roon core. To fix the problem, you just reboot the iPad and restart the Roon app and all is well in the digital world.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

  21. #171
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Doing a demo on Friday and this is an example of what happens:

    ROON IS BUGGY!!!!! - YouTube


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, Esoteric, Estelon Loudspeakers, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  22. #172
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    ...Roon is hands down the UI champ. Itís search function and UI are second to none. Very powerful too.

    However, for us in the store and me at home (I have Roon running for my NAIM music server which I use in the family room) and itís buggy in both places, buggy as hell. Iíve been taking videos and will soon start a channel and post them. Itís constantly crashing and it hangs ALL. THE. TIME.

    On the flip side, the Lumin app is stable and Iíve been using it so long, and sounds great. It is basic, but fully functional with great support from Peter and the rest of the gang. But certainly itís not as pretty as Roon. The good news is that Lumin gives you the option of using their software or Roon.

    Aurender is the same way: stable, functional and sonically superior to Roon in our A:B tests using the same DAC, cables, etc. Aurender repeatedly says ďitís all about the sound.Ē Thatís always their focus first. Their app is very nice and I use it at home in the big system. Stable and sounds incredible.

    You just canít beat Roon for search and the gorgeous UI. But in my experience and several A/B tests, sonically it gives up a little something to the competitors.
    i can understand your frustration. in many ways there is a parallel here with apple (sorry randy!) deciding to have a closed system: their software running on their hardware. in doing so they are in complete control of the total user experience and do not have to engineer down to the lowest common denominator, an impossible task. alternatively, when a company (microsoft, roon) has an open system allowing their software to run on anyone's hardware then that company effectively cedes control of the total user experience which is now influenced by a whole host of issues out of their control.

    for the most part everything works fine. however, there are always edge/extreme use cases, under spec'd hardware, compatibility issues, etc. when on the roon community/support site one can see there are plenty of users seeking help with a variety of problems which roon support tries to help with. anecdotally, i would estimate that 99+ out of 100 of these support requests result from individual users hardware, networking gear / configuration and the like -- in other words, things out of their control but unavoidable in an open system.

    given the number of subscribers, it is already an issue for them to troubleshoot and help solve the volume of these external, user-specific issues. this is not a scalable solution and they will certainly have to find an alternative.

    so, it is easy to understand why lumin, aurender, etc don't see these problems -- they only have to ensure their playback software works on a handful of boxes. and, support is limited to the comparatively small number of people buying their expensive gear.

    interesting decision here: closed system + tighter UX + specific harware --versus-- open system + more potential issues + unlimited hardware choices.

    personally, i chose apple long ago for its closed system and the "it just works" UX. conversely, i choose roon for its open system and hardware flexibility ...hmmmm
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  23. #173

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    We arenít 100% sure. I believe itís the core, because we use 2 iPads and my phone in the store to control Roon and all are doing the same thing. Weíve replaced the core. No change.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    If I recall, you are running Roon Core on a Nucleus machine. You may have already done this, but if you have a PC or Mac machine at home, why not installing and running Roon Core on one of those? If Roon quits crashing/freezing, then you know for sure that the problem is the Nucleus machine that you were using.

    I have always been skeptical of software companies that decide to become hardware manufacturers. In truth, Roon outsources the manufacturing of the Nucleus machines and are likely depending on someone elseís QC for those machines.

  24. #174
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    If I recall, you are running Roon Core on a Nucleus machine. You may have already done this, but if you have a PC or Mac machine at home, why not installing and running Roon Core on one of those? If Roon quits crashing/freezing, then you know for sure that the problem is the Nucleus machine that you were using.

    I have always been skeptical of software companies that decide to become hardware manufacturers. In truth, Roon outsources the manufacturing of the Nucleus machines and are likely depending on someone elseís QC for those machines.
    We have a fast MacBook Pro in the store. Tried that a few months ago. Still choking. Actually, was even worse! Maybe I need a SGC i9.


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  25. #175

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    I have a friend that just got Roon and said it crashed several times right after install. I have mine installed on a ASUS i5 MINI and it has worked flawlessly now for several months. For me it is the most stable software I have used for playing music. I have used JRiver, Kodi, and Plex and all were buggy.

    Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk

  26. #176

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by aKnyght View Post
    i can understand your frustration. in many ways there is a parallel here with apple (sorry randy!) deciding to have a closed system: their software running on their hardware. in doing so they are in complete control of the total user experience and do not have to engineer down to the lowest common denominator, an impossible task. alternatively, when a company (microsoft, roon) has an open system allowing their software to run on anyone's hardware then that company effectively cedes control of the total user experience which is now influenced by a whole host of issues out of their control.

    for the most part everything works fine. however, there are always edge/extreme use cases, under spec'd hardware, compatibility issues, etc. when on the roon community/support site one can see there are plenty of users seeking help with a variety of problems which roon support tries to help with. anecdotally, i would estimate that 99+ out of 100 of these support requests result from individual users hardware, networking gear / configuration and the like -- in other words, things out of their control but unavoidable in an open system.

    given the number of subscribers, it is already an issue for them to troubleshoot and help solve the volume of these external, user-specific issues. this is not a scalable solution and they will certainly have to find an alternative.

    so, it is easy to understand why lumin, aurender, etc don't see these problems -- they only have to ensure their playback software works on a handful of boxes. and, support is limited to the comparatively small number of people buying their expensive gear.

    interesting decision here: closed system + tighter UX + specific harware --versus-- open system + more potential issues + unlimited hardware choices.

    personally, i chose apple long ago for its closed system and the "it just works" UX. conversely, i choose roon for its open system and hardware flexibility ...hmmmm
    From the get go Apple offered a package (hardware with integrated software).

    That is not the case with Roon which started being a software company only.

    Roon got into hardware to attract non-techie folks who were averse to dealing with computer audio and wanted a plug and play device. That is why Nucleus was born. If a person feels comfortable with computers, I still believe that dollar for dollar a PC (from a quality manufacturer) or a Mac is a better option, because you get a more powerful machine to run power hungry FIR filters and/or players like HQPlayer.

  27. #177
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Don't use Mac. There are several outstanding issues.

    For people who are knowledgeable about computers, my standard recommendation is a NUC8i7BEH m.2 SSD 8GB RAM to run ROCK in a fanless chassis and get a LPS from Mike.
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  28. #178
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by wklie View Post
    Don't use Mac. There are several outstanding issues.

    For people who are knowledgeable about computers, my standard recommendation is a NUC8i7BEH m.2 SSD 8GB RAM to run ROCK in a fanless chassis and get a LPS from Mike.
    Thanks! Will give that a try.


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  29. #179
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    We arenít 100% sure. I believe itís the core, because we use 2 iPads and my phone in the store to control Roon and all are doing the same thing. Weíve replaced the core. No change.
    If the Core is indeed crashing and replacing the hardware does not solve the problem you're experiencing, then I'll have to suspect the Roon library is corrupted, or one or more particular music file is crashing it. Please rebuild the music library from scratch - or perhaps just add Tidal / Qobuz music first without including your own files.

    In case replaced hardware and rebuilt library does not solve the crash problem, or a music file is crashing Roon, I'm afraid you'll need to create a support thread in Roon forum, have Roon staff enable diagnostics for your account, then they can study the crash log.
    Peter Lie
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  30. #180

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Roon is hands down the UI champ. Itís search function and UI are second to none. Very powerful too.
    I agree with you on the UI. I actually think jriver beats all the other competitors when it comes to search flexibility and functionality. That part of their program was definitely written by a geek (meant in a good way).

    I have found Roon's search to be a little limiting.

    Stylus's search in Euphony is also very powerful and continues to expand.
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  31. #181
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by wklie View Post
    If the Core is indeed crashing and replacing the hardware does not solve the problem you're experiencing, then I'll have to suspect the Roon library is corrupted, or one or more particular music file is crashing it. Please rebuild the music library from scratch - or perhaps just add Tidal / Qobuz music first without including your own files.

    In case replaced hardware and rebuilt library does not solve the crash problem, or a music file is crashing Roon, I'm afraid you'll need to create a support thread in Roon forum, have Roon staff enable diagnostics for your account, then they can study the crash log.
    Weíve rebuilt the Roon library several times. I think our next step is a more powerful computer. An i9 or something.


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  32. #182
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    ...Roon got into hardware to attract non-techie folks who were averse to dealing with computer audio and wanted a plug and play device. That is why Nucleus was born. If a person feels comfortable with computers, I still believe that dollar for dollar a PC (from a quality manufacturer) or a Mac is a better option, because you get a more powerful machine to run power hungry FIR filters and/or players like HQPlayer.
    up until your post i never really thought of roon as a software + hardware package company as their main focus is clearly software ...but i guess they kind of are.
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  33. #183
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by wklie View Post
    If the Core is indeed crashing and replacing the hardware does not solve the problem you're experiencing, then I'll have to suspect the Roon library is corrupted, or one or more particular music file is crashing it. Please rebuild the music library from scratch - or perhaps just add Tidal / Qobuz music first without including your own files.

    In case replaced hardware and rebuilt library does not solve the crash problem, or a music file is crashing Roon, I'm afraid you'll need to create a support thread in Roon forum, have Roon staff enable diagnostics for your account, then they can study the crash log.
    +1 to this thread of investigation.

    It doesn't look like Core is crashing, since music was still playing and the Roon Client was still connected to something. Database corruption or local I/O (hard disk or network) problems are one possibility, and remote network problems is another (default network timeouts are often ~2 minutes which means you could see a spinner for 2 minutes if the developer doesn't do something special). There could also be a bug in something that other people aren't hitting for whatever reason, e.g. collation for presentation when using multiple local and/or streaming sources.

    But a debug log would hopefully help Roon diagnose the problem.
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  34. #184
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by NekoAudio View Post
    +1 to this thread of investigation.

    It doesn't look like Core is crashing, since music was still playing and the Roon Client was still connected to something. Database corruption or local I/O (hard disk or network) problems are one possibility, and remote network problems is another (default network timeouts are often ~2 minutes which means you could see a spinner for 2 minutes if the developer doesn't do something special). There could also be a bug in something that other people aren't hitting for whatever reason, e.g. collation for presentation when using multiple local and/or streaming sources.

    But a debug log would hopefully help Roon diagnose the problem.
    The exact same thing happens to me at home with Roon. Different network. Different everything. Single source for streaming.
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  35. #185
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Mike, have you tried having your active library consisting of only locally installed music files/folders? Just curious. The first thing that has to be done is to actually determine exact what is causing the problem... computer power (very unlikely), corrupt hard drive, corrupt or out of date OS, drivers, network, cables, etc.

    As I have stated, I only run local files and really have never experienced any issues. My old computer never experienced any issues either until the CPU crapped out. this is why I say I doubt it is not having a powerful enough computer.

    Have you tried a Windows PC? I have seen more people having issues with Macs and I also know for sure (because my buddy experienced it and resolved it). It is absolutely essential to update to a certain level of the Mac OS. This resolved my buddies mac issues.
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  36. #186
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    I am a bit surprised to see Roon issues and crashes. Maybe I am just lucky but apart from few times they broke with new releases (but got fixed very soon with a follow up release), my Roon setup has been working flawlessly on the Linux server :-)

  37. #187
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    Mike, have you tried having your active library consisting of only locally installed music files/folders? Just curious. The first thing that has to be done is to actually determine exact what is causing the problem... computer power (very unlikely), corrupt hard drive, corrupt or out of date OS, drivers, network, cables, etc.

    As I have stated, I only run local files and really have never experienced any issues. My old computer never experienced any issues either until the CPU crapped out. this is why I say I doubt it is not having a powerful enough computer.

    Have you tried a Windows PC? I have seen more people having issues with Macs and I also know for sure (because my buddy experienced it and resolved it). It is absolutely essential to update to a certain level of the Mac OS. This resolved my buddies mac issues.
    We are running a NAS (Synology 1812+). The laptop has the latest version of Mac OS.

    My hunch is that Roon constantly wants to update the library and our library is large. My guess is that itís getting stuck somewhere. But that being said, my home setup is completely different and still has the same issues. Itís why I want to try something a little more powerful.


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  38. #188
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    I have been using Roon for 4 years. I have yet to experience Roon crashing.

    I have the Roon Server installed on my fanless desktop PC computer (with i5-6500T CPU) which works 24/7. I'm using this computer daily for my email, web browsing etc.
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  39. #189
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Are you running only Core, not the entire stand alone Roon install? Running only the Core setup is much better and much less over head. The is no reason for the GUI to be installed on the "server" machine. The controller (tablet, another PC, phone, surface, etc.) runs the controller and meta data portion. Separating them out is a huge improvement.
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  40. #190
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    Are you running only Core, not the entire stand alone Roon install? Running only the Core setup is much better and much less over head. The is no reason for the GUI to be installed on the "server" machine. The controller (tablet, another PC, phone, surface, etc.) runs the controller and meta data portion. Separating them out is a huge improvement.
    Yup, only Roon core. I originally thought it was our slightly older iPad, so I bought us a new iPad Pro. The issues were the same. Ditto for my phone. Iím really thinking I need a faster NUC for the core.

    When it hangs, I usually see it processing the library update here:




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  41. #191
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Jack is correct. We use Roon a lot in the store because many of our products require it. We also help customers with Roon Nucleusí and the like.

    Roon is hands down the UI champ. Itís search function and UI are second to none. Very powerful too.

    However, for us in the store and me at home (I have Roon running for my NAIM music server which I use in the family room) and itís buggy in both places, buggy as hell. Iíve been taking videos and will soon start a channel and post them. Itís constantly crashing and it hangs ALL. THE. TIME.

    On the flip side, the Lumin app is stable and Iíve been using it so long, and sounds great. It is basic, but fully functional with great support from Peter and the rest of the gang. But certainly itís not as pretty as Roon. The good news is that Lumin gives you the option of using their software or Roon.

    Aurender is the same way: stable, functional and sonically superior to Roon in our A:B tests using the same DAC, cables, etc. Aurender repeatedly says ďitís all about the sound.Ē Thatís always their focus first. Their app is very nice and I use it at home in the big system. Stable and sounds incredible.

    You just canít beat Roon for search and the gorgeous UI. But in my experience and several A/B tests, sonically it gives up a little something to the competitors.


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    If you are still using gigaFoils eliminate those and your problems "might" disappear. I know that mine did.

    I have heard other individuals get the occasional dropout when using a iPad to control Roon. Yet if they wirelessly control Roon with their laptop no issues.

    I understand as a dealer you would like to have virtually every album any customer might want to have at your fingertips but that is what the search function in Qobuz and Tidal are for. Eliminate some of the 10,000 albums you (just a figure I pulled out of the air) have stored or tagged and maybe that will get rid of the bugs.
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  42. #192
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    Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by still-one View Post
    If you are still using gigaFoils eliminate those and your problems "might" disappear. I know that mine did.

    I have heard other individuals get the occasional dropout when using a iPad to control Roon. Yet if they wirelessly control Roon with their laptop no issues.

    I understand as a dealer you would like to have virtually every album any customer might want to have at your fingertips but that is what the search function in Qobuz and Tidal are for. Eliminate some of the 10,000 albums you (just a figure I pulled out of the air) have stored or tagged and maybe that will get rid of the bugs.
    Nope, we took those out as step one.

    We will figure it out. We have to, we have so many Roon devices in the store.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

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  43. #193
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Have you tried have only a small library as a trial... Maybe put a few albums into a separate folder and use that as the only folder in the library. I doubt it is the case but it might be possible that the library is over loaded.

    Do you have different type of files in different folders? These folders can be individually added or subtracted within Roon. I have DSD in one folder, SACD_Rips in another, CD_Rips in another, Downloaded_Flacs in another, and so forth... Each of these can be individually added or removed from Roon... Try a smaller amount of files, or a temporary folder with a few albums in it as a test.
    Amps: Hattor "The Big", Hattor Tube Active Stage, Bel Canto REF500S, T+A AMP 8, McIntosh MC754, Bryston BHA-1
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  44. #194
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    Have you tried have only a small library as a trial... Maybe put a few albums into a separate folder and use that as the only folder in the library. I doubt it is the case but it might be possible that the library is over loaded.

    Do you have different type of files in different folders? These folders can be individually added or subtracted within Roon. I have DSD in one folder, SACD_Rips in another, CD_Rips in another, Downloaded_Flacs in another, and so forth... Each of these can be individually added or removed from Roon... Try a smaller amount of files, or a temporary folder with a few albums in it as a test.
    Yes. A few months ago, I set up a single folder with one album in it. We proceeded to test it for a while and it was going good. Then it started to hang and splutter.

    I donít have folders for file types, they are Genre, high res, DSD, etc.


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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

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  45. #195
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Doing a demo on Friday and this is an example of what happens:

    ROON IS BUGGY!!!!! - YouTube


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Come on Mike, upgrade your network. I realize you love your 1200 baud modem but maybe it's time for something a little more modern.

    PS - I tried Roon for about 6 months. While I loved the UI and access to meta data, the simplicity and speed of the Lumin app won me over. Cancelled Roon subscription.
    _______________

    Mike

  46. #196
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritmo View Post
    Come on Mike, upgrade your network. I realize you love your 1200 baud modem but maybe it's time for something a little more modern.
    300 baud works just fine. Love the noise it makes when we connect to this incredible thing called ďAOLĒ.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, Esoteric, Estelon Loudspeakers, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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  47. #197
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    300 baud works just fine. Love the noise it makes when we connect to this incredible thing called ďAOLĒ.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    "Goodbye!"
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  48. #198
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritmo View Post
    "Goodbye!"
    Ha, I forgot that!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, Esoteric, Estelon Loudspeakers, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
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  49. #199
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    I guess another possibility is you have some sort of virus or trojan that is eating up resources. That could explain why it is on both your home and work systems, since there's a good chance they've had some way to communicate with each other (via the network, USB sticks, etc.). It could also explain why the system seems to be overloaded even if you have a super small set of music loaded into Roon, or why the issue seems to be intermittent instead of constant.
    Neko Audio
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  50. #200
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Mike

    Maybe time to see if Arthur will let you try out the new Euphony Summus.

    Euphony SUMMUS Music Server i7
    Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon DL-301 Mk II, Gold Note PH-10, Nuprime CDT-8, Auralic Aries G1, Aqua La Voce S3, Supratek Chardonnay, PS Audio BHK 250, Verity Otello, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Audio Envy IC's & PC's, Triode Wire Lab SC, PC's & USB , PS Audio Stellar P3, Timbernation rack

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Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

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