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  1. #101
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    There are reports that some people achieved a gain in SQ by switching from Roon GUI to Roonserver, especially with a direct USB DAC connection from a computer.

    Some interference can be airborne, some amp (not just DAC) might be affected by RFI EMI for those with a computer sitting close to the audio setup.

    *NOT* implying this affects everybody and every system.
    Peter Lie
    LUMIN Firmware Lead

  2. #102
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Good point on running UI on the server itself!

    I haven't tested this theory as I run my server headless without any Xserver running but the only reason I can think of the GUI on the server with directly connected DAC can perform a bit better is because Roon now doesn't have to talk back-n-forth to its UI client which can reduce network traffic and helps further to eliminate network noise which is one of the concerning artifacts. On the flip side, the UI might consume a bit more of resources but it might not be a heavy weight application as well, depending on the server configuration. Only further testing can lead to some conclusion which one performs better for a particular system - there are too many variables with the digital audio and its incredibly hard to figure out what will work in one's system.

  3. #103
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    I decided to follow the advice given here and moved my ROON Core to one of my big servers (Windows 2016 Server) in the garage. It is connected to the network by a PowerLine adapter. I was concerned about the quality of the Powerline connection but as of now, it sounds great. The great thing of course is that I no longer have the ROON GUI up while music is playing. I get onto ROON from my remote PC and make my selections and then close the GUI.

    One interesting observation was that the CPU and GPU are much higher in the remote client situation. If I have the ROON GUI maximized I use 100% of GPU which is higher than when I had both core and client on the same box. Anyways, this is not a problem since I now shut down the GUI after I have made my selection. I could also use my phone to make the selections too.

    If anyone else is going to do this remember to backup your DB and also open up UDP port 9003 and TCP port range 9100-9200 on the firewall.

    Thanks to the posters above for the push to make this change.

  4. #104
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    I did test this early on with Roon. Actually Roon tech at the time suggested this and stated that they noticed a fairly large difference running only Roon Server (what is was called early on, now they call it Roon Core). I tried it and it was an obvious noticeable improvement running only the core on the server.
    Amps: Hattor Passive Pre, Hattor Tube Active Stage, Bel Canto REF500S, T+A AMP 8, McIntosh MC754, Bryston BHA-1
    Vinyl: Rega RP8 w/Rega Neo PSU, Rega Ania Pro, Moon 310LP, Hexmat Yellow Bird, Record Doctor VI
    Digital: Falcon Northwest PC Server, T+A DAC 8 DSD, W4S Recovery, Roon & HQPlayer
    Transducers: Magnepan MG .7's w/Magna Riser Stands, Rythmik L12's (x2), B&W MM-1's, Abyss Diana Phi's
    Other: McIntosh MR7083, Oppo BDP105, AudioQuest Niagara 1000

  5. #105
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    I recently had an issue that parallels the OP's. It involved a 3 year/old LG smart TV. We purchased the TV from a Walmart Store in my home town. It listed all the apps that the TV came with on the box. One of the apps it listed was Hulu.

    Fast forward to now, we decided that we wanted to activate the Hulu app after researching virtually every streaming app made. It was the only app that had almost all the channels and features we wanted. Our current carrier is a local (fiberoptic) cable provider.

    We knew the TV came with Hulu but when we tried activating the Hulu app nothing happened. To shorten a long story, the LG support tech told me that LG stopped supporting the Hulu app (at least for our particular model of LG smart TV). So, I have a TV that not only lists Hulu as an app, on the box. But it also appears as an app on the TV itself during start up.

    Evidently (according to the LG tech), LG discontinued support of the Hulu app on my specific LG model 08/2019. However, I was able to get Hulu on my LG smart TV using Chromecast and EZMira. We ended up not subscribing to Hulu as my wife's favorite channel was not one of those offered by Hulu.

    But I feel kind of ripped off by LG. The box showed Hulu as an app. Hulu was listed as an app on start up. Needless to say I won't be purchasing any LG products in the future. As an aside, several years ago my wife purchased an LG cell phone and it was the most complicated, least intuitive phone I had ever used. So, we've not had good experiences with LG.

    Anyway, I hope you have good luck with your audio streaming issues. So far I've had good luck with my Roon Nucleus and it sounds great. No noise problems at all.
    Amplifier: Pass Labs INT 250 integrated.

    DAC/Streamer: MSB Discrete Dual Power Supply.

    Server: Roon Nucleus with lifetime subscription.

    Speakers: Harbeth Super HL 5+ 40th Anniversary
    Model.

    Cables: AudioQuest Rocket 88 speaker cables,
    Mackenzie interconnects.

    Speaker Stands: HiFi Man.

  6. #106

    Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrassphile View Post
    I recently had an issue that parallels the OP's. It involved a 3 year/old LG smart TV. We purchased the TV from a Walmart Store in my home town. It listed all the apps that the TV came with on the box. One of the apps it listed was Hulu.

    Fast forward to now, we decided that we wanted to activate the Hulu app after researching virtually every streaming app made. It was the only app that had almost all the channels and features we wanted. Our current carrier is a local (fiberoptic) cable provider.

    We knew the TV came with Hulu but when we tried activating the Hulu app nothing happened. To shorten a long story, the LG support tech told me that LG stopped supporting the Hulu app (at least for our particular model of LG smart TV). So, I have a TV that not only lists Hulu as an app, on the box. But it also appears as an app on the TV itself during start up.

    Evidently (according to the LG tech), LG discontinued support of the Hulu app on my specific LG model 08/2019. However, I was able to get Hulu on my LG smart TV using Chromecast and EZMira. We ended up not subscribing to Hulu as my wife's favorite channel was not one of those offered by Hulu.

    But I feel kind of ripped off by LG. The box showed Hulu as an app. Hulu was listed as an app on start up. Needless to say I won't be purchasing any LG products in the future. As an aside, several years ago my wife purchased an LG cell phone and it was the most complicated, least intuitive phone I had ever used. So, we've not had good experiences with LG.

    Anyway, I hope you have good luck with your audio streaming issues. So far I've had good luck with my Roon Nucleus and it sounds great. No noise problems at all.
    For less than $30 ($50 if you want 4K) you can buy an Amazon Fire Stick that you can connect to one of your HDMI connections on your TV. To use the Fire Stick you must have an active Amazon account. The Fire Stick gives you access to all kind of channels including Hulu. In fact, if I recall, it is compatible with Amazon Alexa and can work with voice commands. The GUI of the fire stick is much better than that of any TV and the apps are updated regularly.

    Another option is a Roku box. Works similarly to the Fire Stick but does not require Amazon subscription. The remote of the Roku is the most intuitive of any of these type of devices.

    I should have one of each non 4K versions laying around. (I switched to 4K and therefore don’t use them anymore). If interested in any one of those, send me a PM with your address and I will give them to you at no cost.

  7. #107
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    For less than $30 ($50 if you want 4K) you can buy an Amazon Fire Stick that you can connect to one of your HDMI connections on your TV. To use the Fire Stick you must have an active Amazon account. The Fire Stick gives you access to all kind of channels including Hulu. In fact, if I recall, it is compatible with Amazon Alexa and can work with voice commands. The GUI of the fire stick is much better than that of any TV and the apps are updated regularly.

    Another option is a Roku box. Works similarly to the Fire Stick but does not require Amazon subscription. The remote of the Roku is the most intuitive of any of these type of devices.

    I should have one of each non 4K versions laying around. (I switched to 4K and therefore don’t use them anymore). If interested in any one of those, send me a PM with your address and I will give them to you at no cost.
    Thank you for the heads up on the Fire Stick. I'd read just a little about it but am not very familiar with it. I'll check it out. Thanks again.
    Amplifier: Pass Labs INT 250 integrated.

    DAC/Streamer: MSB Discrete Dual Power Supply.

    Server: Roon Nucleus with lifetime subscription.

    Speakers: Harbeth Super HL 5+ 40th Anniversary
    Model.

    Cables: AudioQuest Rocket 88 speaker cables,
    Mackenzie interconnects.

    Speaker Stands: HiFi Man.

  8. #108
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    I was at a manufacturer today who confirmed directly that they do not get their products back when they send them to ROON in New York for testing. Not a rumor. Fact. Can’t speak to what other manufacturers experiences are.

  9. #109
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Yup. And many are working on “hacks” as we speak as they are tired of the moving goal posts.

    Should get interesting.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, Esoteric, Estelon Loudspeakers, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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  10. #110
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Hasn't Aqua already gone in that direction?
    Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon DL-301 Mk II, Gold Note PH-10, Nuprime CDT-8, Auralic Aries G1, Aqua La Voce S3, Supratek Chardonnay, PS Audio BHK 250, Verity Otello, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Audio Envy IC's & PC's, Triode Wire Lab SC, PC's & USB , PS Audio Stellar P3, Timbernation rack

    Family Room - Oppo UDP-203, Teac NT505, Kinki Studio EX-M1+, Nola KO, (2) Rythmik F-12G, Wireworld SC & IC's, Neotech PC's, SurgeX SA-1810

    Travelers Rest, SC- Marantz HD-CD1, Auralic Aries, PSA Directstream Sr., Audia Flight FL Three S, Harbeth C7-ES3 (2) RSL Speedwoofers, PI Audio Uberbuss, Audio Sensibility IC's and SC's, Triode Wire Lab PC's.

  11. #111
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Hasn't Aqua already gone in that direction?
    Yup. Already got the hack.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, Esoteric, Estelon Loudspeakers, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  12. #112
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Smart guys at that company. Great sounding gear too. Need to try and hear the LinQ after the first of the year and I get the house in SC settled in.
    Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon DL-301 Mk II, Gold Note PH-10, Nuprime CDT-8, Auralic Aries G1, Aqua La Voce S3, Supratek Chardonnay, PS Audio BHK 250, Verity Otello, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Audio Envy IC's & PC's, Triode Wire Lab SC, PC's & USB , PS Audio Stellar P3, Timbernation rack

    Family Room - Oppo UDP-203, Teac NT505, Kinki Studio EX-M1+, Nola KO, (2) Rythmik F-12G, Wireworld SC & IC's, Neotech PC's, SurgeX SA-1810

    Travelers Rest, SC- Marantz HD-CD1, Auralic Aries, PSA Directstream Sr., Audia Flight FL Three S, Harbeth C7-ES3 (2) RSL Speedwoofers, PI Audio Uberbuss, Audio Sensibility IC's and SC's, Triode Wire Lab PC's.

  13. #113
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Smart guys at that company. Great sounding gear too. Need to try and hear the LinQ after the first of the year and I get the house in SC settled in.
    I have ordered 5 and all sold before I got them!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, Esoteric, Estelon Loudspeakers, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  14. #114
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    It seems like they hit a home run with this one and the elimination of USB is kind appealing. So have you actually not got to even set one up in the store for a listen?
    Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon DL-301 Mk II, Gold Note PH-10, Nuprime CDT-8, Auralic Aries G1, Aqua La Voce S3, Supratek Chardonnay, PS Audio BHK 250, Verity Otello, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Audio Envy IC's & PC's, Triode Wire Lab SC, PC's & USB , PS Audio Stellar P3, Timbernation rack

    Family Room - Oppo UDP-203, Teac NT505, Kinki Studio EX-M1+, Nola KO, (2) Rythmik F-12G, Wireworld SC & IC's, Neotech PC's, SurgeX SA-1810

    Travelers Rest, SC- Marantz HD-CD1, Auralic Aries, PSA Directstream Sr., Audia Flight FL Three S, Harbeth C7-ES3 (2) RSL Speedwoofers, PI Audio Uberbuss, Audio Sensibility IC's and SC's, Triode Wire Lab PC's.

  15. #115
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Smart guys at that company. Great sounding gear too. Need to try and hear the LinQ after the first of the year and I get the house in SC settled in.
    I have ordered 5 and all sold before I got them!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, Esoteric, Estelon Loudspeakers, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  16. #116

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
    I was at a manufacturer today who confirmed directly that they do not get their products back when they send them to ROON in New York for testing. Not a rumor. Fact. Can’t speak to what other manufacturers experiences are.
    I thought it was understood that Roon would keep the products sent in for certification. Is that not the case?
    Anthony
    Analog: VPI CLASSIC 3/Ortofon A95> ASR Basis Exclusive HV---->

    Digital: Antipodes CX> CARY DMS-600 DAC/Streamer---->
    ...........Cary 306 SACD PRO Disc Player---->

    ===> Cary SLP-05 (Ultimate Upgrade edition)----> Clayton M-300----> MARTIN LOGAN SPIRES

    [Synergistic Research/Furutech/Blue Circle/SRA/Adona/ Stillpoints/Track Audio/GIK Acoustics]

  17. #117
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
    I was at a manufacturer today who confirmed directly that they do not get their products back when they send them to ROON in New York for testing. Not a rumor. Fact. Can’t speak to what other manufacturers experiences are.
    Post #31
    Peter Lie
    LUMIN Firmware Lead

  18. #118

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
    I was at a manufacturer today who confirmed directly that they do not get their products back when they send them to ROON in New York for testing. Not a rumor. Fact. Can’t speak to what other manufacturers experiences are.
    Here is Post #31 from wklie.

    Quote Originally Posted by wklie View Post
    There's nothing secretive about that. It's in a public list.
    Roon Knowledge Base - Partner Devices Matrix

  19. #119
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    If more manufacturers adopt this hack, I suspect it may trigger a response from Roon Labs to address it in the future.
    Peter Lie
    LUMIN Firmware Lead

  20. #120
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    I also suspect it would be illegal. I assume that they would not advertised that they are Roon compatible because I am sure that would trigger a law suit.

    As a software developer I really do not like hackers. If you do not want to use Roon, fine don't use it, but hack software in 100% unacceptable. They have every right to both control and protect their product. If a manufacture does not want to abide by that, fine, make you own system.
    Amps: Hattor Passive Pre, Hattor Tube Active Stage, Bel Canto REF500S, T+A AMP 8, McIntosh MC754, Bryston BHA-1
    Vinyl: Rega RP8 w/Rega Neo PSU, Rega Ania Pro, Moon 310LP, Hexmat Yellow Bird, Record Doctor VI
    Digital: Falcon Northwest PC Server, T+A DAC 8 DSD, W4S Recovery, Roon & HQPlayer
    Transducers: Magnepan MG .7's w/Magna Riser Stands, Rythmik L12's (x2), B&W MM-1's, Abyss Diana Phi's
    Other: McIntosh MR7083, Oppo BDP105, AudioQuest Niagara 1000

  21. #121
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    No idea what Post #31 is as I have no easy way of knowing which it is on my phone.(I am not counting posts)

    My input was in response to being accused of throwing out a rumor in an earlier post. I just wanted to confirm what I had heard was indeed true and not a rumor.

    They must have a big room somewhere in NY where they test/certify products.

  22. #122
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    If Roon does respond to the unauthorized workarounds to Roon Certification, which they kind of need to do, I expect it to increase costs and complexity for the legitimate authorized manufacturers and to also possibly create problems that may result in older devices becoming unsupported or requiring firmware updates. If Roon fails to address this, their ecosystem will be harmed.

    I feel compelled to call this out so that people understand there can be significant negatives due to the creation of unauthorized solutions.
    Neko Audio
    Authorized Dealer: AC Infinity, Acoustic Zen, APC, Audeze, Bryston, Devialet, Dirac, Elite HTS, Fortress Seating, JVC, LG, LUMIN, Magico, Ortofon, Prism Sound, RME, Samsung, STAX, Trinnov, & more.

  23. #123
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    Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by NekoAudio View Post
    If Roon does respond to the unauthorized workarounds to Roon Certification, which they kind of need to do, I expect it to increase costs and complexity for the legitimate authorized manufacturers and to also possibly create problems that may result in older devices becoming unsupported or requiring firmware updates. If Roon fails to address this, their ecosystem will be harmed.

    I feel compelled to call this out so that people understand there can be significant negatives due to the creation of unauthorized solutions.
    Yup. It’s a mess. You have clients who think they have bought a fully Roon certified solution and we (dealers & customers) are all learning at the same time:



    Ahhh...thank goodness for the great and free Lumin app (and Aurender app too!)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, Esoteric, Estelon Loudspeakers, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  24. #124
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
    No idea what Post #31 is as I have no easy way of knowing which it is on my phone.(I am not counting posts)
    That is a public list of devices that Roon keeps after certification, in support of (not against) what you said.
    Peter Lie
    LUMIN Firmware Lead

  25. #125
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    If these hacks require knowledge of how RAAT operates that is embedded in the Roon-licensed SDK then by definition it is theft of intellectual property. Very cut and dried. It will be very interesting to see what Roon’s response will be.
    Tom

    Audio:
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  26. #126
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Peter, Thank you for that clarification. I understand now. Craig

  27. #127
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Does not effect me since I don't need Roon to tell me what I have in my music library

  28. #128
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    To me (non Roon subscriber and no real interest in it - have seen and heard it and the interface is great) it seems to remind me what THX did. It was a bunch of specs which were required for certification. Onkyo got tired of it and then released receivers with 'Re EQ' (Cinema Re-Equalization) which did substantially the same thing. If they continue on their course and tighten things up, I think you'll eventually see a company or two do their own testing. If it happens with enough companies doing that, it won't be good for Roon at the end of the day. I think they need to take a step back and think of it from the perspective of manuafacturers and dealers.
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  29. #129
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Yup. It’s a mess. You have clients who think they have bought a fully Roon certified solution and we (dealers & customers) are all learning at the same time:

    Ahhh...thank goodness for the great and free Lumin app (and Aurender app too!)
    Well it pretty much proves that Roon is at the pinnacle when everyone wants to have the Roon logo on their products. That alone speaks volumes. Also knowing that Roon has always been willing to work with manufactures to me this sounds like manufactures either being cheap or lazy but then trying to take advantage of what Roon has built.

    If the other apps were as good then knowing how some people are they would be trying to steal them also... or trying to use it with their products. I could be wrong but are not the Lumin app and Aurender app for their specific hardware? Do people hack them to use them with other hardware? I would be surprised if they do, but I assume they don't (and since I have no knowledge in that I could be wrong ).

    However, any hack on any persons or companies intellectual property is wrong and honestly illegal. If a company wants the benefits of being Roon compatible then they are required to get certified. Roon does this for customer protection. If the company does't want to do this they have no right to try to gain the advantage of claiming Roon compatibility. It is the manufactures that are in the wrong, not Roon. Yes, as a customer you feel you should get what you paid for. Being able to use Roon with the product that you purchased believing it was Roon certified. Not getting that feels like you have been cheated and rightfully so. But be angry at the correct parties that are at fault and that is not Roon.

    Any hack is illegal and that alone would make me never again consider a product by a company that is willing to do this. They have proved themselves to being willing to cut corners and do unethical things. What would make me think they would not do the same in other areas in their manufacturing... lets say electrical safety regulations???
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  30. #130
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    Well it pretty much proves that Roon is at the pinnacle when everyone wants to have the Roon logo on their products. That alone speaks volumes. Also knowing that Roon has always been willing to work with manufactures to me this sounds like manufactures either being cheap or lazy but then trying to take advantage of what Roon has built.

    If the other apps were as good then knowing how some people are they would be trying to steal them also... or trying to use it with their products. I could be wrong but are not the Lumin app and Aurender app for their specific hardware? Do people hack them to use them with other hardware? I would be surprised if they do, but I assume they don't (and since I have no knowledge in that I could be wrong ).

    However, any hack on any persons or companies intellectual property is wrong and honestly illegal. If a company wants the benefits of being Roon compatible then they are required to get certified. Roon does this for customer protection. If the company does't want to do this they have no right to try to gain the advantage. It is the manufactures that are in the wrong, not Roon. Yes, as a customer you feel you should get what you paid for. Being able to use Roon with the product that you purchased believing it was Roon certified. Not getting that feels like you have been cheated and rightfully so. But be angry at the correct parties that are at fault and that is not Roon.

    Any hack is illegal and that alone would make me never again consider a product by a company that is willing to do this. They have proved themselves to being willing to cut corners and do unethical things. What would make me think they would not do the same in other areas in their manufacturing... lets say electrical safety regulations???
    The Lumin app can be used by many other vendors FOR FREE. Linn folks have abandoned the Linn app and now use the Lumin app as an example. Esoteric licensed with the good folks at Lumin for Lumin to make them an Esoteric version of the Lumin app.

    Agreed on the Roon app. They should pay to use it. But if you look at the hundreds and hundreds of “lesser known” brands out there, many from over seas, it’s going to be a challenge for the folks at Roon. The game of whack-a-mole comes to mind.
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  31. #131
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    The Lumin app can be used by many other vendors FOR FREE. Linn folks have abandoned the Linn app and now use the Lumin app as an example. Esoteric licensed with the good folks at Lumin for Lumin to make them an Esoteric version of the Lumin app.

    Agreed on the Roon app. They should pay to use it. But if you look at the hundreds and hundreds of “lesser known” brands out there, many from over seas, it’s going to be a challenge for the folks at Roon. The game of whack-a-mole comes to mind.
    Ok, there are a few companies using the Lumin app. Thanks for the info. So Roon may have a long road ahead protecting their intellectual property. It is too bad and we all know who will actually pay for it.

    If it were not for all of these scum bag pieces of shit trying to steal everything there would not be need for Roon and other companies to go to extra steps and expenses. We would also not need virus scanners, malware protection, constant updates... on and on and on. Sitting by and acting like it is ok is not good. Actually supporting these assholes by using their products is a lot worse, and these "customers", if they know it is hacked are culpable.

    We all pay for it; don't kid yourselves thinking we don't. I use legal copies of any software I use, and anybody who doesn't is part of the problem... I have some choice words for them that I will not print here.
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  32. #132
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    this has turned into a quite an interesting thread and i am really enjoying the discussion of roon's business model. here is my armchair, big-picture take:

    in the audiophile / high-end segment of the market roon has proven to be an extraordinarily disruptive company… with a roon subscription it is no longer a necessity for this market segment to adhere to any specific topology or to buy specialized audio equipment in order to play their locally stored or streamed music files... it is now a choice.

    basically, for $9.99 per month roon has provided subscribers the freedom to design and configure their file-based, digital back-end in any fashion that makes sense for them. these subscriber solutions can range from costless by simply installing roon on an existing computer and pointing it to a playback endpoint to costing many multiples of $10k by opting for bespoke servers, high-end streamers/transports, etc.

    furthermore, in creating a high-quality product with a great UI and UX they are the market leader and the de-facto go-to software — their brand awareness and recognition are high. realistically, any company wishing to sell digital playback hardware in meaningful unit quantities absolutely must take roon into account. and, for those companies wishing to have networked products this means becoming roon-certified. sure, its a PINTA and takes time + resources to do it right and, thereby, do right by their own customers.

    
so, roon is in a position to significantly influence not only the market for playback software but, more importantly for the discussion here, the market for playback hardware. from this perspective, it is easy to understand the discomfort of the entire hardware manufacturing/distribution chain. simply put, roon in empowering their customers has altered the trajectory of this market segment and, thereby, its economics …no wonder they are now a target.

    and, as they say: therein lies the rub.
    _________________________

    as some what of an aside: being someone knowledgeable about software development and having been involved in the ecosystem of early-stage, startup companies, roon is the poster-child for how to do things right. from identifying a large addressable market to executing on a plan to monetize the opportunity to being capital efficient to building market share and brand recognition to almost any metric relevant to the success of a start-up they have succeeded… wildly.

    their masterstroke was the release of ROCK which opened an almost limitless number of hardware options for roon subscribers. i view it as being as important to roon as was apple's decision in the early days of the iPhone to open up app development to third party companies and provide them with an SDK to build apps.

    and, if nothing else you have to admire this.
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  33. #133

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    The Lumin app can be used by many other vendors FOR FREE. Linn folks have abandoned the Linn app and now use the Lumin app as an example. Esoteric licensed with the good folks at Lumin for Lumin to make them an Esoteric version of the Lumin app.

    Agreed on the Roon app. They should pay to use it. But if you look at the hundreds and hundreds of “lesser known” brands out there, many from over seas, it’s going to be a challenge for the folks at Roon. The game of whack-a-mole comes to mind.
    Wouldn’t that also be true for Lumin with their app being available to 3rd parties?
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  34. #134
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by asindc View Post
    Wouldn’t that also be true for Lumin with their app being available to 3rd parties?
    Lumin allows others to use it. No complaints. They even encourage it!


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  35. #135
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by aKnyght View Post
    this has turned into a quite an interesting thread and i am really enjoying the discussion of roon's business model. here is my armchair, big-picture take:

    in the audiophile / high-end segment of the market roon has proven to be an extraordinarily disruptive company… with a roon subscription it is no longer a necessity for this market segment to adhere to any specific topology or to buy specialized audio equipment in order to play their locally stored or streamed music files... it is now a choice.

    basically, for $9.99 per month roon has provided subscribers the freedom to design and configure their file-based, digital back-end in any fashion that makes sense for them. these subscriber solutions can range from costless by simply installing roon on an existing computer and pointing it to a playback endpoint to costing many multiples of $10k by opting for bespoke servers, high-end streamers/transports, etc.

    furthermore, in creating a high-quality product with a great UI and UX they are the market leader and the de-facto go-to software — their brand awareness and recognition are high. realistically, any company wishing to sell digital playback hardware in meaningful unit quantities absolutely must take roon into account. and, for those companies wishing to have networked products this means becoming roon-certified. sure, its a PINTA and takes time + resources to do it right and, thereby, do right by their own customers.

    
so, roon is in a position to significantly influence not only the market for playback software but, more importantly for the discussion here, the market for playback hardware. from this perspective, it is easy to understand the discomfort of the entire hardware manufacturing/distribution chain. simply put, roon in empowering their customers has altered the trajectory of this market segment and, thereby, its economics …no wonder they are now a target.

    and, as they say: therein lies the rub.
    _________________________

    as some what of an aside: being someone knowledgeable about software development and having been involved in the ecosystem of early-stage, startup companies, roon is the poster-child for how to do things right. from identifying a large addressable market to executing on a plan to monetize the opportunity to being capital efficient to building market share and brand recognition to almost any metric relevant to the success of a start-up they have succeeded… wildly.

    their masterstroke was the release of ROCK which opened an almost limitless number of hardware options for roon subscribers. i view it as being as important to roon as was apple's decision in the early days of the iPhone to open up app development to third party companies and provide them with an SDK to build apps.

    and, if nothing else you have to admire this.

    I totally agree, but also remember they did not just jump into the market. They started by developing the Sooloos system for Meridian. After they fulfilled their contract with Meridian they went their separate way and started developing Roon. So they were not new comers to the industry.

    Initially offering the lifetime subscription to raise necessary start up capital, knowing full well that they were not wanting to do lifetime subs for the long haul. This is primarily the reason they raised the lifetime rate and will eventually eliminate it entirely (this was straight from one of the founders to me personally). They have done well and offer and excellent product that most people can use without issues. They are also attempting to make sure that all customers can use it. Their reasoning is very sound.

    The Apple example I guess is pertinent here even though I am not an Apple fan. Yes they allow and encourage third party development of apps, but remember also that any of those apps can only be sold in the Apple App Store and that Apple gets a relatively large percentage. Not unlike manufactures wanting to be part of the Roon eco system and gaining all of the advantageous that go with it. It does cost to be part of and gain advantages from the Roon environment. And that is only fair.
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  36. #136
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    We should start learning tomorrow if people log in here to say their DAC or streamer isn’t working.


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  37. #137
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    I totally agree, but also remember they did not just jump into the market. They started by developing the Sooloos system for Meridian. After they fulfilled their contract with Meridian they went their separate way and started developing Roon. So they were not new comers to the industry.
    sure, and microsoft (to use a perhaps more palatable computer analogy) was not the first operating system, but they did create software that could run on many different computers (i.e. the "ibm clones") ...my point is that companies that democratize their markets and disrupt entrenched business models and companies are usually the winners. hence, all the current industry ajida.

    with respect to ROCK, i don't think it's full impact has yet to be felt. my opinion is that ROCK opens up the avenue for sound quality concerned consumers to entirely bypass audiophile, high-end computer and networking hardware in favor of a now vastly larger universe of consumer grade products connected by fiber ethernet or an equivalent such as the MSB pro-ISL module.

    if one really wants to do a fair test of this theory, take a dac which has fiber input such as a lumin x1 or an MSB w/ pro-ISL and then feed it the exact same digital stream (no hardware or software specific upsampling, DSP, etc) from front ends that range from takio all the way down to a raspbery-Pi and then see if you can tell the difference. if you do hear one, it is in your head not your ears. think about it ...how would it be possible for a dac to convert the exact same digital stream, delivered free of all upstream electrical noise differently?

    ymmv, but i am happy to take all that dough saved on an audiophile upstream digital infrastructure and spend it on speakers, an amplifier or even a killer dinette set. herein lies the real value proposition of roon.

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  38. #138
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    We should start learning tomorrow if people log in here to say their DAC or streamer isn’t working.
    given that 1) roon announced this new policy with very short effect and 2) that roon has communicated the underlying issue with manufacturers for over a year, whom should they see about their now non-functioning networked roon endpoint?

    like you -- can't wait to see the show!!

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  39. #139
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by aKnyght View Post
    given that 1) roon announced this new policy with very short effect and 2) that roon has communicated the underlying issue with manufacturers for over a year, whom should they see about their now non-functioning networked roon endpoint?

    like you -- can't wait to see the show!!

    They should go straight to the manufacturer.


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  40. #140
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Agreed, I believe it is a manufactures issue, not Roon. It is not like Roon has hidden any of this to the manufactures.
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  41. #141
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Just a comment that reverse engineering is different than IP theft which is also different than unauthorized activity/communication.
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  42. #142
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    To legally reverse engineer you need virgin engineers (have never seen nor heard about the product). They are given a list of features that are required and told to create this. This is what Compaq did to create the IBM clone. The I/O chip set is the only thing IBM did not purchase off the shelf. Compaq had virgin engineers create an I/O chip that provided the same functions but certainly not the same chip or firmware construction, but it performed the same functions.

    This is not what hackers are doing. The are stealing code which is highly illegal.
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  43. #143
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    To legally reverse engineer you need virgin engineers (have never seen nor heard about the product). They are given a list of features that are required and told to create this. This is what Compaq did to create the IBM clone. The I/O chip set is the only thing IBM did not purchase off the shelf. Compaq had virgin engineers create an I/O chip that provided the same functions but certainly not the same chip or firmware construction, but it performed the same functions.

    This is not what hackers are doing. The are stealing code which is highly illegal.
    for those interested in this very topic, i can recommend the series halt and catch fire which i believe is now available on netfix -- a great dramatization of the software development and events surrounding the rise of silicon prairie. a very enjoyable binge!
    kanjiroba yak + roon rock > t+a dac8 dsd > almarro a318b > viking acoustics berlin r mk2 | alp-tone audio analog cables
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  44. #144

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfoot View Post
    Does not effect me since I don't need Roon to tell me what I have in my music library
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfoot View Post
    Does not effect me since I don't need Roon to tell me what I have in my music library
    Knowing what one has in their library is the easy part. What is difficult is finding the music one wants to listen to it promptly without wasting time looking for it! Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    I ripped my 500-600 CDs and saved them to a NAS drive. Using Qobuz, I added the digital version of my LP collection (several hundred LPs) to my library. I have also been adding hundreds of albums (from Qobuz) to my library.

    My Roon library now consists of all my ripped albums plus the ones added from Qobuz. Nearly 1,500 albums altogether.

    Roon combines all my music seamlessly in a single library. More importantly, I can find whatever I want in just a few seconds. Literally.

  45. #145

    Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    I see a similarity between what happened with different car manufacturers.

    Initially, each car manufacturer developed their own software for their fleet only to discover that Apple (car play) and Google (Android Auto) could do it much better. (I have not used my car navigation in years; I use Waze or Google Maps).

    Linn, Aurender, Sony, etc. they all have an app that they developed for their systems. And while those apps work, they are not as powerful or versatile as Roon. With Roon, you can mix and match products from many different brands (and price points) and they can all work together within the ecosystem. You can have an inexpensive Raspberry Pi Roon-Ready device (less than $100) and a pricey Trinnov 32 (over $35k) using the same GUI and all playing music simultaneously if one chooses to. Room also has two-way integration with Tidal and Qobuz (Sony, for example, does not connect to either of the two) and has library database management features that none of these apps can touch.

    No offense to Sony and others that spent time and money to develop their systems. But none of those products offer what Roon offers. Maybe it is no wonder that they are willing to give their software away.

  46. #146
    Senior Member
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    But several of them seem to offer better sound quality with less equipment hassle and expense. Many of us live quite happily with the software from Lumin, Aurender, Auralic and Innuous etc and see no need for the extra gear or software.
    Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon DL-301 Mk II, Gold Note PH-10, Nuprime CDT-8, Auralic Aries G1, Aqua La Voce S3, Supratek Chardonnay, PS Audio BHK 250, Verity Otello, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Audio Envy IC's & PC's, Triode Wire Lab SC, PC's & USB , PS Audio Stellar P3, Timbernation rack

    Family Room - Oppo UDP-203, Teac NT505, Kinki Studio EX-M1+, Nola KO, (2) Rythmik F-12G, Wireworld SC & IC's, Neotech PC's, SurgeX SA-1810

    Travelers Rest, SC- Marantz HD-CD1, Auralic Aries, PSA Directstream Sr., Audia Flight FL Three S, Harbeth C7-ES3 (2) RSL Speedwoofers, PI Audio Uberbuss, Audio Sensibility IC's and SC's, Triode Wire Lab PC's.

  47. #147
    Senior Member
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    Apr 2016
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    597

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    I am just curious - I know Innuous uses LMS for their player s/w. What does Lumin or Aurender use ? Is it home grown or some open source, like many manufacturers uses MPD/Alsa inside.

  48. #148
    Senior Member
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    Tallahassee, Florida
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Auralic, Lumin and Aurender use their own proprietary in house software.
    Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon DL-301 Mk II, Gold Note PH-10, Nuprime CDT-8, Auralic Aries G1, Aqua La Voce S3, Supratek Chardonnay, PS Audio BHK 250, Verity Otello, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Audio Envy IC's & PC's, Triode Wire Lab SC, PC's & USB , PS Audio Stellar P3, Timbernation rack

    Family Room - Oppo UDP-203, Teac NT505, Kinki Studio EX-M1+, Nola KO, (2) Rythmik F-12G, Wireworld SC & IC's, Neotech PC's, SurgeX SA-1810

    Travelers Rest, SC- Marantz HD-CD1, Auralic Aries, PSA Directstream Sr., Audia Flight FL Three S, Harbeth C7-ES3 (2) RSL Speedwoofers, PI Audio Uberbuss, Audio Sensibility IC's and SC's, Triode Wire Lab PC's.

  49. #149

    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    But several of them seem to offer better sound quality with less equipment hassle and expense. Many of us live quite happily with the software from Lumin, Aurender, Auralic and Innuous etc and see no need for the extra gear or software.
    Yes, but with all due respect, none of this software is Roon.

    To me it's like saying GIMP is as good as Photoshop.

  50. #150
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    Re: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    Yes, but with all due respect, none of this software is Roon.

    To me it's like saying GIMP is as good as Photoshop.
    Roon is indeed excellent for the UI and library management and its second to none. Not so much on the sound quality side. I haven't heard Auralic, Lumin or Aurender, so can't compare but I can definitely say that the Innuous player will beat Roon in terms of sound quality any day.

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